From wkt at cs.adfa.edu.au Tue Jan 4 08:58:41 2000 From: wkt at cs.adfa.edu.au (Warren Toomey) Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 09:58:41 +1100 (EST) Subject: New Version of Apout PDP-11 Emulator Message-ID: <200001032258.JAA01481@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Welcome back to all the PUPS mailing list members! They've finally turned our router back on here, so now the list server Minnie is no longer deaf. Over the past few weeks I've been working on my Apout simulator, with help from Tim Shoppa, and it now runs binaries from 1st Edition UNIX. The announcement is below; details of how to obtain the source, and some UNIX binaries, are also given. Hope you all had a good festive break, and best wishes for the New Year. Cheers, Warren Apout -- Simulate PDP-11 Unix a.out binaries Version 2.3 Alpha Warren Toomey wkt at cs.adfa.edu.au January 2000 Introduction ------------ This program is a user-level simulator for UNIX a.out binaries. Binaries for V1, V5, V6, V7, 2.9BSD and 2.11BSD can be run with this simulator. The user-mode PDP-11 instructions are simulated, and TRAP instructions are emulated by calling equivalent native-mode system calls. The advantages of an a.out simulator over a full-blown PDP-11 simulator are: + system calls can be done natively, thus speeding up execution + the simulator is less of a CPU-hog than a full-blown PDP-11 simulator + you don't need a simulated operating system or a simulated file system Apout can be obtained via anonymous ftp at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au in the directory pub/PDP-11/Sims/Apout. The directory pub/PDP-11/Sims/Apout/UnixBins contains tar archives of a.out binaries from several versions of UNIX. Status ------ The program is now at release 2.3 Alpha1. Most of the binaries from V5, V6 and V7 run fine. All of the V5/V6/V7 system calls are caught, but some are ignored and some generate EPERM errors. The V1, 2.9BSD and 2.11BSD environments are still under construction: see the file LIMITATIONS for details. Finally, the simulator won't run on a big-endian machine. Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA29223 for pups-liszt; Tue, 4 Jan 2000 10:43:10 +1100 (EST) From wkt at cs.adfa.edu.au Tue Jan 4 10:08:05 2000 From: wkt at cs.adfa.edu.au (Warren Toomey) Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 11:08:05 +1100 (EST) Subject: No Answer to `Unix Mallet' Mystery Message-ID: <200001040008.LAA03372@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Hi all, I just received this e-mail from Keith Bostic, in reply to a strange question which was discussed on this mailing list months (years?) ago. Read on..... ----- Forwarded message from Keith Bostic ----- Hi, Warren, I'm digging out some old email, and found the following: > [Chris] While looking over userland source, calendar(1)'s calendar.computer > mentions: > 08/14 First Unix-based mallet created, 1954 > Could someone please explain the joke. :) > > [Warren] I can't find it in V6/V7/2.11. According to the SCCS records on > Kirk McKusick's 4th CD, > /usr/src/usr.bin/calendar/calendars/calendar.computer was: > date and time created 89/11/27 14:10:01 by bostic > Mind you, this was obviously the first time it was checked into SCCS. > > The earliest calendar.computer files I can find, apart from the > SCCS record, are: > > 4bsd/43reno.vax/src.tar, calendar.computer dated 1989/11/28 > 4bsd/net2/net2.tar, calendar.computer dated 1989/11/28 > 4bsd/43reno.vax/usr.tar, calendar.computer dated 1990/07/29 > > so the finger of suspicion does point at Keith Bostic. I think I'm just the one that checked it in... around that time I went through the source tree and committed everything into SCCS, and, my bet is that those files weren't already under SCCS. I also broke the single calendar file up into a bunch of different files as part of re-writing calendar(1) to make it AT&T free. You might want to look in early releases for a "calendar" source file, and not "calendar.computer" (although I'm not positive it was named "calendar", I'm pretty sure that I broke an original file up into multiple files, so I created the "calendar.computer" file and filled it with stuff from an already existing file). > So can you shed any light on this interesting entry in calendar.computer, > was it a private joke, and were you the perpertrator? Not me. Did you ever figure out where the line came from? --keith ----- End of forwarded message from Keith Bostic ----- Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA29790 for pups-liszt; Tue, 4 Jan 2000 12:15:39 +1100 (EST) From wkt at cs.adfa.edu.au Tue Jan 4 11:40:19 2000 From: wkt at cs.adfa.edu.au (Warren Toomey) Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 12:40:19 +1100 (EST) Subject: 200 Ancient UNIX Licenses Message-ID: <200001040140.MAA04392@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Hi all, Just a note to say that I have received SCO Ancient UNIX licenses up to AU-201 in the mail today. Another note: a bug in the date libraries in 5th and 6th Edition Unix prevents ctime() from properly displaying dates after November 1999. I haven't bothered to find/fix it yet. Cheers, Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA32773 for pups-liszt; Tue, 4 Jan 2000 22:45:57 +1100 (EST) From norman at nose.cita.utoronto.ca Tue Jan 4 22:08:51 2000 From: norman at nose.cita.utoronto.ca (norman at nose.cita.utoronto.ca) Date: Tue, 04 Jan 2000 07:08:51 -0500 Subject: 200(0) Ancient UNIX Licenses Message-ID: <200001041145.WAA32766@minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au> Warren's note reminds me of a few other Y2K bugs I've spotted that affect ancient UNIX: - date: no way to set the date past 1999 unless in the present year, because two-digit input. - at and atrun: commands are stored in the spooling directory with names of the form YY.DDD.HHMM.xx, where xx is a unique number. This one is trickier to fix, because the filename is already exactly 14 characters, so there's no room for expansion. (On V10, I just rewrote the programs to use a simple UNIX time expressed as a decimal number. A simpler solution might be to print the year in hex.) - Perhaps least consequential and most amusing: nroff and troff store the year in a number register. The manual says it contains `the last two digits of the year,' and many macro packages assume that is true, but the truth is that it contains (year-1900), the same as tm_year. So, for example, when I ran man on New Year's Day, I was told that the manual page had been printed on 1/1/100. I was about to fix the various troff macro packages when I noticed that the manual implied that I shouldn't. I asked Brian Kernighan for an opinion (since the code and the manual were both last touched by him); he thinks the best view is that the manual is just wrong and the macro packages should be fixed. \n(yr is a read-write register, so `.nr yr \n(yr+1900' is probably the easiest fix, though Brian points out that it's not always the right one (maybe you really wanted a two-digit year). If anyone is interested I can pass along a more detailed note from Brian. Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA33653 for pups-liszt; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 02:17:48 +1100 (EST) From msokolov at meson.jpsystems.com Wed Jan 5 01:39:51 2000 From: msokolov at meson.jpsystems.com (Michael Sokolov) Date: Tue, 4 Jan 00 09:39:51 -0600 Subject: 200(0) Ancient UNIX Licenses In-Reply-To: <200001041145.WAA32766@minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au> Message-ID: <0001041539.AA12473@meson.jpsystems.com> norman at nose.cita.utoronto.ca wrote: > Warren's note reminds me of a few other Y2K bugs I've spotted that affect > ancient UNIX: ^^^^^^^ Would you please avoid that term? It is offensive to those for whom Kernighan/ Ritchie/Thompson/Berkeley UNIX is the primary and sole computing platform. Thank you. > - date: no way to set the date past 1999 unless in the present year, > because two-digit input. > - at and atrun: commands are stored in the spooling directory with names > of the form YY.DDD.HHMM.xx, where xx is a unique number. This one is > trickier to fix, because the filename is already exactly 14 characters, > so there's no room for expansion. (On V10, I just rewrote the programs > to use a simple UNIX time expressed as a decimal number. A simpler solution > might be to print the year in hex.) Both Y2K bugs have been fixed in the UNIX master source tree a couple of weeks ago, will appear on the 4.3-QJ0b tape. For details, send a subscription request to quasijarus-request at meson.jpsystems.com. > - Perhaps least consequential and most amusing: nroff and troff store the > year in a number register. The manual says it contains `the last two > digits of the year,' and many macro packages assume that is true, but the > truth is that it contains (year-1900), the same as tm_year. So, for example, > when I ran man on New Year's Day, I was told that the manual page had been > printed on 1/1/100. > > I was about to fix the various troff macro packages when I noticed that > the manual implied that I shouldn't. I asked Brian Kernighan for an opinion > (since the code and the manual were both last touched by him); he thinks the > best view is that the manual is just wrong and the macro packages should be > fixed. \n(yr is a read-write register, so `.nr yr \n(yr+1900' is probably > the easiest fix, though Brian points out that it's not always the right one > (maybe you really wanted a two-digit year). If anyone is interested I can > pass along a more detailed note from Brian. OK, haven't hit that one yet, will look. Please do pass along B. W. Kernighan's note. -- Michael Sokolov Harhan Computer Operation Facility Special Agent 615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY #4 International Free Computing Task Force DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA Phone: +1-214-824-7693 ARPA INET: msokolov at meson.jpsystems.com Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id DAA34078 for pups-liszt; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 03:27:07 +1100 (EST) From apg at execpc.com Wed Jan 5 02:46:07 2000 From: apg at execpc.com (A. P. Garcia) Date: 4 Jan 2000 16:46:07 -0000 Subject: that ancient old geezer stuff Message-ID: <20000104164607.201.qmail@playground.lan> norman at nose.cita.utoronto.ca wrote: >> Warren's note reminds me of a few other Y2K bugs I've spotted that affect >> ancient UNIX: msokolov at meson.jpsystems.com replied: > Would you please avoid that term? It is offensive to those for whom Kernighan/ > Ritchie/Thompson/Berkeley UNIX is the primary and sole computing platform. Interesting. It's true that the word ancient is generally pejorative in the context of computers. However, I think that this word may have helped persuade SCO to offer us licenses for these versions. The header of my license contains some wording like, "Special software license agreement for ancient unix source code." So I tend to use this terminology with an inside-joke kind of smirk on my face. These kernels are more elegant and pure in design than their descendants. If the good folks at SCO are having pleasant dreams, please don't disturb their sleep. > Please do pass along B. W. Kernighan's note. I second this request. Don't hold out on us. :-) From norman at nose.cita.utoronto.ca Wed Jan 5 09:32:03 2000 From: norman at nose.cita.utoronto.ca (norman at nose.cita.utoronto.ca) Date: Tue, 04 Jan 2000 18:32:03 -0500 Subject: 200(0) Ancient UNIX Licenses Message-ID: <200001042310.KAA35724@minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au> Here's Brian Kernighan's note on troff and Y2K: in n1.c, numtab[YR] is set to localtime()->tm_year, which is the number of years since 1900. in 2000, this will contain 100. the troff manual says that \n(yr contains "the last two digits of the current year", but nowhere in the code is this set, and the year can be set to anything. so it's really "the current year minus 1900". the manual and the code are inconsistent, which is always a problem. in any case, in most installations troff and nroff are legacy systems for which there is no source code, so changing them is not feasible. furthermore, any change to troff is likely to require changes in macro packages anyway, and may cause silent errors by conflicting with current behavior or colliding with previously unused names. fortunately, it seems straightforward to fix the macro packages that are the most likely sources of problem; individual macro packages will have to be fixed by individuals. grepping for "yr" will find most trouble spots. typical macros packages use \n(yr in two ways. one is ds ]W (printed \n(mo/\n(dy/\n(yr) which assumes that the year is 2 digits and to be printed as 2 digits. presumably the first day of 2000 is to be printed as 1/1/00, so the fix here is to set register yr to 2 digits .nr yr \n(yr%100 either once at the beginning (under the assumption that the year isn't changed by the macro package) or each time \n(yr is going to be used (providing locality at the price of more changes). the other common usage is .ds ]W \*(]m \n(dy, 19\n(yr the easiest way to fix this is to add, at the beginning again, .nr yr 1900+\n(yr and change all subsequent uses from 19\n(yr to \n(yr. any macro package that uses both of these constructions will need a bit more care to unify things; the easiest fix is likely to be two registers, one with the full year and one with the last two digits. .nr YR 1900+\n(yr \" 4-digit year .nr yr \n(yr%100 \" last two digits this will break code that happened to use this register name. some macro packages (e.g., -mm) try to be clever about dates, and include explicit tests to determine whether a user-provided date has 2 or 4 digits, and then adjust by 1900; this is another case that has to be fiddled by hand. any approach that changes register yr at the beginning fails if the year is set explicitly later on, as it might be by some of the date macros in -ms and -mm. this still seems like the best fix, however. Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA35876 for pups-liszt; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 10:35:21 +1100 (EST) From norman at nose.cita.utoronto.ca Wed Jan 5 09:56:48 2000 From: norman at nose.cita.utoronto.ca (norman at nose.cita.utoronto.ca) Date: Tue, 04 Jan 2000 18:56:48 -0500 Subject: 200(0) Ancient UNIX Ulcers Message-ID: <200001042334.KAA35866@minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au> Michael Sokolov grumbled: > Warren's note reminds me of a few other Y2K bugs I've spotted that affect > ancient UNIX: ^^^^^^^ Would you please avoid that term? It is offensive to those for whom Kernighan/ Ritchie/Thompson/Berkeley UNIX is the primary and sole computing platform. Thank you. If the shoe doesn't fit, feel free not to wear it. I certainly didn't have `Kernighan/Ritchie/Thompson/Berkeley UNIX' in mind; I rarely do, as I am much more interested in ancient systems. Chuckling all the way to the rest home, Norman Wilson Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA37886 for pups-liszt; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 20:13:04 +1100 (EST) From grog at lemis.com Wed Jan 5 19:33:12 2000 From: grog at lemis.com (Greg Lehey) Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 20:03:12 +1030 Subject: 200(0) Ancient UNIX Licenses In-Reply-To: <200001041145.WAA32766@minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au> References: <200001041145.WAA32766@minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au> Message-ID: <20000105200311.Y30038@freebie.lemis.com> On Tuesday, 4 January 2000 at 7:08:51 -0500, norman at nose.cita.utoronto.ca wrote: > Warren's note reminds me of a few other Y2K bugs I've spotted that affect > ancient UNIX: > - date: no way to set the date past 1999 unless in the present year, > because two-digit input. I didn't have any problem with 2.11BSD. I just supplied 00 for the year. Which release were you using? Greg -- Finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA38658 for pups-liszt; Thu, 6 Jan 2000 00:03:32 +1100 (EST) From SHOPPA at trailing-edge.com Wed Jan 5 23:23:18 2000 From: SHOPPA at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 8:23:18 -0500 Subject: 200(0) Ancient UNIX Licenses Message-ID: <000105082318.202000b0@trailing-edge.com> Greg wrote: >On Tuesday, 4 January 2000 at 7:08:51 -0500, norman at nose.cita.utoronto.ca wrote: >> Warren's note reminds me of a few other Y2K bugs I've spotted that affect >> ancient UNIX: >> - date: no way to set the date past 1999 unless in the present year, >> because two-digit input. >I didn't have any problem with 2.11BSD. I just supplied 00 for the >year. Which release were you using? That's because I did the fix for 2.11BSD back when I was Y2K-ing all my PDP-11 sources a few years ago, and Steven incorporated it into the distribution. The fix was quick and dirty, but works fine because Unix effectively has an expiration date of 2038 when the signed 32-bit time word goes negative, so it's easy enough to window the centuries. This brings up a question: should fixes (and I mean fundamental fixes like Y2K ones) be incorporated back into the boot images in the archive, or should they be left in their "pristine" state? (Yes, i know, some of those boot images aren't quite so pristine.) As long as we're on the topic, which versions of Unix had the C compiler recognize when it was recompiling the kernel and put a back door in for the developers? And of course the C compiler recognized when it was recompiling itself and made sure that the this recognition code was also inserted. As I understand it, the distributed sources never had this security hole in them, only the binaries, but of course the binaries self-perpetuated the security hole even if you recompiled them. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa at trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA39019 for pups-liszt; Thu, 6 Jan 2000 01:30:17 +1100 (EST) From apg at execpc.com Thu Jan 6 00:46:13 2000 From: apg at execpc.com (A. P. Garcia) Date: 5 Jan 2000 14:46:13 -0000 Subject: 200(0) Ancient UNIX Licenses Message-ID: <20000105144613.450.qmail@playground.lan> > This brings up a question: should fixes (and I mean fundamental fixes > like Y2K ones) be incorporated back into the boot images in the archive, or > should they be left in their "pristine" state? (Yes, i know, some of > those boot images aren't quite so pristine.) Ideally, both. Perhaps boot images with these fixes should be available, yes, but so should the originals. > As long as we're on the topic, which versions of Unix had the C > compiler recognize when it was recompiling the kernel and put a back > door in for the developers? Good question! I don't know, but it was actually the login command... From wkt at cs.adfa.edu.au Thu Jan 6 06:35:23 2000 From: wkt at cs.adfa.edu.au (Warren Toomey) Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 07:35:23 +1100 (EST) Subject: Viral Unix Compiler In-Reply-To: <000105082318.202000b0@trailing-edge.com> from Tim Shoppa at "Jan 5, 2000 8:23:18 am" Message-ID: <200001052035.HAA24359@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> In article by Tim Shoppa: > This brings up a question: should fixes (and I mean fundamental fixes > like Y2K ones) be incorporated back into the boot images in the archive, or > should they be left in their "pristine" state? (Yes, i know, some of > those boot images aren't quite so pristine.) I'd agree to both. Mind you, once you start patching, where do you stop? We could bring V6 up to being POSIX compatible with an ANSI C compiler :-) Seriously, at one stage I did think of trying to check-in every version of UNIX we have into a single CVS repository. Problem is, files have moved around, and I want to leave gaps just in case we ever get the missing versions. > As long as we're on the topic, which versions of Unix had the C > compiler recognize when it was recompiling [/bin/login] and put a back > door in for the developers? I might ask Dennis for the details. From memory, the binaries never got out of the Labs, and it would have been around the time of V6. Also from memory, this was the topic of Ken's speech when he won the Turing award. I wonder if the article is lying around somewhere. Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id HAA41128 for pups-liszt; Thu, 6 Jan 2000 07:45:45 +1100 (EST) From luvisi at andru.sonoma.edu Thu Jan 6 07:01:27 2000 From: luvisi at andru.sonoma.edu (Andru Luvisi) Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 13:01:27 -0800 (PST) Subject: Viral Unix Compiler In-Reply-To: <200001052035.HAA24359@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Message-ID: On Thu, 6 Jan 2000, Warren Toomey wrote: [snip] > I might ask Dennis for the details. From memory, the binaries never got out > of the Labs, and it would have been around the time of V6. Also from memory, > this was the topic of Ken's speech when he won the Turing award. I wonder if > the article is lying around somewhere. http://www.acm.org/classics/sep95/ Andru -- -------------------------------------------------------------------------- | Andru Luvisi | http://libweb.sonoma.edu/ | | Programmer/Analyst | Library Resources Online | | Ruben Salazar Library |-----------------------------------------| | Sonoma State University | http://www.belleprovence.com/ | | luvisi at andru.sonoma.edu | Textile imports from Provence, France | -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA41348 for pups-liszt; Thu, 6 Jan 2000 08:14:17 +1100 (EST) From jcapp at wilkes.kp.net Thu Jan 6 07:33:48 2000 From: jcapp at wilkes.kp.net (J. Capp) Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 16:33:48 -0500 (EST) Subject: Viral Unix Compiler In-Reply-To: <200001052035.HAA24359@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Message-ID: On Thu, 6 Jan 2000, Warren Toomey wrote: > > I might ask Dennis for the details. From memory, the binaries never got out > of the Labs, and it would have been around the time of V6. Also from memory, > this was the topic of Ken's speech when he won the Turing award. I wonder if > the article is lying around somewhere. > Ken's speech "Reflections on Trusting Trust", was published in the Communication of the ACM, Vol. 27, No. 8, August 1984. It describes this "trojan horse" in great detail. But I do believe from this article that it was an example of what could be done, not necessarily something that was ever released into the hands of the public. Jim Capp Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA48149 for pups-liszt; Thu, 6 Jan 2000 20:09:45 +1100 (EST) From norman at nose.cita.utoronto.ca Thu Jan 6 19:08:52 2000 From: norman at nose.cita.utoronto.ca (norman at nose.cita.utoronto.ca) Date: Thu, 06 Jan 2000 04:08:52 -0500 Subject: revisionism Message-ID: <200001060909.UAA48145@minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au> Tim Shoppa: This brings up a question: should fixes (and I mean fundamental fixes like Y2K ones) be incorporated back into the boot images in the archive, or should they be left in their "pristine" state? (Yes, i know, some of those boot images aren't quite so pristine.) I would argue strongly that the archive should contain absolutely pure copies of any historic objects, whether they were proper distributions or just snapshots like most of the older boot images. It's important to preserve accurate, unbowdlerized history; that is part of what we should be doing. There's nothing wrong with keeping fixed-up versions too, but but they should be clearly distinguished from the historic originals. (Perhaps we could label them `ancient' and `primary platform'?) Even using a CVS repository somehow doesn't feel kosher to me, though that is probably silly as long as it is possible (and clear how) to extract the unimproved original, and as long as the very original distribution or dump tape or whatnot is kept around too so that future archaeologists have the right thing to study. Norman Wilson 684 Crawford Street, Toronto (Formerly 696 Crawford Street before a renumbering in the 1950s; I keep thinking of putting the old number up too.) Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA48301 for pups-liszt; Thu, 6 Jan 2000 20:35:35 +1100 (EST) From norman at nose.cita.utoronto.ca Thu Jan 6 19:34:51 2000 From: norman at nose.cita.utoronto.ca (norman at nose.cita.utoronto.ca) Date: Thu, 06 Jan 2000 04:34:51 -0500 Subject: Viral Unix Compiler Message-ID: <200001060935.UAA48295@minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au> So far as I know (from conversations with insiders in the past), no system was ever shipped out of Bell Labs with Ken's self-healing trojan horse in login and the C compiler. (For those who don't remember, both programs were involved: login buggered so that a secret string was always accepted as a valid password for any login; the compiler buggered to recognize when compiling login or itself, and reinsert the buggery. Hence one can remove the buggered sources, but as long as the binaries remain, so will the bugs.) Ken's Turing Award lecture doesn't say whether those programs were ever shipped to the public. He probably left it dangling on purpose, since the point he is trying to make is that it isn't just code you have to trust, but the programmer who wrote it; you cannot possibly know everything that's going on inside unless you created everything involved, including compilers and assemblers and the operating system. Dennis's Turing Award lecture in the same issue of CACM is worth re-reading too, especially for those who think that Open Source is a cure for the common cold or that it was invented in the 1990s or 1980s. Norman Wilson Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA48359 for pups-liszt; Thu, 6 Jan 2000 20:45:36 +1100 (EST) From wkt at cs.adfa.edu.au Thu Jan 6 19:45:17 2000 From: wkt at cs.adfa.edu.au (Warren Toomey) Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 20:45:17 +1100 (EST) Subject: CVS Repository for UNIX In-Reply-To: <200001060909.UAA48145@minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au> from "norman@nose.cita.utoronto.ca" at "Jan 6, 2000 4: 8:52 am" Message-ID: <200001060945.UAA35060@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> In article by norman at nose.cita.utoronto.ca: > I would argue strongly that the archive should contain absolutely pure > copies of any historic objects, whether they were proper distributions > or just snapshots like most of the older boot images. It's important > to preserve accurate, unbowdlerized history; that is part of what we > should be doing. I agree completely. > Even using a CVS repository somehow doesn't feel kosher to me, though > that is probably silly as long as it is possible (and clear how) to > extract the unimproved original, and as long as the very original > distribution or dump tape or whatnot is kept around too so that future > archaeologists have the right thing to study. With CVS you can tag releases, and so you can extract back from a known release. You can have branches at various points too, and also merge branches. However, it really needs a CVS guru to make it work properly. And, of course, when we get to BSD, we should bring the existing SCCS deltas into the CVS tree, too. The CVS idea can be someone else's project :-) Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA49218 for pups-liszt; Fri, 7 Jan 2000 00:17:14 +1100 (EST) From SHOPPA at trailing-edge.com Thu Jan 6 23:16:41 2000 From: SHOPPA at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 8:16:41 -0500 Subject: Viral Unix Compiler Message-ID: <000106081641.202001e1@trailing-edge.com> >So far as I know (from conversations with insiders in the past), no system >was ever shipped out of Bell Labs with Ken's self-healing trojan horse in >login and the C compiler. (For those who don't remember, both programs >were involved: login buggered so that a secret string was always accepted >as a valid password for any login; the compiler buggered to recognize when >compiling login or itself, and reinsert the buggery. Hence one can remove >the buggered sources, but as long as the binaries remain, so will the bugs.) > >Ken's Turing Award lecture doesn't say whether those programs were ever >shipped to the public. He probably left it dangling on purpose, since >the point he is trying to make is that it isn't just code you have to trust, >but the programmer who wrote it; you cannot possibly know everything that's >going on inside unless you created everything involved, including compilers >and assemblers and the operating system. Perhaps Ken went even further and distributed buggered binaries of 'od' as well (along with a 'cc' patch to re-insert the 'od' hole), so those attempting to hand disassemble the code to *check* for the existence of the security hole wouldn't find it. The 'cc+login' hole is nice, sweet, and self-consistent. Attempting to patch all the other tools to make it impossible to find these holes sounds incredibly more complicated. Maybe it was just the way Ken so clearly presented the "how to" lesson that makes anything I try to add onto it sound incredibly awkward. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa at trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA49497 for pups-liszt; Fri, 7 Jan 2000 01:25:03 +1100 (EST) From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Jan 7 00:23:43 2000 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Thu, 06 Jan 2000 08:23:43 -0600 Subject: Viral Unix Compiler In-Reply-To: <000106081641.202001e1@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000106082343.01638ec0@pc> Has it ever been independently established that this viral version of the compiler ever actually existed, or was this just a parable about viral code? - John From arno at usn.nl Fri Jan 7 06:37:26 2000 From: arno at usn.nl (Arno Griffioen) Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 21:37:26 +0100 (CET) Subject: Viral Unix Compiler In-Reply-To: <200001060935.UAA48295@minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au> from "norman@nose.cita.utoronto.ca" at "Jan 6, 2000 4:34:51 am" Message-ID: <200001062037.VAA06991@superluminal.usn.nl> > Dennis's Turing Award lecture in the same issue of CACM is worth re-reading too, > especially for those who think that Open Source is a cure for the common > cold or that it was invented in the 1990s or 1980s. Could you tell me which year/month this was? Perhaps it's in the ACM digital library and I can find it that way. Thanx! Bye, Arno. -- PSINetworks Europe Fax: +31-23-5699841 | One disk to rule them all, Siriusdreef 34 Tel: +31-23-5699840 | One disk to bind them, 2132WT Hoofddorp+--------------------------------+ One disk to hold the files The Netherlands | * Musical Interlude * | And in the darkness grind 'em ----------------+--------------------------------+------------------------------ We say Retribution, We say Vengeance is bliss, We say Revolution, With a Cast-Iron fist! (Megadeth, 'The Disintegrators') -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA51647 for pups-liszt; Fri, 7 Jan 2000 09:30:02 +1100 (EST) From grant.maizels at cogita.com.au Fri Jan 7 08:30:19 2000 From: grant.maizels at cogita.com.au (Grant Maizels) Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2000 09:30:19 +1100 Subject: Viral Unix Compiler Message-ID: <5AE253C4A378D011A0520000F830A87D5D26AC@sydnt4.syd.cogita.co.nz> >> Dennis's Turing Award lecture in the same issue of CACM is worth re-reading too, >> especially for those who think that Open Source is a cure for the common >> cold or that it was invented in the 1990s or 1980s. > Could you tell me which year/month this was? Perhaps it's in the ACM > digital library and I can find it that way. > > Thanx! > > Bye, Arno. > The URL is http://www.acm.org/classics/sep95/ so I suppose it is September 1995. Grant Maizels grant at maizels.nu Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA51689 for pups-liszt; Fri, 7 Jan 2000 09:33:16 +1100 (EST) From wkt at cs.adfa.edu.au Fri Jan 7 08:32:53 2000 From: wkt at cs.adfa.edu.au (Warren Toomey) Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2000 09:32:53 +1100 (EST) Subject: Viral Unix Compiler In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20000106082343.01638ec0@pc> from John Foust at "Jan 6, 2000 8:23:43 am" Message-ID: <200001062232.JAA38496@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> In article by John Foust: > > Has it ever been independently established that this viral > version of the compiler ever actually existed, or was this > just a parable about viral code? > > - John I've asked Dennis. I'll relay any replies. Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA51803 for pups-liszt; Fri, 7 Jan 2000 09:49:34 +1100 (EST) From norman at nose.cita.utoronto.ca Fri Jan 7 08:48:47 2000 From: norman at nose.cita.utoronto.ca (norman at nose.cita.utoronto.ca) Date: Thu, 06 Jan 2000 17:48:47 -0500 Subject: Viral Unix Compiler Message-ID: <200001062249.JAA51799@minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au> The original publication of the Ken and Dennis Turing Award lectures was in August 1984 CACM. I gather there may have been some sort of repeat a few years ago, but my CACM collection, like my UNIX collection, is on the ancient side, so I don't know about that. Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA52219 for pups-liszt; Fri, 7 Jan 2000 11:12:11 +1100 (EST) From jp at spektr.eu.org Fri Jan 7 10:11:12 2000 From: jp at spektr.eu.org (Jorgen Pehrson) Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2000 01:11:12 +0100 (CET) Subject: Viral Unix Compiler In-Reply-To: <5AE253C4A378D011A0520000F830A87D5D26AC@sydnt4.syd.cogita.co.nz> Message-ID: On Fri, 7 Jan 2000, Grant Maizels wrote: > > >> Dennis's Turing Award lecture in the same issue of CACM is worth > re-reading too, > >> especially for those who think that Open Source is a cure for the common > >> cold or that it was invented in the 1990s or 1980s. > > > Could you tell me which year/month this was? Perhaps it's in the ACM > > digital library and I can find it that way. > > > > Thanx! > > > > Bye, Arno. > > > > The URL is http://www.acm.org/classics/sep95/ so I suppose it is September > 1995. > > Grant Maizels > grant at maizels.nu If you check the first line on that web page, you'll notice that it says: "Reprinted from Communication of the ACM, Vol. 27, No. 8, August 1984, pp. 761-763. Copyright © 1984, Association for Computing Machinery, Inc." So I'll guess the original print date was August 8 1984. -- Jörgen Pehrson jp at spektr.eu.org http://spektr.eu.org/~jp/ ----------------------------------------------------------- "Bill Gates and Richard Stallman Meet in Airport; Thousands Killed in Resulting Explosion. News at 11." Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA53194 for pups-liszt; Fri, 7 Jan 2000 14:59:01 +1100 (EST) From grant.maizels at cogita.com.au Fri Jan 7 13:59:23 2000 From: grant.maizels at cogita.com.au (Grant Maizels) Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2000 14:59:23 +1100 Subject: Viral Unix Compiler Message-ID: <5AE253C4A378D011A0520000F830A87D5D26B1@sydnt4.syd.cogita.co.nz> Oops that was a bit careless of me. Grant -----Original Message----- From: Jorgen Pehrson [mailto:jp at spektr.eu.org] Sent: Friday, 7 January 2000 11:11 To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: RE: Viral Unix Compiler On Fri, 7 Jan 2000, Grant Maizels wrote: > > >> Dennis's Turing Award lecture in the same issue of CACM is worth > re-reading too, > >> especially for those who think that Open Source is a cure for the common > >> cold or that it was invented in the 1990s or 1980s. > > > Could you tell me which year/month this was? Perhaps it's in the ACM > > digital library and I can find it that way. > > > > Thanx! > > > > Bye, Arno. > > > > The URL is http://www.acm.org/classics/sep95/ so I suppose it is September > 1995. > > Grant Maizels > grant at maizels.nu If you check the first line on that web page, you'll notice that it says: "Reprinted from Communication of the ACM, Vol. 27, No. 8, August 1984, pp. 761-763. Copyright © 1984, Association for Computing Machinery, Inc." So I'll guess the original print date was August 8 1984. -- Jörgen Pehrson jp at spektr.eu.org http://spektr.eu.org/~jp/ ----------------------------------------------------------- "Bill Gates and Richard Stallman Meet in Airport; Thousands Killed in Resulting Explosion. News at 11." Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA54308 for pups-liszt; Fri, 7 Jan 2000 19:07:40 +1100 (EST) From bdc at world.std.com Fri Jan 7 18:07:03 2000 From: bdc at world.std.com (Brian D Chase) Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2000 00:07:03 -0800 Subject: Viral Unix Compiler In-Reply-To: <200001060935.UAA48295@minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au> Message-ID: On Thu, 6 Jan 2000 norman at nose.cita.utoronto.ca wrote: [...] > Dennis's Turing Award lecture in the same issue of CACM is worth > re-reading too, especially for those who think that Open Source is a > cure for the common cold or that it was invented in the 1990s or > 1980s. Well, I think the whole basis for Richard Stallman's formation of the FSF and the GNU project during the 1980's was to keep alive the inherently "Open Source" nature of the software created during preceding decades. I hope not many people actually believe that Open Source is new concept. My personal take on Stallman is that he's a little whacked, but I do respect him incredibly for the work he's done with through the FSF. I think the industry could very easily have gone the Shareware route of the PC world had the GNU project, and eventually Linux, not entered the scene. It's possible we'd still have been okay with Linux once FreeBSD and NetBSD became a reality, but I believe Linux's early appearance struck just at exactly the right moment -- just when the web was being born. There's an immense amount of work ahead, but at least we're maintaining our history... and hopefully some people are learning from it. -brian. --- Brian Chase | bdc at world.std.com | http://world.std.com/~bdc/ ----- It is good that the world has Internet, for the world can see living math done from the pouring of the concrete foundation all the way up to where the beautiful pictures are hung on the wall and the microwave is warming up cheese burritos. -- Archimedes Plutonium, 1995 From wkt at cs.adfa.edu.au Mon Jan 10 15:40:39 2000 From: wkt at cs.adfa.edu.au (Warren Toomey) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2000 16:40:39 +1100 (EST) Subject: Successful recompilation of last1120 C compiler Message-ID: <200001100540.QAA64928@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Hi All, With a lot of help from Norman Wilson, Tim Shoppa and Dennis Ritchie himself, I've been able to modify my Apout emulator to run the 2nd Edition UNIX C compiler binaries. Using these, I've been able to recompile the `last1120' C compiler described by Dennis on his web page at: http://cm.bell-labs.com/cm/cs/who/dmr/primevalC.html The new version of Apout, as always, is available at: ftp://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/pub/PDP-11/Sims/Apout/ I've also put the source code to the last1120 C compiler in UnixBins/ Soren also pointed out a code problem stopping compilation on NetBSD, which has been fixed. Cheers all, Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA74341 for pups-liszt; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 02:10:03 +1100 (EST) From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Tue Jan 11 01:08:33 2000 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2000 07:08:33 -0800 Subject: I need help rewriting the 2.11BSD bootblock... Message-ID: <13514475029.13.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> Problem as follows: I have a PDP-11/44, 2 DZ11s, a (currently nonfunctional) Emulex TC12 tape controller, a Pertec-type drive for that (known working), and a Viking UDT MSCP <> SCSI disk controller. Problem is, the Viking doesn't raise the RACMDI bit upon completion of a command because interrupts are off, so the boot loops forever. I tried taking out the test for RACMDI and just putting in delay loops, but that doesn't work. (The boot hangs later on trying to reset the controller. I dunno if the I/O went or not.) The controller and system are known good. I can put RT-11 back on the disk and it will run fine (excepting the date). I have a 200 meg SCSI-1 drive on there, it will get a 540 meg drive later. Anyway, I need to change the boot. I was told others had this problem too. I lack MSCP docs and don't really have the knowledge to do this. Can someone help me, or at least point me at someone who can? I'm more or less stuck for now. ------- From SHOPPA at trailing-edge.com Wed Jan 12 07:58:14 2000 From: SHOPPA at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 16:58:14 -0500 Subject: More USENIX tapes recovered Message-ID: <000111165814.202000b0@trailing-edge.com> On a recent expedition, I recovered some additional USENIX tapes: Usenix 83 Usenix 87 Usenix 88 Usenix 89 Now, none of these are as "classic" as the current Usenix tapes in the PUPS archive (by my searching, Usenix 77, 78, 79, 80, and 81.) Is there perhaps some other on-line archive out there that would be interested in copies of these tapes? My E-mails to various addresses on www.usenix.org so far have left me with the impression that they have no library of material older than 1993 and they have no interest in older material, though I strongly suspect that I'm talking with all the wrong people. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa at trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id DAA85888 for pups-liszt; Thu, 13 Jan 2000 03:04:56 +1100 (EST) From jcrosenberg at earthlink.net Thu Jan 13 02:03:04 2000 From: jcrosenberg at earthlink.net (John Rosenberg) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 11:03:04 -0500 Subject: New member References: <200001100540.QAA64928@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Message-ID: <003f01bf5d16$a0ccc020$c469fea9@home> Kind greetings, all. I am a new member of the Society, and have been delighted with the messages I have seen. Recently I came into posession of a MicroVAX 4000 series machine at an auction, and the question now is: What do I do with the darned thing? It was really a bargain I could not pass up; and I'm pretty sure that it is in entirely usable condition. (I still have to fully test it.) Suggesetions? I have no Web site to run, even if I did want to spend the money on the required infrastructure & maintenance. Much obliged in advance, and again, I am more than happy to have joined the Society. John Rosenberg 33 Pond Ave. #601 Brookline, MA 02445 617-277-7868 jcrosenberg at earthlink.net (generally preferred) Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id DAA86073 for pups-liszt; Thu, 13 Jan 2000 03:33:14 +1100 (EST) From msokolov at meson.jpsystems.com Thu Jan 13 02:31:19 2000 From: msokolov at meson.jpsystems.com (Michael Sokolov) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 00 10:31:19 -0600 Subject: New member In-Reply-To: <003f01bf5d16$a0ccc020$c469fea9@home> Message-ID: <0001121631.AA27623@meson.jpsystems.com> John Rosenberg wrote: > Recently I came into posession of a MicroVAX 4000 series machine at an > auction, and the question now is: What do I do with the darned thing? The right answer for you is the Quasijarus project. See its WWW page at: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/ The project has a mailing list to which I have already subscribed you. To post to the list, send to quasijarus at meson.jpsystems.com. If anyone else wants to subscribe, drop a line to quasijarus-request at meson.jpsystems.com. -- Michael Sokolov 2695 VILLA CREEK DR STE 240 Software Engineer DALLAS TX 75234-7329 USA JP Systems, Inc. Phone: +1-972-484-5432 x247 or +1-888-665-2460 x247 E-mail: msokolov at meson.jpsystems.com Fax: +1-972-484-4154 Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id DAA86111 for pups-liszt; Thu, 13 Jan 2000 03:36:54 +1100 (EST) From msokolov at meson.jpsystems.com Thu Jan 13 02:35:04 2000 From: msokolov at meson.jpsystems.com (Michael Sokolov) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 00 10:35:04 -0600 Subject: New member Message-ID: <0001121635.AA27632@meson.jpsystems.com> I just wrote: > [...] > -- > Michael Sokolov 2695 VILLA CREEK DR STE 240 > Software Engineer DALLAS TX 75234-7329 USA > JP Systems, Inc. Phone: +1-972-484-5432 x247 > or +1-888-665-2460 x247 > E-mail: msokolov at meson.jpsystems.com Fax: +1-972-484-4154 Argh! Used the wrong sig file again! Here is the right one: -- Michael Sokolov Harhan Computer Operation Facility Special Agent 615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY #4 International Free Computing Task Force DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA Phone: +1-214-824-7693 ARPA INET: msokolov at meson.jpsystems.com I guess I'll keep bumping into this one until I set up separate mail addresses for my two affiliations and subscribe to all lists from the right one... Sorry about that. From wkt at cs.adfa.edu.au Sat Jan 15 09:10:07 2000 From: wkt at cs.adfa.edu.au (Warren Toomey) Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2000 10:10:07 +1100 (EST) Subject: macro-11 for V7-Unix In-Reply-To: <387F7844.292A1DEC@fh-jena.de> from "Prof. Karl Kleine" at "Jan 14, 2000 8:25:56 pm" Message-ID: <200001142310.KAA06954@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> In article by Prof. Karl Kleine: > > Dear Warren, > > once upon a time, it was around 1981, I used a pdp11/45 with V7 > (I started my life with Unix with V6 in 1977/8), doing some research > in compilers, portability, dense code schemes for interpreters. > For that I used a port of DEC MACRO-11 to Unix. There was also > an associated linker and the package offered also Fortran, though > I didnt't use the latter. As far as I remember, this port was > done at Harvard and distributed to some academic sites. I was > at the University of Nijmegen, The Netherlands, at that time. > > I have the Supnik emulator to play with, and I wonder if this > macro-11 and linker is still somewhere around. I would love to > prepare a few examples for my lessons here (I'm a professor in > computer science these days, at the University of Applied Sciences > here in Jena). > > Any ideas? Might there be copies in yours archive? I would like > to know before I go through the motions of getting teh SCO source > licence and all that... > > Thanks for your help! > Karl Kleine Hi Karl, I think this came up on Usenet recently. No I don't know of a port of Macro-11 to Unix. I'll pass this on to our mailing list, just in case anybody knows of it. Cheers, Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA03424 for pups-liszt; Sat, 15 Jan 2000 11:53:18 +1100 (EST) From SHOPPA at trailing-edge.com Sat Jan 15 10:52:53 2000 From: SHOPPA at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 19:52:53 -0500 Subject: macro-11 for V7-Unix Message-ID: <000114195253.20200992@trailing-edge.com> >In article by Prof. Karl Kleine: >> once upon a time, it was around 1981, I used a pdp11/45 with V7 >> (I started my life with Unix with V6 in 1977/8), doing some research >> in compilers, portability, dense code schemes for interpreters. >> For that I used a port of DEC MACRO-11 to Unix. There was also >>... >> I have the Supnik emulator to play with, and I wonder if this >> macro-11 and linker is still somewhere around. I would love to >> prepare a few examples for my lessons here (I'm a professor in >Hi Karl, I think this came up on Usenet recently. No I don't know >of a port of Macro-11 to Unix. I'll pass this on to our mailing list, >just in case anybody knows of it. As the possibly only member of this list who still makes a living writing MACRO-11 code, I'm gonna take two shots at this: One possibility is the "as11" assembler from Xinu. It's a fairly portable PDP-11 assembler, but doesn't have all the real macro facilities of real Macro-11. You can find this at http://metalab.unc.edu/pub/academic/computer-science/history/pdp-11/xinu/unpacked/src/cmd/as11/ The other (and more likely) possibility is the "m11" macro package from Harvard, which *does* come with a linker ("l11") as Karl described. The full distribution is in the 2.11BSD source tree, at "/usr/src/new/m11". Here's the man page - look at the "NOTES" section near the bottom for the history. M11(1) M11(1) NAME m11 - Macro-11 assembler for UNIX SYNOPSIS m11 [ option1 option2 ... ] file1 file2 ... filen DESCRIPTION M11 assembles the concatenation of the specified files (file1, etc.) and terminates when an ``.end'' statement is encountered. The resulting object file is usually named filen.obj (see below). If a file argument, filei does not contain a ``.'' in its name, the file filei.m11 will be sought before filei itself. Options, if desired, may appear anywhere in the command, and are chosen from the following list. All options are interpreted before any files are read. -ls Produce an assembly listing and place in filen.lst -lt Produce an assembly listing on the standard output. -fl If coupled with the -ls or -lt directives, makes the listing have a shortened format. It is short hand for -nl:seq:loc:bin:bex:me:meb:ttm:toc:sym. -uc Simulate an initial .dsabl lc directive. Force all characters in macro definitions to be upper case. This flag makes lower-case handling in m11 compat able with the DEC Macro-11 assemblers. -um Force all characters in macro definitions to be upper case. This flag makes lower-case handling in this release of m11 compatable with previous ver sions of m11. -de Make all option choices needed to make assembly mimic DEC Macro-11. Implies (inter alia) the -uc flag. This includes the Johns Hopkins asm assem bler. -ha Make all option choices needed to make assembly mimic earlier (Harvard) releases of m11. This implies the -um flag. Default .psect and .csect attributes are set up in the funny Harvard way. -mx Produce a listing of the source program as it appears after macro expansion. Macro calls, condi tional directives and so on appear in the listing as comments. Listing appears on standard output. No machine code is generated or listed. This option is meant to correspond to the -E or -P options of the C compiler cc(1). -my Like -mx, except that macro calls and conditional directives do not show up in the listing. -10 Generate an error whenever op codes not in the PDP-11 ``standard instruction set'' are encoun tered. Programmers writing for a PDP 11/10 can catch instructions illegal for that machine by using this argument. -dp:args The default attributes for a .psect or unnamed .csect are redefined, using the colon-separated list args of valid .psect attributes. -da:args The default attributes for an .asect are redefined. -dp:c The default attributes for a named .csect are rede fined. -li:arglist Simulate an initial .list arglist directive. All .list and .nlist directives in the program text which attempt to change the settings established with the -li flag will be ignored. -nl:arglist Like -li:arglist, but for the .nlist directive. -en:arglist Similarly, for the .enabl directive. -ds:arglist Similarly, but for the .dsabl directive. -cr:arglist Produces a cross-reference listing. If the -ls option is also included, the cross-reference list ing will follow the assembly listing in filen.lst. References which are tagged with the symbol # are definitions. References tagged with * are destuc tive references: the value of the symbol or vari able in question is changed. Arglist consists of colon-separated keywords from the following set. The keywords may be prefix abbreviated: sym All user-defined symbols are indexed. mac All macro names are indexed. per All uses of permanent symbols - op codes, directives, etc - are indexed. pse All psect names are indexed. For compata bility with the RT-11 CREF program, the argument cse is synonymous with pse. err All errors are indexed. reg All register uses are indexed. If no arglist is specified the default sym:mac:err is used. In the listing page and line numbers for uses of symbols are followed by a # sign if the symbol is defined and by a * sign if the symbol is modified. -lp Same as -ls, but also spools filen.lst for printing upon completion. -no No object file is produced. This is useful for syntax checking or list producing. -xs:n Allots nK words of extra space for symbol table and macro storage. NOTE: This option is currently inoperative: m11 automatically allots core for its tables as needed. -xx Debug flag: generate all kinds of wierd hack flack. -ns No symbol table is included in the object file (thus ddt knows of no symbols from this assembly). -sx Make the symbol table contain ``local symbols'' as well as ordinary symbols. -u Treat form feed characters as spaces. This will make m11's idea of line numbers coincide with the UNIX text editors. Macro-11 statements containing imbedded form feed characters will be parsed dif ferently when the -u flag is in effect. -na:file Override the convention of using last name as file name. Instead, use names file.obj and file.lst for object and listing files. NOTES This implementation of Macro-11 is a distant hand-me down from an old DEC Macro-11 modified at Harvard University in the early 1970's. It is grubby with smudges by Brent Byer, F. J. Howard, Bob Bowering, and Jim Reeds. It does not implement keyword arguments such as are described in section 7.3.6 of the DEC manual. The .enabl abs option does not work. Listing control is by default .list ttm. Unlike earlier editions of m11 at UCB and at Harvard, it does treat immediate constants of floating point opera tions correctly: see the last paragraph of section 6.4.2 on the middle of page 6-27 of the DEC manual. M11 has several directives not described in the DEC manual. See the New UCB M11 Manual. The default attributes for .psects are different from those described in the DEC man ual, but may be changed by the -dp flag. The .enabl glb feature is implemented: undefined symbols are taken as undefined global externals. FILES /usr/share/misc/sysmac.smlsystem macro library (for .mcall directive) filen.xrf intermediate cross-reference temporary file lpr(1) spooler /usr/ucb/macxrf cross-reference post-processor SEE ALSO PDP-11 MACRO-11 Language Reference Manual , Digital Equip ment Corp. Order No. AA-5075A-TC, August 1977. New UCB M11 Manual , notional document by Jim Reeds. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa at trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From edgee at cyberpass.net Mon Jan 17 00:19:26 2000 From: edgee at cyberpass.net (Ed G.) Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2000 10:19:26 -0400 Subject: macro-11 for V7-Unix In-Reply-To: <200001142310.KAA06954@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> References: <387F7844.292A1DEC@fh-jena.de> from "Prof. Karl Kleine" at "Jan 14, 2000 8:25:56 pm" Message-ID: <200001161520.KAA10760@renoir.op.net> > > once upon a time, it was around 1981, I used a pdp11/45 with V7 > > (I started my life with Unix with V6 in 1977/8), doing some research > > in compilers, portability, dense code schemes for interpreters. > > For that I used a port of DEC MACRO-11 to Unix. There was also > > an associated linker and the package offered also Fortran, though > > I didnt't use the latter. As far as I remember, this port was > > done at Harvard and distributed to some academic sites. I was > > at the University of Nijmegen, The Netherlands, at that time. I'd suggest contacting Professor Harry Lewis at Harvard (lewis at harvard.edu). We used Macro-11 for Unix in his "Intro to Data Structures" course in 1980. Since Professor Lewis is now a dean, this may take some persistence on your part, but I remember Professor Lewis as a decent sort (though busy, even in 1980) and I'm sure he'd be willing to help once he knows who you are. BTW, I did verify that this was Macro-11 for Unix. After some rummaging I was able to find (wonder of wonders!) my old "HRSTS Macro; Macro-11 Second Edition; 1/5/76" manual complete with Unix man pages for 'macro', 'linkr' and 'libr.' Best of luck. Edgee PS: I've just read Tim Shoppa's post; the man pages contained in his email are identical to those in my manual (i.e., looks like you want m11). From joerg at begemot.org Tue Jan 18 07:38:14 2000 From: joerg at begemot.org (Joerg B. Micheel) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 10:38:14 +1300 Subject: macro-11 for V7-Unix In-Reply-To: <000114195253.20200992@trailing-edge.com>; from Tim Shoppa on Fri, Jan 14, 2000 at 07:52:53PM -0500 References: <000114195253.20200992@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <20000118103814.A11188@begemot.org> On Fri, Jan 14, 2000 at 07:52:53PM -0500, Tim Shoppa wrote: > As the possibly only member of this list who still makes a living writing > MACRO-11 code, I'm gonna take two shots at this: I believe the SEP RELAG-3 system (www.sep.de) is based on LSI-11, not sure it is written in assembler, though. Perhaps Torsten could tell ... Joerg -- Joerg B. Micheel Email: Begemot Computer Associates Phone: +64 7 8562148 40 Masters Avenue, Hillcrest Fax: +64 7 8562148 Hamilton, New Zealand Pager: +64 868 38222 Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA19013 for pups-liszt; Tue, 18 Jan 2000 16:18:09 +1100 (EST) From cdl at mpl.ucsd.edu Tue Jan 18 15:17:43 2000 From: cdl at mpl.ucsd.edu (Carl Lowenstein) Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 21:17:43 -0800 (PST) Subject: macro-11 for V7-Unix Message-ID: <200001180517.VAA04673@chiton.ucsd.edu> > From owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Fri Jan 14 17:09 PST 2000 > Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 19:52:53 -0500 > From: Tim Shoppa > To: PUPS at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au > Subject: Re: macro-11 for V7-Unix > > >In article by Prof. Karl Kleine: > >> once upon a time, it was around 1981, I used a pdp11/45 with V7 > >> (I started my life with Unix with V6 in 1977/8), doing some research > >> in compilers, portability, dense code schemes for interpreters. > >> For that I used a port of DEC MACRO-11 to Unix. There was also > >>... > >> I have the Supnik emulator to play with, and I wonder if this > >> macro-11 and linker is still somewhere around. I would love to > >> prepare a few examples for my lessons here (I'm a professor in > > >Hi Karl, I think this came up on Usenet recently. No I don't know > >of a port of Macro-11 to Unix. I'll pass this on to our mailing list, > >just in case anybody knows of it. > > As the possibly only member of this list who still makes a living writing > MACRO-11 code, I'm gonna take two shots at this: > > One possibility is the "as11" assembler from Xinu. It's a fairly portable > PDP-11 assembler, but doesn't have all the real macro facilities of > real Macro-11. You can find this at > > http://metalab.unc.edu/pub/academic/computer-science/history/pdp-11/xinu/unpacked/src/cmd/as11/ > > The other (and more likely) possibility is the "m11" macro package from > Harvard, which *does* come with a linker ("l11") as Karl described. The > full distribution is in the 2.11BSD source tree, at "/usr/src/new/m11". > > Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa at trailing-edge.com Let me toss in another possibility. Around that time (late 70's - early 80's) we (Marine Physical Lab) were running an RT-11 emulator on a couple of our PDP-11 Unix systems. Product of Human Computing Resources, as I remember. Once you can emulate RT-11, you can run all of its CUSPs: assembler, linker, Fortran, what have you. Assuming, of course, that you have appropriate licenses etc. We did it to get a reasonably capable Fortran compiler with our Unix. carl carl lowenstein marine physical lab u.c. san diego {decvax|ucbvax} !ucsd!mpl!cdl cdl at mpl.ucsd.edu clowenstein at ucsd.edu From jcrosenberg at earthlink.net Thu Jan 20 01:06:45 2000 From: jcrosenberg at earthlink.net (John Rosenberg) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 10:06:45 -0500 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?B?tVZBWA==?= Message-ID: <004801bf628e$d297b920$c469fea9@home> Please do not trash me on this one! I think that 4000 series µVAX is just a little more than I need. Would anyone care to swap this puppy for a table-top PDP-8 or PDP-11 of any sort? I have a working machine & keyboard; it wants your basic RGB with or without sync (i.e. sync on green). Whaddadya think? Happy new year! --JCR -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: smime.p7s Type: application/x-pkcs7-signature Size: 3321 bytes Desc: not available URL: From wkt at cs.adfa.edu.au Thu Jan 20 09:54:33 2000 From: wkt at cs.adfa.edu.au (Warren Toomey) Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 10:54:33 +1100 (EST) Subject: Recent PUPS Archive additions Message-ID: <200001192354.KAA40551@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Hi all, Several new things have arrived in the PUPS Archive, so I thought I'd pass on details of what and where. Tim Shoppa has found & recovered the tapes from the following Usenix conferences: 1983, 1987, 1988 and 1989. Their contents are now in Applications/Shoppa_Tapes in the archive. Dennis Ritchie has sent in two DECtape images, s1-bits and s2-bits. s2-bits dates from 1972, and contains several 1st Edition binaries and the binaries of an early C compiler. s1-bits is part of a disk image, but I've been able to recover some of its contents: some application source in both assembly and C. It seems to date from early 1973. Both tapes are in Distributions/research/1972_stuff in the archive. By using the C compiler binaries on s2-bits, I've been able to recompile the two primeval C compilers whose source is in Applications/Early_C_Compilers and which are described by Dennis on his web page at http://cm.bell-labs.com/who/dmr/primevalC.html Most recently, Dennis has also unearthed the on-line manual pages for 3rd and 4th Edition UNIX. They are in Distributions/research/Dennis_v3 and Distributions/research/Dennis_v3, respectively. It still looks like all kernel code before 5th Edition is gone, except for the nsys kernel code in Distributions/research/Dennis_v3 and a few bits on paper that Dennis has. Cheers, Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id EAA33093 for pups-liszt; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 04:31:59 +1100 (EST) From apg at execpc.com Fri Jan 21 03:25:39 2000 From: apg at execpc.com (A. P. Garcia) Date: 20 Jan 2000 17:25:39 -0000 Subject: CD-R request Message-ID: <20000120172539.477.qmail@playground.lan> > Several new things have arrived in the PUPS Archive, so I thought > I'd pass on details of what and where. Could someone please burn a new snapshot of the archive for me? I'm happy to compensate you, of course. Thanks, Phil Garcia Milwaukee, Wisconsin, USA From wkt at cs.adfa.edu.au Fri Jan 21 12:16:40 2000 From: wkt at cs.adfa.edu.au (Warren Toomey) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 13:16:40 +1100 (EST) Subject: Emulators In-Reply-To: <034201bf63ad$8ad414b0$5d01a8c0@p2350> from emanuel stiebler at "Jan 20, 2000 6:19:18 pm" Message-ID: <200001210216.NAA53527@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> In article by emanuel stiebler: > Hi, > Anybody here, who made some benchmarks of the different simulators (supnik, > apout, ...) > > What I'm looking for is something like: > supnik version xxx on pentium 2 350 MHz using linux, is xxx times faster > than a 11/73. > > cheers & thanks, > emanuel Here's my no-numbers-just-gut-feelings of the various PDP-11 emulators. John Wilson's Ersatz is probably the fastest; it's written in assembly code, and so gains a fair bit that way. Second would be the Begemot emulator. They've unrolled the instruction decode loop heavily, and that helps a lot. Bob Supnik's emulator would be the slowest of the three. However, it's still not that slow, may 1/3 the speed of Ersatz. Apout can't be compared to the above 3 emulators, because it doesn't emulate peripherals nor supervisor mode. User-mode instructions run at about the same speed as Supnik's emulator, but system calls are done by native code. The sole benchmark I have is: FreeBSD identifies my desktop box as Pentium II/Xeon/Celeron (348.93-MHz 686-class CPU). Using Apout, I can compile the 2.11BSD GENERIC kernel in 4 minutes 15 seconds. I'll try building Supnik and Begemot and getting comparative results. Last comment: all the simulators have strengths & shortcomings, and that applies not just to ease of use but also to CPU, I/O performance etc. You really have to try them all & find the one that suits you. Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA35744 for pups-liszt; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 13:44:42 +1100 (EST) From joerg at begemot.org Fri Jan 21 12:45:24 2000 From: joerg at begemot.org (Joerg B. Micheel) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 15:45:24 +1300 Subject: Emulators In-Reply-To: <200001210216.NAA53527@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>; from Warren Toomey on Fri, Jan 21, 2000 at 01:16:40PM +1100 References: <034201bf63ad$8ad414b0$5d01a8c0@p2350> <200001210216.NAA53527@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Message-ID: <20000121154524.A71774@begemot.org> On Fri, Jan 21, 2000 at 01:16:40PM +1100, Warren Toomey wrote: > In article by emanuel stiebler: > > Hi, > > Anybody here, who made some benchmarks of the different simulators (supnik, > > apout, ...) > > > > What I'm looking for is something like: > > supnik version xxx on pentium 2 350 MHz using linux, is xxx times faster > > than a 11/73. Us too! :-) The problem is that it doesn't scale that simple. Each and every instruction has the parsing overhead. Next comes execution overhead. You'll find that the parsing is pretty constant, no matter whether it is a NOP or some sophisticated MUL command. The execution speed varies heavily, very often it is alot faster than the original hardware. IO has seen a tremendous speedup, we can benefit here from todays hardware alot. Just remeber how long it took to get a prompt or echo when hitting the keyboard. As a result, the original feeling of the real machine is lost, very unfortunate. As a rough summary, simple commands do not improve (much), whereas everything complex speeds up with the emulator. Harti has done quite a bit of testing on different instructions and compared them to an LSI11/73 (KDJ11A). The emulator was run on a i486 at the time. Have a look at the p11 distribution, it should be in Tests somewhere. Regards, Joerg -- Joerg B. Micheel Email: Begemot Computer Associates Phone: +64 7 8562148 40 Masters Avenue, Hillcrest Fax: +64 7 8562148 Hamilton, New Zealand Pager: +64 868 38222 Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id DAA39169 for pups-liszt; Sat, 22 Jan 2000 03:08:07 +1100 (EST) From rdkeys at unity.ncsu.edu Sat Jan 22 02:07:37 2000 From: rdkeys at unity.ncsu.edu (rdkeys at unity.ncsu.edu) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 11:07:37 -0500 (EST) Subject: Anyone know what a Masscomp 5400 (54S-01) is? Message-ID: <200001211607.LAA12512@uni02du.unity.ncsu.edu> On a surplus junket, today, I ran across a 2 dollar chassis that was listed as a Masscomp 5400 (54S-01) computer. It looked rather like a DECish based thing with dual height cards, like some sort of laboratory digital aquisition machine. On the long-shot that it is some sort of PDP-11ish thing, anyone have any recollection or pointers to any info on that kind of a Masscomp machine? Thanks Bob Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id DAA42516 for pups-liszt; Sat, 22 Jan 2000 03:45:56 +1100 (EST) From tfb at cley.com Sat Jan 22 02:44:34 2000 From: tfb at cley.com (Tim Bradshaw) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 16:44:34 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Anyone know what a Masscomp 5400 (54S-01) is? In-Reply-To: <200001211607.LAA12512@uni02du.unity.ncsu.edu> References: <200001211607.LAA12512@uni02du.unity.ncsu.edu> Message-ID: <14472.36082.530024.331321@cley.com> * rdkeys wrote: > On a surplus junket, today, I ran across a 2 dollar chassis that was > listed as a Masscomp 5400 (54S-01) computer. It looked rather like > a DECish based thing with dual height cards, like some sort of laboratory > digital aquisition machine. On the long-shot that it is some sort of > PDP-11ish thing, anyone have any recollection or pointers to any info > on that kind of a Masscomp machine? Masscomps were 68k based machines, they had a whole bunch of stuff for real-time and data-acquistion type stuff. They ran something called RTU -- real-time Unix -- which was a weirdo sysv / BSD hybrid, not fun to use. If the 5400 is the machine I remember it's a 68020 machine but it may have a lot of cards for other stuff in. If it *is* the machine we had it was deeply unreliable. Masscomp got bought by someone else later on but I forget who, so they sometimes get badged as some other make. I would run away, fast. --tim From grog at lemis.com Sat Jan 22 13:36:55 2000 From: grog at lemis.com (Greg Lehey) Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2000 09:06:55 +0530 Subject: Anyone know what a Masscomp 5400 (54S-01) is? In-Reply-To: <14472.36082.530024.331321@cley.com>; from tfb@cley.com on Fri, Jan 21, 2000 at 04:44:34PM +0000 References: <200001211607.LAA12512@uni02du.unity.ncsu.edu> <14472.36082.530024.331321@cley.com> Message-ID: <20000122090655.B455@mojave.worldwide.lemis.com> On Friday, 21 January 2000 at 16:44:34 +0000, Tim Bradshaw wrote: > * rdkeys wrote: >> On a surplus junket, today, I ran across a 2 dollar chassis that was >> listed as a Masscomp 5400 (54S-01) computer. It looked rather like >> a DECish based thing with dual height cards, like some sort of laboratory >> digital aquisition machine. On the long-shot that it is some sort of >> PDP-11ish thing, anyone have any recollection or pointers to any info >> on that kind of a Masscomp machine? > > Masscomps were 68k based machines, they had a whole bunch of stuff for > real-time and data-acquistion type stuff. They ran something called > RTU -- real-time Unix -- which was a weirdo sysv / BSD hybrid, not fun > to use. If the 5400 is the machine I remember it's a 68020 machine > but it may have a lot of cards for other stuff in. If it *is* the > machine we had it was deeply unreliable. Masscomp got bought by > someone else later on but I forget who, so they sometimes get badged > as some other make. > > I would run away, fast. On the other hand, IIRC this was the machine which was the basis for the Egan/Teixeira (sp?) book on writing UNIX drivers. It might be amusing for that reason alone. If it's functional and you have the space, you probably won't regret the $2 you spend for it. Greg -- Finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers From jcrosenberg at earthlink.net Mon Jan 24 07:29:05 2000 From: jcrosenberg at earthlink.net (John Rosenberg) Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2000 16:29:05 -0500 Subject: Anyone know what a Masscomp 5400 (54S-01) is? References: <200001211607.LAA12512@uni02du.unity.ncsu.edu> <14472.36082.530024.331321@cley.com> Message-ID: <00c501bf65e8$e55600a0$c469fea9@home> Yeah, that's the machine/software. Terrible software, if an honest attempt no doubt. Belongs in the Computer Museum. (It's such a pain to use that I would not bother, that is.) ----- Original Message ----- From: Tim Bradshaw To: Cc: Sent: Friday, January 21, 2000 11:44 AM Subject: Re: Anyone know what a Masscomp 5400 (54S-01) is? > * rdkeys wrote: > > On a surplus junket, today, I ran across a 2 dollar chassis that was > > listed as a Masscomp 5400 (54S-01) computer. It looked rather like > > a DECish based thing with dual height cards, like some sort of laboratory > > digital aquisition machine. On the long-shot that it is some sort of > > PDP-11ish thing, anyone have any recollection or pointers to any info > > on that kind of a Masscomp machine? > > Masscomps were 68k based machines, they had a whole bunch of stuff for > real-time and data-acquistion type stuff. They ran something called > RTU -- real-time Unix -- which was a weirdo sysv / BSD hybrid, not fun > to use. If the 5400 is the machine I remember it's a 68020 machine > but it may have a lot of cards for other stuff in. If it *is* the > machine we had it was deeply unreliable. Masscomp got bought by > someone else later on but I forget who, so they sometimes get badged > as some other make. > > I would run away, fast. > > --tim > > -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: smime.p7s Type: application/x-pkcs7-signature Size: 3321 bytes Desc: not available URL: From apg at execpc.com Mon Jan 24 08:00:41 2000 From: apg at execpc.com (A. P. Garcia) Date: 23 Jan 2000 22:00:41 -0000 Subject: archive request Message-ID: <20000123220041.169.qmail@playground.lan> ping >From owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Thu Jan 20 22:31:56 2000 Date: 20 Jan 2000 17:25:39 -0000 From: "A. P. Garcia" To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: CD-R request > Several new things have arrived in the PUPS Archive, so I thought > I'd pass on details of what and where. Could someone please burn a new snapshot of the archive for me? I'm happy to compensate you, of course. Thanks, Phil Garcia Milwaukee, Wisconsin, USA Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA01223 for pups-liszt; Mon, 24 Jan 2000 15:48:16 +1100 (EST) From achupahi at uic.rsu.ru Sat Jan 22 19:26:17 2000 From: achupahi at uic.rsu.ru (Alexey Chupahin) Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2000 12:26:17 +0300 Subject: Y2k for Unix References: <200001210318.OAA54327@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Message-ID: <388977B9.34055CD2@uic.rnd.runnet.ru> Hello Warren, I make date2 program now for BSD and Venix. I just send it for you. This is not best program, only Beta version. Please note me if you find bugs. To working, it calculates JD time, so algorithm is not best, it requires floating instructions. JD time is very useful for Astronomicals (my second hobby is Astronomy). Other thing - ctime use local time, while stime Grinvich time, if I remember. So you may need to add a number of hours to into the source string to see exact time you entered: Time=Time*3600L*24 + (hour+4)*3600L + minutes*60 + sec; ^ Venix was partically Y2k. I test "find" command with date2 and find (sillogizme!) it fine.:-). Seems, Venix with new date2 is full Y2k now. But BSD and other systems may have a number of non Y2k utilites. I don't like BSD's ls program for example. It seems work correctly, but I wish to test it again. The one way is to copy executable ls from Venix, it works fine on BSD or other way - I may fix ls sources and recompile it. I'm making Y2k features ( that is hardly then for Unix ) for DEC RT-11. To make this, I use better algorithm to calculate time and better interface, and if you are interested, I'll port it to Unix too. I'd like to port Y2k features into Unix 6,7 ,but unfortunatly, it is very difficult to use "ed" for me. :-) And I don't know how to put files into Unix 6 RL disk - it hasn't "tar". May be, we can do well-organized work to prepeare old Unix system to use in 21Centure? We can make full test all utilites for all versions and fix bugs to make Unixes as Y2k ready-to-use systems? Alexey P.S. I send you date2.c - sources and executable date2 for BSD and Venix both. To use it, one can copy date2 into /usr/bin or replace old standard unuseful /bin/date Usage: $date2 year month day [hour min [sec]] for example: $date 2000 1 22 12 15 ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ year month day hour min date2 without arguments prints date and time. -- IC~XC NI~KA +------------------------+ | "I WAS living, | | I AM living and | | I WILL BE living!" | | | | DEC PDP-11... | +------------------------+ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Date2 Type: application/octet-stream Size: 9110 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- /* Y2k date program for all Unix systems V0.2.2000, beta version. (c) Alex Chupakhin, 17-Jun-2000 tested on Venix, 2BSD Next better version will comes soon. */ #include main(argc,argv) int argc; char **argv; { int year,month,day,hour,minutes,sec; long mjd(); long Time,time(); char *ctime(); if (argc==1) { Time=time(); printf("%s",ctime(&Time) ); exit(); } if (argc<4) { printf("Y2k date\nusage\n%s year month day [hour min] [sec]\n", argv[0]);exit(); } year =atoi(argv[1]); month=atoi(argv[2]); day =atoi(argv[3]); if(argc>=6) { hour = atoi(argv[4]); minutes= atoi(argv[5]); } if(argc==7) sec = atoi(argv[6]); Time = mjd(year,month,day)-mjd(1970,1,1); Time = Time*3600L*24 + (hour+4)*3600L + minutes*60 + sec; printf("%sJD=%D\n",ctime(&Time),mjd(year,month,day)); stime(&Time); } long mjd(y,m,d) int y,m,d; { long a,a4,e,c,b; if(m<=2) { y--; m+=12; } a=(long) y/100; a4=a/4; b=2-a+a4; c = (long) (365.25*y); e = (long) (30.6001*(m+1)); return ( c+e+b+d+1720994L ); } From wkt at cs.adfa.edu.au Wed Jan 26 10:52:28 2000 From: wkt at cs.adfa.edu.au (Warren Toomey) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 11:52:28 +1100 (EST) Subject: More Mail from Alexey: anohrt Unix for Pro350 Message-ID: <200001260052.LAA08670@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Hi all, I've received another e-mail from Alexey about some Y2K software for Venix and 2BSD. He's also given me a copy of a Russian UNIX called Demos. This is based on something like V7M, but Alexey says that its better than Venix. I've only got a tar file with bins & src, no disk images. Anyone with a pro350 or 380 interested in looking at this? Anyway, here's his latest e-mail and Date.c. Warren From: Alexey Chupahin Hello Warren, I just receive letter from John Rosenberg. He recommended me to resend date2 program. May be, my previous letter didn't go to you, but to John? I just try to resend you date2. The Date2 is good for first. Now I'm hacking RT-11 DIR (analogue ls in Unix :-), unlike to Unix one, DIR is very bad for Y2k.) program with system library SYSLIB.OBJ. When I finish it, I just try to test and fix BSD system. Unfortunatly, I haven't any documents described BSD library with utilites to see what subroutines/utilites to be needed to fix. May be, I can find it on the Web? But I have documentation for Inmos (Russian version7). I use it to see in first time. Unlike to poor (but very good!) standard Version 7, Russian one has 2 screen editors, including vi, and one Russian multiscreen edit RED, editor like small MSWord for Pro, screen menu-making/control programs and library, graphic, bisness programs and libraries for Pro. Unfortunatly, I have only documentation, no any distributive... When I finish BSD ( I hope to will finish it soon ) I'll just go to Unix7 and 6. I've got it from your site yet, Version 7 is booted Ok... May be, vi from BSD still works in Unix7? > Also, I am still not sure what to do about Demos. It's a pity that > you don't have a bootable disk image for it. Ok... Demos was very good-organized Unix for Pro-350/380... more good then Inmos, how I'm hear... Unfortunatly, I'm not rich student, but I wish to small used Alpha for a long time. I find ready to use Multia in Moscow for 450$. In Russia we have a nearly 18$ per month (Crysis :-( ) I have 360$ yet. May be, anybody can help me for 90$... ;-) regards, Alex -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Date2.c Type: *unknown*/x-csh Size: 1025 bytes Desc: Date2.c URL: From grog at lemis.com Thu Jan 27 10:33:21 2000 From: grog at lemis.com (Greg Lehey) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 11:03:21 +1030 Subject: Sun release source code for Solaris 8 Message-ID: <20000127110321.I53307@freebie.lemis.com> Sun's releasing the source code to Solaris. Take a look at http://www.sun.com/software/solaris/source/index.html for more details. The conditions look rather like the SCO ancient UNIX licences, but it's *cheaper* ($75, which includes deliverables from Sun). Warren, is this ammunition to lobby SCO to drop the prices of Ancient UNIX licenses? Greg -- Finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA19237 for pups-liszt; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 12:08:01 +1100 (EST) From lennox at alcita.com Thu Jan 27 11:00:57 2000 From: lennox at alcita.com (Mirian Crzig Lennox) Date: 26 Jan 2000 20:00:57 -0500 Subject: Sun release source code for Solaris 8 In-Reply-To: Greg Lehey's message of "Thu, 27 Jan 2000 11:03:21 +1030" References: <20000127110321.I53307@freebie.lemis.com> Message-ID: Greg Lehey writes: > > The conditions look rather like the SCO ancient UNIX licences, but > it's *cheaper* ($75, which includes deliverables from Sun). Warren, > is this ammunition to lobby SCO to drop the prices of Ancient UNIX > licenses? After looking at the site, it seems as though Sun is trying to prevent licence holders from sharing code with other licence holders. If this is true, it would certainly make the Solaris licence less desirable to hobbyists than the ancient UNIX licence, unfortunately. --Mirian Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA19344 for pups-liszt; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 12:21:43 +1100 (EST) From joerg at begemot.org Thu Jan 27 11:23:07 2000 From: joerg at begemot.org (Joerg B. Micheel) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 14:23:07 +1300 Subject: Sun release source code for Solaris 8 In-Reply-To: ; from Mirian Crzig Lennox on Wed, Jan 26, 2000 at 08:00:57PM -0500 References: <20000127110321.I53307@freebie.lemis.com> Message-ID: <20000127142307.A98693@begemot.org> On Wed, Jan 26, 2000 at 08:00:57PM -0500, Mirian Crzig Lennox wrote: > Greg Lehey writes: > > > > The conditions look rather like the SCO ancient UNIX licences, but > > it's *cheaper* ($75, which includes deliverables from Sun). Warren, > > is this ammunition to lobby SCO to drop the prices of Ancient UNIX > > licenses? > > After looking at the site, it seems as though Sun is trying to prevent > licence holders from sharing code with other licence holders. If this > is true, it would certainly make the Solaris licence less desirable to > hobbyists than the ancient UNIX licence, unfortunately. You're right, as long as patches do contain portions of Solaris. Everything that does so has to funnel trough Sun first, this can be done by putting it onto their secure server. The restriction is that you can't share it freely, everything must be visible to Sun. This is slightly different from the original educational license, which allowed sharing with peers bound by the same license conditions. I think, popularity of Solaris might rather be restricted by its performance. I have run Solaris x86 on my desktop for a while for evaluation purposes. I don't think you could tune it easily to become as fast as a regular Linux or *BSD system. Apart from that, it certainly is the dinosaur solution of the decade. Joerg -- Joerg B. Micheel Email: Begemot Computer Associates Phone: +64 7 8562148 40 Masters Avenue, Hillcrest Fax: +64 7 8562148 Hamilton, New Zealand Pager: +64 868 38222 Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA19380 for pups-liszt; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 12:25:03 +1100 (EST) From emu at ecubics.com Thu Jan 27 11:28:28 2000 From: emu at ecubics.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 18:28:28 -0700 Subject: Sun release source code for Solaris 8 References: <20000127110321.I53307@freebie.lemis.com> Message-ID: <01ea01bf6865$d7844a20$5d01a8c0@p2350> ---- Original Message ----- From: Mirian Crzig Lennox To: UNIX Heritage Society Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2000 18:00 Subject: Re: Sun release source code for Solaris 8 > Greg Lehey writes: > > > > The conditions look rather like the SCO ancient UNIX licences, but > > it's *cheaper* ($75, which includes deliverables from Sun). Warren, > > is this ammunition to lobby SCO to drop the prices of Ancient UNIX > > licenses? > > After looking at the site, it seems as though Sun is trying to prevent > licence holders from sharing code with other licence holders. If this > is true, it would certainly make the Solaris licence less desirable to > hobbyists than the ancient UNIX licence, unfortunately. They don't "prevent" it, it seems that it is always steered by/at SUN. >From the Webpage: > If you want to make your source code modifications available to other Solaris > source code licensees, you can do so by passing the changes back to Sun, and > Sun will then post them to a secure website that you and other registered users > may access. cheers, emanuel Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA19666 for pups-liszt; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 12:51:11 +1100 (EST) From sms at moe.2bsd.com Thu Jan 27 11:42:54 2000 From: sms at moe.2bsd.com (Steven M. Schultz) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 17:42:54 -0800 (PST) Subject: Sun release source code for Solaris 8 Message-ID: <200001270142.RAA00523@moe.2bsd.com> > From: "Joerg B. Micheel" > I think, popularity of Solaris might rather be restricted by its > performance. I have run Solaris x86 on my desktop for a while for Agreed. I have run Solaris (only up thru 2.6 though) in its "native" environment (Sun hardware) and even there the performance is not anything one would write home about. The difference between SunOS 4.1.x and Solaris 2.x is dramatic in favor on the older leaner system. I have not run Solarix x86 though but have heard from others (before this) that its performance is quite a bit less than a BSD* system. Steven Schultz sms at moe.2bsd.com Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA20265 for pups-liszt; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 15:28:36 +1100 (EST) From grog at lemis.com Thu Jan 27 14:27:36 2000 From: grog at lemis.com (Greg Lehey) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 14:57:36 +1030 Subject: Sun release source code for Solaris 8 In-Reply-To: References: <20000127110321.I53307@freebie.lemis.com> Message-ID: <20000127145736.Q53307@freebie.lemis.com> On Wednesday, 26 January 2000 at 20:00:57 -0500, Mirian Crzig Lennox wrote: > Greg Lehey writes: >> >> The conditions look rather like the SCO ancient UNIX licences, but >> it's *cheaper* ($75, which includes deliverables from Sun). Warren, >> is this ammunition to lobby SCO to drop the prices of Ancient UNIX >> licenses? > > After looking at the site, it seems as though Sun is trying to > prevent licence holders from sharing code with other licence > holders. I'm not 100% sure what they mean here. Nobody can stop you distributing software you wrote as long as it doesn't contain proprietary Sun code. You could do that with diffs. > If this is true, it would certainly make the Solaris licence less > desirable to hobbyists than the ancient UNIX licence, unfortunately. I think it is anyway. For hobby purposes, I'd much rather use either 4.4BSD (for modern usage) or one of the old UNIXes. Greg -- Finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA20252 for pups-liszt; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 15:26:27 +1100 (EST) From grog at lemis.com Thu Jan 27 14:26:02 2000 From: grog at lemis.com (Greg Lehey) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 14:56:02 +1030 Subject: Sun release source code for Solaris 8 In-Reply-To: <200001270142.RAA00523@moe.2bsd.com> References: <200001270142.RAA00523@moe.2bsd.com> Message-ID: <20000127145602.P53307@freebie.lemis.com> On Wednesday, 26 January 2000 at 17:42:54 -0800, Steven M. Schultz wrote: >> From: "Joerg B. Micheel" >> I think, popularity of Solaris might rather be restricted by its >> performance. I have run Solaris x86 on my desktop for a while for > > Agreed. I have run Solaris (only up thru 2.6 though) in its > "native" environment (Sun hardware) and even there the performance > is not anything one would write home about. The difference between > SunOS 4.1.x and Solaris 2.x is dramatic in favor on the older leaner > system. That's my experience too, but it may not be typical. For a large system with a large number of processes (e.g. ftp server) the comparison could be very different. > I have not run Solarix x86 though but have heard from others (before > this) that its performance is quite a bit less than a BSD* system. Ditto. I have a CD somewhere that I just couldn't be bothered installing. Greg -- Finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA20540 for pups-liszt; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 16:03:31 +1100 (EST) From joerg at begemot.org Thu Jan 27 15:04:06 2000 From: joerg at begemot.org (Joerg B. Micheel) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 18:04:06 +1300 Subject: Sun release source code for Solaris 8 In-Reply-To: <20000127145602.P53307@freebie.lemis.com>; from Greg Lehey on Thu, Jan 27, 2000 at 02:56:02PM +1030 References: <200001270142.RAA00523@moe.2bsd.com> <20000127145602.P53307@freebie.lemis.com> Message-ID: <20000127180406.A574@begemot.org> On Thu, Jan 27, 2000 at 02:56:02PM +1030, Greg Lehey wrote: > On Wednesday, 26 January 2000 at 17:42:54 -0800, Steven M. Schultz wrote: > >> From: "Joerg B. Micheel" > >> I think, popularity of Solaris might rather be restricted by its > >> performance. I have run Solaris x86 on my desktop for a while for > > > > Agreed. I have run Solaris (only up thru 2.6 though) in its > > "native" environment (Sun hardware) and even there the performance > > is not anything one would write home about. The difference between > > SunOS 4.1.x and Solaris 2.x is dramatic in favor on the older leaner > > system. > > That's my experience too, but it may not be typical. For a large > system with a large number of processes (e.g. ftp server) the > comparison could be very different. That would make quite an interesting test. How much does ftp.cdrom.com gain by running FreeBSD instead of Solaris ? Joerg -- Joerg B. Micheel Email: Begemot Computer Associates Phone: +64 7 8562148 40 Masters Avenue, Hillcrest Fax: +64 7 8562148 Hamilton, New Zealand Pager: +64 868 38222 Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA20597 for pups-liszt; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 16:09:02 +1100 (EST) From grog at lemis.com Thu Jan 27 15:08:20 2000 From: grog at lemis.com (Greg Lehey) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 15:38:20 +1030 Subject: Sun release source code for Solaris 8 In-Reply-To: <20000127180406.A574@begemot.org> References: <200001270142.RAA00523@moe.2bsd.com> <20000127145602.P53307@freebie.lemis.com> <20000127180406.A574@begemot.org> Message-ID: <20000127153820.T53307@freebie.lemis.com> On Thursday, 27 January 2000 at 18:04:06 +1300, Joerg Micheel wrote: > On Thu, Jan 27, 2000 at 02:56:02PM +1030, Greg Lehey wrote: >> On Wednesday, 26 January 2000 at 17:42:54 -0800, Steven M. Schultz wrote: >>>> From: "Joerg B. Micheel" >>>> I think, popularity of Solaris might rather be restricted by its >>>> performance. I have run Solaris x86 on my desktop for a while for >>> >>> Agreed. I have run Solaris (only up thru 2.6 though) in its >>> "native" environment (Sun hardware) and even there the performance >>> is not anything one would write home about. The difference between >>> SunOS 4.1.x and Solaris 2.x is dramatic in favor on the older leaner >>> system. >> >> That's my experience too, but it may not be typical. For a large >> system with a large number of processes (e.g. ftp server) the >> comparison could be very different. > > That would make quite an interesting test. How much does > ftp.cdrom.com gain by running FreeBSD instead of Solaris ? Good question. My guess is that Solaris 2 just couldn't handle that many connections, but it compete reasonably well with fewer connections (say 1000). I'll copy the FreeBSD chat people and see what they think. For -chat: Sun have announced their intention to release the source code of Solaris [2.]8. We're discussing what this means. See http://www.sun.com/software/solaris/source/ for more details. Greg -- Finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA22317 for pups-liszt; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 00:02:40 +1100 (EST) From jcm at dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org Thu Jan 27 23:02:23 2000 From: jcm at dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (Jonathon McKitrick) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 13:02:23 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Sun release source code for Solaris 8 In-Reply-To: <20000127153820.T53307@freebie.lemis.com> Message-ID: Message too convoluted to tell who actually wrote this....but i believe Greg wrote the second group of lines.... >> That would make quite an interesting test. How much does >> ftp.cdrom.com gain by running FreeBSD instead of Solaris ? > >Good question. My guess is that Solaris 2 just couldn't handle that >many connections, but it compete reasonably well with fewer >connections (say 1000). I'll copy the FreeBSD chat people and see >what they think. Interestingly, i noticed recently that the response time on usa.net seemed much slower. It appears consistently so, either by ppp connection or by network/T1 line. A few months ago, netcraft showed that they were running FreeBSD. Guess what they are running now? Yup... SOlaris. I dropped them a line saying i noticed the speed difference. -=> jm <=- "I've done questionable things, also extraordinary things.... Revel in your time!" Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA22669 for pups-liszt; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 01:26:55 +1100 (EST) From tls at rek.tjls.com Fri Jan 28 00:26:41 2000 From: tls at rek.tjls.com (Thor Lancelot Simon) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 09:26:41 -0500 Subject: Sun release source code for Solaris 8 In-Reply-To: <20000127180406.A574@begemot.org>; from joerg@begemot.org on Thu, Jan 27, 2000 at 06:04:06PM +1300 References: <200001270142.RAA00523@moe.2bsd.com> <20000127145602.P53307@freebie.lemis.com> <20000127180406.A574@begemot.org> Message-ID: <20000127092641.A16017@rek.tjls.com> On Thu, Jan 27, 2000 at 06:04:06PM +1300, Joerg B. Micheel wrote: > On Thu, Jan 27, 2000 at 02:56:02PM +1030, Greg Lehey wrote: > > On Wednesday, 26 January 2000 at 17:42:54 -0800, Steven M. Schultz wrote: > > >> From: "Joerg B. Micheel" > > >> I think, popularity of Solaris might rather be restricted by its > > >> performance. I have run Solaris x86 on my desktop for a while for > > > > > > Agreed. I have run Solaris (only up thru 2.6 though) in its > > > "native" environment (Sun hardware) and even there the performance > > > is not anything one would write home about. The difference between > > > SunOS 4.1.x and Solaris 2.x is dramatic in favor on the older leaner > > > system. > > > > That's my experience too, but it may not be typical. For a large > > system with a large number of processes (e.g. ftp server) the > > comparison could be very different. > > That would make quite an interesting test. How much does ftp.cdrom.com > gain by running FreeBSD instead of Solaris ? How can anyone know that it gains anything at all? To begin with, it's never *run* Solaris, so there's no way to draw any kind of meaningful comparison. The dirty little secret of Linux and *BSD is that their ascendance has been tightly coupled to Sun's utter inability to build fast, cheap uniprocessor machines. Any way you slice it, a single-processor top-of- the-line x86 box is just going to be a *lot* faster and cheaper than Sun's entry-level multiprocessor. The great gamble they made was to turn their kernel into a highly-multithreaded thing of beauty -- but that *has* to cost some (even some small) amount of uniprocessor performance, and since they can't build cheap multiprocesors that are as fast as the high end of the commodity uniprocessor x86 boxes, for a lot of applications they lose. Even on a 2- or 4- processor machine, Solaris is demonstrably far faster than *BSD or Linux for many workloads. But you can buy a single-processor x86 that's cheaper than Sun's 2- or 4- processor box now, which is why people run Linux or FreeBSD or NetBSD. There is still a point at which the only way to get enough performance is to add more processors, and at that point Solaris still wins, and will for the forseeable (by me, at least) future. -- Thor Lancelot Simon tls at rek.tjls.com "And where do all these highways go, now that we are free?" Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA23125 for pups-liszt; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 02:53:03 +1100 (EST) From emu at ecubics.com Fri Jan 28 01:49:19 2000 From: emu at ecubics.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 08:49:19 -0700 Subject: Sun release source code for Solaris 8 References: <200001270142.RAA00523@moe.2bsd.com> <20000127145602.P53307@freebie.lemis.com> <20000127180406.A574@begemot.org> <20000127092641.A16017@rek.tjls.com> Message-ID: <002101bf68de$142f8430$5d01a8c0@p2350> ----- Original Message ----- From: Thor Lancelot Simon To: Joerg B. Micheel Cc: Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2000 07:26 Subject: Re: Sun release source code for Solaris 8 > The dirty little secret of Linux and *BSD is that their ascendance has > been tightly coupled to Sun's utter inability to build fast, cheap > uniprocessor machines. Any way you slice it, a single-processor top-of- > the-line x86 box is just going to be a *lot* faster and cheaper than > Sun's entry-level multiprocessor. The great gamble they made was to > turn their kernel into a highly-multithreaded thing of beauty -- but > that *has* to cost some (even some small) amount of uniprocessor > performance, and since they can't build cheap multiprocesors that are > as fast as the high end of the commodity uniprocessor x86 boxes, > for a lot of applications they lose. > > Even on a 2- or 4- processor machine, Solaris is demonstrably far > faster than *BSD or Linux for many workloads. But you can buy a > single-processor x86 that's cheaper than Sun's 2- or 4- processor > box now, which is why people run Linux or FreeBSD or NetBSD. There > is still a point at which the only way to get enough performance is > to add more processors, and at that point Solaris still wins, and > will for the forseeable (by me, at least) future. Another thing to mention is also, that it is very easy to build your own kernel, exctly for your needs in Linux or *BSD. (removing all emulations/compatibility modes, ...) so you get a nice small/fast kernel excactly for your type of machine & workload. Don't think it's so easy on a sun. cheers, emanuel Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id EAA23440 for pups-liszt; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 04:02:33 +1100 (EST) From lennox at alcita.com Fri Jan 28 02:55:30 2000 From: lennox at alcita.com (Mirian Crzig Lennox) Date: 27 Jan 2000 11:55:30 -0500 Subject: Sun release source code for Solaris 8 In-Reply-To: Greg Lehey's message of "Thu, 27 Jan 2000 14:57:36 +1030" References: <20000127110321.I53307@freebie.lemis.com> <20000127145736.Q53307@freebie.lemis.com> Message-ID: Greg Lehey writes: > > After looking at the site, it seems as though Sun is trying to > > prevent licence holders from sharing code with other licence > > holders. > > I'm not 100% sure what they mean here. Nobody can stop you > distributing software you wrote as long as it doesn't contain > proprietary Sun code. You could do that with diffs. Can I really? Any diffs are necessarily going to contain some of the original proprietary code. It depends on how aggressive Sun's lawyers are going to be about preventing any co-operative development of Solaris which is not mediated by Sun. From their website, it seems that Sun wants to be firmly in control of that process. This is in contrast to the Ancient UNIX licence, where it's my impression that SCO really doesn't care what you do with UNIX so long as you don't share code with unlicensed people. > > If this is true, it would certainly make the Solaris licence less > > desirable to hobbyists than the ancient UNIX licence, unfortunately. > > I think it is anyway. For hobby purposes, I'd much rather use either > 4.4BSD (for modern usage) or one of the old UNIXes. For practical purposes I agree, although I'm intrigued enough by the extremely modular design of Solaris to think it might be fun to spend some time playing with. -- Mirian Crzig Lennox Systems Anarchist Invest in America -- buy a Congressman! From jcrosenberg at earthlink.net Fri Jan 28 23:45:15 2000 From: jcrosenberg at earthlink.net (John Rosenberg) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 08:45:15 -0500 Subject: Sun release source code for Solaris 8 References: Message-ID: <002001bf6996$34389ec0$b439bfa8@home> I have written several device drivers (e.g., disk, DSP, DAT) for Solaris. It is the slowest OS since Multix. Solaris is buggy, albeit pretty darned stable. Interesting OS, but I'd stick by BSD (from a systems programmer type). ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jonathon McKitrick" To: "Greg Lehey" Cc: "Joerg B. Micheel" ; "Steven M. Schultz" ; ; "FreeBSD Chat" Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2000 8:02 AM Subject: Re: Sun release source code for Solaris 8 > > Message too convoluted to tell who actually wrote this....but i > believe Greg wrote the second group of lines.... > > >> That would make quite an interesting test. How much does > >> ftp.cdrom.com gain by running FreeBSD instead of Solaris ? > > > >Good question. My guess is that Solaris 2 just couldn't handle that > >many connections, but it compete reasonably well with fewer > >connections (say 1000). I'll copy the FreeBSD chat people and see > >what they think. > > Interestingly, i noticed recently that the response time on usa.net > seemed much slower. It appears consistently so, either by ppp > connection or by network/T1 line. A few months ago, netcraft showed > that they were running FreeBSD. Guess what they are running > now? Yup... SOlaris. I dropped them a line saying i noticed the speed > difference. > > -=> jm <=- > > "I've done questionable things, also extraordinary things.... > Revel in your time!" > > Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA28243 for pups-liszt; Sat, 29 Jan 2000 01:24:36 +1100 (EST) From jcm at dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org Sat Jan 29 00:24:19 2000 From: jcm at dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (Jonathon McKitrick) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 14:24:19 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Sun release source code for Solaris 8 In-Reply-To: <002001bf6996$34389ec0$b439bfa8@home> Message-ID: I'm a little concerned where all this leaves FreeBSD. If Solaris goes open source, or something similar, and tries to compete with w2k, plus linux is out there growing, and BeOS will be free soon.... FreeBSD might be a tough sell. Several guys i know say the majority of new unix installs are Linux with few BSD. They say the only BSD users that are growing are ISPs. Does anyone have any stats on how fast we are growing on the desktop, or in general? Also, the white paper on BeOS claims that with all the new advances in hardware, modern OS's have too many layers, which they call 'silt', to allow them to use the hardware effectively. They argue that only starting from scratch allows full use of modern technology, including multimedia advances. How can FreeBSD keep up? We don't have kernel threading and SMP support is still in the works, and most BSD features are 'add-ons'. Should this be a concern for the future? -=> jm <=- "Do not taunt the Happy Fun Ball." Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA28648 for pups-liszt; Sat, 29 Jan 2000 02:11:14 +1100 (EST) From emu at ecubics.com Sat Jan 29 01:14:48 2000 From: emu at ecubics.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 08:14:48 -0700 Subject: Sun release source code for Solaris 8 References: Message-ID: <004e01bf69a2$6c768bb0$5d01a8c0@p2350> ----- Original Message ----- From: Jonathon McKitrick To: John Rosenberg Cc: Greg Lehey ; Joerg B. Micheel ; Steven M. Schultz ; ; FreeBSD Chat Sent: Friday, January 28, 2000 07:24 Subject: Re: Sun release source code for Solaris 8 > > I'm a little concerned where all this leaves FreeBSD. If Solaris goes > open source, or something similar, and tries to compete with w2k, plus > linux is out there growing, and BeOS will be free soon.... FreeBSD might be a > tough sell. Several guys i know say the majority of new unix installs > are Linux with few BSD. They say the only BSD users that are growing > are ISPs. Does anyone have any stats on how fast we are > growing on the desktop, or in general? > > Also, the white paper on BeOS claims that with all the new advances in > hardware, modern OS's have too many layers, which they call 'silt', to > allow them to use the hardware effectively. They argue that only > starting from scratch allows full use of modern technology, including > multimedia advances. How can FreeBSD keep up? We don't have kernel > threading and SMP support is still in the works, and most BSD features > are 'add-ons'. Should this be a concern for the future? > > -=> jm <=- > > "Do not taunt the Happy Fun Ball." > > > Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id DAA29086 for pups-liszt; Sat, 29 Jan 2000 03:05:50 +1100 (EST) From tfb at cley.com Sat Jan 29 02:04:35 2000 From: tfb at cley.com (Tim Bradshaw) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 16:04:35 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Sun release source code for Solaris 8 In-Reply-To: References: <20000127110321.I53307@freebie.lemis.com> <20000127145736.Q53307@freebie.lemis.com> Message-ID: <14481.48659.525262.366785@cley.com> * Mirian Crzig Lennox wrote: > This is in contrast to the Ancient UNIX licence, where it's my > impression that SCO really doesn't care what you do with UNIX so long > as you don't share code with unlicensed people. But that's what you'd expect isn't it? Sun have some reasonable hope of continuing to make money from Solaris, and they obviously would like to retain some control, while SCO is unlikely to be regarding 6th-edition Unix as a big earner... --tim From emu at ecubics.com Sat Jan 29 13:21:32 2000 From: emu at ecubics.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 20:21:32 -0700 Subject: Sun release source code for Solaris 8 References: Message-ID: <02df01bf6a07$f43b8540$5d01a8c0@p2350> ----- Original Message ----- From: Jonathon McKitrick To: John Rosenberg Cc: Greg Lehey ; Joerg B. Micheel ; Steven M. Schultz ; ; FreeBSD Chat Sent: Friday, January 28, 2000 07:24 Subject: Re: Sun release source code for Solaris 8 > tough sell. Several guys i know say the majority of new unix installs > are Linux with few BSD. They say the only BSD users that are growing > are ISPs. I think, that linux is somehow an entry in the unix world ;-) After a while you notice, that *BSD is cleaner & more stable. > Also, the white paper on BeOS claims that with all the new advances in > hardware, modern OS's have too many layers, which they call 'silt', to > allow them to use the hardware effectively. Look what happened to linux & *BSD in the last months/years. They adapting new technologies very fast ... > They argue that only > starting from scratch allows full use of modern technology, including > multimedia advances. How can FreeBSD keep up? We don't have kernel > threading and SMP support is still in the works, and most BSD features > are 'add-ons'. Should this be a concern for the future? Don't be "concerned", build in the stuff you're missing ;-) cheers, emanuel From wkt at cs.adfa.edu.au Sun Jan 30 10:50:39 2000 From: wkt at cs.adfa.edu.au (Warren Toomey) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 11:50:39 +1100 (EST) Subject: Sun release source code for Solaris 8 In-Reply-To: from Mirian Crzig Lennox at "Jan 26, 2000 8: 0:57 pm" Message-ID: <200001300050.LAA33940@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> In article by Mirian Crzig Lennox: > Greg Lehey writes: > > > > The conditions look rather like the SCO ancient UNIX licences, but > > it's *cheaper* ($75, which includes deliverables from Sun). Warren, > > is this ammunition to lobby SCO to drop the prices of Ancient UNIX > > licenses? > > After looking at the site, it seems as though Sun is trying to prevent > licence holders from sharing code with other licence holders. If this > is true, it would certainly make the Solaris licence less desirable to > hobbyists than the ancient UNIX licence, unfortunately. > --Mirian Currently out of town. Still, it might be worth asking SCO for a discount! Does the license cover all of Solaris, or just the kernel?? Cheers, Warren From wkt at cs.adfa.edu.au Tue Jan 4 08:58:41 2000 From: wkt at cs.adfa.edu.au (Warren Toomey) Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 09:58:41 +1100 (EST) Subject: New Version of Apout PDP-11 Emulator Message-ID: <200001032258.JAA01481@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Welcome back to all the PUPS mailing list members! They've finally turned our router back on here, so now the list server Minnie is no longer deaf. Over the past few weeks I've been working on my Apout simulator, with help from Tim Shoppa, and it now runs binaries from 1st Edition UNIX. The announcement is below; details of how to obtain the source, and some UNIX binaries, are also given. Hope you all had a good festive break, and best wishes for the New Year. Cheers, Warren Apout -- Simulate PDP-11 Unix a.out binaries Version 2.3 Alpha Warren Toomey wkt at cs.adfa.edu.au January 2000 Introduction ------------ This program is a user-level simulator for UNIX a.out binaries. Binaries for V1, V5, V6, V7, 2.9BSD and 2.11BSD can be run with this simulator. The user-mode PDP-11 instructions are simulated, and TRAP instructions are emulated by calling equivalent native-mode system calls. The advantages of an a.out simulator over a full-blown PDP-11 simulator are: + system calls can be done natively, thus speeding up execution + the simulator is less of a CPU-hog than a full-blown PDP-11 simulator + you don't need a simulated operating system or a simulated file system Apout can be obtained via anonymous ftp at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au in the directory pub/PDP-11/Sims/Apout. The directory pub/PDP-11/Sims/Apout/UnixBins contains tar archives of a.out binaries from several versions of UNIX. Status ------ The program is now at release 2.3 Alpha1. Most of the binaries from V5, V6 and V7 run fine. All of the V5/V6/V7 system calls are caught, but some are ignored and some generate EPERM errors. The V1, 2.9BSD and 2.11BSD environments are still under construction: see the file LIMITATIONS for details. Finally, the simulator won't run on a big-endian machine. Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA29223 for pups-liszt; Tue, 4 Jan 2000 10:43:10 +1100 (EST) From wkt at cs.adfa.edu.au Tue Jan 4 10:08:05 2000 From: wkt at cs.adfa.edu.au (Warren Toomey) Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 11:08:05 +1100 (EST) Subject: No Answer to `Unix Mallet' Mystery Message-ID: <200001040008.LAA03372@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Hi all, I just received this e-mail from Keith Bostic, in reply to a strange question which was discussed on this mailing list months (years?) ago. Read on..... ----- Forwarded message from Keith Bostic ----- Hi, Warren, I'm digging out some old email, and found the following: > [Chris] While looking over userland source, calendar(1)'s calendar.computer > mentions: > 08/14 First Unix-based mallet created, 1954 > Could someone please explain the joke. :) > > [Warren] I can't find it in V6/V7/2.11. According to the SCCS records on > Kirk McKusick's 4th CD, > /usr/src/usr.bin/calendar/calendars/calendar.computer was: > date and time created 89/11/27 14:10:01 by bostic > Mind you, this was obviously the first time it was checked into SCCS. > > The earliest calendar.computer files I can find, apart from the > SCCS record, are: > > 4bsd/43reno.vax/src.tar, calendar.computer dated 1989/11/28 > 4bsd/net2/net2.tar, calendar.computer dated 1989/11/28 > 4bsd/43reno.vax/usr.tar, calendar.computer dated 1990/07/29 > > so the finger of suspicion does point at Keith Bostic. I think I'm just the one that checked it in... around that time I went through the source tree and committed everything into SCCS, and, my bet is that those files weren't already under SCCS. I also broke the single calendar file up into a bunch of different files as part of re-writing calendar(1) to make it AT&T free. You might want to look in early releases for a "calendar" source file, and not "calendar.computer" (although I'm not positive it was named "calendar", I'm pretty sure that I broke an original file up into multiple files, so I created the "calendar.computer" file and filled it with stuff from an already existing file). > So can you shed any light on this interesting entry in calendar.computer, > was it a private joke, and were you the perpertrator? Not me. Did you ever figure out where the line came from? --keith ----- End of forwarded message from Keith Bostic ----- Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA29790 for pups-liszt; Tue, 4 Jan 2000 12:15:39 +1100 (EST) From wkt at cs.adfa.edu.au Tue Jan 4 11:40:19 2000 From: wkt at cs.adfa.edu.au (Warren Toomey) Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 12:40:19 +1100 (EST) Subject: 200 Ancient UNIX Licenses Message-ID: <200001040140.MAA04392@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Hi all, Just a note to say that I have received SCO Ancient UNIX licenses up to AU-201 in the mail today. Another note: a bug in the date libraries in 5th and 6th Edition Unix prevents ctime() from properly displaying dates after November 1999. I haven't bothered to find/fix it yet. Cheers, Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA32773 for pups-liszt; Tue, 4 Jan 2000 22:45:57 +1100 (EST) From norman at nose.cita.utoronto.ca Tue Jan 4 22:08:51 2000 From: norman at nose.cita.utoronto.ca (norman at nose.cita.utoronto.ca) Date: Tue, 04 Jan 2000 07:08:51 -0500 Subject: 200(0) Ancient UNIX Licenses Message-ID: <200001041145.WAA32766@minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au> Warren's note reminds me of a few other Y2K bugs I've spotted that affect ancient UNIX: - date: no way to set the date past 1999 unless in the present year, because two-digit input. - at and atrun: commands are stored in the spooling directory with names of the form YY.DDD.HHMM.xx, where xx is a unique number. This one is trickier to fix, because the filename is already exactly 14 characters, so there's no room for expansion. (On V10, I just rewrote the programs to use a simple UNIX time expressed as a decimal number. A simpler solution might be to print the year in hex.) - Perhaps least consequential and most amusing: nroff and troff store the year in a number register. The manual says it contains `the last two digits of the year,' and many macro packages assume that is true, but the truth is that it contains (year-1900), the same as tm_year. So, for example, when I ran man on New Year's Day, I was told that the manual page had been printed on 1/1/100. I was about to fix the various troff macro packages when I noticed that the manual implied that I shouldn't. I asked Brian Kernighan for an opinion (since the code and the manual were both last touched by him); he thinks the best view is that the manual is just wrong and the macro packages should be fixed. \n(yr is a read-write register, so `.nr yr \n(yr+1900' is probably the easiest fix, though Brian points out that it's not always the right one (maybe you really wanted a two-digit year). If anyone is interested I can pass along a more detailed note from Brian. Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA33653 for pups-liszt; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 02:17:48 +1100 (EST) From msokolov at meson.jpsystems.com Wed Jan 5 01:39:51 2000 From: msokolov at meson.jpsystems.com (Michael Sokolov) Date: Tue, 4 Jan 00 09:39:51 -0600 Subject: 200(0) Ancient UNIX Licenses In-Reply-To: <200001041145.WAA32766@minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au> Message-ID: <0001041539.AA12473@meson.jpsystems.com> norman at nose.cita.utoronto.ca wrote: > Warren's note reminds me of a few other Y2K bugs I've spotted that affect > ancient UNIX: ^^^^^^^ Would you please avoid that term? It is offensive to those for whom Kernighan/ Ritchie/Thompson/Berkeley UNIX is the primary and sole computing platform. Thank you. > - date: no way to set the date past 1999 unless in the present year, > because two-digit input. > - at and atrun: commands are stored in the spooling directory with names > of the form YY.DDD.HHMM.xx, where xx is a unique number. This one is > trickier to fix, because the filename is already exactly 14 characters, > so there's no room for expansion. (On V10, I just rewrote the programs > to use a simple UNIX time expressed as a decimal number. A simpler solution > might be to print the year in hex.) Both Y2K bugs have been fixed in the UNIX master source tree a couple of weeks ago, will appear on the 4.3-QJ0b tape. For details, send a subscription request to quasijarus-request at meson.jpsystems.com. > - Perhaps least consequential and most amusing: nroff and troff store the > year in a number register. The manual says it contains `the last two > digits of the year,' and many macro packages assume that is true, but the > truth is that it contains (year-1900), the same as tm_year. So, for example, > when I ran man on New Year's Day, I was told that the manual page had been > printed on 1/1/100. > > I was about to fix the various troff macro packages when I noticed that > the manual implied that I shouldn't. I asked Brian Kernighan for an opinion > (since the code and the manual were both last touched by him); he thinks the > best view is that the manual is just wrong and the macro packages should be > fixed. \n(yr is a read-write register, so `.nr yr \n(yr+1900' is probably > the easiest fix, though Brian points out that it's not always the right one > (maybe you really wanted a two-digit year). If anyone is interested I can > pass along a more detailed note from Brian. OK, haven't hit that one yet, will look. Please do pass along B. W. Kernighan's note. -- Michael Sokolov Harhan Computer Operation Facility Special Agent 615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY #4 International Free Computing Task Force DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA Phone: +1-214-824-7693 ARPA INET: msokolov at meson.jpsystems.com Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id DAA34078 for pups-liszt; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 03:27:07 +1100 (EST) From apg at execpc.com Wed Jan 5 02:46:07 2000 From: apg at execpc.com (A. P. Garcia) Date: 4 Jan 2000 16:46:07 -0000 Subject: that ancient old geezer stuff Message-ID: <20000104164607.201.qmail@playground.lan> norman at nose.cita.utoronto.ca wrote: >> Warren's note reminds me of a few other Y2K bugs I've spotted that affect >> ancient UNIX: msokolov at meson.jpsystems.com replied: > Would you please avoid that term? It is offensive to those for whom Kernighan/ > Ritchie/Thompson/Berkeley UNIX is the primary and sole computing platform. Interesting. It's true that the word ancient is generally pejorative in the context of computers. However, I think that this word may have helped persuade SCO to offer us licenses for these versions. The header of my license contains some wording like, "Special software license agreement for ancient unix source code." So I tend to use this terminology with an inside-joke kind of smirk on my face. These kernels are more elegant and pure in design than their descendants. If the good folks at SCO are having pleasant dreams, please don't disturb their sleep. > Please do pass along B. W. Kernighan's note. I second this request. Don't hold out on us. :-) From norman at nose.cita.utoronto.ca Wed Jan 5 09:32:03 2000 From: norman at nose.cita.utoronto.ca (norman at nose.cita.utoronto.ca) Date: Tue, 04 Jan 2000 18:32:03 -0500 Subject: 200(0) Ancient UNIX Licenses Message-ID: <200001042310.KAA35724@minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au> Here's Brian Kernighan's note on troff and Y2K: in n1.c, numtab[YR] is set to localtime()->tm_year, which is the number of years since 1900. in 2000, this will contain 100. the troff manual says that \n(yr contains "the last two digits of the current year", but nowhere in the code is this set, and the year can be set to anything. so it's really "the current year minus 1900". the manual and the code are inconsistent, which is always a problem. in any case, in most installations troff and nroff are legacy systems for which there is no source code, so changing them is not feasible. furthermore, any change to troff is likely to require changes in macro packages anyway, and may cause silent errors by conflicting with current behavior or colliding with previously unused names. fortunately, it seems straightforward to fix the macro packages that are the most likely sources of problem; individual macro packages will have to be fixed by individuals. grepping for "yr" will find most trouble spots. typical macros packages use \n(yr in two ways. one is ds ]W (printed \n(mo/\n(dy/\n(yr) which assumes that the year is 2 digits and to be printed as 2 digits. presumably the first day of 2000 is to be printed as 1/1/00, so the fix here is to set register yr to 2 digits .nr yr \n(yr%100 either once at the beginning (under the assumption that the year isn't changed by the macro package) or each time \n(yr is going to be used (providing locality at the price of more changes). the other common usage is .ds ]W \*(]m \n(dy, 19\n(yr the easiest way to fix this is to add, at the beginning again, .nr yr 1900+\n(yr and change all subsequent uses from 19\n(yr to \n(yr. any macro package that uses both of these constructions will need a bit more care to unify things; the easiest fix is likely to be two registers, one with the full year and one with the last two digits. .nr YR 1900+\n(yr \" 4-digit year .nr yr \n(yr%100 \" last two digits this will break code that happened to use this register name. some macro packages (e.g., -mm) try to be clever about dates, and include explicit tests to determine whether a user-provided date has 2 or 4 digits, and then adjust by 1900; this is another case that has to be fiddled by hand. any approach that changes register yr at the beginning fails if the year is set explicitly later on, as it might be by some of the date macros in -ms and -mm. this still seems like the best fix, however. Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA35876 for pups-liszt; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 10:35:21 +1100 (EST) From norman at nose.cita.utoronto.ca Wed Jan 5 09:56:48 2000 From: norman at nose.cita.utoronto.ca (norman at nose.cita.utoronto.ca) Date: Tue, 04 Jan 2000 18:56:48 -0500 Subject: 200(0) Ancient UNIX Ulcers Message-ID: <200001042334.KAA35866@minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au> Michael Sokolov grumbled: > Warren's note reminds me of a few other Y2K bugs I've spotted that affect > ancient UNIX: ^^^^^^^ Would you please avoid that term? It is offensive to those for whom Kernighan/ Ritchie/Thompson/Berkeley UNIX is the primary and sole computing platform. Thank you. If the shoe doesn't fit, feel free not to wear it. I certainly didn't have `Kernighan/Ritchie/Thompson/Berkeley UNIX' in mind; I rarely do, as I am much more interested in ancient systems. Chuckling all the way to the rest home, Norman Wilson Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA37886 for pups-liszt; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 20:13:04 +1100 (EST) From grog at lemis.com Wed Jan 5 19:33:12 2000 From: grog at lemis.com (Greg Lehey) Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 20:03:12 +1030 Subject: 200(0) Ancient UNIX Licenses In-Reply-To: <200001041145.WAA32766@minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au> References: <200001041145.WAA32766@minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au> Message-ID: <20000105200311.Y30038@freebie.lemis.com> On Tuesday, 4 January 2000 at 7:08:51 -0500, norman at nose.cita.utoronto.ca wrote: > Warren's note reminds me of a few other Y2K bugs I've spotted that affect > ancient UNIX: > - date: no way to set the date past 1999 unless in the present year, > because two-digit input. I didn't have any problem with 2.11BSD. I just supplied 00 for the year. Which release were you using? Greg -- Finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA38658 for pups-liszt; Thu, 6 Jan 2000 00:03:32 +1100 (EST) From SHOPPA at trailing-edge.com Wed Jan 5 23:23:18 2000 From: SHOPPA at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 8:23:18 -0500 Subject: 200(0) Ancient UNIX Licenses Message-ID: <000105082318.202000b0@trailing-edge.com> Greg wrote: >On Tuesday, 4 January 2000 at 7:08:51 -0500, norman at nose.cita.utoronto.ca wrote: >> Warren's note reminds me of a few other Y2K bugs I've spotted that affect >> ancient UNIX: >> - date: no way to set the date past 1999 unless in the present year, >> because two-digit input. >I didn't have any problem with 2.11BSD. I just supplied 00 for the >year. Which release were you using? That's because I did the fix for 2.11BSD back when I was Y2K-ing all my PDP-11 sources a few years ago, and Steven incorporated it into the distribution. The fix was quick and dirty, but works fine because Unix effectively has an expiration date of 2038 when the signed 32-bit time word goes negative, so it's easy enough to window the centuries. This brings up a question: should fixes (and I mean fundamental fixes like Y2K ones) be incorporated back into the boot images in the archive, or should they be left in their "pristine" state? (Yes, i know, some of those boot images aren't quite so pristine.) As long as we're on the topic, which versions of Unix had the C compiler recognize when it was recompiling the kernel and put a back door in for the developers? And of course the C compiler recognized when it was recompiling itself and made sure that the this recognition code was also inserted. As I understand it, the distributed sources never had this security hole in them, only the binaries, but of course the binaries self-perpetuated the security hole even if you recompiled them. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa at trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA39019 for pups-liszt; Thu, 6 Jan 2000 01:30:17 +1100 (EST) From apg at execpc.com Thu Jan 6 00:46:13 2000 From: apg at execpc.com (A. P. Garcia) Date: 5 Jan 2000 14:46:13 -0000 Subject: 200(0) Ancient UNIX Licenses Message-ID: <20000105144613.450.qmail@playground.lan> > This brings up a question: should fixes (and I mean fundamental fixes > like Y2K ones) be incorporated back into the boot images in the archive, or > should they be left in their "pristine" state? (Yes, i know, some of > those boot images aren't quite so pristine.) Ideally, both. Perhaps boot images with these fixes should be available, yes, but so should the originals. > As long as we're on the topic, which versions of Unix had the C > compiler recognize when it was recompiling the kernel and put a back > door in for the developers? Good question! I don't know, but it was actually the login command... From wkt at cs.adfa.edu.au Thu Jan 6 06:35:23 2000 From: wkt at cs.adfa.edu.au (Warren Toomey) Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 07:35:23 +1100 (EST) Subject: Viral Unix Compiler In-Reply-To: <000105082318.202000b0@trailing-edge.com> from Tim Shoppa at "Jan 5, 2000 8:23:18 am" Message-ID: <200001052035.HAA24359@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> In article by Tim Shoppa: > This brings up a question: should fixes (and I mean fundamental fixes > like Y2K ones) be incorporated back into the boot images in the archive, or > should they be left in their "pristine" state? (Yes, i know, some of > those boot images aren't quite so pristine.) I'd agree to both. Mind you, once you start patching, where do you stop? We could bring V6 up to being POSIX compatible with an ANSI C compiler :-) Seriously, at one stage I did think of trying to check-in every version of UNIX we have into a single CVS repository. Problem is, files have moved around, and I want to leave gaps just in case we ever get the missing versions. > As long as we're on the topic, which versions of Unix had the C > compiler recognize when it was recompiling [/bin/login] and put a back > door in for the developers? I might ask Dennis for the details. From memory, the binaries never got out of the Labs, and it would have been around the time of V6. Also from memory, this was the topic of Ken's speech when he won the Turing award. I wonder if the article is lying around somewhere. Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id HAA41128 for pups-liszt; Thu, 6 Jan 2000 07:45:45 +1100 (EST) From luvisi at andru.sonoma.edu Thu Jan 6 07:01:27 2000 From: luvisi at andru.sonoma.edu (Andru Luvisi) Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 13:01:27 -0800 (PST) Subject: Viral Unix Compiler In-Reply-To: <200001052035.HAA24359@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Message-ID: On Thu, 6 Jan 2000, Warren Toomey wrote: [snip] > I might ask Dennis for the details. From memory, the binaries never got out > of the Labs, and it would have been around the time of V6. Also from memory, > this was the topic of Ken's speech when he won the Turing award. I wonder if > the article is lying around somewhere. http://www.acm.org/classics/sep95/ Andru -- -------------------------------------------------------------------------- | Andru Luvisi | http://libweb.sonoma.edu/ | | Programmer/Analyst | Library Resources Online | | Ruben Salazar Library |-----------------------------------------| | Sonoma State University | http://www.belleprovence.com/ | | luvisi at andru.sonoma.edu | Textile imports from Provence, France | -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA41348 for pups-liszt; Thu, 6 Jan 2000 08:14:17 +1100 (EST) From jcapp at wilkes.kp.net Thu Jan 6 07:33:48 2000 From: jcapp at wilkes.kp.net (J. Capp) Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 16:33:48 -0500 (EST) Subject: Viral Unix Compiler In-Reply-To: <200001052035.HAA24359@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Message-ID: On Thu, 6 Jan 2000, Warren Toomey wrote: > > I might ask Dennis for the details. From memory, the binaries never got out > of the Labs, and it would have been around the time of V6. Also from memory, > this was the topic of Ken's speech when he won the Turing award. I wonder if > the article is lying around somewhere. > Ken's speech "Reflections on Trusting Trust", was published in the Communication of the ACM, Vol. 27, No. 8, August 1984. It describes this "trojan horse" in great detail. But I do believe from this article that it was an example of what could be done, not necessarily something that was ever released into the hands of the public. Jim Capp Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA48149 for pups-liszt; Thu, 6 Jan 2000 20:09:45 +1100 (EST) From norman at nose.cita.utoronto.ca Thu Jan 6 19:08:52 2000 From: norman at nose.cita.utoronto.ca (norman at nose.cita.utoronto.ca) Date: Thu, 06 Jan 2000 04:08:52 -0500 Subject: revisionism Message-ID: <200001060909.UAA48145@minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au> Tim Shoppa: This brings up a question: should fixes (and I mean fundamental fixes like Y2K ones) be incorporated back into the boot images in the archive, or should they be left in their "pristine" state? (Yes, i know, some of those boot images aren't quite so pristine.) I would argue strongly that the archive should contain absolutely pure copies of any historic objects, whether they were proper distributions or just snapshots like most of the older boot images. It's important to preserve accurate, unbowdlerized history; that is part of what we should be doing. There's nothing wrong with keeping fixed-up versions too, but but they should be clearly distinguished from the historic originals. (Perhaps we could label them `ancient' and `primary platform'?) Even using a CVS repository somehow doesn't feel kosher to me, though that is probably silly as long as it is possible (and clear how) to extract the unimproved original, and as long as the very original distribution or dump tape or whatnot is kept around too so that future archaeologists have the right thing to study. Norman Wilson 684 Crawford Street, Toronto (Formerly 696 Crawford Street before a renumbering in the 1950s; I keep thinking of putting the old number up too.) Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA48301 for pups-liszt; Thu, 6 Jan 2000 20:35:35 +1100 (EST) From norman at nose.cita.utoronto.ca Thu Jan 6 19:34:51 2000 From: norman at nose.cita.utoronto.ca (norman at nose.cita.utoronto.ca) Date: Thu, 06 Jan 2000 04:34:51 -0500 Subject: Viral Unix Compiler Message-ID: <200001060935.UAA48295@minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au> So far as I know (from conversations with insiders in the past), no system was ever shipped out of Bell Labs with Ken's self-healing trojan horse in login and the C compiler. (For those who don't remember, both programs were involved: login buggered so that a secret string was always accepted as a valid password for any login; the compiler buggered to recognize when compiling login or itself, and reinsert the buggery. Hence one can remove the buggered sources, but as long as the binaries remain, so will the bugs.) Ken's Turing Award lecture doesn't say whether those programs were ever shipped to the public. He probably left it dangling on purpose, since the point he is trying to make is that it isn't just code you have to trust, but the programmer who wrote it; you cannot possibly know everything that's going on inside unless you created everything involved, including compilers and assemblers and the operating system. Dennis's Turing Award lecture in the same issue of CACM is worth re-reading too, especially for those who think that Open Source is a cure for the common cold or that it was invented in the 1990s or 1980s. Norman Wilson Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA48359 for pups-liszt; Thu, 6 Jan 2000 20:45:36 +1100 (EST) From wkt at cs.adfa.edu.au Thu Jan 6 19:45:17 2000 From: wkt at cs.adfa.edu.au (Warren Toomey) Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 20:45:17 +1100 (EST) Subject: CVS Repository for UNIX In-Reply-To: <200001060909.UAA48145@minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au> from "norman@nose.cita.utoronto.ca" at "Jan 6, 2000 4: 8:52 am" Message-ID: <200001060945.UAA35060@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> In article by norman at nose.cita.utoronto.ca: > I would argue strongly that the archive should contain absolutely pure > copies of any historic objects, whether they were proper distributions > or just snapshots like most of the older boot images. It's important > to preserve accurate, unbowdlerized history; that is part of what we > should be doing. I agree completely. > Even using a CVS repository somehow doesn't feel kosher to me, though > that is probably silly as long as it is possible (and clear how) to > extract the unimproved original, and as long as the very original > distribution or dump tape or whatnot is kept around too so that future > archaeologists have the right thing to study. With CVS you can tag releases, and so you can extract back from a known release. You can have branches at various points too, and also merge branches. However, it really needs a CVS guru to make it work properly. And, of course, when we get to BSD, we should bring the existing SCCS deltas into the CVS tree, too. The CVS idea can be someone else's project :-) Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA49218 for pups-liszt; Fri, 7 Jan 2000 00:17:14 +1100 (EST) From SHOPPA at trailing-edge.com Thu Jan 6 23:16:41 2000 From: SHOPPA at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 8:16:41 -0500 Subject: Viral Unix Compiler Message-ID: <000106081641.202001e1@trailing-edge.com> >So far as I know (from conversations with insiders in the past), no system >was ever shipped out of Bell Labs with Ken's self-healing trojan horse in >login and the C compiler. (For those who don't remember, both programs >were involved: login buggered so that a secret string was always accepted >as a valid password for any login; the compiler buggered to recognize when >compiling login or itself, and reinsert the buggery. Hence one can remove >the buggered sources, but as long as the binaries remain, so will the bugs.) > >Ken's Turing Award lecture doesn't say whether those programs were ever >shipped to the public. He probably left it dangling on purpose, since >the point he is trying to make is that it isn't just code you have to trust, >but the programmer who wrote it; you cannot possibly know everything that's >going on inside unless you created everything involved, including compilers >and assemblers and the operating system. Perhaps Ken went even further and distributed buggered binaries of 'od' as well (along with a 'cc' patch to re-insert the 'od' hole), so those attempting to hand disassemble the code to *check* for the existence of the security hole wouldn't find it. The 'cc+login' hole is nice, sweet, and self-consistent. Attempting to patch all the other tools to make it impossible to find these holes sounds incredibly more complicated. Maybe it was just the way Ken so clearly presented the "how to" lesson that makes anything I try to add onto it sound incredibly awkward. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa at trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA49497 for pups-liszt; Fri, 7 Jan 2000 01:25:03 +1100 (EST) From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Jan 7 00:23:43 2000 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Thu, 06 Jan 2000 08:23:43 -0600 Subject: Viral Unix Compiler In-Reply-To: <000106081641.202001e1@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000106082343.01638ec0@pc> Has it ever been independently established that this viral version of the compiler ever actually existed, or was this just a parable about viral code? - John From arno at usn.nl Fri Jan 7 06:37:26 2000 From: arno at usn.nl (Arno Griffioen) Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 21:37:26 +0100 (CET) Subject: Viral Unix Compiler In-Reply-To: <200001060935.UAA48295@minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au> from "norman@nose.cita.utoronto.ca" at "Jan 6, 2000 4:34:51 am" Message-ID: <200001062037.VAA06991@superluminal.usn.nl> > Dennis's Turing Award lecture in the same issue of CACM is worth re-reading too, > especially for those who think that Open Source is a cure for the common > cold or that it was invented in the 1990s or 1980s. Could you tell me which year/month this was? Perhaps it's in the ACM digital library and I can find it that way. Thanx! Bye, Arno. -- PSINetworks Europe Fax: +31-23-5699841 | One disk to rule them all, Siriusdreef 34 Tel: +31-23-5699840 | One disk to bind them, 2132WT Hoofddorp+--------------------------------+ One disk to hold the files The Netherlands | * Musical Interlude * | And in the darkness grind 'em ----------------+--------------------------------+------------------------------ We say Retribution, We say Vengeance is bliss, We say Revolution, With a Cast-Iron fist! (Megadeth, 'The Disintegrators') -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA51647 for pups-liszt; Fri, 7 Jan 2000 09:30:02 +1100 (EST) From grant.maizels at cogita.com.au Fri Jan 7 08:30:19 2000 From: grant.maizels at cogita.com.au (Grant Maizels) Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2000 09:30:19 +1100 Subject: Viral Unix Compiler Message-ID: <5AE253C4A378D011A0520000F830A87D5D26AC@sydnt4.syd.cogita.co.nz> >> Dennis's Turing Award lecture in the same issue of CACM is worth re-reading too, >> especially for those who think that Open Source is a cure for the common >> cold or that it was invented in the 1990s or 1980s. > Could you tell me which year/month this was? Perhaps it's in the ACM > digital library and I can find it that way. > > Thanx! > > Bye, Arno. > The URL is http://www.acm.org/classics/sep95/ so I suppose it is September 1995. Grant Maizels grant at maizels.nu Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA51689 for pups-liszt; Fri, 7 Jan 2000 09:33:16 +1100 (EST) From wkt at cs.adfa.edu.au Fri Jan 7 08:32:53 2000 From: wkt at cs.adfa.edu.au (Warren Toomey) Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2000 09:32:53 +1100 (EST) Subject: Viral Unix Compiler In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20000106082343.01638ec0@pc> from John Foust at "Jan 6, 2000 8:23:43 am" Message-ID: <200001062232.JAA38496@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> In article by John Foust: > > Has it ever been independently established that this viral > version of the compiler ever actually existed, or was this > just a parable about viral code? > > - John I've asked Dennis. I'll relay any replies. Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA51803 for pups-liszt; Fri, 7 Jan 2000 09:49:34 +1100 (EST) From norman at nose.cita.utoronto.ca Fri Jan 7 08:48:47 2000 From: norman at nose.cita.utoronto.ca (norman at nose.cita.utoronto.ca) Date: Thu, 06 Jan 2000 17:48:47 -0500 Subject: Viral Unix Compiler Message-ID: <200001062249.JAA51799@minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au> The original publication of the Ken and Dennis Turing Award lectures was in August 1984 CACM. I gather there may have been some sort of repeat a few years ago, but my CACM collection, like my UNIX collection, is on the ancient side, so I don't know about that. Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA52219 for pups-liszt; Fri, 7 Jan 2000 11:12:11 +1100 (EST) From jp at spektr.eu.org Fri Jan 7 10:11:12 2000 From: jp at spektr.eu.org (Jorgen Pehrson) Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2000 01:11:12 +0100 (CET) Subject: Viral Unix Compiler In-Reply-To: <5AE253C4A378D011A0520000F830A87D5D26AC@sydnt4.syd.cogita.co.nz> Message-ID: On Fri, 7 Jan 2000, Grant Maizels wrote: > > >> Dennis's Turing Award lecture in the same issue of CACM is worth > re-reading too, > >> especially for those who think that Open Source is a cure for the common > >> cold or that it was invented in the 1990s or 1980s. > > > Could you tell me which year/month this was? Perhaps it's in the ACM > > digital library and I can find it that way. > > > > Thanx! > > > > Bye, Arno. > > > > The URL is http://www.acm.org/classics/sep95/ so I suppose it is September > 1995. > > Grant Maizels > grant at maizels.nu If you check the first line on that web page, you'll notice that it says: "Reprinted from Communication of the ACM, Vol. 27, No. 8, August 1984, pp. 761-763. Copyright © 1984, Association for Computing Machinery, Inc." So I'll guess the original print date was August 8 1984. -- Jörgen Pehrson jp at spektr.eu.org http://spektr.eu.org/~jp/ ----------------------------------------------------------- "Bill Gates and Richard Stallman Meet in Airport; Thousands Killed in Resulting Explosion. News at 11." Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA53194 for pups-liszt; Fri, 7 Jan 2000 14:59:01 +1100 (EST) From grant.maizels at cogita.com.au Fri Jan 7 13:59:23 2000 From: grant.maizels at cogita.com.au (Grant Maizels) Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2000 14:59:23 +1100 Subject: Viral Unix Compiler Message-ID: <5AE253C4A378D011A0520000F830A87D5D26B1@sydnt4.syd.cogita.co.nz> Oops that was a bit careless of me. Grant -----Original Message----- From: Jorgen Pehrson [mailto:jp at spektr.eu.org] Sent: Friday, 7 January 2000 11:11 To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: RE: Viral Unix Compiler On Fri, 7 Jan 2000, Grant Maizels wrote: > > >> Dennis's Turing Award lecture in the same issue of CACM is worth > re-reading too, > >> especially for those who think that Open Source is a cure for the common > >> cold or that it was invented in the 1990s or 1980s. > > > Could you tell me which year/month this was? Perhaps it's in the ACM > > digital library and I can find it that way. > > > > Thanx! > > > > Bye, Arno. > > > > The URL is http://www.acm.org/classics/sep95/ so I suppose it is September > 1995. > > Grant Maizels > grant at maizels.nu If you check the first line on that web page, you'll notice that it says: "Reprinted from Communication of the ACM, Vol. 27, No. 8, August 1984, pp. 761-763. Copyright © 1984, Association for Computing Machinery, Inc." So I'll guess the original print date was August 8 1984. -- Jörgen Pehrson jp at spektr.eu.org http://spektr.eu.org/~jp/ ----------------------------------------------------------- "Bill Gates and Richard Stallman Meet in Airport; Thousands Killed in Resulting Explosion. News at 11." Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA54308 for pups-liszt; Fri, 7 Jan 2000 19:07:40 +1100 (EST) From bdc at world.std.com Fri Jan 7 18:07:03 2000 From: bdc at world.std.com (Brian D Chase) Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2000 00:07:03 -0800 Subject: Viral Unix Compiler In-Reply-To: <200001060935.UAA48295@minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au> Message-ID: On Thu, 6 Jan 2000 norman at nose.cita.utoronto.ca wrote: [...] > Dennis's Turing Award lecture in the same issue of CACM is worth > re-reading too, especially for those who think that Open Source is a > cure for the common cold or that it was invented in the 1990s or > 1980s. Well, I think the whole basis for Richard Stallman's formation of the FSF and the GNU project during the 1980's was to keep alive the inherently "Open Source" nature of the software created during preceding decades. I hope not many people actually believe that Open Source is new concept. My personal take on Stallman is that he's a little whacked, but I do respect him incredibly for the work he's done with through the FSF. I think the industry could very easily have gone the Shareware route of the PC world had the GNU project, and eventually Linux, not entered the scene. It's possible we'd still have been okay with Linux once FreeBSD and NetBSD became a reality, but I believe Linux's early appearance struck just at exactly the right moment -- just when the web was being born. There's an immense amount of work ahead, but at least we're maintaining our history... and hopefully some people are learning from it. -brian. --- Brian Chase | bdc at world.std.com | http://world.std.com/~bdc/ ----- It is good that the world has Internet, for the world can see living math done from the pouring of the concrete foundation all the way up to where the beautiful pictures are hung on the wall and the microwave is warming up cheese burritos. -- Archimedes Plutonium, 1995 From wkt at cs.adfa.edu.au Mon Jan 10 15:40:39 2000 From: wkt at cs.adfa.edu.au (Warren Toomey) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2000 16:40:39 +1100 (EST) Subject: Successful recompilation of last1120 C compiler Message-ID: <200001100540.QAA64928@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Hi All, With a lot of help from Norman Wilson, Tim Shoppa and Dennis Ritchie himself, I've been able to modify my Apout emulator to run the 2nd Edition UNIX C compiler binaries. Using these, I've been able to recompile the `last1120' C compiler described by Dennis on his web page at: http://cm.bell-labs.com/cm/cs/who/dmr/primevalC.html The new version of Apout, as always, is available at: ftp://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/pub/PDP-11/Sims/Apout/ I've also put the source code to the last1120 C compiler in UnixBins/ Soren also pointed out a code problem stopping compilation on NetBSD, which has been fixed. Cheers all, Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA74341 for pups-liszt; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 02:10:03 +1100 (EST) From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Tue Jan 11 01:08:33 2000 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2000 07:08:33 -0800 Subject: I need help rewriting the 2.11BSD bootblock... Message-ID: <13514475029.13.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> Problem as follows: I have a PDP-11/44, 2 DZ11s, a (currently nonfunctional) Emulex TC12 tape controller, a Pertec-type drive for that (known working), and a Viking UDT MSCP <> SCSI disk controller. Problem is, the Viking doesn't raise the RACMDI bit upon completion of a command because interrupts are off, so the boot loops forever. I tried taking out the test for RACMDI and just putting in delay loops, but that doesn't work. (The boot hangs later on trying to reset the controller. I dunno if the I/O went or not.) The controller and system are known good. I can put RT-11 back on the disk and it will run fine (excepting the date). I have a 200 meg SCSI-1 drive on there, it will get a 540 meg drive later. Anyway, I need to change the boot. I was told others had this problem too. I lack MSCP docs and don't really have the knowledge to do this. Can someone help me, or at least point me at someone who can? I'm more or less stuck for now. ------- From SHOPPA at trailing-edge.com Wed Jan 12 07:58:14 2000 From: SHOPPA at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 16:58:14 -0500 Subject: More USENIX tapes recovered Message-ID: <000111165814.202000b0@trailing-edge.com> On a recent expedition, I recovered some additional USENIX tapes: Usenix 83 Usenix 87 Usenix 88 Usenix 89 Now, none of these are as "classic" as the current Usenix tapes in the PUPS archive (by my searching, Usenix 77, 78, 79, 80, and 81.) Is there perhaps some other on-line archive out there that would be interested in copies of these tapes? My E-mails to various addresses on www.usenix.org so far have left me with the impression that they have no library of material older than 1993 and they have no interest in older material, though I strongly suspect that I'm talking with all the wrong people. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa at trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id DAA85888 for pups-liszt; Thu, 13 Jan 2000 03:04:56 +1100 (EST) From jcrosenberg at earthlink.net Thu Jan 13 02:03:04 2000 From: jcrosenberg at earthlink.net (John Rosenberg) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 11:03:04 -0500 Subject: New member References: <200001100540.QAA64928@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Message-ID: <003f01bf5d16$a0ccc020$c469fea9@home> Kind greetings, all. I am a new member of the Society, and have been delighted with the messages I have seen. Recently I came into posession of a MicroVAX 4000 series machine at an auction, and the question now is: What do I do with the darned thing? It was really a bargain I could not pass up; and I'm pretty sure that it is in entirely usable condition. (I still have to fully test it.) Suggesetions? I have no Web site to run, even if I did want to spend the money on the required infrastructure & maintenance. Much obliged in advance, and again, I am more than happy to have joined the Society. John Rosenberg 33 Pond Ave. #601 Brookline, MA 02445 617-277-7868 jcrosenberg at earthlink.net (generally preferred) Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id DAA86073 for pups-liszt; Thu, 13 Jan 2000 03:33:14 +1100 (EST) From msokolov at meson.jpsystems.com Thu Jan 13 02:31:19 2000 From: msokolov at meson.jpsystems.com (Michael Sokolov) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 00 10:31:19 -0600 Subject: New member In-Reply-To: <003f01bf5d16$a0ccc020$c469fea9@home> Message-ID: <0001121631.AA27623@meson.jpsystems.com> John Rosenberg wrote: > Recently I came into posession of a MicroVAX 4000 series machine at an > auction, and the question now is: What do I do with the darned thing? The right answer for you is the Quasijarus project. See its WWW page at: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/ The project has a mailing list to which I have already subscribed you. To post to the list, send to quasijarus at meson.jpsystems.com. If anyone else wants to subscribe, drop a line to quasijarus-request at meson.jpsystems.com. -- Michael Sokolov 2695 VILLA CREEK DR STE 240 Software Engineer DALLAS TX 75234-7329 USA JP Systems, Inc. Phone: +1-972-484-5432 x247 or +1-888-665-2460 x247 E-mail: msokolov at meson.jpsystems.com Fax: +1-972-484-4154 Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id DAA86111 for pups-liszt; Thu, 13 Jan 2000 03:36:54 +1100 (EST) From msokolov at meson.jpsystems.com Thu Jan 13 02:35:04 2000 From: msokolov at meson.jpsystems.com (Michael Sokolov) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 00 10:35:04 -0600 Subject: New member Message-ID: <0001121635.AA27632@meson.jpsystems.com> I just wrote: > [...] > -- > Michael Sokolov 2695 VILLA CREEK DR STE 240 > Software Engineer DALLAS TX 75234-7329 USA > JP Systems, Inc. Phone: +1-972-484-5432 x247 > or +1-888-665-2460 x247 > E-mail: msokolov at meson.jpsystems.com Fax: +1-972-484-4154 Argh! Used the wrong sig file again! Here is the right one: -- Michael Sokolov Harhan Computer Operation Facility Special Agent 615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY #4 International Free Computing Task Force DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA Phone: +1-214-824-7693 ARPA INET: msokolov at meson.jpsystems.com I guess I'll keep bumping into this one until I set up separate mail addresses for my two affiliations and subscribe to all lists from the right one... Sorry about that. From wkt at cs.adfa.edu.au Sat Jan 15 09:10:07 2000 From: wkt at cs.adfa.edu.au (Warren Toomey) Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2000 10:10:07 +1100 (EST) Subject: macro-11 for V7-Unix In-Reply-To: <387F7844.292A1DEC@fh-jena.de> from "Prof. Karl Kleine" at "Jan 14, 2000 8:25:56 pm" Message-ID: <200001142310.KAA06954@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> In article by Prof. Karl Kleine: > > Dear Warren, > > once upon a time, it was around 1981, I used a pdp11/45 with V7 > (I started my life with Unix with V6 in 1977/8), doing some research > in compilers, portability, dense code schemes for interpreters. > For that I used a port of DEC MACRO-11 to Unix. There was also > an associated linker and the package offered also Fortran, though > I didnt't use the latter. As far as I remember, this port was > done at Harvard and distributed to some academic sites. I was > at the University of Nijmegen, The Netherlands, at that time. > > I have the Supnik emulator to play with, and I wonder if this > macro-11 and linker is still somewhere around. I would love to > prepare a few examples for my lessons here (I'm a professor in > computer science these days, at the University of Applied Sciences > here in Jena). > > Any ideas? Might there be copies in yours archive? I would like > to know before I go through the motions of getting teh SCO source > licence and all that... > > Thanks for your help! > Karl Kleine Hi Karl, I think this came up on Usenet recently. No I don't know of a port of Macro-11 to Unix. I'll pass this on to our mailing list, just in case anybody knows of it. Cheers, Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA03424 for pups-liszt; Sat, 15 Jan 2000 11:53:18 +1100 (EST) From SHOPPA at trailing-edge.com Sat Jan 15 10:52:53 2000 From: SHOPPA at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 19:52:53 -0500 Subject: macro-11 for V7-Unix Message-ID: <000114195253.20200992@trailing-edge.com> >In article by Prof. Karl Kleine: >> once upon a time, it was around 1981, I used a pdp11/45 with V7 >> (I started my life with Unix with V6 in 1977/8), doing some research >> in compilers, portability, dense code schemes for interpreters. >> For that I used a port of DEC MACRO-11 to Unix. There was also >>... >> I have the Supnik emulator to play with, and I wonder if this >> macro-11 and linker is still somewhere around. I would love to >> prepare a few examples for my lessons here (I'm a professor in >Hi Karl, I think this came up on Usenet recently. No I don't know >of a port of Macro-11 to Unix. I'll pass this on to our mailing list, >just in case anybody knows of it. As the possibly only member of this list who still makes a living writing MACRO-11 code, I'm gonna take two shots at this: One possibility is the "as11" assembler from Xinu. It's a fairly portable PDP-11 assembler, but doesn't have all the real macro facilities of real Macro-11. You can find this at http://metalab.unc.edu/pub/academic/computer-science/history/pdp-11/xinu/unpacked/src/cmd/as11/ The other (and more likely) possibility is the "m11" macro package from Harvard, which *does* come with a linker ("l11") as Karl described. The full distribution is in the 2.11BSD source tree, at "/usr/src/new/m11". Here's the man page - look at the "NOTES" section near the bottom for the history. M11(1) M11(1) NAME m11 - Macro-11 assembler for UNIX SYNOPSIS m11 [ option1 option2 ... ] file1 file2 ... filen DESCRIPTION M11 assembles the concatenation of the specified files (file1, etc.) and terminates when an ``.end'' statement is encountered. The resulting object file is usually named filen.obj (see below). If a file argument, filei does not contain a ``.'' in its name, the file filei.m11 will be sought before filei itself. Options, if desired, may appear anywhere in the command, and are chosen from the following list. All options are interpreted before any files are read. -ls Produce an assembly listing and place in filen.lst -lt Produce an assembly listing on the standard output. -fl If coupled with the -ls or -lt directives, makes the listing have a shortened format. It is short hand for -nl:seq:loc:bin:bex:me:meb:ttm:toc:sym. -uc Simulate an initial .dsabl lc directive. Force all characters in macro definitions to be upper case. This flag makes lower-case handling in m11 compat able with the DEC Macro-11 assemblers. -um Force all characters in macro definitions to be upper case. This flag makes lower-case handling in this release of m11 compatable with previous ver sions of m11. -de Make all option choices needed to make assembly mimic DEC Macro-11. Implies (inter alia) the -uc flag. This includes the Johns Hopkins asm assem bler. -ha Make all option choices needed to make assembly mimic earlier (Harvard) releases of m11. This implies the -um flag. Default .psect and .csect attributes are set up in the funny Harvard way. -mx Produce a listing of the source program as it appears after macro expansion. Macro calls, condi tional directives and so on appear in the listing as comments. Listing appears on standard output. No machine code is generated or listed. This option is meant to correspond to the -E or -P options of the C compiler cc(1). -my Like -mx, except that macro calls and conditional directives do not show up in the listing. -10 Generate an error whenever op codes not in the PDP-11 ``standard instruction set'' are encoun tered. Programmers writing for a PDP 11/10 can catch instructions illegal for that machine by using this argument. -dp:args The default attributes for a .psect or unnamed .csect are redefined, using the colon-separated list args of valid .psect attributes. -da:args The default attributes for an .asect are redefined. -dp:c The default attributes for a named .csect are rede fined. -li:arglist Simulate an initial .list arglist directive. All .list and .nlist directives in the program text which attempt to change the settings established with the -li flag will be ignored. -nl:arglist Like -li:arglist, but for the .nlist directive. -en:arglist Similarly, for the .enabl directive. -ds:arglist Similarly, but for the .dsabl directive. -cr:arglist Produces a cross-reference listing. If the -ls option is also included, the cross-reference list ing will follow the assembly listing in filen.lst. References which are tagged with the symbol # are definitions. References tagged with * are destuc tive references: the value of the symbol or vari able in question is changed. Arglist consists of colon-separated keywords from the following set. The keywords may be prefix abbreviated: sym All user-defined symbols are indexed. mac All macro names are indexed. per All uses of permanent symbols - op codes, directives, etc - are indexed. pse All psect names are indexed. For compata bility with the RT-11 CREF program, the argument cse is synonymous with pse. err All errors are indexed. reg All register uses are indexed. If no arglist is specified the default sym:mac:err is used. In the listing page and line numbers for uses of symbols are followed by a # sign if the symbol is defined and by a * sign if the symbol is modified. -lp Same as -ls, but also spools filen.lst for printing upon completion. -no No object file is produced. This is useful for syntax checking or list producing. -xs:n Allots nK words of extra space for symbol table and macro storage. NOTE: This option is currently inoperative: m11 automatically allots core for its tables as needed. -xx Debug flag: generate all kinds of wierd hack flack. -ns No symbol table is included in the object file (thus ddt knows of no symbols from this assembly). -sx Make the symbol table contain ``local symbols'' as well as ordinary symbols. -u Treat form feed characters as spaces. This will make m11's idea of line numbers coincide with the UNIX text editors. Macro-11 statements containing imbedded form feed characters will be parsed dif ferently when the -u flag is in effect. -na:file Override the convention of using last name as file name. Instead, use names file.obj and file.lst for object and listing files. NOTES This implementation of Macro-11 is a distant hand-me down from an old DEC Macro-11 modified at Harvard University in the early 1970's. It is grubby with smudges by Brent Byer, F. J. Howard, Bob Bowering, and Jim Reeds. It does not implement keyword arguments such as are described in section 7.3.6 of the DEC manual. The .enabl abs option does not work. Listing control is by default .list ttm. Unlike earlier editions of m11 at UCB and at Harvard, it does treat immediate constants of floating point opera tions correctly: see the last paragraph of section 6.4.2 on the middle of page 6-27 of the DEC manual. M11 has several directives not described in the DEC manual. See the New UCB M11 Manual. The default attributes for .psects are different from those described in the DEC man ual, but may be changed by the -dp flag. The .enabl glb feature is implemented: undefined symbols are taken as undefined global externals. FILES /usr/share/misc/sysmac.smlsystem macro library (for .mcall directive) filen.xrf intermediate cross-reference temporary file lpr(1) spooler /usr/ucb/macxrf cross-reference post-processor SEE ALSO PDP-11 MACRO-11 Language Reference Manual , Digital Equip ment Corp. Order No. AA-5075A-TC, August 1977. New UCB M11 Manual , notional document by Jim Reeds. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa at trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From edgee at cyberpass.net Mon Jan 17 00:19:26 2000 From: edgee at cyberpass.net (Ed G.) Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2000 10:19:26 -0400 Subject: macro-11 for V7-Unix In-Reply-To: <200001142310.KAA06954@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> References: <387F7844.292A1DEC@fh-jena.de> from "Prof. Karl Kleine" at "Jan 14, 2000 8:25:56 pm" Message-ID: <200001161520.KAA10760@renoir.op.net> > > once upon a time, it was around 1981, I used a pdp11/45 with V7 > > (I started my life with Unix with V6 in 1977/8), doing some research > > in compilers, portability, dense code schemes for interpreters. > > For that I used a port of DEC MACRO-11 to Unix. There was also > > an associated linker and the package offered also Fortran, though > > I didnt't use the latter. As far as I remember, this port was > > done at Harvard and distributed to some academic sites. I was > > at the University of Nijmegen, The Netherlands, at that time. I'd suggest contacting Professor Harry Lewis at Harvard (lewis at harvard.edu). We used Macro-11 for Unix in his "Intro to Data Structures" course in 1980. Since Professor Lewis is now a dean, this may take some persistence on your part, but I remember Professor Lewis as a decent sort (though busy, even in 1980) and I'm sure he'd be willing to help once he knows who you are. BTW, I did verify that this was Macro-11 for Unix. After some rummaging I was able to find (wonder of wonders!) my old "HRSTS Macro; Macro-11 Second Edition; 1/5/76" manual complete with Unix man pages for 'macro', 'linkr' and 'libr.' Best of luck. Edgee PS: I've just read Tim Shoppa's post; the man pages contained in his email are identical to those in my manual (i.e., looks like you want m11). From joerg at begemot.org Tue Jan 18 07:38:14 2000 From: joerg at begemot.org (Joerg B. Micheel) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 10:38:14 +1300 Subject: macro-11 for V7-Unix In-Reply-To: <000114195253.20200992@trailing-edge.com>; from Tim Shoppa on Fri, Jan 14, 2000 at 07:52:53PM -0500 References: <000114195253.20200992@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <20000118103814.A11188@begemot.org> On Fri, Jan 14, 2000 at 07:52:53PM -0500, Tim Shoppa wrote: > As the possibly only member of this list who still makes a living writing > MACRO-11 code, I'm gonna take two shots at this: I believe the SEP RELAG-3 system (www.sep.de) is based on LSI-11, not sure it is written in assembler, though. Perhaps Torsten could tell ... Joerg -- Joerg B. Micheel Email: Begemot Computer Associates Phone: +64 7 8562148 40 Masters Avenue, Hillcrest Fax: +64 7 8562148 Hamilton, New Zealand Pager: +64 868 38222 Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA19013 for pups-liszt; Tue, 18 Jan 2000 16:18:09 +1100 (EST) From cdl at mpl.ucsd.edu Tue Jan 18 15:17:43 2000 From: cdl at mpl.ucsd.edu (Carl Lowenstein) Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 21:17:43 -0800 (PST) Subject: macro-11 for V7-Unix Message-ID: <200001180517.VAA04673@chiton.ucsd.edu> > From owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Fri Jan 14 17:09 PST 2000 > Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 19:52:53 -0500 > From: Tim Shoppa > To: PUPS at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au > Subject: Re: macro-11 for V7-Unix > > >In article by Prof. Karl Kleine: > >> once upon a time, it was around 1981, I used a pdp11/45 with V7 > >> (I started my life with Unix with V6 in 1977/8), doing some research > >> in compilers, portability, dense code schemes for interpreters. > >> For that I used a port of DEC MACRO-11 to Unix. There was also > >>... > >> I have the Supnik emulator to play with, and I wonder if this > >> macro-11 and linker is still somewhere around. I would love to > >> prepare a few examples for my lessons here (I'm a professor in > > >Hi Karl, I think this came up on Usenet recently. No I don't know > >of a port of Macro-11 to Unix. I'll pass this on to our mailing list, > >just in case anybody knows of it. > > As the possibly only member of this list who still makes a living writing > MACRO-11 code, I'm gonna take two shots at this: > > One possibility is the "as11" assembler from Xinu. It's a fairly portable > PDP-11 assembler, but doesn't have all the real macro facilities of > real Macro-11. You can find this at > > http://metalab.unc.edu/pub/academic/computer-science/history/pdp-11/xinu/unpacked/src/cmd/as11/ > > The other (and more likely) possibility is the "m11" macro package from > Harvard, which *does* come with a linker ("l11") as Karl described. The > full distribution is in the 2.11BSD source tree, at "/usr/src/new/m11". > > Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa at trailing-edge.com Let me toss in another possibility. Around that time (late 70's - early 80's) we (Marine Physical Lab) were running an RT-11 emulator on a couple of our PDP-11 Unix systems. Product of Human Computing Resources, as I remember. Once you can emulate RT-11, you can run all of its CUSPs: assembler, linker, Fortran, what have you. Assuming, of course, that you have appropriate licenses etc. We did it to get a reasonably capable Fortran compiler with our Unix. carl carl lowenstein marine physical lab u.c. san diego {decvax|ucbvax} !ucsd!mpl!cdl cdl at mpl.ucsd.edu clowenstein at ucsd.edu From jcrosenberg at earthlink.net Thu Jan 20 01:06:45 2000 From: jcrosenberg at earthlink.net (John Rosenberg) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 10:06:45 -0500 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?B?tVZBWA==?= Message-ID: <004801bf628e$d297b920$c469fea9@home> Please do not trash me on this one! I think that 4000 series µVAX is just a little more than I need. Would anyone care to swap this puppy for a table-top PDP-8 or PDP-11 of any sort? I have a working machine & keyboard; it wants your basic RGB with or without sync (i.e. sync on green). Whaddadya think? Happy new year! --JCR -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: smime.p7s Type: application/x-pkcs7-signature Size: 3321 bytes Desc: not available URL: From wkt at cs.adfa.edu.au Thu Jan 20 09:54:33 2000 From: wkt at cs.adfa.edu.au (Warren Toomey) Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 10:54:33 +1100 (EST) Subject: Recent PUPS Archive additions Message-ID: <200001192354.KAA40551@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Hi all, Several new things have arrived in the PUPS Archive, so I thought I'd pass on details of what and where. Tim Shoppa has found & recovered the tapes from the following Usenix conferences: 1983, 1987, 1988 and 1989. Their contents are now in Applications/Shoppa_Tapes in the archive. Dennis Ritchie has sent in two DECtape images, s1-bits and s2-bits. s2-bits dates from 1972, and contains several 1st Edition binaries and the binaries of an early C compiler. s1-bits is part of a disk image, but I've been able to recover some of its contents: some application source in both assembly and C. It seems to date from early 1973. Both tapes are in Distributions/research/1972_stuff in the archive. By using the C compiler binaries on s2-bits, I've been able to recompile the two primeval C compilers whose source is in Applications/Early_C_Compilers and which are described by Dennis on his web page at http://cm.bell-labs.com/who/dmr/primevalC.html Most recently, Dennis has also unearthed the on-line manual pages for 3rd and 4th Edition UNIX. They are in Distributions/research/Dennis_v3 and Distributions/research/Dennis_v3, respectively. It still looks like all kernel code before 5th Edition is gone, except for the nsys kernel code in Distributions/research/Dennis_v3 and a few bits on paper that Dennis has. Cheers, Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id EAA33093 for pups-liszt; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 04:31:59 +1100 (EST) From apg at execpc.com Fri Jan 21 03:25:39 2000 From: apg at execpc.com (A. P. Garcia) Date: 20 Jan 2000 17:25:39 -0000 Subject: CD-R request Message-ID: <20000120172539.477.qmail@playground.lan> > Several new things have arrived in the PUPS Archive, so I thought > I'd pass on details of what and where. Could someone please burn a new snapshot of the archive for me? I'm happy to compensate you, of course. Thanks, Phil Garcia Milwaukee, Wisconsin, USA From wkt at cs.adfa.edu.au Fri Jan 21 12:16:40 2000 From: wkt at cs.adfa.edu.au (Warren Toomey) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 13:16:40 +1100 (EST) Subject: Emulators In-Reply-To: <034201bf63ad$8ad414b0$5d01a8c0@p2350> from emanuel stiebler at "Jan 20, 2000 6:19:18 pm" Message-ID: <200001210216.NAA53527@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> In article by emanuel stiebler: > Hi, > Anybody here, who made some benchmarks of the different simulators (supnik, > apout, ...) > > What I'm looking for is something like: > supnik version xxx on pentium 2 350 MHz using linux, is xxx times faster > than a 11/73. > > cheers & thanks, > emanuel Here's my no-numbers-just-gut-feelings of the various PDP-11 emulators. John Wilson's Ersatz is probably the fastest; it's written in assembly code, and so gains a fair bit that way. Second would be the Begemot emulator. They've unrolled the instruction decode loop heavily, and that helps a lot. Bob Supnik's emulator would be the slowest of the three. However, it's still not that slow, may 1/3 the speed of Ersatz. Apout can't be compared to the above 3 emulators, because it doesn't emulate peripherals nor supervisor mode. User-mode instructions run at about the same speed as Supnik's emulator, but system calls are done by native code. The sole benchmark I have is: FreeBSD identifies my desktop box as Pentium II/Xeon/Celeron (348.93-MHz 686-class CPU). Using Apout, I can compile the 2.11BSD GENERIC kernel in 4 minutes 15 seconds. I'll try building Supnik and Begemot and getting comparative results. Last comment: all the simulators have strengths & shortcomings, and that applies not just to ease of use but also to CPU, I/O performance etc. You really have to try them all & find the one that suits you. Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA35744 for pups-liszt; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 13:44:42 +1100 (EST) From joerg at begemot.org Fri Jan 21 12:45:24 2000 From: joerg at begemot.org (Joerg B. Micheel) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 15:45:24 +1300 Subject: Emulators In-Reply-To: <200001210216.NAA53527@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>; from Warren Toomey on Fri, Jan 21, 2000 at 01:16:40PM +1100 References: <034201bf63ad$8ad414b0$5d01a8c0@p2350> <200001210216.NAA53527@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Message-ID: <20000121154524.A71774@begemot.org> On Fri, Jan 21, 2000 at 01:16:40PM +1100, Warren Toomey wrote: > In article by emanuel stiebler: > > Hi, > > Anybody here, who made some benchmarks of the different simulators (supnik, > > apout, ...) > > > > What I'm looking for is something like: > > supnik version xxx on pentium 2 350 MHz using linux, is xxx times faster > > than a 11/73. Us too! :-) The problem is that it doesn't scale that simple. Each and every instruction has the parsing overhead. Next comes execution overhead. You'll find that the parsing is pretty constant, no matter whether it is a NOP or some sophisticated MUL command. The execution speed varies heavily, very often it is alot faster than the original hardware. IO has seen a tremendous speedup, we can benefit here from todays hardware alot. Just remeber how long it took to get a prompt or echo when hitting the keyboard. As a result, the original feeling of the real machine is lost, very unfortunate. As a rough summary, simple commands do not improve (much), whereas everything complex speeds up with the emulator. Harti has done quite a bit of testing on different instructions and compared them to an LSI11/73 (KDJ11A). The emulator was run on a i486 at the time. Have a look at the p11 distribution, it should be in Tests somewhere. Regards, Joerg -- Joerg B. Micheel Email: Begemot Computer Associates Phone: +64 7 8562148 40 Masters Avenue, Hillcrest Fax: +64 7 8562148 Hamilton, New Zealand Pager: +64 868 38222 Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id DAA39169 for pups-liszt; Sat, 22 Jan 2000 03:08:07 +1100 (EST) From rdkeys at unity.ncsu.edu Sat Jan 22 02:07:37 2000 From: rdkeys at unity.ncsu.edu (rdkeys at unity.ncsu.edu) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 11:07:37 -0500 (EST) Subject: Anyone know what a Masscomp 5400 (54S-01) is? Message-ID: <200001211607.LAA12512@uni02du.unity.ncsu.edu> On a surplus junket, today, I ran across a 2 dollar chassis that was listed as a Masscomp 5400 (54S-01) computer. It looked rather like a DECish based thing with dual height cards, like some sort of laboratory digital aquisition machine. On the long-shot that it is some sort of PDP-11ish thing, anyone have any recollection or pointers to any info on that kind of a Masscomp machine? Thanks Bob Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id DAA42516 for pups-liszt; Sat, 22 Jan 2000 03:45:56 +1100 (EST) From tfb at cley.com Sat Jan 22 02:44:34 2000 From: tfb at cley.com (Tim Bradshaw) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 16:44:34 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Anyone know what a Masscomp 5400 (54S-01) is? In-Reply-To: <200001211607.LAA12512@uni02du.unity.ncsu.edu> References: <200001211607.LAA12512@uni02du.unity.ncsu.edu> Message-ID: <14472.36082.530024.331321@cley.com> * rdkeys wrote: > On a surplus junket, today, I ran across a 2 dollar chassis that was > listed as a Masscomp 5400 (54S-01) computer. It looked rather like > a DECish based thing with dual height cards, like some sort of laboratory > digital aquisition machine. On the long-shot that it is some sort of > PDP-11ish thing, anyone have any recollection or pointers to any info > on that kind of a Masscomp machine? Masscomps were 68k based machines, they had a whole bunch of stuff for real-time and data-acquistion type stuff. They ran something called RTU -- real-time Unix -- which was a weirdo sysv / BSD hybrid, not fun to use. If the 5400 is the machine I remember it's a 68020 machine but it may have a lot of cards for other stuff in. If it *is* the machine we had it was deeply unreliable. Masscomp got bought by someone else later on but I forget who, so they sometimes get badged as some other make. I would run away, fast. --tim From grog at lemis.com Sat Jan 22 13:36:55 2000 From: grog at lemis.com (Greg Lehey) Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2000 09:06:55 +0530 Subject: Anyone know what a Masscomp 5400 (54S-01) is? In-Reply-To: <14472.36082.530024.331321@cley.com>; from tfb@cley.com on Fri, Jan 21, 2000 at 04:44:34PM +0000 References: <200001211607.LAA12512@uni02du.unity.ncsu.edu> <14472.36082.530024.331321@cley.com> Message-ID: <20000122090655.B455@mojave.worldwide.lemis.com> On Friday, 21 January 2000 at 16:44:34 +0000, Tim Bradshaw wrote: > * rdkeys wrote: >> On a surplus junket, today, I ran across a 2 dollar chassis that was >> listed as a Masscomp 5400 (54S-01) computer. It looked rather like >> a DECish based thing with dual height cards, like some sort of laboratory >> digital aquisition machine. On the long-shot that it is some sort of >> PDP-11ish thing, anyone have any recollection or pointers to any info >> on that kind of a Masscomp machine? > > Masscomps were 68k based machines, they had a whole bunch of stuff for > real-time and data-acquistion type stuff. They ran something called > RTU -- real-time Unix -- which was a weirdo sysv / BSD hybrid, not fun > to use. If the 5400 is the machine I remember it's a 68020 machine > but it may have a lot of cards for other stuff in. If it *is* the > machine we had it was deeply unreliable. Masscomp got bought by > someone else later on but I forget who, so they sometimes get badged > as some other make. > > I would run away, fast. On the other hand, IIRC this was the machine which was the basis for the Egan/Teixeira (sp?) book on writing UNIX drivers. It might be amusing for that reason alone. If it's functional and you have the space, you probably won't regret the $2 you spend for it. Greg -- Finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers From jcrosenberg at earthlink.net Mon Jan 24 07:29:05 2000 From: jcrosenberg at earthlink.net (John Rosenberg) Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2000 16:29:05 -0500 Subject: Anyone know what a Masscomp 5400 (54S-01) is? References: <200001211607.LAA12512@uni02du.unity.ncsu.edu> <14472.36082.530024.331321@cley.com> Message-ID: <00c501bf65e8$e55600a0$c469fea9@home> Yeah, that's the machine/software. Terrible software, if an honest attempt no doubt. Belongs in the Computer Museum. (It's such a pain to use that I would not bother, that is.) ----- Original Message ----- From: Tim Bradshaw To: Cc: Sent: Friday, January 21, 2000 11:44 AM Subject: Re: Anyone know what a Masscomp 5400 (54S-01) is? > * rdkeys wrote: > > On a surplus junket, today, I ran across a 2 dollar chassis that was > > listed as a Masscomp 5400 (54S-01) computer. It looked rather like > > a DECish based thing with dual height cards, like some sort of laboratory > > digital aquisition machine. On the long-shot that it is some sort of > > PDP-11ish thing, anyone have any recollection or pointers to any info > > on that kind of a Masscomp machine? > > Masscomps were 68k based machines, they had a whole bunch of stuff for > real-time and data-acquistion type stuff. They ran something called > RTU -- real-time Unix -- which was a weirdo sysv / BSD hybrid, not fun > to use. If the 5400 is the machine I remember it's a 68020 machine > but it may have a lot of cards for other stuff in. If it *is* the > machine we had it was deeply unreliable. Masscomp got bought by > someone else later on but I forget who, so they sometimes get badged > as some other make. > > I would run away, fast. > > --tim > > -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: smime.p7s Type: application/x-pkcs7-signature Size: 3321 bytes Desc: not available URL: From apg at execpc.com Mon Jan 24 08:00:41 2000 From: apg at execpc.com (A. P. Garcia) Date: 23 Jan 2000 22:00:41 -0000 Subject: archive request Message-ID: <20000123220041.169.qmail@playground.lan> ping >From owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Thu Jan 20 22:31:56 2000 Date: 20 Jan 2000 17:25:39 -0000 From: "A. P. Garcia" To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: CD-R request > Several new things have arrived in the PUPS Archive, so I thought > I'd pass on details of what and where. Could someone please burn a new snapshot of the archive for me? I'm happy to compensate you, of course. Thanks, Phil Garcia Milwaukee, Wisconsin, USA Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA01223 for pups-liszt; Mon, 24 Jan 2000 15:48:16 +1100 (EST) From achupahi at uic.rsu.ru Sat Jan 22 19:26:17 2000 From: achupahi at uic.rsu.ru (Alexey Chupahin) Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2000 12:26:17 +0300 Subject: Y2k for Unix References: <200001210318.OAA54327@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Message-ID: <388977B9.34055CD2@uic.rnd.runnet.ru> Hello Warren, I make date2 program now for BSD and Venix. I just send it for you. This is not best program, only Beta version. Please note me if you find bugs. To working, it calculates JD time, so algorithm is not best, it requires floating instructions. JD time is very useful for Astronomicals (my second hobby is Astronomy). Other thing - ctime use local time, while stime Grinvich time, if I remember. So you may need to add a number of hours to into the source string to see exact time you entered: Time=Time*3600L*24 + (hour+4)*3600L + minutes*60 + sec; ^ Venix was partically Y2k. I test "find" command with date2 and find (sillogizme!) it fine.:-). Seems, Venix with new date2 is full Y2k now. But BSD and other systems may have a number of non Y2k utilites. I don't like BSD's ls program for example. It seems work correctly, but I wish to test it again. The one way is to copy executable ls from Venix, it works fine on BSD or other way - I may fix ls sources and recompile it. I'm making Y2k features ( that is hardly then for Unix ) for DEC RT-11. To make this, I use better algorithm to calculate time and better interface, and if you are interested, I'll port it to Unix too. I'd like to port Y2k features into Unix 6,7 ,but unfortunatly, it is very difficult to use "ed" for me. :-) And I don't know how to put files into Unix 6 RL disk - it hasn't "tar". May be, we can do well-organized work to prepeare old Unix system to use in 21Centure? We can make full test all utilites for all versions and fix bugs to make Unixes as Y2k ready-to-use systems? Alexey P.S. I send you date2.c - sources and executable date2 for BSD and Venix both. To use it, one can copy date2 into /usr/bin or replace old standard unuseful /bin/date Usage: $date2 year month day [hour min [sec]] for example: $date 2000 1 22 12 15 ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ year month day hour min date2 without arguments prints date and time. -- IC~XC NI~KA +------------------------+ | "I WAS living, | | I AM living and | | I WILL BE living!" | | | | DEC PDP-11... | +------------------------+ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Date2 Type: application/octet-stream Size: 9110 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- /* Y2k date program for all Unix systems V0.2.2000, beta version. (c) Alex Chupakhin, 17-Jun-2000 tested on Venix, 2BSD Next better version will comes soon. */ #include main(argc,argv) int argc; char **argv; { int year,month,day,hour,minutes,sec; long mjd(); long Time,time(); char *ctime(); if (argc==1) { Time=time(); printf("%s",ctime(&Time) ); exit(); } if (argc<4) { printf("Y2k date\nusage\n%s year month day [hour min] [sec]\n", argv[0]);exit(); } year =atoi(argv[1]); month=atoi(argv[2]); day =atoi(argv[3]); if(argc>=6) { hour = atoi(argv[4]); minutes= atoi(argv[5]); } if(argc==7) sec = atoi(argv[6]); Time = mjd(year,month,day)-mjd(1970,1,1); Time = Time*3600L*24 + (hour+4)*3600L + minutes*60 + sec; printf("%sJD=%D\n",ctime(&Time),mjd(year,month,day)); stime(&Time); } long mjd(y,m,d) int y,m,d; { long a,a4,e,c,b; if(m<=2) { y--; m+=12; } a=(long) y/100; a4=a/4; b=2-a+a4; c = (long) (365.25*y); e = (long) (30.6001*(m+1)); return ( c+e+b+d+1720994L ); } From wkt at cs.adfa.edu.au Wed Jan 26 10:52:28 2000 From: wkt at cs.adfa.edu.au (Warren Toomey) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 11:52:28 +1100 (EST) Subject: More Mail from Alexey: anohrt Unix for Pro350 Message-ID: <200001260052.LAA08670@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Hi all, I've received another e-mail from Alexey about some Y2K software for Venix and 2BSD. He's also given me a copy of a Russian UNIX called Demos. This is based on something like V7M, but Alexey says that its better than Venix. I've only got a tar file with bins & src, no disk images. Anyone with a pro350 or 380 interested in looking at this? Anyway, here's his latest e-mail and Date.c. Warren From: Alexey Chupahin Hello Warren, I just receive letter from John Rosenberg. He recommended me to resend date2 program. May be, my previous letter didn't go to you, but to John? I just try to resend you date2. The Date2 is good for first. Now I'm hacking RT-11 DIR (analogue ls in Unix :-), unlike to Unix one, DIR is very bad for Y2k.) program with system library SYSLIB.OBJ. When I finish it, I just try to test and fix BSD system. Unfortunatly, I haven't any documents described BSD library with utilites to see what subroutines/utilites to be needed to fix. May be, I can find it on the Web? But I have documentation for Inmos (Russian version7). I use it to see in first time. Unlike to poor (but very good!) standard Version 7, Russian one has 2 screen editors, including vi, and one Russian multiscreen edit RED, editor like small MSWord for Pro, screen menu-making/control programs and library, graphic, bisness programs and libraries for Pro. Unfortunatly, I have only documentation, no any distributive... When I finish BSD ( I hope to will finish it soon ) I'll just go to Unix7 and 6. I've got it from your site yet, Version 7 is booted Ok... May be, vi from BSD still works in Unix7? > Also, I am still not sure what to do about Demos. It's a pity that > you don't have a bootable disk image for it. Ok... Demos was very good-organized Unix for Pro-350/380... more good then Inmos, how I'm hear... Unfortunatly, I'm not rich student, but I wish to small used Alpha for a long time. I find ready to use Multia in Moscow for 450$. In Russia we have a nearly 18$ per month (Crysis :-( ) I have 360$ yet. May be, anybody can help me for 90$... ;-) regards, Alex -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Date2.c Type: *unknown*/x-csh Size: 1025 bytes Desc: Date2.c URL: From grog at lemis.com Thu Jan 27 10:33:21 2000 From: grog at lemis.com (Greg Lehey) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 11:03:21 +1030 Subject: Sun release source code for Solaris 8 Message-ID: <20000127110321.I53307@freebie.lemis.com> Sun's releasing the source code to Solaris. Take a look at http://www.sun.com/software/solaris/source/index.html for more details. The conditions look rather like the SCO ancient UNIX licences, but it's *cheaper* ($75, which includes deliverables from Sun). Warren, is this ammunition to lobby SCO to drop the prices of Ancient UNIX licenses? Greg -- Finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA19237 for pups-liszt; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 12:08:01 +1100 (EST) From lennox at alcita.com Thu Jan 27 11:00:57 2000 From: lennox at alcita.com (Mirian Crzig Lennox) Date: 26 Jan 2000 20:00:57 -0500 Subject: Sun release source code for Solaris 8 In-Reply-To: Greg Lehey's message of "Thu, 27 Jan 2000 11:03:21 +1030" References: <20000127110321.I53307@freebie.lemis.com> Message-ID: Greg Lehey writes: > > The conditions look rather like the SCO ancient UNIX licences, but > it's *cheaper* ($75, which includes deliverables from Sun). Warren, > is this ammunition to lobby SCO to drop the prices of Ancient UNIX > licenses? After looking at the site, it seems as though Sun is trying to prevent licence holders from sharing code with other licence holders. If this is true, it would certainly make the Solaris licence less desirable to hobbyists than the ancient UNIX licence, unfortunately. --Mirian Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA19344 for pups-liszt; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 12:21:43 +1100 (EST) From joerg at begemot.org Thu Jan 27 11:23:07 2000 From: joerg at begemot.org (Joerg B. Micheel) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 14:23:07 +1300 Subject: Sun release source code for Solaris 8 In-Reply-To: ; from Mirian Crzig Lennox on Wed, Jan 26, 2000 at 08:00:57PM -0500 References: <20000127110321.I53307@freebie.lemis.com> Message-ID: <20000127142307.A98693@begemot.org> On Wed, Jan 26, 2000 at 08:00:57PM -0500, Mirian Crzig Lennox wrote: > Greg Lehey writes: > > > > The conditions look rather like the SCO ancient UNIX licences, but > > it's *cheaper* ($75, which includes deliverables from Sun). Warren, > > is this ammunition to lobby SCO to drop the prices of Ancient UNIX > > licenses? > > After looking at the site, it seems as though Sun is trying to prevent > licence holders from sharing code with other licence holders. If this > is true, it would certainly make the Solaris licence less desirable to > hobbyists than the ancient UNIX licence, unfortunately. You're right, as long as patches do contain portions of Solaris. Everything that does so has to funnel trough Sun first, this can be done by putting it onto their secure server. The restriction is that you can't share it freely, everything must be visible to Sun. This is slightly different from the original educational license, which allowed sharing with peers bound by the same license conditions. I think, popularity of Solaris might rather be restricted by its performance. I have run Solaris x86 on my desktop for a while for evaluation purposes. I don't think you could tune it easily to become as fast as a regular Linux or *BSD system. Apart from that, it certainly is the dinosaur solution of the decade. Joerg -- Joerg B. Micheel Email: Begemot Computer Associates Phone: +64 7 8562148 40 Masters Avenue, Hillcrest Fax: +64 7 8562148 Hamilton, New Zealand Pager: +64 868 38222 Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA19380 for pups-liszt; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 12:25:03 +1100 (EST) From emu at ecubics.com Thu Jan 27 11:28:28 2000 From: emu at ecubics.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 18:28:28 -0700 Subject: Sun release source code for Solaris 8 References: <20000127110321.I53307@freebie.lemis.com> Message-ID: <01ea01bf6865$d7844a20$5d01a8c0@p2350> ---- Original Message ----- From: Mirian Crzig Lennox To: UNIX Heritage Society Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2000 18:00 Subject: Re: Sun release source code for Solaris 8 > Greg Lehey writes: > > > > The conditions look rather like the SCO ancient UNIX licences, but > > it's *cheaper* ($75, which includes deliverables from Sun). Warren, > > is this ammunition to lobby SCO to drop the prices of Ancient UNIX > > licenses? > > After looking at the site, it seems as though Sun is trying to prevent > licence holders from sharing code with other licence holders. If this > is true, it would certainly make the Solaris licence less desirable to > hobbyists than the ancient UNIX licence, unfortunately. They don't "prevent" it, it seems that it is always steered by/at SUN. >From the Webpage: > If you want to make your source code modifications available to other Solaris > source code licensees, you can do so by passing the changes back to Sun, and > Sun will then post them to a secure website that you and other registered users > may access. cheers, emanuel Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA19666 for pups-liszt; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 12:51:11 +1100 (EST) From sms at moe.2bsd.com Thu Jan 27 11:42:54 2000 From: sms at moe.2bsd.com (Steven M. Schultz) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 17:42:54 -0800 (PST) Subject: Sun release source code for Solaris 8 Message-ID: <200001270142.RAA00523@moe.2bsd.com> > From: "Joerg B. Micheel" > I think, popularity of Solaris might rather be restricted by its > performance. I have run Solaris x86 on my desktop for a while for Agreed. I have run Solaris (only up thru 2.6 though) in its "native" environment (Sun hardware) and even there the performance is not anything one would write home about. The difference between SunOS 4.1.x and Solaris 2.x is dramatic in favor on the older leaner system. I have not run Solarix x86 though but have heard from others (before this) that its performance is quite a bit less than a BSD* system. Steven Schultz sms at moe.2bsd.com Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA20265 for pups-liszt; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 15:28:36 +1100 (EST) From grog at lemis.com Thu Jan 27 14:27:36 2000 From: grog at lemis.com (Greg Lehey) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 14:57:36 +1030 Subject: Sun release source code for Solaris 8 In-Reply-To: References: <20000127110321.I53307@freebie.lemis.com> Message-ID: <20000127145736.Q53307@freebie.lemis.com> On Wednesday, 26 January 2000 at 20:00:57 -0500, Mirian Crzig Lennox wrote: > Greg Lehey writes: >> >> The conditions look rather like the SCO ancient UNIX licences, but >> it's *cheaper* ($75, which includes deliverables from Sun). Warren, >> is this ammunition to lobby SCO to drop the prices of Ancient UNIX >> licenses? > > After looking at the site, it seems as though Sun is trying to > prevent licence holders from sharing code with other licence > holders. I'm not 100% sure what they mean here. Nobody can stop you distributing software you wrote as long as it doesn't contain proprietary Sun code. You could do that with diffs. > If this is true, it would certainly make the Solaris licence less > desirable to hobbyists than the ancient UNIX licence, unfortunately. I think it is anyway. For hobby purposes, I'd much rather use either 4.4BSD (for modern usage) or one of the old UNIXes. Greg -- Finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA20252 for pups-liszt; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 15:26:27 +1100 (EST) From grog at lemis.com Thu Jan 27 14:26:02 2000 From: grog at lemis.com (Greg Lehey) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 14:56:02 +1030 Subject: Sun release source code for Solaris 8 In-Reply-To: <200001270142.RAA00523@moe.2bsd.com> References: <200001270142.RAA00523@moe.2bsd.com> Message-ID: <20000127145602.P53307@freebie.lemis.com> On Wednesday, 26 January 2000 at 17:42:54 -0800, Steven M. Schultz wrote: >> From: "Joerg B. Micheel" >> I think, popularity of Solaris might rather be restricted by its >> performance. I have run Solaris x86 on my desktop for a while for > > Agreed. I have run Solaris (only up thru 2.6 though) in its > "native" environment (Sun hardware) and even there the performance > is not anything one would write home about. The difference between > SunOS 4.1.x and Solaris 2.x is dramatic in favor on the older leaner > system. That's my experience too, but it may not be typical. For a large system with a large number of processes (e.g. ftp server) the comparison could be very different. > I have not run Solarix x86 though but have heard from others (before > this) that its performance is quite a bit less than a BSD* system. Ditto. I have a CD somewhere that I just couldn't be bothered installing. Greg -- Finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA20540 for pups-liszt; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 16:03:31 +1100 (EST) From joerg at begemot.org Thu Jan 27 15:04:06 2000 From: joerg at begemot.org (Joerg B. Micheel) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 18:04:06 +1300 Subject: Sun release source code for Solaris 8 In-Reply-To: <20000127145602.P53307@freebie.lemis.com>; from Greg Lehey on Thu, Jan 27, 2000 at 02:56:02PM +1030 References: <200001270142.RAA00523@moe.2bsd.com> <20000127145602.P53307@freebie.lemis.com> Message-ID: <20000127180406.A574@begemot.org> On Thu, Jan 27, 2000 at 02:56:02PM +1030, Greg Lehey wrote: > On Wednesday, 26 January 2000 at 17:42:54 -0800, Steven M. Schultz wrote: > >> From: "Joerg B. Micheel" > >> I think, popularity of Solaris might rather be restricted by its > >> performance. I have run Solaris x86 on my desktop for a while for > > > > Agreed. I have run Solaris (only up thru 2.6 though) in its > > "native" environment (Sun hardware) and even there the performance > > is not anything one would write home about. The difference between > > SunOS 4.1.x and Solaris 2.x is dramatic in favor on the older leaner > > system. > > That's my experience too, but it may not be typical. For a large > system with a large number of processes (e.g. ftp server) the > comparison could be very different. That would make quite an interesting test. How much does ftp.cdrom.com gain by running FreeBSD instead of Solaris ? Joerg -- Joerg B. Micheel Email: Begemot Computer Associates Phone: +64 7 8562148 40 Masters Avenue, Hillcrest Fax: +64 7 8562148 Hamilton, New Zealand Pager: +64 868 38222 Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA20597 for pups-liszt; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 16:09:02 +1100 (EST) From grog at lemis.com Thu Jan 27 15:08:20 2000 From: grog at lemis.com (Greg Lehey) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 15:38:20 +1030 Subject: Sun release source code for Solaris 8 In-Reply-To: <20000127180406.A574@begemot.org> References: <200001270142.RAA00523@moe.2bsd.com> <20000127145602.P53307@freebie.lemis.com> <20000127180406.A574@begemot.org> Message-ID: <20000127153820.T53307@freebie.lemis.com> On Thursday, 27 January 2000 at 18:04:06 +1300, Joerg Micheel wrote: > On Thu, Jan 27, 2000 at 02:56:02PM +1030, Greg Lehey wrote: >> On Wednesday, 26 January 2000 at 17:42:54 -0800, Steven M. Schultz wrote: >>>> From: "Joerg B. Micheel" >>>> I think, popularity of Solaris might rather be restricted by its >>>> performance. I have run Solaris x86 on my desktop for a while for >>> >>> Agreed. I have run Solaris (only up thru 2.6 though) in its >>> "native" environment (Sun hardware) and even there the performance >>> is not anything one would write home about. The difference between >>> SunOS 4.1.x and Solaris 2.x is dramatic in favor on the older leaner >>> system. >> >> That's my experience too, but it may not be typical. For a large >> system with a large number of processes (e.g. ftp server) the >> comparison could be very different. > > That would make quite an interesting test. How much does > ftp.cdrom.com gain by running FreeBSD instead of Solaris ? Good question. My guess is that Solaris 2 just couldn't handle that many connections, but it compete reasonably well with fewer connections (say 1000). I'll copy the FreeBSD chat people and see what they think. For -chat: Sun have announced their intention to release the source code of Solaris [2.]8. We're discussing what this means. See http://www.sun.com/software/solaris/source/ for more details. Greg -- Finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA22317 for pups-liszt; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 00:02:40 +1100 (EST) From jcm at dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org Thu Jan 27 23:02:23 2000 From: jcm at dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (Jonathon McKitrick) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 13:02:23 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Sun release source code for Solaris 8 In-Reply-To: <20000127153820.T53307@freebie.lemis.com> Message-ID: Message too convoluted to tell who actually wrote this....but i believe Greg wrote the second group of lines.... >> That would make quite an interesting test. How much does >> ftp.cdrom.com gain by running FreeBSD instead of Solaris ? > >Good question. My guess is that Solaris 2 just couldn't handle that >many connections, but it compete reasonably well with fewer >connections (say 1000). I'll copy the FreeBSD chat people and see >what they think. Interestingly, i noticed recently that the response time on usa.net seemed much slower. It appears consistently so, either by ppp connection or by network/T1 line. A few months ago, netcraft showed that they were running FreeBSD. Guess what they are running now? Yup... SOlaris. I dropped them a line saying i noticed the speed difference. -=> jm <=- "I've done questionable things, also extraordinary things.... Revel in your time!" Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA22669 for pups-liszt; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 01:26:55 +1100 (EST) From tls at rek.tjls.com Fri Jan 28 00:26:41 2000 From: tls at rek.tjls.com (Thor Lancelot Simon) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 09:26:41 -0500 Subject: Sun release source code for Solaris 8 In-Reply-To: <20000127180406.A574@begemot.org>; from joerg@begemot.org on Thu, Jan 27, 2000 at 06:04:06PM +1300 References: <200001270142.RAA00523@moe.2bsd.com> <20000127145602.P53307@freebie.lemis.com> <20000127180406.A574@begemot.org> Message-ID: <20000127092641.A16017@rek.tjls.com> On Thu, Jan 27, 2000 at 06:04:06PM +1300, Joerg B. Micheel wrote: > On Thu, Jan 27, 2000 at 02:56:02PM +1030, Greg Lehey wrote: > > On Wednesday, 26 January 2000 at 17:42:54 -0800, Steven M. Schultz wrote: > > >> From: "Joerg B. Micheel" > > >> I think, popularity of Solaris might rather be restricted by its > > >> performance. I have run Solaris x86 on my desktop for a while for > > > > > > Agreed. I have run Solaris (only up thru 2.6 though) in its > > > "native" environment (Sun hardware) and even there the performance > > > is not anything one would write home about. The difference between > > > SunOS 4.1.x and Solaris 2.x is dramatic in favor on the older leaner > > > system. > > > > That's my experience too, but it may not be typical. For a large > > system with a large number of processes (e.g. ftp server) the > > comparison could be very different. > > That would make quite an interesting test. How much does ftp.cdrom.com > gain by running FreeBSD instead of Solaris ? How can anyone know that it gains anything at all? To begin with, it's never *run* Solaris, so there's no way to draw any kind of meaningful comparison. The dirty little secret of Linux and *BSD is that their ascendance has been tightly coupled to Sun's utter inability to build fast, cheap uniprocessor machines. Any way you slice it, a single-processor top-of- the-line x86 box is just going to be a *lot* faster and cheaper than Sun's entry-level multiprocessor. The great gamble they made was to turn their kernel into a highly-multithreaded thing of beauty -- but that *has* to cost some (even some small) amount of uniprocessor performance, and since they can't build cheap multiprocesors that are as fast as the high end of the commodity uniprocessor x86 boxes, for a lot of applications they lose. Even on a 2- or 4- processor machine, Solaris is demonstrably far faster than *BSD or Linux for many workloads. But you can buy a single-processor x86 that's cheaper than Sun's 2- or 4- processor box now, which is why people run Linux or FreeBSD or NetBSD. There is still a point at which the only way to get enough performance is to add more processors, and at that point Solaris still wins, and will for the forseeable (by me, at least) future. -- Thor Lancelot Simon tls at rek.tjls.com "And where do all these highways go, now that we are free?" Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA23125 for pups-liszt; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 02:53:03 +1100 (EST) From emu at ecubics.com Fri Jan 28 01:49:19 2000 From: emu at ecubics.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 08:49:19 -0700 Subject: Sun release source code for Solaris 8 References: <200001270142.RAA00523@moe.2bsd.com> <20000127145602.P53307@freebie.lemis.com> <20000127180406.A574@begemot.org> <20000127092641.A16017@rek.tjls.com> Message-ID: <002101bf68de$142f8430$5d01a8c0@p2350> ----- Original Message ----- From: Thor Lancelot Simon To: Joerg B. Micheel Cc: Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2000 07:26 Subject: Re: Sun release source code for Solaris 8 > The dirty little secret of Linux and *BSD is that their ascendance has > been tightly coupled to Sun's utter inability to build fast, cheap > uniprocessor machines. Any way you slice it, a single-processor top-of- > the-line x86 box is just going to be a *lot* faster and cheaper than > Sun's entry-level multiprocessor. The great gamble they made was to > turn their kernel into a highly-multithreaded thing of beauty -- but > that *has* to cost some (even some small) amount of uniprocessor > performance, and since they can't build cheap multiprocesors that are > as fast as the high end of the commodity uniprocessor x86 boxes, > for a lot of applications they lose. > > Even on a 2- or 4- processor machine, Solaris is demonstrably far > faster than *BSD or Linux for many workloads. But you can buy a > single-processor x86 that's cheaper than Sun's 2- or 4- processor > box now, which is why people run Linux or FreeBSD or NetBSD. There > is still a point at which the only way to get enough performance is > to add more processors, and at that point Solaris still wins, and > will for the forseeable (by me, at least) future. Another thing to mention is also, that it is very easy to build your own kernel, exctly for your needs in Linux or *BSD. (removing all emulations/compatibility modes, ...) so you get a nice small/fast kernel excactly for your type of machine & workload. Don't think it's so easy on a sun. cheers, emanuel Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id EAA23440 for pups-liszt; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 04:02:33 +1100 (EST) From lennox at alcita.com Fri Jan 28 02:55:30 2000 From: lennox at alcita.com (Mirian Crzig Lennox) Date: 27 Jan 2000 11:55:30 -0500 Subject: Sun release source code for Solaris 8 In-Reply-To: Greg Lehey's message of "Thu, 27 Jan 2000 14:57:36 +1030" References: <20000127110321.I53307@freebie.lemis.com> <20000127145736.Q53307@freebie.lemis.com> Message-ID: Greg Lehey writes: > > After looking at the site, it seems as though Sun is trying to > > prevent licence holders from sharing code with other licence > > holders. > > I'm not 100% sure what they mean here. Nobody can stop you > distributing software you wrote as long as it doesn't contain > proprietary Sun code. You could do that with diffs. Can I really? Any diffs are necessarily going to contain some of the original proprietary code. It depends on how aggressive Sun's lawyers are going to be about preventing any co-operative development of Solaris which is not mediated by Sun. From their website, it seems that Sun wants to be firmly in control of that process. This is in contrast to the Ancient UNIX licence, where it's my impression that SCO really doesn't care what you do with UNIX so long as you don't share code with unlicensed people. > > If this is true, it would certainly make the Solaris licence less > > desirable to hobbyists than the ancient UNIX licence, unfortunately. > > I think it is anyway. For hobby purposes, I'd much rather use either > 4.4BSD (for modern usage) or one of the old UNIXes. For practical purposes I agree, although I'm intrigued enough by the extremely modular design of Solaris to think it might be fun to spend some time playing with. -- Mirian Crzig Lennox Systems Anarchist Invest in America -- buy a Congressman! From jcrosenberg at earthlink.net Fri Jan 28 23:45:15 2000 From: jcrosenberg at earthlink.net (John Rosenberg) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 08:45:15 -0500 Subject: Sun release source code for Solaris 8 References: Message-ID: <002001bf6996$34389ec0$b439bfa8@home> I have written several device drivers (e.g., disk, DSP, DAT) for Solaris. It is the slowest OS since Multix. Solaris is buggy, albeit pretty darned stable. Interesting OS, but I'd stick by BSD (from a systems programmer type). ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jonathon McKitrick" To: "Greg Lehey" Cc: "Joerg B. Micheel" ; "Steven M. Schultz" ; ; "FreeBSD Chat" Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2000 8:02 AM Subject: Re: Sun release source code for Solaris 8 > > Message too convoluted to tell who actually wrote this....but i > believe Greg wrote the second group of lines.... > > >> That would make quite an interesting test. How much does > >> ftp.cdrom.com gain by running FreeBSD instead of Solaris ? > > > >Good question. My guess is that Solaris 2 just couldn't handle that > >many connections, but it compete reasonably well with fewer > >connections (say 1000). I'll copy the FreeBSD chat people and see > >what they think. > > Interestingly, i noticed recently that the response time on usa.net > seemed much slower. It appears consistently so, either by ppp > connection or by network/T1 line. A few months ago, netcraft showed > that they were running FreeBSD. Guess what they are running > now? Yup... SOlaris. I dropped them a line saying i noticed the speed > difference. > > -=> jm <=- > > "I've done questionable things, also extraordinary things.... > Revel in your time!" > > Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA28243 for pups-liszt; Sat, 29 Jan 2000 01:24:36 +1100 (EST) From jcm at dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org Sat Jan 29 00:24:19 2000 From: jcm at dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (Jonathon McKitrick) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 14:24:19 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Sun release source code for Solaris 8 In-Reply-To: <002001bf6996$34389ec0$b439bfa8@home> Message-ID: I'm a little concerned where all this leaves FreeBSD. If Solaris goes open source, or something similar, and tries to compete with w2k, plus linux is out there growing, and BeOS will be free soon.... FreeBSD might be a tough sell. Several guys i know say the majority of new unix installs are Linux with few BSD. They say the only BSD users that are growing are ISPs. Does anyone have any stats on how fast we are growing on the desktop, or in general? Also, the white paper on BeOS claims that with all the new advances in hardware, modern OS's have too many layers, which they call 'silt', to allow them to use the hardware effectively. They argue that only starting from scratch allows full use of modern technology, including multimedia advances. How can FreeBSD keep up? We don't have kernel threading and SMP support is still in the works, and most BSD features are 'add-ons'. Should this be a concern for the future? -=> jm <=- "Do not taunt the Happy Fun Ball." Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA28648 for pups-liszt; Sat, 29 Jan 2000 02:11:14 +1100 (EST) From emu at ecubics.com Sat Jan 29 01:14:48 2000 From: emu at ecubics.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 08:14:48 -0700 Subject: Sun release source code for Solaris 8 References: Message-ID: <004e01bf69a2$6c768bb0$5d01a8c0@p2350> ----- Original Message ----- From: Jonathon McKitrick To: John Rosenberg Cc: Greg Lehey ; Joerg B. Micheel ; Steven M. Schultz ; ; FreeBSD Chat Sent: Friday, January 28, 2000 07:24 Subject: Re: Sun release source code for Solaris 8 > > I'm a little concerned where all this leaves FreeBSD. If Solaris goes > open source, or something similar, and tries to compete with w2k, plus > linux is out there growing, and BeOS will be free soon.... FreeBSD might be a > tough sell. Several guys i know say the majority of new unix installs > are Linux with few BSD. They say the only BSD users that are growing > are ISPs. Does anyone have any stats on how fast we are > growing on the desktop, or in general? > > Also, the white paper on BeOS claims that with all the new advances in > hardware, modern OS's have too many layers, which they call 'silt', to > allow them to use the hardware effectively. They argue that only > starting from scratch allows full use of modern technology, including > multimedia advances. How can FreeBSD keep up? We don't have kernel > threading and SMP support is still in the works, and most BSD features > are 'add-ons'. Should this be a concern for the future? > > -=> jm <=- > > "Do not taunt the Happy Fun Ball." > > > Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id DAA29086 for pups-liszt; Sat, 29 Jan 2000 03:05:50 +1100 (EST) From tfb at cley.com Sat Jan 29 02:04:35 2000 From: tfb at cley.com (Tim Bradshaw) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 16:04:35 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Sun release source code for Solaris 8 In-Reply-To: References: <20000127110321.I53307@freebie.lemis.com> <20000127145736.Q53307@freebie.lemis.com> Message-ID: <14481.48659.525262.366785@cley.com> * Mirian Crzig Lennox wrote: > This is in contrast to the Ancient UNIX licence, where it's my > impression that SCO really doesn't care what you do with UNIX so long > as you don't share code with unlicensed people. But that's what you'd expect isn't it? Sun have some reasonable hope of continuing to make money from Solaris, and they obviously would like to retain some control, while SCO is unlikely to be regarding 6th-edition Unix as a big earner... --tim From emu at ecubics.com Sat Jan 29 13:21:32 2000 From: emu at ecubics.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 20:21:32 -0700 Subject: Sun release source code for Solaris 8 References: Message-ID: <02df01bf6a07$f43b8540$5d01a8c0@p2350> ----- Original Message ----- From: Jonathon McKitrick To: John Rosenberg Cc: Greg Lehey ; Joerg B. Micheel ; Steven M. Schultz ; ; FreeBSD Chat Sent: Friday, January 28, 2000 07:24 Subject: Re: Sun release source code for Solaris 8 > tough sell. Several guys i know say the majority of new unix installs > are Linux with few BSD. They say the only BSD users that are growing > are ISPs. I think, that linux is somehow an entry in the unix world ;-) After a while you notice, that *BSD is cleaner & more stable. > Also, the white paper on BeOS claims that with all the new advances in > hardware, modern OS's have too many layers, which they call 'silt', to > allow them to use the hardware effectively. Look what happened to linux & *BSD in the last months/years. They adapting new technologies very fast ... > They argue that only > starting from scratch allows full use of modern technology, including > multimedia advances. How can FreeBSD keep up? We don't have kernel > threading and SMP support is still in the works, and most BSD features > are 'add-ons'. Should this be a concern for the future? Don't be "concerned", build in the stuff you're missing ;-) cheers, emanuel From wkt at cs.adfa.edu.au Sun Jan 30 10:50:39 2000 From: wkt at cs.adfa.edu.au (Warren Toomey) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 11:50:39 +1100 (EST) Subject: Sun release source code for Solaris 8 In-Reply-To: from Mirian Crzig Lennox at "Jan 26, 2000 8: 0:57 pm" Message-ID: <200001300050.LAA33940@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> In article by Mirian Crzig Lennox: > Greg Lehey writes: > > > > The conditions look rather like the SCO ancient UNIX licences, but > > it's *cheaper* ($75, which includes deliverables from Sun). Warren, > > is this ammunition to lobby SCO to drop the prices of Ancient UNIX > > licenses? > > After looking at the site, it seems as though Sun is trying to prevent > licence holders from sharing code with other licence holders. If this > is true, it would certainly make the Solaris licence less desirable to > hobbyists than the ancient UNIX licence, unfortunately. > --Mirian Currently out of town. Still, it might be worth asking SCO for a discount! Does the license cover all of Solaris, or just the kernel?? Cheers, Warren