From rdkeys at unity.ncsu.edu Thu Jun 1 05:18:41 2000 From: rdkeys at unity.ncsu.edu (rdkeys at unity.ncsu.edu) Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 15:18:41 -0400 (EDT) Subject: What to look for in a PDP machine? Message-ID: <200005311918.PAA23647@uni03du.unity.ncsu.edu> Interesting, there may be a PDPsomethingorother machine come available in surplus here. A quick glance at it showed it to be in a 1/2 height rack, with some custom name that meant nothing to me. But, it had two rack cabinets about 6 inches high each, with definite looking DEC cards, 4 wide cards, with an interconnecting cable between the two cases. The thing had a half gig scsi drive and scsi tape (60 or 150mb). Alas, I was able only to make a quick glance at it, before I had to leave. What might such a critter actually be? It had half a dozen RS232 terminal lines out the back, and a wyse terminal sitting on top of the case. It is not the kind of thing the PeeCee mongers are going to dive into, so it might go for a song if I wait a couple of weeks. It was not DEC badged, but definitely had what I would interpret as DEC boards inside. Bob From rdkeys at unity.ncsu.edu Thu Jun 1 05:50:10 2000 From: rdkeys at unity.ncsu.edu (rdkeys at unity.ncsu.edu) Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 15:50:10 -0400 (EDT) Subject: What to look for in a PDP machine? In-Reply-To: <200005311918.PAA23647@uni03du.unity.ncsu.edu> from "rdkeys@unity.ncsu.edu" at May 31, 2000 03:18:41 PM Message-ID: <200005311950.PAA25124@uni02du.unity.ncsu.edu> > Interesting, there may be a PDPsomethingorother machine come available in > surplus here. A quick glance at it showed it to be in a 1/2 height rack, > with some custom name that meant nothing to me. But, it had two rack > cabinets about 6 inches high each, with definite looking DEC cards, > 4 wide cards, with an interconnecting cable between the two cases. > The thing had a half gig scsi drive and scsi tape (60 or 150mb). > Alas, I was able only to make a quick glance at it, before I had to > leave. What might such a critter actually be? It had half a dozen > RS232 terminal lines out the back, and a wyse terminal sitting on top > of the case. It is not the kind of thing the PeeCee mongers are going > to dive into, so it might go for a song if I wait a couple of weeks. > It was not DEC badged, but definitely had what I would interpret as > DEC boards inside. Revisitation of the thing (my curiosity got the better of me and it was only a couple blocks away), yields some more info. A tag on the back says it is a scsi upgrade for a Digital Bright V. The ID plate says it is a Model BF-111/64. Examination of the cards indicated it was full of Perception Technologies cards rather than DEC cards, with what looks like modem transformers on them (10 cards and 80 ports?). Is this a telephone system of some sort? The drive cabinet had a panel on it with: RDY 1 WP RDY 0 WP HALT RESTART DCOK RUN buttons on it. That seems DECish. The rest, I dunno. Anyone have any ideas as to what it might be? Thanks Bob Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA79679 for pups-liszt; Thu, 1 Jun 2000 06:01:29 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From SHOPPA at trailing-edge.com Thu Jun 1 06:00:03 2000 From: SHOPPA at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 16:00:03 -0400 Subject: What to look for in a PDP machine? Message-ID: <000531160003.202005cb@trailing-edge.com> >The drive cabinet had a panel on it with: > > RDY 1 WP > RDY 0 WP > HALT RESTART > DCOK RUN > >buttons on it. That seems DECish. It sounds like a BA23, the DEC standard 8-slot Q-bus chassis. >Anyone have any ideas as to what it might be? Q-bus CPU's can be anything from a PDP-11/03 up to a Microvax, and even some third-party CPU's with odd things like 68000's and Z80's on them. You really gotta look in the CPU box and find the CPU board to determine what it is. The badge on the front of the BA23 may bear no relation to what's installed in it. If it is an -11, it's very likely an 11/73, /83 or 11/93, possibly a 11/23. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa at trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA79693 for pups-liszt; Thu, 1 Jun 2000 06:05:52 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From andy.sporner at networkengines.com Thu Jun 1 06:01:37 2000 From: andy.sporner at networkengines.com (Andy Sporner) Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 16:01:37 -0400 Subject: What to look for in a PDP machine? Message-ID: <8D18C4F9CBA1D311900F00A0C990C97F67C896@neimail.networkengines.com> Could be any number of things... The cable is probably a bus connector and the cabinet in the other rack is an expansion cabinet. What you are looking at could be a PDP 11/05 (I used to have one), although since you didn't mention there being a row of switches across the front, probably not. There are so many different possibilities. If you could describe the front of the boxes that are in the rack it would be very helpful. The PDP 11 possibilities and fit in a 5 1/4" (half box) would be a pdp 11/05 (with a row of white keys (16 of them), a pdp 11/23 (which is mostly white with 3 white keys in a small inset area) and others that might have a rotary switch or perhaps a telephone-like keypad). Otherwise I would wonder if it is even a DEC machine... If it has an orange lighted rocker switch it might be any number of later Q-BUS machines.... (and probably so if this has a SCSI device). Andy > -----Original Message----- > From: rdkeys at unity.ncsu.edu [mailto:rdkeys at unity.ncsu.edu] > Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2000 3:19 PM > To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au > Cc: rdkeys at unity.ncsu.edu > Subject: What to look for in a PDP machine? > > > Interesting, there may be a PDPsomethingorother machine come > available in > surplus here. A quick glance at it showed it to be in a 1/2 > height rack, > with some custom name that meant nothing to me. But, it had two rack > cabinets about 6 inches high each, with definite looking DEC cards, > 4 wide cards, with an interconnecting cable between the two cases. > The thing had a half gig scsi drive and scsi tape (60 or 150mb). > Alas, I was able only to make a quick glance at it, before I had to > leave. What might such a critter actually be? It had half a dozen > RS232 terminal lines out the back, and a wyse terminal sitting on top > of the case. It is not the kind of thing the PeeCee mongers are going > to dive into, so it might go for a song if I wait a couple of weeks. > It was not DEC badged, but definitely had what I would interpret as > DEC boards inside. > > Bob > > > Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA80887 for pups-liszt; Thu, 1 Jun 2000 10:26:51 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From wkt at cs.adfa.edu.au Thu Jun 1 10:25:34 2000 From: wkt at cs.adfa.edu.au (Warren Toomey) Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 10:25:34 +1000 (EST) Subject: Future Direction for PUPS and UHS Message-ID: <200006010025.KAA49471@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> All, A discussion has started up on the PUPS volunteers list about the future direction we should take in terms of the PUPS Archive. For those people new to this list, here's a bit of background. Originally I set up the PDP-11 UNIX Preservation Society, the mailing list and the Archive as that was my interest. Since then, we've attracted people with interests in other Unixes, such as the 4BSDs, and other hardware platforms such as the Vax, the 68k Suns etc. A while back, I changed the charter of the mailing list to encompass any Unix-related questions, epecially to those systems which are now treated as `ancient' by the mainstream, even if they are being maintained (e.g 2.11BSD and the Quasijarus project). I also tried to create an umbrella organisation, the Unix Heritage Society (http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/TUHS/), which would allow a number of groups like PUPS and Quasijarus to form, and so that we could co-ordinate their efforts. I must admit I haven't put much effort into this idea. Now, the PUPS Archive (PUPS in name, but it contains lots more than PDP-11 stuff) is accumulating more and more stuff. Some people want to see a mainly PDP-11 archive, other want to try and archive everything before it goes off to /dev/null. So, I want to survey the mailing list here for ideas about the charter of the Unix Heritage Society, and a way of setting up one or multiple archives, mailing lists, web pages etc. as I originally envisioned. Questions: - should we keep one archive, or have multiple archives? - if one, what structure (divisions on platforms, on vendors etc.) - if you have a keen interest in one platform/system, would you consider becoming the leader of an interest group that could sit under the Unix Heritage Society umbrella? - do you want to set up and maintain a more specific archive, mailing list, web site, that the Unix Heritage Society could point to? - do you want this current mailing list to stay ``all-encompassing'', or would you rather have more specific lists? One final comment before you answer. There's a very diverse bunch of people on this mailing list, some with strong opinions. Please be prepared to accept someone's comments as what they want, don't tell them that they are wrong, but let us know what you'd like to see. Many thanks, Warren [ now stands back for the deluge! ] Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA84679 for pups-liszt; Fri, 2 Jun 2000 02:56:00 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From wkb at chello.nl Fri Jun 2 02:53:57 2000 From: wkb at chello.nl (Wilko Bulte) Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 18:53:57 +0200 Subject: Future Direction for PUPS and UHS In-Reply-To: <200006010025.KAA49471@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>; from wkt@cs.adfa.edu.au on Thu, Jun 01, 2000 at 10:25:34AM +1000 References: <200006010025.KAA49471@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Message-ID: <20000601185357.E99044@freebie.wbnet> On Thu, Jun 01, 2000 at 10:25:34AM +1000, Warren Toomey wrote: > So, I want to survey the mailing list here for ideas about the charter of > the Unix Heritage Society, and a way of setting up one or multiple archives, > mailing lists, web pages etc. as I originally envisioned. > > Questions: > - should we keep one archive, or have multiple archives? Multiple. > - if one, what structure (divisions on platforms, on vendors etc.) I'd distinguish by CPU / machine / vendor. Eg. PDP, VAX, Sun68k, etc. Maybe one should also distinguish by source code / binary-only. People like David are mostly interested in the sources, which I think makes good sense. But if you find yourself with an old box a binary kit sure beats no OS at all. > - do you want this current mailing list to stay ``all-encompassing'', > or would you rather have more specific lists? Depends on the traffic. One could argue a generic 'announce' list and a set of platform dependent lists would be best. But maybe it is too early to nail this down. > One final comment before you answer. There's a very diverse bunch of > people on this mailing list, some with strong opinions. Please be prepared > to accept someone's comments as what they want, don't tell them that they > are wrong, but let us know what you'd like to see. > > Many thanks, > Warren > > [ now stands back for the deluge! ] ;-) -- Wilko Bulte FreeBSD, the power to serve http://www.freebsd.org From wkt at cs.adfa.edu.au Sat Jun 3 11:58:50 2000 From: wkt at cs.adfa.edu.au (Warren Toomey) Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2000 11:58:50 +1000 (EST) Subject: Warren's Position on Future of PUPS/TUHS Message-ID: <200006030158.LAA08504@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Hi all, Well I've had a few comments back from people about the future of things on the PUPS & TUHS front. I've sat down & knocked up a short proposal which I'd be happy with. The overarching goal is to give everybody what they want :-) Anyway, send me comments and suggestions, or plain old disagreements! Thanks, Warren A Discussion Paper on The Future of PUPS, TUHS and the Archive ============================================================== Policy ------ The PDP-11 Unix Preservation Society (PUPS) goes back to being a group specifically focussed on the versions of Unix for the PDP-11 platform. The Unix Heritage Society (TUHS) will be an umbrella group to support efforts to preserve or maintain all versions of Unix that are no longer considered to be mainstream. The type of support is outlined below. Mechanism --------- The pups at minnie mailing list will remain an ``all-encompassing'' mailing list for those people who are active in, or interested in, the aims of the Unix Heritage Society. It will be renamed to be tuhs at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au If enough people request it, a PUPS-specific mailing list will be set up. As part of TUHS aim of support, mailing lists on minnie can be set up for those groups who wish to come under the TUHS umbrella. One or more people from each group will be the list maintainer. If the information is not huge, minnie can offer web space for these groups, too. I'm already doing this for the Quasijarus project. The PUPS Archive will be renamed `The Unix Heritage Archive'. The top-level will contain files & information that is generic. There will be sublevels in the form platform/vendor/version. We might need some other categories for multi-platform systems like the 4BSDs. As an example, nearly all of the current archive will move under a PDP-11/ directory. But directories like Applications/ and Lists/ will stay where they are. If possible and where there are volunteers, each section of the archive will be maintained by its own maintainer. Minnie will provide disk space for all sections, so that there is a `one-stop' place to keep things. However, some groups may want to maintain a separate archive & existence. In this case, TUHS will set up pointers to their efforts. Volunteers & Mirrors -------------------- Some of the existing volunteers and archive mirror maintainers may not wish to maintain a copy of the full TUHS archive. That's their perogative. In fact, it might be useful to `name' each section of the full archive. For example, someone might only want to mirror the VAX section. Perhaps this can be called the VAX Unix Archive. I can modify the mechanism of ordering archive copies so that: + specific volunteers can nominate which archive sections they carry + requesters can order specific sections, or all, and find out how big each section is + requests will only be sent to those volunteers who can do them Copyright & License Issues -------------------------- At present, most things in the archive are protected by licenses and/or copyright. This probably isn't going to change soon. The current mechanisms to ensure access by license holders will be preserved. Given the aims of TUHS, I am prepared to keep in the archive anything that is Unix-related for antiquated or non-mainstream systems. We may not be able to release some of this due to license or copyright reasons. In that case, it will be kept hidden away in the archive until it can be released. It won't be mirrored or be available for copying in any way until that time. A Personal Note --------------- I'd like to maintain the PDP-11 archive, and initially do the TUHS stuff (including web pages, mailing lists, top-level of the archive). I'll set up platform-specific (or other-specific) levels as long as there is someone who will volunteer to maintain that area, and any web pages and mailing lists associated with them. It would also be a good idea to have an understudy or two in the wings, just in case I get hit by a bus or something. Conclusion ---------- I'm sure there are other issues (especially implementation ones) that I've missed above, but hopefully you get the general idea of my proposal for future direction of PUPS and TUHS. Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA97124 for pups-liszt; Sat, 3 Jun 2000 18:00:42 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From robin at ruffnready.co.uk Sat Jun 3 17:57:30 2000 From: robin at ruffnready.co.uk (Robin Birch) Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2000 08:57:30 +0100 Subject: Warren's Position on Future of PUPS/TUHS In-Reply-To: <200006030158.LAA08504@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> References: <200006030158.LAA08504@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Message-ID: In message <200006030158.LAA08504 at henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>, Warren Toomey writes >Hi all, > Well I've had a few comments back from people about the future of >things on the PUPS & TUHS front. I've sat down & knocked up a short >proposal which I'd be happy with. The overarching goal is to give everybody >what they want :-) Anyway, send me comments and suggestions, or plain old >disagreements! > >Thanks, > Warren > Sounds basically ok to me Robin > > A Discussion Paper on The Future of PUPS, TUHS and the Archive > ============================================================== > >Policy >------ > >The PDP-11 Unix Preservation Society (PUPS) goes back to being a group >specifically focussed on the versions of Unix for the PDP-11 platform. > >The Unix Heritage Society (TUHS) will be an umbrella group to support >efforts to preserve or maintain all versions of Unix that are no longer >considered to be mainstream. The type of support is outlined below. > >Mechanism >--------- > >The pups at minnie mailing list will remain an ``all-encompassing'' mailing >list for those people who are active in, or interested in, the aims of the >Unix Heritage Society. It will be renamed to be tuhs at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au >If enough people request it, a PUPS-specific mailing list will be set up. > >As part of TUHS aim of support, mailing lists on minnie can be set up >for those groups who wish to come under the TUHS umbrella. One or more >people from each group will be the list maintainer. > >If the information is not huge, minnie can offer web space for these >groups, too. I'm already doing this for the Quasijarus project. > >The PUPS Archive will be renamed `The Unix Heritage Archive'. The top-level >will contain files & information that is generic. There will be sublevels >in the form platform/vendor/version. We might need some other categories >for multi-platform systems like the 4BSDs. As an example, nearly all of the >current archive will move under a PDP-11/ directory. But directories like >Applications/ and Lists/ will stay where they are. > >If possible and where there are volunteers, each section of the archive >will be maintained by its own maintainer. Minnie will provide disk space >for all sections, so that there is a `one-stop' place to keep things. >However, some groups may want to maintain a separate archive & existence. >In this case, TUHS will set up pointers to their efforts. > > >Volunteers & Mirrors >-------------------- > >Some of the existing volunteers and archive mirror maintainers may not >wish to maintain a copy of the full TUHS archive. That's their perogative. >In fact, it might be useful to `name' each section of the full archive. >For example, someone might only want to mirror the VAX section. Perhaps >this can be called the VAX Unix Archive. > >I can modify the mechanism of ordering archive copies so that: > > + specific volunteers can nominate which archive sections they carry > + requesters can order specific sections, or all, and find out how > big each section is > + requests will only be sent to those volunteers who can do them > > >Copyright & License Issues >-------------------------- > >At present, most things in the archive are protected by licenses and/or >copyright. This probably isn't going to change soon. The current mechanisms >to ensure access by license holders will be preserved. > >Given the aims of TUHS, I am prepared to keep in the archive anything that >is Unix-related for antiquated or non-mainstream systems. We may not >be able to release some of this due to license or copyright reasons. In >that case, it will be kept hidden away in the archive until it can be >released. It won't be mirrored or be available for copying in any way >until that time. > >A Personal Note >--------------- > >I'd like to maintain the PDP-11 archive, and initially do the TUHS stuff >(including web pages, mailing lists, top-level of the archive). I'll set >up platform-specific (or other-specific) levels as long as there is someone >who will volunteer to maintain that area, and any web pages and mailing >lists associated with them. > >It would also be a good idea to have an understudy or two in the wings, >just in case I get hit by a bus or something. > >Conclusion >---------- > >I'm sure there are other issues (especially implementation ones) that >I've missed above, but hopefully you get the general idea of my proposal >for future direction of PUPS and TUHS. ____________________________________________________________________ Robin Birch robin at ruffnready.co.uk M1ASU/2E0ARJ/M5ABD Old computers and radios always welcome From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Tue Jun 6 08:46:46 2000 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de) Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 00:46:46 +0200 (CEST) Subject: 4.3BSD-Reno install on MicroVAX II Message-ID: <200006052246.AAA20067@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Hi. Today I tried to install 4.3BSD-Reno on a MicroVAX II. The machine has 13MB RAM, DHV11, TK50, DELQA, one RD53 with RQDX3 and a Sigma DLV11-J clone. I created a boot tape using a netbooted NetBSD 1.4.2 on this machine. I dd-ed "stand", "miniroot" and "rootdump" onto a tape with the blocksizes listed in the file "Rick_Copeland_Note". I also used "maketape" from the 2.11BSD distribution. >>> b mua0 2..1..0.. ?06 HLT INST PC = 00074C1E >>> Every time the same. :-( Do I make a mistake? Is my hardware not supported? Is there a other way to get 4.3BSD-Reno instaled? (Puting a disklabel, ffs and data with NetBSD onto the disk, but how to boot?) ??? -- tschüß, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA11618 for pups-liszt; Tue, 6 Jun 2000 10:17:02 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG Tue Jun 6 10:14:51 2000 From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov) Date: Mon, 5 Jun 00 19:14:51 CDT Subject: 4.3BSD-Reno install on MicroVAX II Message-ID: <0006060014.AA12823@ivan.Harhan.ORG> jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de wrote: > Today I tried to install 4.3BSD-Reno on a MicroVAX II. The machine has > 13MB RAM, DHV11, TK50, DELQA, one RD53 with RQDX3 and a Sigma DLV11-J > clone. 4.3BSD-Reno is spoiled and bloated, and won't fit on an RD53. The true 4.3BSD, however, 4.3BSD-Quasijarus, will. Go to http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/ to learn about the project and subscribe to its mailing list, then ask any further questions there. -- Michael Sokolov Harhan Engineering Laboratory Public Service Agent International Free Computing Task Force International Engineering and Science Task Force 615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY STE #4 DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA Phone: +1-214-824-7693 (Harhan Eng Lab office) E-mail: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (ARPA TCP/SMTP) (UUCP coming soon) Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA11891 for pups-liszt; Tue, 6 Jun 2000 11:09:01 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From emu at ecubics.com Tue Jun 6 11:12:19 2000 From: emu at ecubics.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2000 19:12:19 -0600 Subject: profesional 350 & 380 References: <200006052246.AAA20067@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <005b01bfcf54$49da50b0$5d01a8c0@p2350> Hi all, Any chance to get a unix running on them ? cheers & thanks, emanuel Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA12552 for pups-liszt; Tue, 6 Jun 2000 13:52:45 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From djenner at halcyon.com Tue Jun 6 13:50:14 2000 From: djenner at halcyon.com (David C. Jenner) Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2000 20:50:14 -0700 Subject: profesional 350 & 380 References: <200006052246.AAA20067@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <005b01bfcf54$49da50b0$5d01a8c0@p2350> Message-ID: <393C74F6.A19267C0@halcyon.com> There are at least two *NIXes that run on the Pro. There are apparently patches for 2.9BSD available that allow that version to run on the Pro. I don't have any experience with that. There are two versions of Venix that run on the Pro. 1) Venix/Pro came directly from Venturecom. It exists in Version 1 and Version 2. 2) Pro/Venix came from DEC, but was a slight rework of Venix originally from Venturecom. I.e., DEC worked over Venix/Pro and issued a version itself called Pro/Venix. Venix/Pro versions 1 and 2 are available from the archives at ftp.update.uu.se. This means, ostensibly, that Venix/Pro is in the "public domain". Pro/Venix could also be in the public domain, subject to the Ancient Unix License, since it originates from Version 7 and System III from AT&T. Bob Supnick, who was at DEC, once stated he saw no reason why it couldn't be a part of the PUPS archive under the AU License. I have an incomplete set of Pro/Venix. A couple of the floppies are bad. I would like to find a copy of Pro/Venix that is installable, as it is more flexible than Venix/Pro. If anyone out there has any Pro/Venix floppies, I'd be grateful to hear about it. Thanks, Dave emanuel stiebler wrote: > > Hi all, > > Any chance to get a unix running on them ? > > cheers & thanks, > emanuel Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA12967 for pups-liszt; Tue, 6 Jun 2000 16:04:09 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From bqt at Update.UU.SE Tue Jun 6 16:01:20 2000 From: bqt at Update.UU.SE (Johnny Billquist) Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 08:01:20 +0200 (MET DST) Subject: profesional 350 & 380 In-Reply-To: <005b01bfcf54$49da50b0$5d01a8c0@p2350> Message-ID: On Mon, 5 Jun 2000, emanuel stiebler wrote: > Hi all, > > Any chance to get a unix running on them ? There is Venix. I even think it's free now... Johnny Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at update.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA13672 for pups-liszt; Tue, 6 Jun 2000 18:40:07 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Tue Jun 6 18:36:49 2000 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de) Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 10:36:49 +0200 (CEST) Subject: 4.3BSD-Reno install on MicroVAX II In-Reply-To: <0006060014.AA12823@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Message-ID: <200006060836.KAA24484@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On 6 Jun, Michael Sokolov wrote: > 4.3BSD-Reno is spoiled and bloated, This is what I was waiting for. ;-) > and won't fit on an RD53. I have a Dilog DQ686 MCSP ESDI controler with three 320MB disks hany... And a QD33 with two 9" 940MB SMD disks. But these disks are nor very hany. ;-) > The true 4.3BSD however, 4.3BSD-Quasijarus, will. Hmm. [jkunz at MissSophie 4.3BSD-Quasijarus0a]$ file stand.Z stand.Z: data [jkunz at MissSophie 4.3BSD-Quasijarus0a]$ uncompress -c stand.Z > /bigtmp/tmp/stand uncompress: stand.Z: Inappropriate file type or format The same for 4.3BSD-Quasijarus0. This is my local PUPS / TUHS archive mirror, rsynced last week. MissSophie is a i386 box with NetBSD 1.4.2. > Go to > > http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/ Been there, sounds good, but see above... An other reason was: I wanted to install some "original" CSRG stuff. So I took 4.3BSD-Reno. The version in the archive is complete and supports my CPU/disk/tape. -- tschüß, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA14832 for pups-liszt; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 00:13:36 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From allisonp at world.std.com Wed Jun 7 00:11:23 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp at world.std.com) Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 10:11:23 -0400 (EDT) Subject: profesional 350 & 380 In-Reply-To: <393C74F6.A19267C0@halcyon.com> Message-ID: > I have an incomplete set of Pro/Venix. A couple of > the floppies are bad. I would like to find a copy > of Pro/Venix that is installable, as it is more > flexible than Venix/Pro. If anyone out there has > any Pro/Venix floppies, I'd be grateful to hear about > it. > I thought this one was up on uu.se site. I got my copy from there years ago. Allison Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA15060 for pups-liszt; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 00:50:13 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG Wed Jun 7 00:47:53 2000 From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov) Date: Tue, 6 Jun 00 09:47:53 CDT Subject: 4.3BSD-Reno install on MicroVAX II Message-ID: <0006061447.AA13729@ivan.Harhan.ORG> jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de wrote: > [jkunz at MissSophie 4.3BSD-Quasijarus0a]$ file stand.Z=20 > stand.Z: data > [jkunz at MissSophie 4.3BSD-Quasijarus0a]$ uncompress -c stand.Z > /bigtmp/t= > mp/stand > uncompress: stand.Z: Inappropriate file type or format See http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/compress.html > An other reason was: I wanted > to install some "original" CSRG stuff. So I took 4.3BSD-Reno. 4.3BSD-Quasijarus is more original CSRG than 4.3BSD-Reno. Reno doesn't follow the True UNIX line of V1 thru V7 thru 4.3BSD, Quasijarus does. Reno breaks all traditional CSRG ideology and is not CSRG in any way other than having been built in Evans Hall. 4.3BSD-Quasijarus hasn't been built in Evans Hall, but is CSRG in every other way. -- Michael Sokolov Harhan Engineering Laboratory Public Service Agent International Free Computing Task Force International Engineering and Science Task Force 615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY STE #4 DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA Phone: +1-214-824-7693 (Harhan Eng Lab office) E-mail: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (ARPA TCP/SMTP) (UUCP coming soon) Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA15719 for pups-liszt; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 02:19:28 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Wed Jun 7 02:16:53 2000 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de) Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 18:16:53 +0200 (CEST) Subject: 4.3BSD-Reno install on MicroVAX II In-Reply-To: <0006061447.AA13729@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Message-ID: <200006061616.SAA25525@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On 6 Jun, Michael Sokolov wrote: > See > http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/compress.html Ahhh! Why is there no note in the distribution directory? Ehhh? And where to get the code? Why is there no hint to it on the web page? Distributions/4bsd/components/compress.tar ??? The Web-Page says: "The strong compression code is available as a separate package in the BSD distribution archive (it is itself uncompressed)." But the Distributions/4bsd/4.3BSD-Quasijarus0a directory does not contain it. > 4.3BSD-Quasijarus is more original CSRG than 4.3BSD-Reno. Reno doesn't follow > the True UNIX line of V1 thru V7 thru 4.3BSD, Quasijarus does. [...] Is there some documentation available about this? -- tschüß, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id DAA16017 for pups-liszt; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 03:22:09 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG Wed Jun 7 03:19:48 2000 From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov) Date: Tue, 6 Jun 00 12:19:48 CDT Subject: 4.3BSD-Reno install on MicroVAX II Message-ID: <0006061719.AA14055@ivan.Harhan.ORG> jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de wrote: > Ahhh! Why is there no note in the distribution directory? OK, I'll add one. > Ehhh? And where to get the code? Why is there no hint to it on the web > page? Distributions/4bsd/components/compress.tar ??? Yes. > The Web-Page says: "The strong compression code is available as a > separate package in the BSD distribution archive (it is itself > uncompressed)." Hmm, I thought this was enough info for folks to figure out that components/compress.tar is the right tarball... > But the Distributions/4bsd/4.3BSD-Quasijarus0a directory > does not contain it. It's in the components directory, as opposed to the tape distribution directory for any particular release, because it's a grabbed-out BSD component that can be used with any release. The tape distribution directories have exactly what goes on the tape in the format it goes there, nothing more, nothing less. > > 4.3BSD-Quasijarus is more original CSRG than 4.3BSD-Reno. Reno doesn't follow > > the True UNIX line of V1 thru V7 thru 4.3BSD, Quasijarus does. > [...] > Is there some documentation available about this? I have something along these lines on the front page of the Quasijarus project. But sure, I should elaborate. I will when I respond to Warren's PUPS/TUHS reorg thing, which I'm still procrastinating on. :-) -- Michael Sokolov Harhan Engineering Laboratory Public Service Agent International Free Computing Task Force International Engineering and Science Task Force 615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY STE #4 DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA Phone: +1-214-824-7693 (Harhan Eng Lab office) E-mail: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (ARPA TCP/SMTP) (UUCP coming soon) Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id EAA16405 for pups-liszt; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 04:39:39 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From pzh at bia-bg.com Wed Jun 7 03:36:05 2000 From: pzh at bia-bg.com (Peter Zhivkov) Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 20:36:05 +0300 (EET DST) Subject: 4.3BSD-Reno install on MicroVAX II In-Reply-To: <0006061447.AA13729@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Message-ID: On Tue, 6 Jun 2000, Michael Sokolov wrote: > 4.3BSD-Quasijarus is more original CSRG than 4.3BSD-Reno. Reno doesn't follow > the True UNIX line of V1 thru V7 thru 4.3BSD, Quasijarus does. Reno breaks all > traditional CSRG ideology and is not CSRG in any way other than having been > built in Evans Hall. 4.3BSD-Quasijarus hasn't been built in Evans Hall, but is > CSRG in every other way. > people, please administer proper dosage...and do not let patients out of the boundaries of the asylum... > -- > Michael Sokolov Harhan Engineering Laboratory > Public Service Agent International Free Computing Task Force > International Engineering and Science Task Force > 615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY STE #4 > DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA > > Phone: +1-214-824-7693 (Harhan Eng Lab office) > E-mail: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (ARPA TCP/SMTP) (UUCP coming soon) > > P.S. please take me off the quasijarus list Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id FAA16600 for pups-liszt; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 05:10:46 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From jasomill at shaffstall.com Wed Jun 7 05:06:40 2000 From: jasomill at shaffstall.com (Jason T. Miller) Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 14:06:40 -0500 (EST) Subject: RX50 on RQDX3 on 2.11BSD In-Reply-To: <200005261407.AAA44464@minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au> Message-ID: Does anyone have experience using the RX50 floppy drive under 2.11BSD? I patched my FreeBSD kernel to handle RX50-format (80 cyl / 1 hd / 10 sec) diskettes, and noticed what seemed to be some sort of logical sector interleave (I also have hardware that does physical diskette reads / dumps, which assured me that I was getting the physical data off the disk in the order prescribed by the sector ID address marks); so, back to the old '11 for another round of test-disk making. My test data was simple enough: 512 bytes of 16-bit unsigned integer one, followed by 512 bytes of UINT16 2, usw. to UINT16 800; the easier to figure out the interleave, my precious... But I didna even get that far: observe (testrx50.img is 409,600 bytes): $ dd if=testrx50.img of=/dev/ra12a 800+0 records in 800+0 records out $ dd if=/dev/ra12a of=test 800+0 records in 800+0 records out $ diff testrx50.img test Binary files testrx50.img and test differ WHOA! This shouldn't happen, should it? In my late-night screwings-around, I recall the following Additional Facts: - Disks formatted with my PC floppy drive (using my kernel hacks - available on request [although until I get them working, no guarantees in re: their applicability to this or any other use; although I will attest that they won't make your kernel crash, at least not in 4.0-STABLE]) usually work okay, but sometimes give hard errors. - Disks formatted with the aforementioned Custom Hardware (a Shaffstall 6000 media conversion system, for the curious) for a) DEC Rainbow, b) RT-11, and c) DECmate II, seem to work flawlessly, at the physical level, but exhibit the below-mentioned quirks, logically. I'll note at this point that the media I'm using is 3M DS/DD 96tpi (_not_ high density), and disks formatted with the 6000 (RT-11) worked perfectly under RSX-11. Also: - The '11/2.11BSD never seem to write the first two sectors, although no error is returned to this effect; in fact, the data in sector three is from offset 1024 in the input data (0x0003 in the above example). Is this due to disk label support or something? The raw (character) device reports itself as read-only, even for root. - The remaining data sometimes (but not always; the specific circumstances involved I have not yet figured out conclusively -- physical interleave, preexisting data (!), or, something else?) carries an interleave, though I admit I haven't figured it out yet (meaning I haven't sat down and done it, not that I don't know how). Finally, I noticed there is no floppy-specific code in the MSCP driver, so all the gory details of floppy control (along with the gory details of the above) must be dealt with by the RQDX3. Anybody got documentation for this little slice 'o heaven? And, er, _really_ finally, is it really true that I can put any HD AT drive (well, any one that sports DS jumpers) on the RQDX3 and it'll function as an RX33? Does this void my field service contract, as my field service engineer is growing bored with staying up all night trying to understand funky DEC floppy hardware, as Parts currently has Guinness on a 180-day lead and it is a neccessary part of such an operation? Wonder what DEC would think of allowing (providing?) old PDP hardware docs for the archive? JasoMill From wkb at chello.nl Wed Jun 7 05:37:24 2000 From: wkb at chello.nl (Wilko Bulte) Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 21:37:24 +0200 Subject: RX50 on RQDX3 on 2.11BSD In-Reply-To: ; from jasomill@shaffstall.com on Tue, Jun 06, 2000 at 02:06:40PM -0500 References: <200005261407.AAA44464@minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au> Message-ID: <20000606213724.A1789@freebie.wbnet> On Tue, Jun 06, 2000 at 02:06:40PM -0500, Jason T. Miller wrote: > Wonder what DEC would think of allowing (providing?) old PDP hardware docs > for the archive? I'm afraid you'd have to ask Mentec. -- Wilko Bulte FreeBSD, the power to serve http://www.freebsd.org http://www.nlfug.nl Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id FAA16881 for pups-liszt; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 05:40:28 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From SHOPPA at trailing-edge.com Wed Jun 7 05:38:29 2000 From: SHOPPA at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 15:38:29 -0400 Subject: RX50 on RQDX3 on 2.11BSD Message-ID: <000606153829.20200e60@trailing-edge.com> >Does anyone have experience using the RX50 floppy drive under 2.11BSD? Yeah, sure. > I >patched my FreeBSD kernel to handle RX50-format (80 cyl / 1 hd / 10 sec) >diskettes, and noticed what seemed to be some sort of logical sector >interleave (I also have hardware that does physical diskette reads / in the order prescribed by the sector ID address marks); so, back to the >old '11 for another round of test-disk making. My test data was simple >enough: 512 bytes of 16-bit unsigned integer one, followed by 512 bytes of >UINT16 2, usw. to UINT16 800; the easier to figure out the interleave, my >precious... But I didna even get that far: observe (testrx50.img is >409,600 bytes): > > $ dd if=testrx50.img of=/dev/ra12a > 800+0 records in > 800+0 records out > $ dd if=/dev/ra12a of=test > 800+0 records in > 800+0 records out > $ diff testrx50.img test > Binary files testrx50.img and test differ > >WHOA! This shouldn't happen, should it? No, it shouldn't, but I'm confused as to where you're doing this at. Is this on FreeBSD? >Also: > - The '11/2.11BSD never seem to write the first two sectors, although >no error is returned to this effect; in fact, the data in sector three is >from offset 1024 in the input data (0x0003 in the above example). Is this >due to disk label support or something? The raw (character) device reports >itself as read-only, even for root. This must have something to do with the 2.11BSD disk label. The raw character device should be writable, can you try rm'ing the appropriate entries and remaking them with /dev/MAKEDEV? Also note that you may have to issue a disklabel command to make it possible for you to clobber the sectors where the disk label would otherwise live. > - The remaining data sometimes (but not always; the specific >circumstances involved I have not yet figured out conclusively -- physical >interleave, preexisting data (!), or, something else?) carries an >interleave, though I admit I haven't figured it out yet (meaning I haven't >sat down and done it, not that I don't know how). Yes, there is a physical<->logical block interleave on the RX50. See, for example, John Wilson's PUTR source code ( at ftp://ftp.dbit.com/pub/ibmpc/putr/ - assuming that ftp.dbit.com is back up by now!) for details and example code. >Finally, I noticed there is no floppy-specific code in the MSCP driver, so >all the gory details of floppy control (along with the gory details of the >above) must be dealt with by the RQDX3. That's true, the RQDX3 takes care of all that. If you look at any DEC Professional RX50 driver source code, you'll see the interleave code in there. For example, from RT-11's DZ.MAC sources: ; ; In standard RT-PC mode, a 2:1 interleave is used on a single track and ; a 2 sector skew is used across tracks. ("RT-PC" means "RT-11 on a DEC Professional", roughly!) and later, in a breathtaking example of tight driver interleave code (really, study it very closely, this is good stuff!): ; Normal I/O, convert block number to track and sector number and interleave ; ASL R2 ;Make word count unsigned byte count MOV (PC)+,R4 ;Loop count for 8 bit division .BYTE -7.,-10. ;Count becomes 0, -10 in high byte for later 50$: CMP #1280.,R5 ;Does 10 go into dividend (10.*200)? BHI 60$ ;Branch if not, C-bit clear ADD #-1280.,R5 ;Subtract 10 from dividend, and set C-bit ;(10.*200) 60$: ROL R5 ;Shift dividend and quotient INCB R4 ;Decrement loop count BLE 50$ ;Branch until divide done MOVB R5,R1 ;Copy track number 0:79, zero extend ADD R4,R5 ;Make sector < 0 MOV R1,R4 ;Copy track number ASL R1 ;Multiply by 2 (skew) 70$: SUB #10.,R1 ;Reduce track number * 2 MOD 10 BGT 70$ ; to find offset for this track, -10:0 MOV R1,TRKOFF ;Save it BR 100$ ;Go save parameters and start >And, er, _really_ finally, is it really true that I can put any HD AT >drive (well, any one that sports DS jumpers) on the RQDX3 and it'll >function as an RX33? Does this void my field service contract, as my field >service engineer is growing bored with staying up all night trying to >understand funky DEC floppy hardware, as Parts currently has Guinness on >a 180-day lead and it is a neccessary part of such an operation? The DEC RX33 floppy drive *is* a TEAC FD55GFR, also commonly found on PC-clones. Not just *any* HD AT floppy drive will work. Not only does it need to support the drive select jumpers, it also needs a bit more jumper configurability. The exact jumper settings vary depending on which exact FD55 model and revision you're using. As of a few months ago many of the jumper setting legends were decoded on the spec sheets you could get from TEAC's faxback service. The standard reference on this subject for the past decade has been Terry Kennedy's THIRD-PARTY-DISKS.TXT, available via anonymous FTP from ftp://ftp.spc.edu/third-party-disks.txt Since this subject comes up several times a year, would it be possible to link to the above document from somewhere in the PUPS archive, Warren? -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa at trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA16978 for pups-liszt; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 06:01:47 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From SHOPPA at trailing-edge.com Wed Jun 7 05:59:51 2000 From: SHOPPA at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 15:59:51 -0400 Subject: RX50 on RQDX3 on 2.11BSD Message-ID: <000606155951.20200e60@trailing-edge.com> >> Wonder what DEC would think of allowing (providing?) old PDP hardware docs >> for the archive? >I'm afraid you'd have to ask Mentec. No, Mentec doesn't (generally) own the rights to those. Mentec owns the rights to several former DEC OS's, most notably RT-11, RSX-11M, RSX-11M+, and RSTS/E, and many of the corresponding layered products. But they don't even own all the former DEC PDP-11 software; for instance, they don't have XXDP, DOS-11, PAL-11, etc... Of probable interest to many of the readers of this mailing list, Mentec is gearing up to offer a hobbyist license for the RT, RSX-11M, RSX-11M+, and RSTS/E. Note, in particular, that there is a "PDP-11 Hobbyist" link on Mentec's page at http://www.mentec.com/mentecinc/default.asp The link is currently disabled, but I expect it'll be active in the next week or so. Tim. Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA17027 for pups-liszt; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 06:14:35 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From rivie at teraglobal.com Wed Jun 7 06:12:14 2000 From: rivie at teraglobal.com (Roger Ivie) Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 14:12:14 -0600 Subject: RX50 on RQDX3 on 2.11BSD In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >Does anyone have experience using the RX50 floppy drive under 2.11BSD? I >patched my FreeBSD kernel to handle RX50-format (80 cyl / 1 hd / 10 sec) >diskettes, and noticed what seemed to be some sort of logical sector >interleave (I also have hardware that does physical diskette reads / >dumps, which assured me that I was getting the physical data off the disk >in the order prescribed by the sector ID address marks); Yes, there is a software interleave on RX50 diskettes. It also varies from system to system; I'm pretty certain PDP-11s and VAXes use the same software interleave (otherwise you couldn't exchange diskettes between a Pro350 and a MicroVAX II), but the DECmate II and III use a different software interleave. I have a memo here somewhere; it's getting a bit faded, perhaps I should do an underground HTML translation of it... Ah yes, here it is: DEC format supported by RQDX controller (this is 1984, so the only RQDX controller is RQDX1 at the time) used by Pro300, Micro-PDPs, MicroVAX I: - 10 sectors per track - 2 for 1 interleaving with 3 to 1 intercylinder skew - Physical track # = (LBN/10) + 1 with wraparound to track 0 [IOW, logical track 0 is physical track 1 and physical track 0 is logical track 79] - Physical sector # = X ( m ) where m = LBN mod 50, n = m/10, c = m mod 10: |c=0|c=1|c=2|c=3|c=4|c=5|c=6|c=7|c=8|c=9| ---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+ n=0| 01| 03| 05| 07| 09| 02| 04| 06| 08| 10| ---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+ n=1| 03| 05| 07| 09| 01| 04| 06| 08| 10| 02| ---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+ n=2| 05| 07| 09| 01| 03| 06| 08| 10| 02| 04| ---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+ n=3| 07| 09| 01| 03| 05| 08| 10| 02| 04| 06| ---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+ n=4| 09| 01| 03| 05| 07| 10| 02| 04| 06| 08| ---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+ DECmates and Rainbows don't use an intercylinder skew. Rainbows have the whacky logical track wrapping while DECmates don't. Yes, the RQDX3 is supposed to do this for you so you don't have to deal with it, unless you're foolishly trying to read DECmate or Rainbow disks on an RQDX3, at which point you need to carefully figure out how the lack of intercylinder skew on the DECmates interacts with the cylinder skew on the RQDX3. I know the RQDX3 implements the soft interleave because I did the firmware for Digital's SCSI floppy controller. I maintained that the device driver should deal with the interleave because it varies from format to format and the SCSI controller can't tell whether a particular RX50 is a DECmate RX50 or a VAX RX50. VMS didn't want to deal with the soft interleave because they don't have to on the RQDX3. I lost the fight and had to go back into the SCSI controller and rev the firmware to deal with the soft interleave. > $ dd if=testrx50.img of=/dev/ra12a > 800+0 records in > 800+0 records out > $ dd if=/dev/ra12a of=test > 800+0 records in > 800+0 records out > $ diff testrx50.img test > Binary files testrx50.img and test differ > >WHOA! This shouldn't happen, should it? No, it shouldn't, at least AFAIK. > In my late-night screwings-around, >I recall the following Additional Facts: > - Disks formatted with my PC floppy drive (using my kernel hacks - >available on request [although until I get them working, no guarantees in >re: their applicability to this or any other use; although I will attest >that they won't make your kernel crash, at least not in 4.0-STABLE]) >usually work okay, but sometimes give hard errors. This shouldn't be a problem. There are some potential difficulties involving the gap lengths; IIRC it's possible to format floppies that work on a PC but don't work with the HDC 9224 used on the RQDX3 because the 9224 requires a little bit more time to clean itself up in one of the gaps. Unfortunately, I don't recall the details; this was all a long time ago. I think it involves the gap between the header and data fields of a sector, but don't hold me to that. >I'll note at this point that the media I'm using is 3M DS/DD 96tpi (_not_ >high density), and disks formatted with the 6000 (RT-11) worked perfectly >under RSX-11. That's good. You should not be using high-density disks. >Finally, I noticed there is no floppy-specific code in the MSCP driver, so >all the gory details of floppy control (along with the gory details of the >above) must be dealt with by the RQDX3. Anybody got documentation for this >little slice 'o heaven? What sort of info are you looking for? Floppy drivers are a PITA to write and you should be happy the RQDX3 is hiding it from you. >And, er, _really_ finally, is it really true that I can put any HD AT >drive (well, any one that sports DS jumpers) on the RQDX3 and it'll >function as an RX33? The DEC drive changes speed based on the head write current signal of the interface. AT drives don't change speed; the data separator on an AT controller runs at 300KHz for low-density instead of 250KHz to deal with that little slice o' heaven. If you stick any HD AT drive on an RQDX3, you may be able to read high-density disks, but you probably will not be able to read low-density disks (i.e., RX50s). Oh yeah. Since the DEC drives change speed, that means there's an extra little slice o' heaven in the floppy support code to wait for the drive to change speed when the density changes. Are you _sure_ you want documentation for that little slice o' heaven? -- Roger Ivie rivie at teraglobal.com Not speaking for TeraGlobal Communications Corporation Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA17070 for pups-liszt; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 06:22:55 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From rdkeys at unity.ncsu.edu Wed Jun 7 06:20:52 2000 From: rdkeys at unity.ncsu.edu (rdkeys at unity.ncsu.edu) Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 16:20:52 -0400 (EDT) Subject: New Compress -- needs bigger info flag readme whatever In-Reply-To: <0006061719.AA14055@ivan.Harhan.ORG> from "Michael Sokolov" at Jun 06, 2000 12:19:48 PM Message-ID: <200006062020.QAA04660@uni00du.unity.ncsu.edu> > Hmm, I thought this was enough info for folks to figure out that > components/compress.tar is the right tarball... I had the same problems, so pleeze, put a biggie readme at all appropriate tree levels that has a 2 liner about the must use the ``new'' compress, and where exactly to find it. It was not quite intuitively obvious.....(:+}}...to my RT toy....until I unrolled it there. When will scsi development proceed.... I have this scsi VAX sitting........ Actually several VS3100, uV3100, things..... sitting......... They yearn for the simplicity of a plain 4.3BSD.....that runs fine on my old dinosaur RT toy.....(:+}}...... Anyone else running RT toyz? Thanks Bob Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA17081 for pups-liszt; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 06:23:41 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From rivie at teraglobal.com Wed Jun 7 06:21:22 2000 From: rivie at teraglobal.com (Roger Ivie) Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 14:21:22 -0600 Subject: RX50 on RQDX3 on 2.11BSD In-Reply-To: <000606153829.20200e60@trailing-edge.com> References: <000606153829.20200e60@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: Tim Shoppa said: >; >; In standard RT-PC mode, a 2:1 interleave is used on a single track and >; a 2 sector skew is used across tracks. Well, that disagrees with this memo right here which specifies a 3:1 interleave. It's hard to argue with code, though, and since I don't have my 8051 code for the SCSI floppy controller handy, I'll have to believe Tim on this one. -- Roger Ivie rivie at teraglobal.com Not speaking for TeraGlobal Communications Corporation Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA17116 for pups-liszt; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 06:32:29 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From rdkeys at unity.ncsu.edu Wed Jun 7 06:30:26 2000 From: rdkeys at unity.ncsu.edu (rdkeys at unity.ncsu.edu) Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 16:30:26 -0400 (EDT) Subject: RT confusedness.... In-Reply-To: <000606153829.20200e60@trailing-edge.com> from "Tim Shoppa" at Jun 06, 2000 03:38:29 PM Message-ID: <200006062030.QAA05591@uni00du.unity.ncsu.edu> > ; In standard RT-PC mode, a 2:1 interleave is used on a single track and > ; a 2 sector skew is used across tracks. > > ("RT-PC" means "RT-11 on a DEC Professional", roughly!) Gee, let's not forget the old IBM RT-PC dinosaur.....(:+}}... It was an entirely different beastie by the same name, that I am sure a few of us have played with over the years. It's a prime candidate for the UHS style fodder, if there were any interest in the thing besides with me. Anyone else aboard play with that dinosaur critter? ...... > Terry Kennedy's THIRD-PARTY-DISKS.TXT, available via anonymous FTP > from > > ftp://ftp.spc.edu/third-party-disks.txt > > Since this subject comes up several times a year, would it be possible > to link to the above document from somewhere in the PUPS archive, Warren? Yes, I would like to see Warren mirror such things, as space and utility dictate. Sometimes some redundancy in these forgotten lores is good. I am sure there are other such docs and texts of wisdom that collectively we should centralize in the archives, space, copyrights, permissions, etc., to be worked out in some way. At least, link to the urls, as long as the urls don't break. Bob Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id HAA17435 for pups-liszt; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 07:59:37 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Wed Jun 7 07:56:56 2000 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de) Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 23:56:56 +0200 (CEST) Subject: 4.3BSD-Reno install on MicroVAX II In-Reply-To: <0006061719.AA14055@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Message-ID: <200006062156.XAA26340@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On 6 Jun, Michael Sokolov wrote: >> Ahhh! Why is there no note in the distribution directory? > OK, I'll add one. A litle note like: Look at http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/compress.html to see how to decompress the files. in the FORMAT file can save much time if you are a Quasijarus beginner. Or a Link "HOWTO install Quasijarus" with a note about the compress issue, creating tapes, ... on the Quasijarus main page will do the job also. > Hmm, I thought this was enough info for folks to figure out that > components/compress.tar is the right tarball... Again. "Look at Distributions/4bsd/components/compress.tar" can save time... > It's in the components directory, as opposed to the tape distribution directory > for any particular release, because it's a grabbed-out BSD component that can > be used with any release. The tape distribution directories have exactly what > goes on the tape in the format it goes there, nothing more, nothing less. Ahh. I did not know this. ARGL! Now my TK50 died! Sh..., fu..., [other censored stuff] What have we learned now? Kids, do not dismount the optical positioner at the back of a TK50 drive for cleaning! GRMBL. OK. Tomorrow is a new day, new luck. I will mount the TK50Z in the MVII and I will give Quasijarus a try. If Quasijarus also fails, the BA23 box will stay inactive until I get a working, 2.11BSD capable PDP11 CPU. -- a guts Nächtle, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id HAA17429 for pups-liszt; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 07:59:15 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From wkt at cs.adfa.edu.au Wed Jun 7 07:57:16 2000 From: wkt at cs.adfa.edu.au (Warren Toomey) Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 07:57:16 +1000 (EST) Subject: Hardware info in Unix Archive In-Reply-To: <200006062030.QAA05591@uni00du.unity.ncsu.edu> from "rdkeys@unity.ncsu.edu" at "Jun 6, 2000 4:30:26 pm" Message-ID: <200006062157.HAA32202@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> In article by rdkeys at unity.ncsu.edu: > > Terry Kennedy's THIRD-PARTY-DISKS.TXT, available via anonymous FTP > > from > > > > ftp://ftp.spc.edu/third-party-disks.txt > > > > Since this subject comes up several times a year, would it be possible > > to link to the above document from somewhere in the PUPS archive, Warren? I'd prefer to not put things into the archive unless they were Unix-related. Notwithstanding that comment, if there's enough disk space, why not. However, it would have to be in an area which was marked as generic information. Ciao, Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA17544 for pups-liszt; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 08:25:16 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From wkt at cs.adfa.edu.au Wed Jun 7 08:23:20 2000 From: wkt at cs.adfa.edu.au (Warren Toomey) Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 08:23:20 +1000 (EST) Subject: Hardware info in Unix Archive In-Reply-To: <020401bfd004$d7ee0490$5d01a8c0@p2350> from emanuel stiebler at "Jun 6, 2000 4:16:14 pm" Message-ID: <200006062223.IAA32518@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> In article by emanuel stiebler: > > I'd prefer to not put things into the archive unless they were > Unix-related. > Why not an pointer to the ftp archive ? > If something changes there, we're updated. So we have to keep track of the > changes :-( Pointers would go on the web pages (that's easy). Real files in the Archive :-) As part of the division of things into system/platform-specific and Unix-generic areas, I'm updating the Unix Heritage Society web pages. A preview is at http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/tuhs/ We need more affiliated groups! Bob, you want to lead an IBM group? David, how about an encumbered BSD group? Minnie will provide web space, archive area, mail list as required. The web page above is the place to put pointers to hardware information and other useful stuff, unless that has already been done by an affiliated group. So start sending me URLs :-) The existing pups at minnie mail list will become the tuhs at minnie list. A new pups at minnie list will be created for PDP-11 specific stuff. Next week sometime. In a month say, I'll reorganise the structure of the PUPS Archive, and rename it as the Unix Archive. If you have mirrors, don't worry I'll e-mail out a shell script with lots of mkdir and mv commands in it :-) Cheers, Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA17685 for pups-liszt; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 08:51:22 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From wkt at cs.adfa.edu.au Wed Jun 7 08:49:14 2000 From: wkt at cs.adfa.edu.au (Warren Toomey) Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 08:49:14 +1000 (EST) Subject: VAX group in TUHS? In-Reply-To: <393D9CE9.533EFA0E@openecs.org> from chris at "Jun 7, 2000 2:52:57 am" Message-ID: <200006062249.IAA32738@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> In article by chris: > I really like to help starting a VAX Unix archive. My VAX11/750 is bored by > NetBSD and want's to try out some other "real" UNIX. > So this might be a great chance. > > Regards - Chris At present, Michael Sokolov looks after the 4BSD VAX section of the archive under the aegis of the Quasijarus project. Michael, do you want to continue to do this? Or should we separate the historical 4BSDs for someone to curate while you manage the ongoing Quasijarus work? Cheers, Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA17708 for pups-liszt; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 08:59:36 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From sms at moe.2bsd.com Wed Jun 7 08:45:02 2000 From: sms at moe.2bsd.com (Steven M. Schultz) Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 15:45:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: RX50 on RQDX3 on 2.11BSD Message-ID: <200006062245.PAA01871@moe.2bsd.com> Hi -- Wow, quite a bit of interest in 2.11 these days - I suppose I should get back into it (too many other projects, etc and so little time ;)) > From: "Jason T. Miller" > Does anyone have experience using the RX50 floppy drive under 2.11BSD? I > patched my FreeBSD kernel to handle RX50-format (80 cyl / 1 hd / 10 sec) Not for eons - the RX50 I had was so flakey (well, actually it finally got to the point it was declared broke) it was replaced with a 1.2mb 5.25" Teac "PC" drive). > $ dd if=testrx50.img of=/dev/ra12a > 800+0 records in > 800+0 records out > $ dd if=/dev/ra12a of=test > 800+0 records in > 800+0 records out > $ diff testrx50.img test > Binary files testrx50.img and test differ > > WHOA! This shouldn't happen, should it? In my late-night screwings-around, No, in fact I'd have expected an error on the first 'dd'. Using 'cmp -l' will show where the differences are. If they are only in the first couple sectors but the rest compare ok then I think I know what the problem might be. I'd also, not that it would make any difference (I hope), use the raw device for speed purposes (RX50 is slow enough as it is ;)): dd if=testrx50.img of=/dev/rra12a > - The '11/2.11BSD never seem to write the first two sectors, although > no error is returned to this effect; in fact, the data in sector three is > from offset 1024 in the input data (0x0003 in the above example). Is this > due to disk label support or something? The raw (character) device reports > itself as read-only, even for root. Indeed it is related to disklabel support. In the face of a missing or corrupt disklabel the kernel is supposed (and I think it is in this case) synthesize a label that spans the entire disk with the 'a' partition. I do not know why the first two sectors are not being written if the synthetic label is being used. It's probably a bug having to deal with not setting the "enable write for label area" when the fake label is being used. Sigh. I have a floppy drive on my 11/73 - I'll try to find time and play around before going on vacation in a couple weeks. The first sector should have been written (that's the boot block), the label sector is the 2nd sector and that's 'write protected' unless either an ioctl() is done or the 'disklabel' program is used to un-writeprotect it. Try doing a disklabel -W /dev/rra12a to enable writing the label sector. If that works then the problem lies in not setting that bit when a corrupt/missing label is seen. Normally this isn't necessary since filesystems are created on disks and they're not treated as raw output bitcontainers. Floppies are special in that 'raw' device usage is more common. > Finally, I noticed there is no floppy-specific code in the MSCP driver, so > all the gory details of floppy control (along with the gory details of the > above) must be dealt with by the RQDX3. Anybody got documentation for this Quite so. To the driver the RX50 is just another MSCP disk. Oh, for debugging purposes you can enable more or all of the MSCP messages with the 'sysctl' command: sysctl -w machdep.mscp.printf=X where X is a bitmask (at present only the first 4 bits are in use). Setting X to 15 will enable every printf the driver has. * Bit 0 = print/log all non successful response packets * Bit 1 = print/log datagram arrival * Bit 2 = print status of all response packets _except_ for datagrams * Bit 3 = enable debug/log statements not covered by one of the above See the pdpuba/ra.c sources for more details, and what printf/log statements are covered by which bit. Steven Schultz sms at moe.2bsd.com Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA17936 for pups-liszt; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 09:41:44 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG Wed Jun 7 09:39:23 2000 From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov) Date: Tue, 6 Jun 00 18:39:23 CDT Subject: VAX group in TUHS? Message-ID: <0006062339.AA14868@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Warren Toomey wrote: > At present, Michael Sokolov looks after the 4BSD VAX section of the > archive under the aegis of the Quasijarus project. Yes. > Michael, do you want to continue to do this? Yes. > Or should we separate the historical 4BSDs for > someone to curate while you manage the ongoing Quasijarus work? No, I do not and will not separate these. Warren, can we talk about all this sometime later, leaving the affected areas intact for now? I'm *really* swamped right now. -- Michael Sokolov Harhan Engineering Laboratory Public Service Agent International Free Computing Task Force International Engineering and Science Task Force 615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY STE #4 DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA Phone: +1-214-824-7693 (Harhan Eng Lab office) E-mail: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (ARPA TCP/SMTP) (UUCP coming soon) Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA19425 for pups-liszt; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 16:11:25 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From bqt at Update.UU.SE Wed Jun 7 16:09:07 2000 From: bqt at Update.UU.SE (Johnny Billquist) Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 08:09:07 +0200 (MET DST) Subject: RX50 on RQDX3 on 2.11BSD In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 6 Jun 2000, Jason T. Miller wrote: [...floppy stuff on 2.11 deleted...] > $ diff testrx50.img test > Binary files testrx50.img and test differ > > WHOA! This shouldn't happen, should it? Well... No... But... You later note that 2.11 don't write the first two sectors, even though it don't give you any errors. So, I'm not surprised by the result. the first 1K are probably very different. Try to compare everything after that 1K and see if that is the same. Johnny Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at update.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA21593 for pups-liszt; Thu, 8 Jun 2000 01:39:19 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Thu Jun 8 01:36:43 2000 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de) Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 17:36:43 +0200 (CEST) Subject: New Compress -- needs bigger info flag readme whatever In-Reply-To: <200006062020.QAA04660@uni00du.unity.ncsu.edu> Message-ID: <200006071536.RAA01882@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On 6 Jun, rdkeys at unity.ncsu.edu wrote: > When will scsi development proceed.... I have this scsi VAX sitting........ > Actually several VS3100, uV3100, things..... sitting......... NetBSD-current runs well on VAXstations 3100 and 4000m{60,90}. OK, it is no pure BSD in Michaels sense and it is not that lean. But it is a good OS, free, modern, ... -- tschüß, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA22104 for pups-liszt; Thu, 8 Jun 2000 02:55:02 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From jasomill at shaffstall.com Thu Jun 8 02:50:10 2000 From: jasomill at shaffstall.com (Jason T. Miller) Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 11:50:10 -0500 (EST) Subject: RX50 on RQDX3 on 2.11BSD In-Reply-To: Message-ID: After looking at the data, I'm not suprised, either -- I've proven, if nothing else, that the 'diff' command is not broken :) This command seek-whence was for illusutrative purposes; by far the strangest thing to me is the Interleave Problem. First R/W UNIX block device I've ever seen that's not bijective (to slightly abuse the term). -jtm On Wed, 7 Jun 2000, Johnny Billquist wrote: > > WHOA! This shouldn't happen, should it? > > Well... No... But... > > You later note that 2.11 don't write the first two sectors, even though it > don't give you any errors. So, I'm not surprised by the result. Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id DAA22172 for pups-liszt; Thu, 8 Jun 2000 03:20:49 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From jasomill at shaffstall.com Thu Jun 8 03:15:53 2000 From: jasomill at shaffstall.com (Jason T. Miller) Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 12:15:53 -0500 (EST) Subject: RX50 on RQDX3 on 2.11BSD In-Reply-To: <200006062245.PAA01871@moe.2bsd.com> Message-ID: > Wow, quite a bit of interest in 2.11 these days - I suppose I should > get back into it (too many other projects, etc and so little time ;)) It's the first PDP operating system I've enjoyed working with, and one of the coolest UNIX implementations I've had the pleasure of working with. Every programmer who writes 150MB bloatware should study it. > Not for eons - the RX50 I had was so flakey (well, actually it finally > got to the point it was declared broke) it was replaced with a 1.2mb > 5.25" Teac "PC" drive). I unearthed two Teac 55-G series floppy drives, and they're both broken (won't format w/verify) -- the RX50 isn't the only flakey floppy. I've got a few Toshibas and Matsushitas I'm gonna fool around with, though. Though I find that about 90% of what I learn about everything computer related involves one thing or another that doesn't work; so in a way I can thank DEC for screwball H/W. About 10 YA, I used a DECmate II with an RX50 on a daily basis, and had 0 problems; of course, I had preformatted DEC disks and no interchange (at the time I had two computers -- an Atari 130XE and DECmate II) > Using 'cmp -l' will show where the differences are. If they are only > in the first couple sectors but the rest compare ok then I think I > know what the problem might be. Some is, some ain't. Aside from the also-mentioned "interleave problem," whereby the RX50 seems to interleave output data (isn't the hardware supposed to take care of this, if it is indeed hardware interleave, though I'm 95% sure I formatted 1:1...yes, unless the RQDX3 is unlike _every_ floppy controller I've seen in the past ten years) > I do not know why the first two sectors are not being written if the > synthetic label is being used. It's probably a bug having to deal > with not setting the "enable write for label area" when the fake label > is being used. Sigh. I have a floppy drive on my 11/73 - I'll try > to find time and play around before going on vacation in a couple weeks. I, also, although I'm not going on vacation in the near future, and I don't have an 11/73 -- but, I suppose if I can find time to play with my PDP @ all (which I suppose I have -- it's now, courtesy of Network Address Translation and SLIP, not only connected to my Apartment Network, but also to the Internet. Now to find a Web browser that fits in 64K I space or segments well. Is CERN line-mode still being maintaned?), I'll work on this. I hope to be able to use the RX50 for sneakernet purposes, despite my network connection, as 19.2K is pretty damned slow, and while I'm excited at the prospect of diviplexing SLIP over all 40 ports on all five of my muxes, I'm somewhat less excited at the prospect of designing and coding it; besides, I only have three serial ports on my PC, and one's for the modem). Though Priority One is getting my LA75 working -- once again It Worked In RSX (much better than I did, I might add :). > Try doing a > > disklabel -W /dev/rra12a > > Oh, for debugging purposes you can enable more or all of the MSCP > messages with the 'sysctl' command: > > sysctl -w machdep.mscp.printf=X > I will. Thanks. I didn't even know 2.11 had 'sysctl'. Cool. -jtm Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id EAA22518 for pups-liszt; Thu, 8 Jun 2000 04:52:59 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From griffioena at psi.com Thu Jun 8 04:50:39 2000 From: griffioena at psi.com (Arno Griffioen) Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 20:50:39 +0200 (CEST) Subject: RT confusedness.... In-Reply-To: <200006062030.QAA05591@uni00du.unity.ncsu.edu> from "rdkeys@unity.ncsu.edu" at "Jun 6, 2000 04:30:26 pm" Message-ID: <200006071850.UAA26525@superluminal.usn.nl> > Gee, let's not forget the old IBM RT-PC dinosaur.....(:+}}... > It was an entirely different beastie by the same name, that I am sure > a few of us have played with over the years. It's a prime candidate for > the UHS style fodder, if there were any interest in the thing besides > with me. Anyone else aboard play with that dinosaur critter? Yup.. But only with 4.3BSD on it. The assembly mnemonics stil crack me up. Seems like IBM somehow misunderstood 'RISC' for Reduced Mnemonics. The comments inserted in assembly code by the C compiler gave some indication of the brokenness of the CPU.. Lots of NOP's added in several places with remarks like "Add NOPs, otherwise register contents will be wrong". But hey... Before that I was used to working with 40 students on a uVAX 3600 (which I now own and run :-), so to me these RT's were pretty darn quick! Still would like to get my grubby paws on one though. Somehow this collection of old UNIX machines is becoming an obsession :-) Bye, Arno. -- PSINetworks Europe Fax: +31-23-5699841 | One disk to rule them all, Siriusdreef 34 Tel: +31-23-5699840 | One disk to bind them, 2132WT Hoofddorp+--------------------------------+ One disk to hold the files The Netherlands | * Musical Interlude * | And in the darkness grind 'em ----------------+--------------------------------+------------------------------ We say Retribution, We say Vengeance is bliss, We say Revolution, With a Cast-Iron fist! (Megadeth, 'The Disintegrators') -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From jasomill at shaffstall.com Thu Jun 8 06:07:58 2000 From: jasomill at shaffstall.com (Jason T. Miller) Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 15:07:58 -0500 (EST) Subject: RQDX3 software interleave Message-ID: > Yes, the RQDX3 is supposed to do this for you so you don't have to deal > with it, ... I guess I should have sat down and thought about it, I never even considered the hardware doing software interleave (quite a dumb thing to do, IMHO, unless you want to sell preformatted diskettes for use in systems with widely varying performance characteristics; who would want to do that :). Thanks, Herr Ivie, for that insight. Also thanks to SMS for the disklabel enlightenment. I should have a workable solution soon, though doing the interleave code in 4.4BSD kernelland doesn't seem like much fun and would reduce the general applicability of the driver (I'd like to see what the FreeBSD committers would think when I suggest _that_!); I think I'll just write an "interleave filter" in userland and leave it at that. > What sort of info are you looking for? Floppy drivers are a PITA to write > and you should be happy the RQDX3 is hiding it from you. Don't get me wrong, I _am_ happy. I like smart hardware as long as it doesn't try to second-guess me; I'm a big fan of SCSI. Just a natural and (usually, but not always) healty curiousity. And I know how much fun floppy drivers are to write; one of the products developed by my employer (though before I was thus employed) was a disk conversion system. And we even used one of the more "intelligent" floppy controllers, an experimental TI 9909 that handled "pretty much everything" for you (as long as "pretty much everything" involved writing single-density IBM 8" diskettes -- reminds me of the line in Raising Arizona, when N. Cage asks the cashier if he has balloons in funny shapes and he replies: "if you think a circle is a funny shape"). So I have the source code to a floppy driver that handles almost any disk type imaginable (as long as the data rate isn't too high: 2.88MB disks zum beispiel), all written in assembler and PLM for an 8085; talk about tight code. Speaking of PITA device control, wasn't it the DEC RX02 that wrote address information in single density and data in DD? Once again, thanks for everyone for all the help. I'll have this thing working soon. -jtm Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA23073 for pups-liszt; Thu, 8 Jun 2000 06:56:27 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From rivie at teraglobal.com Thu Jun 8 06:54:01 2000 From: rivie at teraglobal.com (Roger Ivie) Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 14:54:01 -0600 Subject: RQDX3 software interleave In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > Speaking of PITA >device control, wasn't it the DEC RX02 that wrote address information in >single density and data in DD? Yes, it was. But it was usually done by the hardware (I suppose that would be microcode in the case of the RX02), so unless you wanted to do something foolish like read RX02 diskettes in your DD CP/M machine or format floppies you don't have to worry about it. -- Roger Ivie rivie at teraglobal.com Not speaking for TeraGlobal Communications Corporation Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id HAA23245 for pups-liszt; Thu, 8 Jun 2000 07:38:22 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From rdkeys at unity.ncsu.edu Thu Jun 8 07:36:19 2000 From: rdkeys at unity.ncsu.edu (rdkeys at unity.ncsu.edu) Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 17:36:19 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Newer BSD thingies....nice but then again.... In-Reply-To: <200006071536.RAA01882@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> from "jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de" at Jun 07, 2000 05:36:43 PM Message-ID: <200006072136.RAA29103@uni04du.unity.ncsu.edu> > > When will scsi development proceed.... I have this scsi VAX sitting........ > > Actually several VS3100, uV3100, things..... sitting......... > NetBSD-current runs well on VAXstations 3100 and 4000m{60,90}. OK, it > is no pure BSD in Michaels sense and it is not that lean. But it is a > good OS, free, modern, ... True, and I run about a dozen NetBSD critters (minor VAXen, MIPSen, Sun68ken, etc.) in my basement. But, I still do like the simple minded leanness of a 4.3BSD. I once sat down and loaded up 4.3Tahoe, 4.3Reno, 4.4, 4.4Lite2 (mostly) on my RT's, and you could really tell the difference as the bloat transcended out of the 4.3 arena. On a 12.5 mhz box, you can feel the difference (what about a MVII at its liesurely pace?). So, I do think it would be a reasonable effort to keep something like a tiny 4.3 system afloat for the older and the newer toyz. Whether or not it is practical, or we have the time to do that... who knows.... mebbie, at least for some historical play. I do like the new scsi drivers in NetBSD VAX, though... it makes the old toyz fly like the wind.....(:+}}... Bob Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id HAA23316 for pups-liszt; Thu, 8 Jun 2000 07:56:55 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From rdkeys at unity.ncsu.edu Thu Jun 8 07:54:44 2000 From: rdkeys at unity.ncsu.edu (rdkeys at unity.ncsu.edu) Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 17:54:44 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Hardware info in Unix Archive In-Reply-To: <200006062223.IAA32518@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> from "Warren Toomey" at Jun 07, 2000 08:23:20 AM Message-ID: <200006072154.RAA00453@uni04du.unity.ncsu.edu> > We need more affiliated groups! Bob, you want to lead an IBM group? > David, how about an encumbered BSD group? Minnie will provide web space, > archive area, mail list as required. What sort of interest do we have in doing something like this? IF the interest was there, I could probably make some time to chair an IBM RT related group. So far it seems about half a dozen folks were interested in the RT things. Let's see where it goes..... Bob Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA23361 for pups-liszt; Thu, 8 Jun 2000 08:05:58 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From apgarcia at hackaholic.org Thu Jun 8 07:58:58 2000 From: apgarcia at hackaholic.org (A. P. Garcia) Date: 07 Jun 2000 21:58:58 +0000 Subject: unix precursors Message-ID: I know that www.multicians.org is a nice web site devoted to Multics, but does anyone know where I can learn more about other precursors to unix? Thompson mentions that unix borrows heavily from CTSS. I think that Corbato wrote a book on this system, but that book seems nearly as rare as chicken teeth. I think he also wrote an earlier journal article on the system, which I imagine shouldn't be hard to locate. Finally, Thompson also mentions that fork() basically existed in its current form in the Berkeley Timesharing System. That is the one and only thing I have ever heard about this system. Anyone know where I can learn more? Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA23424 for pups-liszt; Thu, 8 Jun 2000 08:16:53 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From root at gits.dyndns.org Thu Jun 8 08:14:46 2000 From: root at gits.dyndns.org (Cyrille Lefevre) Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 00:14:46 +0200 (CEST) Subject: 4.3BSD-Reno install on MicroVAX II In-Reply-To: <200006060836.KAA24484@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> "from jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de at Jun 6, 2000 10:36:49 am" Message-ID: <200006072214.AAA04762@gits.dyndns.org> jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de wrote: > On 6 Jun, Michael Sokolov wrote: > > > 4.3BSD-Reno is spoiled and bloated, > This is what I was waiting for. ;-) > > > and won't fit on an RD53. > I have a Dilog DQ686 MCSP ESDI controler with three 320MB disks hany... > And a QD33 with two 9" 940MB SMD disks. But these disks are nor very > hany. ;-) > > > The true 4.3BSD however, 4.3BSD-Quasijarus, will. > Hmm. > > [jkunz at MissSophie 4.3BSD-Quasijarus0a]$ file stand.Z > stand.Z: data > [jkunz at MissSophie 4.3BSD-Quasijarus0a]$ uncompress -c stand.Z > /bigtmp/tmp/stand > uncompress: stand.Z: Inappropriate file type or format > > The same for 4.3BSD-Quasijarus0. This is my local PUPS / TUHS archive > mirror, rsynced last week. MissSophie is a i386 box with NetBSD 1.4.2. you have to use the "Quasijarus" compress which is, in the pups archive, Distributions/4bsd/components/compress.tar. > > Go to > > > > http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/ > > Been there, sounds good, but see above... An other reason was: I wanted > to install some "original" CSRG stuff. So I took 4.3BSD-Reno. The > version in the archive is complete and supports my CPU/disk/tape. Cyrille. -- home: mailto:clefevre at citeweb.net work: mailto:Cyrille.Lefevre at edf.fr Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA23490 for pups-liszt; Thu, 8 Jun 2000 08:23:41 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Thu Jun 8 08:21:04 2000 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de) Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 00:21:04 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Newer BSD thingies....nice but then again.... In-Reply-To: <200006072136.RAA29103@uni04du.unity.ncsu.edu> Message-ID: <200006072221.AAA02836@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On 7 Jun, rdkeys at unity.ncsu.edu wrote: > True, and I run about a dozen NetBSD critters Ahh. I thought that you did not know about the new (puh, it is more than 1/2 year old) developements in DMA SCSI on VAXstations... > But, I still do like the simple minded leanness of a 4.3BSD. ...as I do like the leanness of NetBSD on i386... I dont like this bloated, i386 centric wants-to-be-*ix from Finland... Hmmm. And my TK50 is broken so I can not get 4.3BSD on my MVII without slaughtering my TK50Z... :-( > I do like the new scsi drivers in NetBSD VAX, though... it makes the old > toyz fly like the wind.....(:+}}... Oh, yes. My VS4000m60 needs only 36 hours to go through a "make build". This is pure luxury. I think we are moving more and more away from the sbject of this list. EOT -- tschüß, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA23608 for pups-liszt; Thu, 8 Jun 2000 08:49:25 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG Thu Jun 8 08:46:55 2000 From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov) Date: Wed, 7 Jun 00 17:46:55 CDT Subject: Newer BSD thingies....nice but then again.... Message-ID: <0006072246.AA16781@ivan.Harhan.ORG> jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de wrote: > Oh, yes. My VS4000m60 needs only 36 hours to go through a "make build". > This is pure luxury.=20 And 4.3BSD-Quasijarus completes its make build on my CSRG dev mill, which is a KA655 (3.8 VUPs, whereas your KA46 is 12 VUPs), in a little under 4 hours. The GENERIC vmunix kernel is another 30 minutes. Long live Original UNIX in 4 capitals! Let's reopen the Soviet factories, build new 11/780s with the hammer and sickle on every chip, put the real UNIX on them, and send pee sea-raised revisionists to gulag! -- Michael Sokolov Harhan Engineering Laboratory Public Service Agent International Free Computing Task Force International Engineering and Science Task Force 615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY STE #4 DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA Phone: +1-214-824-7693 (Harhan Eng Lab office) E-mail: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (ARPA TCP/SMTP) (UUCP coming soon) Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA23628 for pups-liszt; Thu, 8 Jun 2000 08:52:47 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From enf at pobox.com Thu Jun 8 08:50:45 2000 From: enf at pobox.com (Eric Fischer) Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 17:50:45 -0500 (CDT) Subject: unix precursors In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200006072250.RAA82201@shell-1.enteract.com> > Thompson mentions that unix borrows heavily from CTSS. I think that > Corbato wrote a book on this system, but that book seems nearly as > rare as chicken teeth. I think he also wrote an earlier journal > article on the system, which I imagine shouldn't be hard to locate. The journal article you're thinking of is probably "An Experimental Time Sharing System" by Corbato, Merwin-Daggett, and Daley, which describes an early version of the system (where command arguments were still separated by vertical bars instead of spaces). AFIPS Conference Proceedings vol. 21, 1962. The book is _The Compatible Time-Sharing System: A User's Guide_, which was published in two editions in, I think, 1963 and 1965, by MIT Press. Both editions are in enough libraries you should be able to get them by interlibrary loan. The first edition is more booklike, the second is more like a collection of man pages. The Charles Babbage Institute has copies of some of the on-line updates to the manual (on paper) from after the second edition was published. You will see many similarities to Unix. The arguments to tar, for instance, come straight from the CTSS "ARCHIV" command. > Finally, Thompson also mentions that fork() basically existed in its > current form in the Berkeley Timesharing System. That is the one and > only thing I have ever heard about this system. Anyone know where I > can learn more? You can find out some things about it from Butler Lampson's "A User Machine in a Time-Sharing System," at http://www.research.microsoft.com/lampson/02-UserMachine/Abstract.html Dennis Ritchie cites a real manual for the system in the references for http://cm.bell-labs.com/cm/cs/who/dmr/hist.html but I haven't been able to locate a copy, even in the library at the University of California, Berkeley. I've read somewhere that the system is supposed to be similar to the PDP-1 time sharing system developed at MIT, but the only documentation I've located on that is Mario Bonghi's master's thesis, which seems to have been written before the hardware was even upgraded to be able to run the software it describes. eric Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA23737 for pups-liszt; Thu, 8 Jun 2000 09:37:35 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From pdub at accesscom.com Thu Jun 8 09:36:42 2000 From: pdub at accesscom.com (Paul West) Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 16:36:42 -0700 Subject: unix precursors References: Message-ID: <393EDC8A.237C8423@accesscom.com> "A. P. Garcia" wrote: > does anyone know where I can learn more about other precursors to > unix? On CTSS: F. J. Corbato et al. "An Experimental Time-Sharing System" Proceedings of the AFIPS, SJCC 1962, vol 21, pp 335-344. P. A. Crisman The Compatible Time-Sharing System: A Programmer's Guide, 2nd ed. MIT Press, 1965. On the Berkeley Timesharing System: W.W. Lichtenberger and M. W. Pirtle "A Facility for Experimentation in Man-Machine Interaction" Proceedings of the AFIPS, FJCC 1965, vol 27, pp 185-196. B. W. Lampson, W.W. Lichtenberger and M. W. Pirtle "A User Machine in a Time-Sharing System" Proceedings of the IEEE, vol 54 no 12 (Dec. 1966), pp 1766-1774. This last paper is reprinted in Chapter 24 of: C. Gordon Bell and Allen Newell Computer Structures: Readings and Examples Mc-Graw Hill, 1971 and this *entire* book is online at "http://www.research.microsoft.com/~gbell/Computer_Structures__Readings_and_Examples/contents.html" (the URL needs to be all on one line to cut and paste into your browser). Happy reading :) Paul Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA24483 for pups-liszt; Thu, 8 Jun 2000 12:28:39 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From pdub at accesscom.com Thu Jun 8 12:27:45 2000 From: pdub at accesscom.com (Paul West) Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 19:27:45 -0700 Subject: unix precursors References: <200006072250.RAA82201@shell-1.enteract.com> Message-ID: <393F04A1.2A71E151@accesscom.com> Eric Fischer wrote: > > I've read somewhere that > the system is supposed to be similar to the PDP-1 time sharing > system developed at MIT, but the only documentation I've located > on that is Mario Bonghi's master's thesis, which seems to have been > written before the hardware was even upgraded to be able to run > the software it describes. The book "Computer Engineering" by Bell, Mudge and McNamara gives another reference for the MIT PDP-1 timesharing system: J.B. Dennis, "A Multiuser Computation Facility for Education and Research" Comm. ACM, vol. 7 no. 9 (Sept. 1964), pp 521-529. BTW, there apparently were two different timesharing systems developed for the PDP-1, the second one coming from Bolt, Beranek, and Newman (BBN). "Computer Engineering" gives this reference for the BBN system: J. McCarthy, S. Boilen, E. Fredkin, and J.C.R. Lieklider "A Timesharing Debugging System for a Small Computer" AFIPS Conference Proceedings, SJCC 1963, vol 23, pp 51-57. Yes, that is John McCarthy of LISP fame. Paul Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA25136 for pups-liszt; Thu, 8 Jun 2000 14:59:41 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From sms at moe.2bsd.com Thu Jun 8 14:45:32 2000 From: sms at moe.2bsd.com (Steven M. Schultz) Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 21:45:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: RX50 on RQDX3 on 2.11BSD Message-ID: <200006080445.VAA25310@moe.2bsd.com> Hi - > From: "Jason T. Miller" > > Wow, quite a bit of interest in 2.11 these days - I suppose I should > It's the first PDP operating system I've enjoyed working with, and one of > the coolest UNIX implementations I've had the pleasure of working with. Ah, thanks! I can't claim _all_ the credit but 2.10.1 was more or less directly my "fault" and 2.11 was all set to be called 2.11SMS until one of the CSRG folks intervened and gave me the BSD imprimateur. > I unearthed two Teac 55-G series floppy drives, and they're both broken > (won't format w/verify) -- the RX50 isn't the only flakey floppy. I've got Sigh. Anyhow, to the problem you observed dd'ing data to an RX50 and the ensuing compare error. I'm using an RX33 (well, mod'd Teac 5.25" drive) on a RQDX3. I freshly formatted a floppy. That's one nice thing about the RX33, the RQDX3 can format floppies using ZRQF?? - RX50's meant getting preformat'd media or a Rainbow to do the formatting from what I remember. Then before doing anything I enabled a bit of extended logging from the MSCP driver with sysctl -w machdep.mscp.printf=9 The first access to the drive ("disklabel ra9") elicited a "ra9a=entire disk: no disk label" message. This is expected and correct - the kernel saw there was a corrupt/missing label and came up with a label that spanned the 2400 sectors of the drive using the 'a' partition. Next a 1.2mb file (sector 0 having zeroes, sector 1 having ones, etc) was dd'd: dd if=/tmp/data of=/dev/rra9a and almost immediately dd reported: write: Read-only file system 2+0 records in 2+0 records out That probably should have been 2+0 and 1+0 since dd read two sectors but only successfully wrote one. A bug in 'dd' perhaps that it doesn't decrement the output count on a write error. At any rate you should error out if the label area is not write enabled. The 'disklabel' program automatically enables and disables the writeprotect when writing the label in case you were wondering about that ;) After doing the "disklabel -W ra9" the "dd" works fine and the floppy compares identical to the input file. The MSCP driver hasn't changed in quite a while so if you retrieved 2.11 fairly recently the problem's not a bug in ra.c that I can see (or if it is, it's particular to the RX50 somehow). Why 'ra9' (I hear you ask)? Well, the system is currently booted from a different controller (Emulex UC08). The boot controller is *always* 'ra0 thru ra7' no matter what the CSR is. The secondary controller (the RQDX3 in this case) is always 'ra8 thru ra15'. The RD54 is 'ra8' (first drive on the 2nd controller) and the RX33 is ra9 (second drive on the second controller). > > Oh, for debugging purposes you can enable more or all of the MSCP > > messages with the 'sysctl' command: > > > > sysctl -w machdep.mscp.printf=X > > I will. Thanks. I didn't even know 2.11 had 'sysctl'. Cool. One more thing I stuffed into the system. You'll also find "sigaction" and friends along with RTS/CTS flowcontrol (for devices which support it), and numerous other goodies imported from 4.4BSD (the latest addition was 'pselect(2)' just a couple months ago). Steven Schultz sms at moe.2bsd.com Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA25267 for pups-liszt; Thu, 8 Jun 2000 15:43:47 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From lars at nocrew.org Thu Jun 8 15:41:44 2000 From: lars at nocrew.org (lars brinkhoff) Date: 08 Jun 2000 07:41:44 +0200 Subject: unix precursors In-Reply-To: "A. P. Garcia"'s message of "07 Jun 2000 21:58:58 +0000" References: Message-ID: <85snuoenl3.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> "A. P. Garcia" writes: > I know that www.multicians.org is a nice web site devoted to Multics, > but does anyone know where I can learn more about other precursors to > unix? How about ITS, did it influence Unix? Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA25534 for pups-liszt; Thu, 8 Jun 2000 17:15:14 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From bqt at Update.UU.SE Thu Jun 8 17:13:02 2000 From: bqt at Update.UU.SE (Johnny Billquist) Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 09:13:02 +0200 (MET DST) Subject: RQDX3 software interleave In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 7 Jun 2000, Roger Ivie wrote: > > Speaking of PITA > >device control, wasn't it the DEC RX02 that wrote address information in > >single density and data in DD? > > Yes, it was. But it was usually done by the hardware (I suppose that > would be microcode in the case of the RX02), so unless you wanted to > do something foolish like read RX02 diskettes in your DD CP/M machine > or format floppies you don't have to worry about it. And in those cases, you loose as well. The RX02 uses a micro-engine to control the drive. No chip controller can switch density in the middle of the track, so RX02 floppies will forever be in the domain of RX02 drives only. Note that formatting RX02 floppes is no problem, since you format them in single density. The RX02 sets a bit in the header if the data is DD, and this is controllable from all DEC OSes that I know of. Johnny Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at update.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA26778 for pups-liszt; Thu, 8 Jun 2000 23:04:30 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Jun 8 23:02:17 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp at world.std.com) Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 09:02:17 -0400 (EDT) Subject: RQDX3 software interleave In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > And in those cases, you loose as well. The RX02 uses a micro-engine to > control the drive. No chip controller can switch density in the middle of > the track, so RX02 floppies will forever be in the domain of RX02 drives > only. IF you must transfer RX02 resident files to a non dec system the only choice is another RX02 or compatable (DSD880 and friends). However, if that is available the disk can be reformatted to SSSD, data written to it and then standard floppy contoller chips and systems that can handle 8" media will work just fine. RX50 and RX33 formatting do not have this liability. Allison Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA27345 for pups-liszt; Fri, 9 Jun 2000 01:38:47 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From tls at rek.tjls.com Fri Jun 9 01:36:34 2000 From: tls at rek.tjls.com (Thor Lancelot Simon) Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 11:36:34 -0400 Subject: Newer BSD thingies....nice but then again.... In-Reply-To: <0006072246.AA16781@ivan.Harhan.ORG>; from msokolov@ivan.Harhan.ORG on Wed, Jun 07, 2000 at 05:46:55PM -0500 References: <0006072246.AA16781@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Message-ID: <20000608113634.A26968@rek.tjls.com> On Wed, Jun 07, 2000 at 05:46:55PM -0500, Michael Sokolov wrote: > jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de wrote: > > > Oh, yes. My VS4000m60 needs only 36 hours to go through a "make build". > > This is pure luxury.=20 > > And 4.3BSD-Quasijarus completes its make build on my CSRG dev mill, which is a > KA655 (3.8 VUPs, whereas your KA46 is 12 VUPs), in a little under 4 hours. The > GENERIC vmunix kernel is another 30 minutes. My experience with compilers on the VAX leads me to believe that the substantial "savings" seen over NetBSD or post-4.3 BSD distributions here is almost entirely due to the compiler and options used. If Quasijarus builds like CSRG 4.3 did, with pcc, it can't even use the optimizer *at all* for the kernel build, due to severe bugs; either way, pcc runs a lot faster than gcc though it generates code that runs a whole lot slower. I'd be willing to bet that gcc -O0 would build NetBSD at least ten times as fast as gcc -O2; the VAX is (as we all know ;-)) a "rather complex" processor, with "rather complex" instruction patterns, gcc is not the swiftest of compilers in the first place, and it does a *lot* of work. Slow machines *are* good for demonstrating how good your compiler is; I recall that rebuilding "compress" with gcc on my 750, way back when, pretty much doubled the amount of Usenet news I could handle in a day. :-) Thor Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA27554 for pups-liszt; Fri, 9 Jun 2000 01:57:10 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG Fri Jun 9 01:54:33 2000 From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov) Date: Thu, 8 Jun 00 10:54:33 CDT Subject: Newer BSD thingies....nice but then again.... Message-ID: <0006081554.AA17948@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Thor Lancelot Simon wrote: > If Quasijarus > builds like CSRG 4.3 did, with pcc [...] It does. > [...] it can't even use the optimizer *at all* > for the kernel build, due to severe bugs [...] Wrong, 4.3BSD-Quasijarus *does* use the optimizer for the kernel build, as did plain 4.3BSD, running c2 -i for the drivers and normally for everything else. -- Michael Sokolov Harhan Engineering Laboratory Public Service Agent International Free Computing Task Force International Engineering and Science Task Force 615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY STE #4 DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA Phone: +1-214-824-7693 (Harhan Eng Lab office) E-mail: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (ARPA TCP/SMTP) (UUCP coming soon) From jasomill at shaffstall.com Fri Jun 9 06:40:15 2000 From: jasomill at shaffstall.com (Jason T. Miller) Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 15:40:15 -0500 (EST) Subject: RX50 on RQDX3 on 2.11BSD In-Reply-To: <200006080445.VAA25310@moe.2bsd.com> Message-ID: > I freshly formatted a floppy. That's one nice thing about the RX33, > the RQDX3 can format floppies using ZRQF?? - RX50's meant getting > preformat'd media or a Rainbow to do the formatting from what I > remember. Unless you have a Shaffstall 6000 -- a really cool piece of equipment once made by my current employer, which is basically a box full of floppy drives (3.5" HD, 5.25" 48tpi, 5.25" 96tpi, 8", and a few, but not mine, have the Amstrad 3" 'flippy-disk') which are all _really_ well-aligned (20% better than OEM spec) and an intelligent disk controller (which is actually an 8085-based SBC) in a PC. About the only disks I _can't_ read (or write or format) with this thing are the 2.88MB 3.5" 'extended-density' disks -- and I have a NeXTstation to read those. Needless to say, I've got no problem formatting RX50s, in any interleave. > write: Read-only file system > 2+0 records in > 2+0 records out That's what I get. > That probably should have been 2+0 and 1+0 since dd read two sectors but > only successfully wrote one. A bug in 'dd' perhaps that it doesn't > decrement the output count on a write error. I noticed that, too. > After doing the "disklabel -W ra9" the "dd" works fine and the floppy > compares identical to the input file. Still haven't tried it. Had to watch the Pacers game and get some needed sleep. > The MSCP driver hasn't changed in quite a while so if you retrieved > 2.11 fairly recently the problem's not a bug in ra.c that I can > see (or if it is, it's particular to the RX50 somehow). I've gone over ra.c several times -- that's a fun piece of code. I've written device drivers before, but really, was this a test of DEC software engineers by DEC hardware engineers? > One more thing I stuffed into the system. You'll also find > "sigaction" and friends along with RTS/CTS flowcontrol (for devices > which support it), and numerous other goodies imported from 4.4BSD (the > latest addition was 'pselect(2)' just a couple months ago). Well, all my serial cables are three-wire (yes, I'm lazy, but I get 1.8K/sec via SLIP at 19200, so I'm not too concerned), but the 'numerous other goodies' I like. As for the userland environment, it's "vanilla BSD" and that's exactly what I know and love. Give me 2.11BSD on a PDP over Solaris on an UltraSPARC any day (well, if anyone wants to _give me_ and UltraSPARC, I'll do the responsible thing and reevaluate my claims -- and SunOS [4.1.x that is] is a decent OS, but anyway, I digress). The only thing I want is command history and filename completion in the Bourne shell (having grown used to Bash -- although it's a big memory pig and I admit I use it only for the previously mentioned features, though I like the PS variable magic characters, too -- I'm thinking about trying to hack the CH features of tcsh (never been a C shell fan) into sh, maybe we should start a 2BSD 'ports' collection? Any suggestions for a name of this shell? Any suggestions for freeing up my time to write it :)? Also, when I get my RX50 toolset for FreeBSD working, should I put it in the archive? It'd probably be more interesting to PUPS'ers than the FreeBSD community At Large. -jtm Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA29341 for pups-liszt; Fri, 9 Jun 2000 08:43:34 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From enf at pobox.com Fri Jun 9 08:41:25 2000 From: enf at pobox.com (Eric Fischer) Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 17:41:25 -0500 (CDT) Subject: unix precursors In-Reply-To: <393F04A1.2A71E151@accesscom.com> References: <200006072250.RAA82201@shell-1.enteract.com> <393F04A1.2A71E151@accesscom.com> Message-ID: <200006082241.RAA99748@shell-2.enteract.com> Paul West writes, > BTW, there apparently were two different timesharing systems developed > for the PDP-1, the second one coming from Bolt, Beranek, and Newman > (BBN). Thanks for reminding me about the Jack Dennis article -- I had forgotten about that one. There were, I think, at least *four* time-sharing systems for the PDP-1. Besides the MIT and BBN ones, there was also the Hospital Computer Project (I'm not sure whether that one was descended from the early BBN system or was written from scratch) and the THOR system at Stanford. I can't give proper citations because I'm currently 2000 miles from my book collection. eric Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA29456 for pups-liszt; Fri, 9 Jun 2000 09:00:50 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From wkt at cs.adfa.edu.au Fri Jun 9 08:58:44 2000 From: wkt at cs.adfa.edu.au (Warren Toomey) Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 08:58:44 +1000 (EST) Subject: tcsh on 2.11BSD In-Reply-To: from "Jason T. Miller" at "Jun 8, 2000 3:40:15 pm" Message-ID: <200006082258.IAA05733@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> In article by Jason T. Miller: > The only thing I want is > command history and filename completion in the Bourne shell (having grown > used to Bash -- although it's a big memory pig and I admit I use it only > for the previously mentioned features, though I like the PS variable magic > characters, too -- I'm thinking about trying to hack the CH features of > tcsh (never been a C shell fan) into sh, maybe we should start a 2BSD > 'ports' collection? Any suggestions for a name of this shell? Any > suggestions for freeing up my time to write it :)? I thought there was a port of an early tcsh to 2.*BSD? Maybe I have poor memory. Anyway, I believe that Minix has a very tiny editline(), which could be squeezed into the 2.11BSD csh to give you command-line editing. > Also, when I get my RX50 toolset for FreeBSD working, should I put it in > the archive? It'd probably be more interesting to PUPS'ers than the > FreeBSD community At Large. Yep, it will go into Tools/ Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA29574 for pups-liszt; Fri, 9 Jun 2000 09:24:11 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From enf at pobox.com Fri Jun 9 09:21:44 2000 From: enf at pobox.com (Eric Fischer) Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 18:21:44 -0500 (CDT) Subject: unix precursors In-Reply-To: <85snuoenl3.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> References: <85snuoenl3.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> Message-ID: <200006082321.SAA57997@shell-1.enteract.com> Lars Brinkhoff writes, > How about ITS, did it influence Unix? If nothing else, the "more" program began as a copy of an ITS feature. And people think of emacs as a Unix program, but it came to Unix from ITS and brought with it things like the "info" documentation format. eric Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA29906 for pups-liszt; Fri, 9 Jun 2000 10:28:15 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From pdub at accesscom.com Fri Jun 9 10:27:13 2000 From: pdub at accesscom.com (Paul West) Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2000 17:27:13 -0700 Subject: unix precursors References: <85snuoenl3.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> Message-ID: <394039E1.ED6AB226@accesscom.com> lars brinkhoff wrote: > How about ITS, did it influence Unix? ITS was quite idiosyncratic, and I do not recall that Richie or Thompson ever mentioned it as an influence on Unix. But you can judge for yourself, if you want. The ITS Reference manual is available at "ftp://publications.ai.mit.edu/ai-publications/0-499/AIM-161A.ps" The source code and system documentation for ITS has been released under the GPL, and is at "ftp://fpt.swiss.ai.mit.edu/pub/its". Happy historical hunting! Paul Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA29925 for pups-liszt; Fri, 9 Jun 2000 10:31:08 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From pdub at accesscom.com Fri Jun 9 10:29:55 2000 From: pdub at accesscom.com (Paul West) Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2000 17:29:55 -0700 Subject: unix precursors (corrected URL) References: <85snuoenl3.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> Message-ID: <39403A83.CDDC2592@accesscom.com> Sorry for the repeat, I mistyped a URL in the first version. Paul --- lars brinkhoff wrote: > How about ITS, did it influence Unix? ITS was quite idiosyncratic, and I do not recall that Richie or Thompson ever mentioned it as an influence on Unix. But you can judge for yourself, if you want. The ITS Reference manual is available at "ftp://publications.ai.mit.edu/ai-publications/0-499/AIM-161A.ps" The source code and system documentation for ITS has been released under the GPL, and is at "ftp://ftp.swiss.ai.mit.edu/pub/its". Happy historical hunting! Paul Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA32362 for pups-liszt; Fri, 9 Jun 2000 19:09:04 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From jasomill at indiana.edu Fri Jun 9 18:55:11 2000 From: jasomill at indiana.edu (Jason T. Miller) Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 03:55:11 -0500 (EST) Subject: RX50 read/write on FreeBSD Message-ID: Thanks to the good advice of members of the PUPS mailing list, I've completed my first stab at an RX50 read/write toolset for FreeBSD. It consists of two parts, a kernel patch to add the physical format, and a filter set to deal with the logical sector interleave. It's ugly (not only does it only support stdin and stdout, but it uses both 'goto' and the ternary operator; I tend to deeply offend the C style gods, late at night when I think nobody's watching), but it seems to work pretty well. The kernel patch, at least, is clean. Those with good karma and flawlessly aligned drive heads can even try formatting their own RX50s. So how do I submit it to the archive? "incoming" seems to be RO. It's about 3K, tarred and gzipped. Jason T. Miller Self-styled Jack of England "..." -Anonymous Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA33589 for pups-liszt; Fri, 9 Jun 2000 23:19:02 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From jasomill at shaffstall.com Fri Jun 9 23:14:11 2000 From: jasomill at shaffstall.com (Jason T. Miller) Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 08:14:11 -0500 (EST) Subject: tcsh on 2.11BSD In-Reply-To: <200006082258.IAA05733@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Message-ID: > I thought there was a port of an early tcsh to 2.*BSD? Maybe I have poor > memory. Anyway, I believe that Minix has a very tiny editline(), which > could be squeezed into the 2.11BSD csh to give you command-line editing. Yup. There's a tcsh included in 2.11BSD; thing is, I'm partial to the Bourne shell. Hence, a project. > > Also, when I get my RX50 toolset for FreeBSD working, should I put it in > > the archive? It'd probably be more interesting to PUPS'ers than the > > FreeBSD community At Large. > > Yep, it will go into Tools/ Well, it's kind of ugly (okay, really ugly), but it's working pretty well. The physical I/O portion is a (miniscule) patch against the 4.0-STABLE FreeBSD kernel, but the interleave filters are pretty much standard C (hideous C, but no BSD tricks) and should work on any raw I/O read of an RX50 disk (you can do it in Linux without kernel mods; see setfdprm(8)). Of course, the filters are only applicable to PDP-11-ish or VAX-ish RX50s; Rainbow and DECmate disks are totally different; if someone wants to implement those things, go ahead (Rainbow MS-DOS could be had with careful mods to mtools, and there are a billion ways to skin a CP/M disk; haven't seen anything on UNIX to handle the DEC WPS file management system, but I digress), but they have little to do with UNIX on the PDP and less to do with me personally (my loving father having discarded my DECmate II as junk about ten years ago). -jtm Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA34013 for pups-liszt; Sat, 10 Jun 2000 00:57:18 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG Sat Jun 10 00:54:25 2000 From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov) Date: Fri, 9 Jun 00 09:54:25 CDT Subject: tcsh on 2.11BSD Message-ID: <0006091454.AA19804@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Jason T. Miller wrote: > (my loving father having discarded my > DECmate II as junk about ten years ago). Then call your nearest DEC dealer, get a quote on the replacement price, and sue your dad for the cost! Or report him to NKVD for vandalism of socialist property. -- Michael Sokolov Harhan Engineering Laboratory Public Service Agent International Free Computing Task Force International Engineering and Science Task Force 615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY STE #4 DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA Phone: +1-214-824-7693 (Harhan Eng Lab office) E-mail: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (ARPA TCP/SMTP) (UUCP coming soon) Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA34141 for pups-liszt; Sat, 10 Jun 2000 01:19:23 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From rivie at teraglobal.com Sat Jun 10 01:16:50 2000 From: rivie at teraglobal.com (Roger Ivie) Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 09:16:50 -0600 Subject: RX50 read/write on FreeBSD In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Jason Miller wrote: >(not only >does it only support stdin and stdout, but it uses both 'goto' and the >ternary operator; I tend to deeply offend the C style gods, late at >night when I think nobody's watching) Could be worse. I deeply offend the C style gods right in the open where everyone can see. Since I'm pretty much a hardware type, I do _everything_ in state machines. While that works great for everything from hardware to Prolog, it does mean my code tends to assume the only available control structure is "if( expr ) goto state;". My attitude is that the state diagram is the program, the code is just an implementation detail. I used to work for a company that did TURBOchannel devices. I did the device drivers for all the platforms (VAX/VMS, Alpha/VMS, Ultrix, and OSF/1) and I shipped source code (it wasn't a conscious decision on the part of management; since I got to build the distribution kits, the source code was included and management simply didn't argue with me). One day I got a letter from someone who had just bought our TURBOchannel parallel printer port offering to go through the code and remove all those evil gotos for the low, low price of only $100 a page. I declined the offer. -- Roger Ivie rivie at teraglobal.com Not speaking for TeraGlobal Communications Corporation Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id DAA37120 for pups-liszt; Sat, 10 Jun 2000 03:55:47 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From bqt at Update.UU.SE Sat Jun 10 03:53:05 2000 From: bqt at Update.UU.SE (Johnny Billquist) Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 19:53:05 +0200 (MET DST) Subject: Newer BSD thingies....nice but then again.... In-Reply-To: <20000608113634.A26968@rek.tjls.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 8 Jun 2000, Thor Lancelot Simon wrote: > On Wed, Jun 07, 2000 at 05:46:55PM -0500, Michael Sokolov wrote: > > jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de wrote: > > > > > Oh, yes. My VS4000m60 needs only 36 hours to go through a "make build". > > > This is pure luxury. > > > > And 4.3BSD-Quasijarus completes its make build on my CSRG dev mill, which is a > > KA655 (3.8 VUPs, whereas your KA46 is 12 VUPs), in a little under 4 hours. The > > GENERIC vmunix kernel is another 30 minutes. > > My experience with compilers on the VAX leads me to believe that the > substantial "savings" seen over NetBSD or post-4.3 BSD distributions here > is almost entirely due to the compiler and options used. If Quasijarus > builds like CSRG 4.3 did, with pcc, it can't even use the optimizer *at all* > for the kernel build, due to severe bugs; either way, pcc runs a lot faster > than gcc though it generates code that runs a whole lot slower. Um. Let me put it this way... Userland is a *lot* smaller in 4.3 than NetBSD... How much time do you think that makes up? The same goes for the kernel. It's not that 4.3 is faster per se, just that it has a lot less to build. > I'd be willing to bet that gcc -O0 would build NetBSD at least ten times > as fast as gcc -O2; the VAX is (as we all know ;-)) a "rather complex" > processor, with "rather complex" instruction patterns, gcc is not the > swiftest of compilers in the first place, and it does a *lot* of work. True. > Slow machines *are* good for demonstrating how good your compiler is; > I recall that rebuilding "compress" with gcc on my 750, way back when, > pretty much doubled the amount of Usenet news I could handle in a day. :-) :-) Johnny Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at update.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id EAA37260 for pups-liszt; Sat, 10 Jun 2000 04:45:23 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From sms at moe.2bsd.com Sat Jun 10 04:42:16 2000 From: sms at moe.2bsd.com (Steven M. Schultz) Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 11:42:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: RX50 on RQDX3 on 2.11BSD Message-ID: <200006091842.LAA18214@moe.2bsd.com> > From: "Jason T. Miller" > > write: Read-only file system > > 2+0 records in > > 2+0 records out > That's what I get. Oh - ok. I must have misread the initial posting that indicated the complete copy went thru dd if=testrx50.img of=/dev/ra12a 800+0 records in 800+0 records out If the writing of the floppy bailed out after "2+0" then it is no wonder the compare later fails - only the first sector was written. > > After doing the "disklabel -W ra9" the "dd" works fine and the floppy > > compares identical to the input file. > > Still haven't tried it. Had to watch the Pacers game and get some needed > sleep. Sleep I can understand :) I really think (and sure hope!) that write enabling the label area will fix the problem. Having to do a "disklabel -W" on a disk before doing 'raw' I/O was a change that came in when labels were implemented. Before labels the tables were compiled into the driver and 'raw' I/O could scribble all over the disk and the system would still know about the partitioning. When I ported over disklabels from 4.3-Reno it seemed like a "Good Thing" to be paranoid about preserving the label sector ;) > I've gone over ra.c several times -- that's a fun piece of code. I've > written device drivers before, but really, was this a test of DEC > software engineers by DEC hardware engineers? You know - I think it was a contest inside DEC to see who would go crazy first. Reading the comments in the Ultrix drivers gave me the impression that even within DEC getting clear and correct documentation wasn't a given. Then there are Chris Torek's comments in the 4.3-Reno and later MSCP drivers when he was in essence reverse engineering (or outright guessing) the MSCP commands, options, etc. > Well, all my serial cables are three-wire (yes, I'm lazy, but I get > 1.8K/sec via SLIP at 19200, so I'm not too concerned), but the 'numerous > other goodies' I like. Hmmm, that's got to be a DHQ or similar. I had real problems with a DHV-11 and character loss when going over 9600. Also, if you want to use "Kermit" you have to have RTS/CTS because that's a fairly heavy weight protocol and the system can't keep up if the rate is too high. With RTS/CTS in place I was able to use 38400 and not loose a single character. > what I know and love. Give me 2.11BSD on a PDP over Solaris on an > UltraSPARC any day (well, if anyone wants to _give me_ and UltraSPARC, Slowaris? "Just say no" - I have to deal with that at work and it was light night and day going from SunOS 4.1.x to Slowaris 2.x on the same hardware. You *need* an UltraSparc just to restore the system responsiveness. > I'll do the responsible thing and reevaluate my claims -- and SunOS [4.1.x > that is] is a decent OS, but anyway, I digress). The only thing I want is Bit long in the tooth and missing a lot of the improvements (and fixes) in the IP/TCP stack that have been made over time. Still, it was a much nicer system. > command history and filename completion in the Bourne shell (having grown > used to Bash -- although it's a big memory pig and I admit I use it only > for the previously mentioned features, though I like the PS variable magic > characters, too -- I'm thinking about trying to hack the CH features of > tcsh (never been a C shell fan) into sh, maybe we should start a 2BSD > 'ports' collection? Any suggestions for a name of this shell? Any > suggestions for freeing up my time to write it :)? Might I suggest "pig"? I like and use 'csh' for everything except the basic scripts that go into the system. Csh has filename completion that works fairly well, only thing it doesn't have is arrowkey driven command editing. But observe the bloat factor that comes with "niceties" such as command history and command editing: First there's the honest to Bourne shell: text data bss dec hex 16576 2356 416 19348 4b94 /bin/sh Then take a look at /bin/csh where there's history and a nicer (to me scripting capability - doing arithmetic in csh is so much easier than in sh): 55744 7104 3682 66530 103e2 total text: 69120 overlays: 7360,6016 Overlaid! Efficiently (the one overlay is called seldom) but overlaid none the less. And lastly 'tcsh' (and yes, there is a port of an older version of tcsh for 2.11): 48960 14844 11986 75790 1280e total text: 140864 overlays: 15424,16000,14144,14016,16256,16064 Zounds! No hope of really being efficient - modules were packed where they would fit. More than doubling the size of 'csh' seems to be a VERY high price to pay for using the arrow keys if you ask me. Oh, and 'tcsh' has another problem due to it's appetite for memory. If it runs out of D space (more likely since it's so much larger) you get logged out. Doing filename completion in 'tcsh' and being in a directory with too many files is a sure way to be staring at the login prompt shortly there after ;) Steven Schultz sms at moe.2bsd.com Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id FAA37372 for pups-liszt; Sat, 10 Jun 2000 05:01:53 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From tls at rek.tjls.com Sat Jun 10 04:59:38 2000 From: tls at rek.tjls.com (Thor Lancelot Simon) Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 14:59:38 -0400 Subject: Newer BSD thingies....nice but then again.... In-Reply-To: ; from bqt@Update.UU.SE on Fri, Jun 09, 2000 at 07:53:05PM +0200 References: <20000608113634.A26968@rek.tjls.com> Message-ID: <20000609145938.A6135@rek.tjls.com> On Fri, Jun 09, 2000 at 07:53:05PM +0200, Johnny Billquist wrote: > > > > My experience with compilers on the VAX leads me to believe that the > > substantial "savings" seen over NetBSD or post-4.3 BSD distributions here > > is almost entirely due to the compiler and options used. If Quasijarus > > builds like CSRG 4.3 did, with pcc, it can't even use the optimizer *at all* > > for the kernel build, due to severe bugs; either way, pcc runs a lot faster > > than gcc though it generates code that runs a whole lot slower. > > Um. Let me put it this way... Userland is a *lot* smaller in 4.3 than > NetBSD... How much time do you think that makes up? The same goes for the > kernel. It's not that 4.3 is faster per se, just that it has a lot less to > build. Well, of course it does. But it's also well worth keeping in mind that while pcc is generally inferior to gcc in almost every other way, due to its simplicity it *is* probably at least five times as fast. A lot of the difference in speed we're talking about here, particularly with regard to the kernel, is due to the use of a much slower compiler; as much of the kernel as you *have* to build for a VAX (as opposed to what you *can* build if you *want to*) hasn't really bloated a lot between 4.3 and NetBSD. Runtime memory use is a somewhat different matter, but we do still fit into Ragge's smaller VAXen pretty well. Thanks to Michael for reminding me exactly what the situation with the optimizer and kernel builds under 4.3 is. Though I think he forgot to mention "inline" (ack! pffffft!)... :-) -- Thor Lancelot Simon tls at rek.tjls.com "And where do all these highways go, now that we are free?" Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id FAA37445 for pups-liszt; Sat, 10 Jun 2000 05:21:16 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG Sat Jun 10 05:18:21 2000 From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov) Date: Fri, 9 Jun 00 14:18:21 CDT Subject: Newer BSD thingies....nice but then again.... Message-ID: <0006091918.AA20337@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Thor Lancelot Simon wrote: > Thanks to Michael for reminding me exactly what the situation with > the optimizer and kernel builds under 4.3 is. Though I think he > forgot to mention "inline" (ack! pffffft!)... :-) We do use inline of course. I love it. -- Michael Sokolov Harhan Engineering Laboratory Public Service Agent International Free Computing Task Force International Engineering and Science Task Force 615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY STE #4 DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA Phone: +1-214-824-7693 (Harhan Eng Lab office) E-mail: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (ARPA TCP/SMTP) (UUCP coming soon) Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id FAA37569 for pups-liszt; Sat, 10 Jun 2000 05:39:28 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From obrien at NUXI.com Sat Jun 10 05:37:25 2000 From: obrien at NUXI.com (David O'Brien) Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 12:37:25 -0700 Subject: PLEASE TAKE THIS ELSEWHERE (was Re: RX50 on RQDX3 on 2.11BSD) In-Reply-To: <200006091842.LAA18214@moe.2bsd.com>; from sms@moe.2bsd.com on Fri, Jun 09, 2000 at 11:42:16AM -0700 References: <200006091842.LAA18214@moe.2bsd.com> Message-ID: <20000609123725.S55675@dragon.nuxi.com> This thread has gotten *way* beyond what I (and I'll bet many others) read this list for. From jasomill at shaffstall.com Sat Jun 10 06:17:48 2000 From: jasomill at shaffstall.com (Jason T. Miller) Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 15:17:48 -0500 (EST) Subject: RX02 diskettes Message-ID: > And in those cases, you loose as well. The RX02 uses a micro-engine to > control the drive. No chip controller can switch density in the middle > of > the track, so RX02 floppies will forever be in the domain of RX02 drives > only. Funny thing. I read 'em on my PS/2. I Am Not Making This Up. No prefabricated single-chip floppy controller, methinks... -jtm Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id HAA38020 for pups-liszt; Sat, 10 Jun 2000 07:01:22 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From SHOPPA at trailing-edge.com Sat Jun 10 06:59:09 2000 From: SHOPPA at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 16:59:09 -0400 Subject: PLEASE TAKE THIS ELSEWHERE (was Re: RX50 on RQDX3 on 2.11BSD) Message-ID: <000609165909.20200fd8@trailing-edge.com> > This thread has gotten *way* beyond what I (and I'll bet many others) > read this list for. I *think* you wrote this in reply to Steven Schultz's message, (at least that's the impression I got from the headers indicating it was a direct reply to his message), but that doesn't make much sense because what he wrote about was *exactly* on target for what this list is about: Running Unix on PDP-11's. OK, his jabs at Solaris probably weren't exactly on topic, but let's look at what else he discussed: * The disklabel implementation on 2.11BSD and its roots in other Unices. * The history of MSCP drivers in 2.11BSD and other BSD-derived Unices. * Efficient use of DHQ and DHV async multiplexers in Unix. * The history of sh, csh, and tcsh, some introduction to how they use overlays on PDP-11 Unices, and the application of split I/D techniques to their operation. All of these are, IMHO, very worthy topics of discussion for a mailing list about PDP-11 Unix, and they were all direct from the expert on the subject(s). What else would a subscriber to the PUPS list be looking for? -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa at trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id HAA38149 for pups-liszt; Sat, 10 Jun 2000 07:23:38 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From gqueri at mail.dotcom.fr Sat Jun 10 07:20:51 2000 From: gqueri at mail.dotcom.fr (Gael Queri) Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 23:20:51 +0200 Subject: tcsh on 2.11BSD In-Reply-To: ; from jasomill@shaffstall.com on Fri, Jun 09, 2000 at 08:13:49AM -0500 References: <200006082258.IAA05733@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Message-ID: <20000609232051.A28762@baoule.ath.cx> On Fri, Jun 09, 2000 at 08:13:49AM -0500, Jason T. Miller wrote: > > I thought there was a port of an early tcsh to 2.*BSD? Maybe I have poor > > memory. Anyway, I believe that Minix has a very tiny editline(), which > > could be squeezed into the 2.11BSD csh to give you command-line editing. > Yup. There's a tcsh included in 2.11BSD; thing is, I'm partial to the > Bourne shell. Hence, a project. And did you try to do something with pdksh? It's smaller than tcsh and it has filename completion and support for reentrant history (contrary to bash) look at ftp.cs.mun.ca:/pub/pdksh/ Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA38483 for pups-liszt; Sat, 10 Jun 2000 08:25:41 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From obrien at NUXI.com Sat Jun 10 08:23:55 2000 From: obrien at NUXI.com (David O'Brien) Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 15:23:55 -0700 Subject: PLEASE TAKE THIS ELSEWHERE (was Re: RX50 on RQDX3 on 2.11BSD) In-Reply-To: <000609165909.20200fd8@trailing-edge.com>; from SHOPPA@trailing-edge.com on Fri, Jun 09, 2000 at 04:59:09PM -0400 References: <000609165909.20200fd8@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <20000609152354.A60849@dragon.nuxi.com> On Fri, Jun 09, 2000 at 04:59:09PM -0400, Tim Shoppa wrote: > > This thread has gotten *way* beyond what I (and I'll bet many others) > > read this list for. > > I *think* you wrote this in reply to Steven Schultz's message, (at least Yes, I wrote it in reply to Steven's message. Not it as not directed directly at Steven, it is for everyone that is engaged in this hardware discussion. > All of these are, IMHO, very worthy topics of discussion for a mailing > list about PDP-11 Unix, and they were all direct from the expert on the > subject(s). What else would a subscriber to the PUPS list be looking for? This goes back to the UHS / PUPS discussion. I didn't vote so before, but maybe it is time to separate the mail for the two. I agree that the first posts were interesting in the historical insight that could be gained. But this thread has turned into a rather long hardware discussion applicable to only a handful of people that have this hardware. I do not mean to be mean, but it seems moving this to some PDP-11 list (I guess one needs to be created) would be possible. -- -- David (obrien at NUXI.com) Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA39191 for pups-liszt; Sat, 10 Jun 2000 11:34:36 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From SHOPPA at trailing-edge.com Sat Jun 10 11:32:24 2000 From: SHOPPA at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 21:32:24 -0400 Subject: PLEASE TAKE THIS ELSEWHERE (was Re: RX50 on RQDX3 on 2.11BSD) Message-ID: <000609213224.20200fd8@trailing-edge.com> >> > This thread has gotten *way* beyond what I (and I'll bet many others) >> > read this list for. >> >> I *think* you wrote this in reply to Steven Schultz's message, (at least >Yes, I wrote it in reply to Steven's message. Not it as not directed >directly at Steven, it is for everyone that is engaged in this hardware >discussion. Actually, Steven did a *very* good job at turning a hardware-oriented discussion to issues very much related to the history and maintainence of Unix. Besides, if anyone here wants to really know about RX50 interleaving, they should go read one of CJL's posts from the Lasnerian early 90's to alt.sys.pdp8/PDP8-LOVERS about RX50 interleave. I swear, it was a tome that was a good chunk of a megabyte long. >> All of these are, IMHO, very worthy topics of discussion for a mailing >> list about PDP-11 Unix, and they were all direct from the expert on the >> subject(s). What else would a subscriber to the PUPS list be looking for? >This goes back to the UHS / PUPS discussion. I didn't vote so before, >but maybe it is time to separate the mail for the two. I agree that the >first posts were interesting in the historical insight that could be >gained. But this thread has turned into a rather long hardware >discussion applicable to only a handful of people that have this >hardware. I view it the other way - the original posts offered little historical insight, but the last one by Steven drew it very much back to Unix. >I do not mean to be mean, but it seems moving this to some PDP-11 list (I >guess one needs to be created) would be possible. Indeed, there is a PDP-11 mailing list (info-pdp11 at village.org) already, gatewayed to the Usenet newsgroup vmsnet.pdp-11. To a large extent, though, you can't blame members of the PUPS mailing list from occasionally straying from "Unix in general" to the "PDP-11 in particular", because that's a good part of what the list was originally created for (even though you might not have joined until the The Unix Heritage Society solidified...) If there was a more general "Unix Heritage Society" mailing list, would platform-specific discussions be banned from that? I probably would be bored to tears by any such restrictions, as there would be no opportunities to give concrete examples. Tim. Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA39261 for pups-liszt; Sat, 10 Jun 2000 11:57:16 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From grog at lemis.com Sat Jun 10 11:54:48 2000 From: grog at lemis.com (Greg Lehey) Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 11:24:48 +0930 Subject: PLEASE TAKE THIS ELSEWHERE (was Re: RX50 on RQDX3 on 2.11BSD) In-Reply-To: <20000609152354.A60849@dragon.nuxi.com> References: <000609165909.20200fd8@trailing-edge.com> <20000609152354.A60849@dragon.nuxi.com> Message-ID: <20000610112448.K81728@wantadilla.lemis.com> On Friday, 9 June 2000 at 15:23:55 -0700, David O'Brien wrote: > On Fri, Jun 09, 2000 at 04:59:09PM -0400, Tim Shoppa wrote: >>> This thread has gotten *way* beyond what I (and I'll bet many others) >>> read this list for. >> >> I *think* you wrote this in reply to Steven Schultz's message, (at least > > Yes, I wrote it in reply to Steven's message. Not it as not directed > directly at Steven, it is for everyone that is engaged in this hardware > discussion. > >> All of these are, IMHO, very worthy topics of discussion for a mailing >> list about PDP-11 Unix, and they were all direct from the expert on the >> subject(s). What else would a subscriber to the PUPS list be looking for? > > This goes back to the UHS / PUPS discussion. I didn't vote so before, > but maybe it is time to separate the mail for the two. I agree that the > first posts were interesting in the historical insight that could be > gained. But this thread has turned into a rather long hardware > discussion applicable to only a handful of people that have this > hardware. > > I do not mean to be mean, but it seems moving this to some PDP-11 list (I > guess one needs to be created) would be possible. Well, FWIW this *is* the PDP-11 list. But I thought it was interesting way beyond the PDP-11 aspect. Some of these things (write-protected labels, for example) still shape FreeBSD, for example. I don't think we really have enough mail to justify two lists. Most of us probably ditch more than 50% of their mail every day anyway; if this doesn't interest you, why not just delete it? Greg -- Finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers From cpg at aladdin.de Mon Jun 12 08:35:18 2000 From: cpg at aladdin.de (Christian Groessler) Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 23:35:18 +0100 Subject: problems booting 2.11_rp_unknown Message-ID: <412568FB.0081A620.00@saturn.aladdin.de> Hi, (Sorry if this is a FAQ) I'm trying to boot the 2.11_rp_unknown image from Boot_Images. This is what happens: ---------------------- gibbon:/net/scharfzahn/playing/boot_images$ pdp11 PDP-11 simulator V2.3d sim> set cpu 18b sim> att rp0 2.11_rp_unknown sim> boot rp 53Boot from xp(0,0,0) at 0176700 : xp(0,0,0)unix Boot: bootdev=05000 bootcsr=0176700 2.11 BSD UNIX #11: Tue Jan 6 16:57:02 MET 1998 root at pdp11.begemot.com:/usr/src/sys/HIPPON panic: buffers no fs on dev 10/0 dumping to dev 5001 off 512 dump args:EINVAL HALT instruction, PC: 006606 (JSR R5,3162) sim> ---------------------- What am I doing wrong? regards, chris Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA51856 for pups-liszt; Mon, 12 Jun 2000 09:41:54 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From sms at moe.2bsd.com Mon Jun 12 09:36:45 2000 From: sms at moe.2bsd.com (Steven M. Schultz) Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 16:36:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: problems booting 2.11_rp_unknown Message-ID: <200006112336.QAA12888@moe.2bsd.com> Hi - > From: "Christian Groessler" > > I'm trying to boot the 2.11_rp_unknown image from Boot_Images. > This is what happens: > > PDP-11 simulator V2.3d > sim> set cpu 18b Try "set cpu 22b" instead. Using 18b tells the simulator you have a 248kb (and 8kb for the I/O page) machine and that is not enough for 2.11 to load and allocate all the resources it needs. > panic: buffers Yep -that panic message says the kernel could not allocate any memory for the buffer cache. I am almost certain that means there is not enough free memory left out of 248kb. > What am I doing wrong? Try telling the emulator to use "22bit" mode. If that still fails let us know. Then it will be time for "Plan B" ;) Steven Schultz sms at moe.2bsd.com Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA52060 for pups-liszt; Mon, 12 Jun 2000 10:45:16 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From cpg at aladdin.de Mon Jun 12 10:37:24 2000 From: cpg at aladdin.de (Christian Groessler) Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 01:37:24 +0100 Subject: problems booting 2.11_rp_unknown Message-ID: <412568FC.00096F95.00@saturn.aladdin.de> On 06/11/2000 11:36:45 PM GMT "Steven M. Schultz" wrote: > >> >> PDP-11 simulator V2.3d >> sim> set cpu 18b > > Try "set cpu 22b" instead. Using 18b tells the simulator you have > a 248kb (and 8kb for the I/O page) machine and that is not enough > for 2.11 to load and allocate all the resources it needs. > >> panic: buffers > > Yep -that panic message says the kernel could not allocate any > memory for the buffer cache. I am almost certain that means > there is not enough free memory left out of 248kb. > >> What am I doing wrong? > > Try telling the emulator to use "22bit" mode. If that still > fails let us know. Then it will be time for "Plan B" ;) Hmm, sorry, it still doesn't work: --------------------- gibbon:/net/scharfzahn/playing/boot_images$ pdp11 PDP-11 simulator V2.3d sim> set cpu 22b sim> att rp0 2.11_rp_unknown sim> boot rp 53Boot from xp(0,0,0) at 0176700 : xp(0,0,0)unix Boot: bootdev=05000 bootcsr=0176700 2.11 BSD UNIX #11: Tue Jan 6 16:57:02 MET 1998 root at pdp11.begemot.com:/usr/src/sys/HIPPON panic: buffers no fs on dev 10/0 dumping to dev 5001 off 512 dump args:EINVAL HALT instruction, PC: 006606 (JSR R5,3162) sim> --------------------- What is "Plan B"? :-) regards, chris Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA52223 for pups-liszt; Mon, 12 Jun 2000 11:41:50 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From sms at moe.2bsd.com Mon Jun 12 11:33:37 2000 From: sms at moe.2bsd.com (Steven M. Schultz) Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 18:33:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: problems booting 2.11_rp_unknown Message-ID: <200006120133.SAA13674@moe.2bsd.com> > From: "Christian Groessler" > Hmm, sorry, it still doesn't work: > sim> set cpu 22b > sim> att rp0 2.11_rp_unknown > sim> boot rp > What is "Plan B"? :-) Plan B is to specify the amount of memory directly. Simply saying "set cpu 22B" tells the emulator to use 22 bit addressing - but it does not say how much memory the system has (it's possible to have 1mb of memory even though ~4mb is possible). Try using both "set cpu 22B" and "set cpu 2048K" - that worked here. It may well be that only "set cpu 2048K" is actually needed - I didn't try that by itself. Script started on Sun Jun 11 18:30:40 2000 moe.1-> cat f set cpu 22B set cpu 2048K att rp0 rp boot rp moe.2-> pdp11 f PDP-11 simulator V2.3d 53Boot from xp(0,0,0) at 0176700 : : xp(0,0,0)unix Boot: bootdev=05000 bootcsr=0176700 2.11 BSD UNIX #11: Tue Jan 6 16:57:02 MET 1998 root at pdp11.begemot.com:/usr/src/sys/HIPPON attaching lo0 phys mem = 2097152 avail mem = 1668352 user mem = 307200 January 8 06:50:29 init: configure system lp 0 csr 177514 vector 200 attached rl 0 csr 174400 vector 160 attached tm 0 csr 172520 vector 224 attached xp 0 csr 176700 vector 254 attached cn 1 csr 176500 vector 300 skipped: No CSR. cn 2 csr 176510 vector 310 skipped: No CSR. cn 3 csr 176520 vector 320 skipped: No CSR. cn 4 csr 176530 vector 330 skipped: No CSR. erase, kill ^U, intr ^C # halt syncing disks... done halting HALT instruction, PC: 000014 (MOV #1,12456) sim> q Goodbye moe.3-> exit exit Script done on Sun Jun 11 18:30:59 2000 Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA55064 for pups-liszt; Mon, 12 Jun 2000 23:39:41 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From cpg at aladdin.de Mon Jun 12 23:34:47 2000 From: cpg at aladdin.de (Christian Groessler) Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 14:34:47 +0100 Subject: problems booting 2.11_rp_unknown Message-ID: <412568FC.005055C9.00@saturn.aladdin.de> On 06/12/2000 01:33:37 AM GMT "Steven M. Schultz" wrote: > > Plan B is to specify the amount of memory directly. Simply saying > "set cpu 22B" tells the emulator to use 22 bit addressing - but it > does not say how much memory the system has (it's possible to have > 1mb of memory even though ~4mb is possible). > > Try using both "set cpu 22B" and "set cpu 2048K" - that worked here. > > It may well be that only "set cpu 2048K" is actually needed - I didn't > try that by itself. It works :-) :-) Thanks for your help! regards, chris Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA55279 for pups-liszt; Tue, 13 Jun 2000 00:14:34 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From tfb at cley.com Tue Jun 13 00:11:30 2000 From: tfb at cley.com (Tim Bradshaw) Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 15:11:30 +0100 (BST) Subject: PLEASE TAKE THIS ELSEWHERE (was Re: RX50 on RQDX3 on 2.11BSD) In-Reply-To: <20000609152354.A60849@dragon.nuxi.com> References: <000609165909.20200fd8@trailing-edge.com> <20000609152354.A60849@dragon.nuxi.com> Message-ID: <14660.61330.622418.671382@cley.com> * David O'Brien wrote: > This goes back to the UHS / PUPS discussion. I didn't vote so before, > but maybe it is time to separate the mail for the two. I agree that the > first posts were interesting in the historical insight that could be > gained. But this thread has turned into a rather long hardware > discussion applicable to only a handful of people that have this > hardware. > I do not mean to be mean, but it seems moving this to some PDP-11 list (I > guess one needs to be created) would be possible. Please don't. I love reading discussions of random old bits of hardware, and such discussions have gone on on the PUPS list for a long time. --tim From wkt at cs.adfa.edu.au Tue Jun 13 08:50:48 2000 From: wkt at cs.adfa.edu.au (Warren Toomey) Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 08:50:48 +1000 (EST) Subject: New Unix Heritage List, was Re: PLEASE TAKE THIS ELSEWHERE In-Reply-To: <20000609152354.A60849@dragon.nuxi.com> from "David O'Brien" at "Jun 9, 2000 3:23:55 pm" Message-ID: <200006122250.IAA24777@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> In article by David O'Brien: > I do not mean to be mean, but it seems moving this to some PDP-11 list (I > guess one needs to be created) would be possible. I will create one today or tomorrow: tuhs at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Unix Heritage pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au PDP-11 Unix You will all be subscribed to both lists. To be removed from a list, send e-mail to majordomo at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au with the line unsubscribe pups, or unsubscribe tuhs For those on the digested list (twice weekly), ditto except unsubscribe pups-digest, or unsubscribe tuhs-digest I will announce the new list(s) using them as a vehicle soon. That way, the announcement becomes some test mail :) Until then, tolerate the system-specific e-mail for just a bit longer. Cheers, Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA57976 for pups-liszt; Tue, 13 Jun 2000 08:57:48 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From obrien at NUXI.com Tue Jun 13 08:55:42 2000 From: obrien at NUXI.com (David O'Brien) Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 15:55:42 -0700 Subject: New Unix Heritage List, was Re: PLEASE TAKE THIS ELSEWHERE In-Reply-To: <200006122250.IAA24777@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>; from wkt@cs.adfa.edu.au on Tue, Jun 13, 2000 at 08:50:48AM +1000 References: <20000609152354.A60849@dragon.nuxi.com> <200006122250.IAA24777@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Message-ID: <20000612155542.G27421@dragon.nuxi.com> On Tue, Jun 13, 2000 at 08:50:48AM +1000, Warren Toomey wrote: > In article by David O'Brien: > > I do not mean to be mean, but it seems moving this to some PDP-11 list (I > > guess one needs to be created) would be possible. Hi Warren, I was wrong for my email. The feed back has been that people like the combined list. I have to admit I too like to see some of the PDP-11 info. I just felt the last thread had gotten off topic when it moved on to purely PDP-11 hardware. I have been told I was wrong. -- -- David (obrien at NUXI.com) Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA58018 for pups-liszt; Tue, 13 Jun 2000 09:08:23 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From wkt at cs.adfa.edu.au Tue Jun 13 09:05:56 2000 From: wkt at cs.adfa.edu.au (Warren Toomey) Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 09:05:56 +1000 (EST) Subject: New Unix Heritage List, was Re: PLEASE TAKE THIS ELSEWHERE In-Reply-To: <20000612155542.G27421@dragon.nuxi.com> from "David O'Brien" at "Jun 12, 2000 3:55:42 pm" Message-ID: <200006122305.JAA24939@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> In article by David O'Brien: > I was wrong for my email. The feed back has been that people like the > combined list. I have to admit I too like to see some of the PDP-11 > info. I just felt the last thread had gotten off topic when it moved on > to purely PDP-11 hardware. I have been told I was wrong. > -- David (obrien at NUXI.com) Everybody, here is a person who has courage & honesty. Thanks for that, David. However, I will still create two groups, because it will allow more specific content to be addressed where relevant. Cheers! Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA58497 for pups-liszt; Tue, 13 Jun 2000 10:45:22 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From wkt at cs.adfa.edu.au Tue Jun 13 10:40:04 2000 From: wkt at cs.adfa.edu.au (Warren Toomey) Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 10:40:04 +1000 (EST) Subject: New: PDP-11 Unix Mailing List Message-ID: <200006130040.KAA25608@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Hello, This is to inform you that you are subscribed to the PDP Unix Preservation Society's mailing list at pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au. This list is specifically to deal with running versions of Unix on the PDP-11 platforms. If you are not interested in this topic, please send some e-mail to majordomo at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au with the folllwing line in the body of the message: unsubscribe pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au If you are subscribed to the digest version, then you can unsubscribe by sending e-mail to majordomo at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au with the folllwing line in the body of the message: unsubscribe pups-digest at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Cheers! Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA60574 for pups-liszt; Tue, 13 Jun 2000 18:09:44 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From leypold at informatik.uni-tuebingen.de Tue Jun 13 18:07:05 2000 From: leypold at informatik.uni-tuebingen.de (Markus Leypold) Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 10:07:05 +0200 (CEST) Subject: PLEASE TAKE THIS ELSEWHERE (was Re: RX50 on RQDX3 on 2.11BSD) In-Reply-To: <14660.61330.622418.671382@cley.com> (message from Tim Bradshaw on Mon, 12 Jun 2000 15:11:30 +0100 (BST)) References: <000609165909.20200fd8@trailing-edge.com> <20000609152354.A60849@dragon.nuxi.com> <14660.61330.622418.671382@cley.com> Message-ID: <200006130807.KAA54220@informatik.uni-tuebingen.de> > Delivered-To: leypold at lesbains.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de > From: Tim Bradshaw > Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 15:11:30 +0100 (BST) > Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au > > * David O'Brien wrote: > > > This goes back to the UHS / PUPS discussion. I didn't vote so before, > > but maybe it is time to separate the mail for the two. I agree that the > > first posts were interesting in the historical insight that could be > > gained. But this thread has turned into a rather long hardware > > discussion applicable to only a handful of people that have this > > hardware. > > > I do not mean to be mean, but it seems moving this to some PDP-11 list (I > > guess one needs to be created) would be possible. > > Please don't. I love reading discussions of random old bits of > hardware, and such discussions have gone on on the PUPS list for a > long time. So do I. Actually I can understand the need of some participants to somehow reduce their mail volume. On the other side, it seems to be quite difficult to draw the exact line between on- and offtopic. Personally I try to filter as good as I can, and admittedly I do not read everything at once (and sometimes only weeks later). Regards -- Markus Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id FAA63516 for pups-liszt; Wed, 14 Jun 2000 05:00:47 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From grog at lemis.com Tue Jun 13 04:49:12 2000 From: grog at lemis.com (Greg Lehey) Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 11:49:12 -0700 Subject: Future Direction for PUPS and UHS In-Reply-To: <200006010025.KAA49471@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> References: <200006010025.KAA49471@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Message-ID: <20000612114912.G242@sydney.worldwide.lemis.com> On Thursday, 1 June 2000 at 10:25:34 +1000, Warren Toomey wrote: > All, > A discussion has started up on the PUPS volunteers list about the > future direction we should take in terms of the PUPS Archive. > > For those people new to this list, here's a bit of background. Originally > I set up the PDP-11 UNIX Preservation Society, the mailing list and the > Archive as that was my interest. > > Since then, we've attracted people with interests in other Unixes, such > as the 4BSDs, and other hardware platforms such as the Vax, the 68k Suns > etc. > > A while back, I changed the charter of the mailing list to encompass any > Unix-related questions, epecially to those systems which are now treated > as `ancient' by the mainstream, even if they are being maintained (e.g > 2.11BSD and the Quasijarus project). > > I also tried to create an umbrella organisation, the Unix Heritage Society > (http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/TUHS/), which would allow a number of groups > like PUPS and Quasijarus to form, and so that we could co-ordinate their > efforts. I must admit I haven't put much effort into this idea. > > Now, the PUPS Archive (PUPS in name, but it contains lots more than PDP-11 > stuff) is accumulating more and more stuff. Some people want to see a > mainly PDP-11 archive, other want to try and archive everything before it > goes off to /dev/null. > > So, I want to survey the mailing list here for ideas about the charter of > the Unix Heritage Society, and a way of setting up one or multiple archives, > mailing lists, web pages etc. as I originally envisioned. > > Questions: > - should we keep one archive, or have multiple archives? I don't really think it makes any difference. Structure one archive well, and you can get the individual platform archives simply by going down a directory level. The problem is, of course, that some software can be relevant to multiple platforms. > - if one, what structure (divisions on platforms, on vendors etc.) I'd be inclined to go for the hardware platform, but I haven't thought it through. Ultimately it would probably depend on the nature of the software that came in. > - if you have a keen interest in one platform/system, would you > consider becoming the leader of an interest group that could > sit under the Unix Heritage Society umbrella? No, I don't think so. But you might be able to twist my arm. > - do you want to set up and maintain a more specific archive, > mailing list, web site, that the Unix Heritage Society could > point to? No. > - do you want this current mailing list to stay ``all-encompassing'', > or would you rather have more specific lists? Personally I'd like it to be all-encompassing, but then, it's only a small part of the 1000 messages I get per day, and it's easy to delete messages I don't want to read. > [ now stands back for the deluge! ] That really happened, didn't it? Greg -- Finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers From wrking at tsoft.com Wed Jun 14 17:28:13 2000 From: wrking at tsoft.com (William King) Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 00:28:13 -0700 Subject: New: PDP-11 Unix Mailing List Message-ID: <000001bfd5d2$1934c380$bf01a8c0@dadaboom.com> Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA67358 for pups-liszt; Wed, 14 Jun 2000 21:39:21 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From lars at nocrew.org Wed Jun 14 19:32:07 2000 From: lars at nocrew.org (lars brinkhoff) Date: 14 Jun 2000 11:32:07 +0200 Subject: Help reviewing processor features In-Reply-To: Greg Lehey's message of "Mon, 12 Jun 2000 11:49:12 -0700" Message-ID: <85itvcbobs.fsf_-_@junk.nocrew.org> The following is source code taken verbatim from my PDP-11 support code for the GNU assembler. Any help correcting errors would be appreciated. This code tells the assembler what instruction set features to recognize depending on what processor the user wants to assemble for. Individual features can also be enabled, e.g. if a processor option is installed. The instruction set features are: cis Commersial instruction set (optional on all processors?). csm CSM instruction. eis Extended instruction set: MUL, DIV, ASH, ASHC, and all of limited-eis. fis KEV11 floating-point instructions. fpp FP-11 floating-point instructions. limited-eis Limited extended instruction set: RTT, MARK, SXT, XOR, SOB. mfpt MFPT instruction. multiproc Multiprocessor instructions: TSTSET, WRTLCK. mxps MFPS and MTPS instructions. spl SPLx instructions. ucode Microcode instructions: LDUB, MED, XFC. if (strncmp (buf, "a", 1) == 0) /* KA11 (11/15/20) */ return 1; /* no extensions */ else if (strncmp (buf, "b", 1) == 0) /* KB11 (11/45/50/55/70) */ return set_option ("eis") && set_option ("spl"); else if (strncmp (buf, "da", 2) == 0) /* KD11-A (11/35/40) */ return set_option ("limited-eis"); else if (strncmp (buf, "db", 2) == 0 || /* KD11-B (11/05/10) */ strncmp (buf, "dd", 2) == 0) /* KD11-D (11/04) */ return 1; /* no extensions */ else if (strncmp (buf, "de", 2) == 0) /* KD11-E (11/34) */ return set_option ("eis") && set_option ("mxps"); else if (strncmp (buf, "df", 2) == 0 || /* KD11-F (11/03) */ strncmp (buf, "dh", 2) == 0 || /* KD11-H (11/03) */ strncmp (buf, "dq", 2) == 0) /* KD11-Q (11/03) */ return set_option ("limited-eis") && set_option ("mxps"); else if (strncmp (buf, "dk", 2) == 0) /* KD11-K (11/60) */ return set_option ("eis") && set_option ("mxps") && set_option ("ucode"); else if (strncmp (buf, "dz", 2) == 0) /* KD11-Z (11/44) */ return set_option ("csm") && set_option ("eis") && set_option ("mfpt") && set_option ("mxps") && set_option ("spl"); else if (strncmp (buf, "f", 1) == 0) /* F11 (11/24) */ return set_option ("eis") && set_option ("mfpt") && set_option ("mxps"); else if (strncmp (buf, "j", 1) == 0) /* J11 (11/53/73/83/84/93/94)*/ return set_option ("csm") && set_option ("eis") && set_option ("mfpt") && set_option ("multiproc") && set_option ("mxps") && set_option ("spl"); else if (strncmp (buf, "t", 1) == 0) /* T11 (11/21) */ return set_option ("limited-eis") && set_option ("mxps"); From lars at nocrew.org Thu Jun 15 17:35:50 2000 From: lars at nocrew.org (lars brinkhoff) Date: 15 Jun 2000 09:35:50 +0200 Subject: Help reviewing PDP-11 model processors Message-ID: <85ya478kh5.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> The following message is a courtesy copy of an article that has been posted to alt.sys.pdp11 as well. Time for the second round of assembler source code review. If the user specifies a PDP-11 model to the assembler (e.g. -m11/45), this code is used to tell the assembler what processor to assemble for. Also, in one case (11/34a), the model enables FP-11 floating-point instructions. Should this be done for 11/34c too? If there are any other models with otherwise optional features installed, I'd like to know. if (strcmp (arg, "03") == 0) /* 11/03 */ return set_cpu_model ("kd11f"); /* KD11-F */ else if (strcmp (arg, "04") == 0) /* 11/04 */ return set_cpu_model ("kd11d"); /* KD11-D */ else if (strcmp (arg, "05") == 0 || /* 11/05 or 11/10 */ strcmp (arg, "10") == 0) return set_cpu_model ("kd11b"); /* KD11-B */ else if (strcmp (arg, "15") == 0 || /* 11/15 or 11/20 */ strcmp (arg, "20") == 0) return set_cpu_model ("ka11"); /* KA11 */ else if (strcmp (arg, "21") == 0) /* 11/21 */ return set_cpu_model ("t11"); /* T11 */ else if (strcmp (arg, "24") == 0) /* 11/24 */ return set_cpu_model ("f11"); /* F11 */ else if (strcmp (arg, "34") == 0) /* 11/34 */ return set_cpu_model ("kd11e"); /* KD11-E */ else if (strcmp (arg, "34a") == 0) /* 11/34a */ return set_cpu_model ("kd11e") && /* KD11-E with FP-11 */ set_option ("fpp"); else if (strcmp (arg, "35") == 0 || /* 11/35 or 11/40 */ strcmp (arg, "40") == 0) return set_cpu_model ("kd11da"); /* KD11-A */ else if (strcmp (arg, "44") == 0) /* 11/44 */ return set_cpu_model ("kd11dz"); /* KD11-Z */ else if (strcmp (arg, "45") == 0 || /* 11/45/50/55/70 */ strcmp (arg, "50") == 0 || strcmp (arg, "55") == 0 || strcmp (arg, "70") == 0) return set_cpu_model ("kb11"); /* KB11 */ else if (strcmp (arg, "60") == 0) /* 11/60 */ return set_cpu_model ("kd11k"); /* KD11-K */ else if (strcmp (arg, "53") == 0 || /* 11/53/73/83/84/93/94 */ strcmp (arg, "73") == 0 || strcmp (arg, "83") == 0 || strcmp (arg, "84") == 0 || strcmp (arg, "93") == 0 || strcmp (arg, "94") == 0) return set_cpu_model ("j11"); /* J11 */ Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA78381 for pups-liszt; Fri, 16 Jun 2000 11:09:19 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From SHOPPA at trailing-edge.com Fri Jun 16 11:06:31 2000 From: SHOPPA at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 21:06:31 -0400 Subject: Bunch of Unix tapes rescued Message-ID: <000615210631.262000b2@trailing-edge.com> On an Expedition to NJ Tuesday, I rescued about 3/4 of a ton of magtapes. Some of these will probably be interesting for the PUPS archive. In particular, I'm reading through seven of 'em tonight. If someone could explain to me how "Unix System V Release 2.0" and "Unix System III" work into the grand scheme of AT&T Unices already in the PUPS archive, and how 2.9.1 BSD might be different from (or the same as) the 2.9 BSD stuff already in the archive, I'd forever appreciate it :-). The first two tapes are AT&T Unix System V tapes for VAXen: Tape 1: AT&T 60462 Unix System V Release 2.0 VAX Version 2 for 11/780 and 11/750 TPName: Root and Selectables AT&T 60462 Dwg: j1p077c-3 List:1M1 TP No: OTP-1P550-01 IS: 2.0V2 Order: VX501404 Spec:000 Item:1 BPI 1600 Max Blksize: 05120 Files:0009 Date:01/13/86 Opr: jlc Drv: tu-2 Tape 2: AT&T 60463 Unix System V Release 2.0 VAX Version 2 for 11/780 and 11/750 TPName: USR File System AT&T 60463 Dwg: j1p077c-3 List:2m2 TP No: OTP-1P550-02 IS: 2.0V2 Order: UX501404 Spec:000 Item:1 BPI 1600 Max Blksize: 05120 Files:0009 Date:01/13/86 Opr: jlc Drv: tu-0 The third tape is UNIX System III from AT&T: Tape 3: UNIX* System III PDP 11/70,45 - 800 BPI Release Tape #1 *UNIX is a trademark of Bell Laboratories Restricted Rights Use Duplication or Disclosure is Subject To Restrictions Stated in your contract with American Telephone & Telegraph The Fourth and Fifth tape are either 2.9BSD or 2.9.1BSD (I can't tell the difference until I compare these tapes with the files already in the PUPS archives): Tape 4: Berkeley UNIX (Rev. 2.9.1) 2.9BSD Sun Nov 20 14:55:50 PST 1983 800 BPI HT/TM boot tape. For tar files skip the first 7 tape files with ``mt -t /dev/nrmt0 fsf 7'' Reel 1 of 2 Tape # Tape 5: Berkeley UNIX (Rev. 2.9.1) 2.9BSD Sun Nov 20 14:55:50 PST 1983 800 BPI Tar of /usr/src Reel 2 of 2 And Tapes 6 and 7 seem to be a complete distribution set of 4.2BSD, they ought to form a good replacement for the supposedly damaged and incomplete set in /Distributions/4bsd/4.2BSD. Tape 6: 4.2bsd VAX UNIX System 8/23/83 6 files on tape: 1 (boot stuff) 2 (mini root) 3 ((root dump) 4 (/sys) 5 (/usr) 6 (/usr/lib/vfont) last three are tar; 1600 bpi Tape 7: 4.2bsd VAX UNIX System 8/23/83 tape 2: 3 files on tape 1 (/usr/src) 2 (user contributed software) 3 (/usr/ingres) all files are tar; 1600 bpi Like I said, there's about 3/4 of a ton of tapes in total, I'm sure there are some other PUPS-related goodies deeper in the pile... -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa at trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA78462 for pups-liszt; Fri, 16 Jun 2000 11:34:34 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG Fri Jun 16 11:30:44 2000 From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov) Date: Thu, 15 Jun 00 20:30:44 CDT Subject: Bunch of Unix tapes rescued Message-ID: <0006160130.AA29885@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Tim Shoppa wrote: > And Tapes 6 and 7 seem to be a complete distribution set of 4.2BSD, > they ought to form a good replacement for the supposedly damaged and > incomplete set in /Distributions/4bsd/4.2BSD. > > [contents skipped, perfectly matches CSRG 4.2BSD dist] Yes, please read them and I'll put them in the archive. I maintain the 4BSD area. -- Michael Sokolov Harhan Engineering Laboratory Public Service Agent International Free Computing Task Force International Engineering and Science Task Force 615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY STE #4 DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA Phone: +1-214-824-7693 (Harhan Eng Lab office) E-mail: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (ARPA TCP/SMTP) (UUCP coming soon) Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA78621 for pups-liszt; Fri, 16 Jun 2000 12:06:55 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From wkt at cs.adfa.edu.au Fri Jun 16 12:04:11 2000 From: wkt at cs.adfa.edu.au (Warren Toomey) Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 12:04:11 +1000 (EST) Subject: Bunch of Unix tapes rescued In-Reply-To: <000615210631.262000b2@trailing-edge.com> from Tim Shoppa at "Jun 15, 2000 9: 6:31 pm" Message-ID: <200006160204.MAA46483@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> In article by Tim Shoppa: > On an Expedition to NJ Tuesday, I rescued about 3/4 of a ton of magtapes. > Tape 1: > > AT&T 60462 > Unix System V Release 2.0 > VAX Version 2 for 11/780 and 11/750 > TPName: Root and Selectables Yes please, I have sysVR0 in the archive at the moment. > Tape 2: > AT&T 60463 > Unix System V Release 2.0 > VAX Version 2 for 11/780 and 11/750 > TPName: USR File System Yes please. Don't have it yet! > Tape 3: > UNIX* System III > PDP 11/70,45 - 800 BPI Could be the same as Distributions/usdl/SysIII, but read it anyway! > And Tapes 6 and 7 seem to be a complete distribution set of 4.2BSD, > they ought to form a good replacement for the supposedly damaged and > incomplete set in /Distributions/4bsd/4.2BSD. Again, yes please!!! Thanks Tim. Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA79038 for pups-liszt; Fri, 16 Jun 2000 13:27:36 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From SHOPPA at trailing-edge.com Fri Jun 16 13:24:51 2000 From: SHOPPA at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 23:24:51 -0400 Subject: Bunch of Unix tapes rescued Message-ID: <000615232451.262000b2@trailing-edge.com> > Again, yes please!!! Would it be useful if I also uploaded GIF's or JPG's or TIFF's of scans of the labels on the original tapes? If so, is there any preference for the format of the scan? These are all (as Tommy Smothers would say) "the original virgin" tapes. Tim. Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA81018 for pups-liszt; Fri, 16 Jun 2000 18:07:47 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From leypold at informatik.uni-tuebingen.de Fri Jun 16 18:04:53 2000 From: leypold at informatik.uni-tuebingen.de (Markus Leypold) Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 10:04:53 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Bunch of Unix tapes rescued In-Reply-To: <000615210631.262000b2@trailing-edge.com> (message from Tim Shoppa on Thu, 15 Jun 2000 21:06:31 -0400) References: <000615210631.262000b2@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <200006160804.KAA12190@informatik.uni-tuebingen.de> WOW. Great. Super !! :-) ------------------ > Delivered-To: leypold at lesbains.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de > Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 21:06:31 -0400 > From: Tim Shoppa > Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au > > On an Expedition to NJ Tuesday, I rescued about 3/4 of a ton of magtapes. > Some of these will probably be interesting for the PUPS archive. In particular, > I'm reading through seven of 'em tonight. If someone could explain to > me how "Unix System V Release 2.0" and "Unix System III" work into the > grand scheme of AT&T Unices already in the PUPS archive, and how 2.9.1 BSD > might be different from (or the same as) the 2.9 BSD stuff already in the > archive, I'd forever appreciate it :-). > > The first two tapes are AT&T Unix System V tapes for VAXen: > > Tape 1: > > AT&T 60462 > Unix System V Release 2.0 > VAX Version 2 for 11/780 and 11/750 > TPName: Root and Selectables > > AT&T 60462 > Dwg: j1p077c-3 List:1M1 > TP No: OTP-1P550-01 IS: 2.0V2 > Order: VX501404 Spec:000 Item:1 > BPI 1600 Max Blksize: 05120 Files:0009 > Date:01/13/86 Opr: jlc Drv: tu-2 > > > Tape 2: > AT&T 60463 > Unix System V Release 2.0 > VAX Version 2 for 11/780 and 11/750 > TPName: USR File System > > AT&T 60463 > Dwg: j1p077c-3 List:2m2 > TP No: OTP-1P550-02 IS: 2.0V2 > Order: UX501404 Spec:000 Item:1 > BPI 1600 Max Blksize: 05120 Files:0009 > Date:01/13/86 Opr: jlc Drv: tu-0 > > > The third tape is UNIX System III from AT&T: > > Tape 3: > UNIX* System III > PDP 11/70,45 - 800 BPI > Release Tape #1 > *UNIX is a trademark of Bell Laboratories > > Restricted Rights > Use Duplication or Disclosure is Subject > To Restrictions Stated in your contract with > American Telephone & Telegraph > > The Fourth and Fifth tape are either 2.9BSD or 2.9.1BSD (I > can't tell the difference until I compare these tapes with the > files already in the PUPS archives): > > Tape 4: > > Berkeley UNIX (Rev. 2.9.1) 2.9BSD > Sun Nov 20 14:55:50 PST 1983 > 800 BPI HT/TM boot tape. For tar files > skip the first 7 tape files with > ``mt -t /dev/nrmt0 fsf 7'' > Reel 1 of 2 Tape # > > Tape 5: > Berkeley UNIX (Rev. 2.9.1) 2.9BSD > Sun Nov 20 14:55:50 PST 1983 > 800 BPI Tar of /usr/src > Reel 2 of 2 > > And Tapes 6 and 7 seem to be a complete distribution set of 4.2BSD, > they ought to form a good replacement for the supposedly damaged and > incomplete set in /Distributions/4bsd/4.2BSD. > > Tape 6: > 4.2bsd VAX UNIX System 8/23/83 > 6 files on tape: > 1 (boot stuff) 2 (mini root) > 3 ((root dump) 4 (/sys) 5 (/usr) > 6 (/usr/lib/vfont) > last three are tar; 1600 bpi > > Tape 7: > 4.2bsd VAX UNIX System 8/23/83 > tape 2: 3 files on tape > 1 (/usr/src) > 2 (user contributed software) > 3 (/usr/ingres) > all files are tar; 1600 bpi > > Like I said, there's about 3/4 of a ton of tapes in total, I'm sure there > are some other PUPS-related goodies deeper in the pile... > > -- > Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa at trailing-edge.com > Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ > 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 > Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 > > Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA81036 for pups-liszt; Fri, 16 Jun 2000 18:10:53 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From leypold at informatik.uni-tuebingen.de Fri Jun 16 18:08:07 2000 From: leypold at informatik.uni-tuebingen.de (Markus Leypold) Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 10:08:07 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Bunch of Unix tapes rescued In-Reply-To: <000615232451.262000b2@trailing-edge.com> (message from Tim Shoppa on Thu, 15 Jun 2000 23:24:51 -0400) References: <000615232451.262000b2@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <200006160808.KAA12196@informatik.uni-tuebingen.de> > Delivered-To: leypold at lesbains.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de > Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 23:24:51 -0400 > From: Tim Shoppa > Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au > > > Again, yes please!!! > > Would it be useful if I also uploaded GIF's or JPG's or TIFF's of scans > of the labels on the original tapes? If so, is there any preference for > the format of the scan? These are all (as Tommy Smothers > would say) "the original virgin" tapes. Well, I'm presently only a client of the archive, so to say, but why not use png (the gif replacement advocated by the FSF). Better not use GIF for all this licensing issues. And as far as I see, png can be shown by -- well -- Netscape, whereas TIFF requires a plugin or an external viewer. Regards - Markus Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA81738 for pups-liszt; Fri, 16 Jun 2000 21:24:43 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From SHOPPA at trailing-edge.com Fri Jun 16 21:21:56 2000 From: SHOPPA at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 7:21:56 -0400 Subject: Yet Another "where does it fit" question Message-ID: <000616072156.262000b2@trailing-edge.com> OK, I started sorting through some more piles of tapes, and I found a one more thing that I'm-not-quite-sure-where-it-fits: Two tapes labeled "Vol 1 of 2" and "Vol 2 of 2" and then "2.10.2 SMS Unix". Steven, does this mean you know what's on this and how it's different than the 2.10 and 2.10.1 stuff already in the archive? :-) Terry didn't remember... Also, more goodies that may (or may not) be appropriate to add: * A 4.3BSD-Reno VAX tape dated "1/2/91". I suppose I have to get down on my hands and knees and see how this differs from the version dated "30 Jul 90" currently in Distributions/4bsd/4.3BSD-Reno. This has the original UCB stickers on it. * A set of tar files on a tape claiming to be the "4.4BSD snapshot 4/1/92". Is PUPS/TUHS collecting anything anything this late? Is something like this already in Kirk's archive? Tim. Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA81919 for pups-liszt; Fri, 16 Jun 2000 22:03:25 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG Fri Jun 16 21:59:26 2000 From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov) Date: Fri, 16 Jun 00 06:59:26 CDT Subject: Yet Another "where does it fit" question Message-ID: <0006161159.AA00544@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Tim Shoppa wrote: > * A 4.3BSD-Reno VAX tape dated "1/2/91". I suppose I have to get down > on my hands and knees and see how this differs from the version dated > "30 Jul 90" currently in Distributions/4bsd/4.3BSD-Reno. This has > the original UCB stickers on it. Yes. > * A set of tar files on a tape claiming to be the "4.4BSD snapshot > 4/1/92". Is PUPS/TUHS collecting anything anything this late? Is > something like this already in Kirk's archive? Kirk, you'll have to fill me in on this one. Is this the "4.4BSD-Alpha" I've seen mentioned in some places? In any case this is not on Kirk's CD-ROMs and I'll include it in my 4BSD collection. -- Michael Sokolov Harhan Engineering Laboratory Public Service Agent International Free Computing Task Force International Engineering and Science Task Force 615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY STE #4 DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA Phone: +1-214-824-7693 (Harhan Eng Lab office) E-mail: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (ARPA TCP/SMTP) (UUCP coming soon) Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA82759 for pups-liszt; Sat, 17 Jun 2000 00:09:54 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From SHOPPA at trailing-edge.com Sat Jun 17 00:07:07 2000 From: SHOPPA at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 10:07:07 -0400 Subject: 4.4BSD-Alpha Message-ID: <000616100707.2620009e@trailing-edge.com> >> * A set of tar files on a tape claiming to be the "4.4BSD snapshot >> 4/1/92". Is PUPS/TUHS collecting anything anything this late? Is >> something like this already in Kirk's archive? >Kirk, you'll have to fill me in on this one. Is this the "4.4BSD-Alpha" I've >seen mentioned in some places? In any case this is not on Kirk's CD-ROMs and >I'll include it in my 4BSD collection. I found a separate tape, labeled "August 23, 1992", with a matching cover letter (signed by Kirk McKusick) saying "This is a distribution tape for the 4.4BSD-Alpha release ... The binaries and kernel on the tape support the HP 9000/300 68000-based workstations...". Is this the holy grail? I would guess the "4.4BSD snapshot 4/1/92" is pre-release. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa at trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA84172 for pups-liszt; Sat, 17 Jun 2000 00:40:20 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG Sat Jun 17 00:35:55 2000 From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov) Date: Fri, 16 Jun 00 09:35:55 CDT Subject: 4.2BSD dist in the TUHS/PUPS archive: resolution Message-ID: <0006161435.AA00708@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Quasijarus Consortium members and TUHS/PUPS archive users, Since early fall 1998 the archive has had an incomplete distribution of 4.2BSD reconstructed from some bogus tape images from Per Andersson. This morning Tim Shoppa read an authentic 4.2BSD tape dist. I compared it with the incomplete dist in the archive and found that it is the same dist, Tim Shoppa's version is complete and correct, and Per Andersson's version was incomplete. The files that were in the archive were correct. I added the missing files this morning, making the 4.2BSD dist in the archive complete. It is in Distributions/4bsd/4.2BSD, it is a superset of what was there before (because what was there before was just missing some files), and it identically matches Tim Shoppa's copy in his home directory. I left Per Andersson's original (bogus) files in the Per_Andersson subdirectory. Warren, it's up to you if you want to keep or delete them. -- Michael Sokolov Harhan Engineering Laboratory Public Service Agent International Free Computing Task Force International Engineering and Science Task Force 615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY STE #4 DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA Phone: +1-214-824-7693 (Harhan Eng Lab office) E-mail: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (ARPA TCP/SMTP) (UUCP coming soon) Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA84202 for pups-liszt; Sat, 17 Jun 2000 00:48:04 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG Sat Jun 17 00:44:07 2000 From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov) Date: Fri, 16 Jun 00 09:44:07 CDT Subject: 4.4BSD-Alpha Message-ID: <0006161444.AA00776@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Tim Shoppa wrote: > I found a separate tape, labeled "August 23, 1992", with a matching cover > letter (signed by Kirk McKusick) saying "This is a distribution tape > for the 4.4BSD-Alpha release ... The binaries and kernel on the > tape support the HP 9000/300 68000-based workstations...". Is this > the holy grail? OK, I dunno whether it qualifies as "the holy grail" or not, but yes, it is the 4.4BSD-Alpha dist. > I would guess the "4.4BSD snapshot 4/1/92" is pre-release. OK, just upload both if you can, I'll be happy to put them in the archive and I'm sure Warren will be too. -- Michael Sokolov Harhan Engineering Laboratory Public Service Agent International Free Computing Task Force International Engineering and Science Task Force 615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY STE #4 DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA Phone: +1-214-824-7693 (Harhan Eng Lab office) E-mail: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (ARPA TCP/SMTP) (UUCP coming soon) Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA84892 for pups-liszt; Sat, 17 Jun 2000 02:42:25 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From jasomill at shaffstall.com Sat Jun 17 02:31:18 2000 From: jasomill at shaffstall.com (Jason T. Miller) Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 11:31:18 -0500 (EST) Subject: RX50 vocoder timing; FreeBSD kernel woes Message-ID: Sorry in advance if you unintentionally deleted this message because of the topic, I'm an incorrigable smart-arse and couldn't resist. My other idea was ILOVEYOU, but that's been done before... > This thread has gotten *way* beyond what I (and I'll bet many others) > read this list for. The initiator of this post was yours truly. I have been silet since this post. I hate politics. I figured, "just let it simmer down and then rationally respond." I hate flamefesten. Sorry. Can't please everybody all the time. Hey, I don't even try, most of the time. I find that sitting on the fence can be quite an uncomfortable position to be in, especially if you're on one of the fenceposts. But, wie immer, I digress. I didn't mean to crowd your (that is, the royal "your") mailbox with my hardware woes. I had some issues, directly related to my _usage_ of PDP-11 UNIX, and, insofar as both the mentioned PDP-11 mailing list and the DECUS PDP-11 list on eisner.decus.org are both ghost towns, and several members of this mailing list seem to know quite a bit about both the hardware platform and the software I choose to run (2.11BSD), I dreamt of things that never were and said "why not." Thanks to the knowledge of fellow list-members, my questions were answered, my problem was solved, and the result is now available in the PUPS archive under Tools/Disks/rx50-FreeBSD.tar.gz (no comments on code quality to the group, please; that would be off-topic [read: embarassing] :) Qs and Cs to jasomill at indiana.edu welcome), which is useful to me and may possibly be of some interest to other PDP-11 UNIX hobbyists trying to solve the same problem. I read the entire PUPS mailing list archive before making my first post. I've noticed that the top three platform-specific topics seem to be (in order of appearance): 1) emulator software 2) VAX hardware 3) PDP hardware I don't use an emulator and I don't have a VAX (though I want one very very much, but admittably to run VMS mostly), but the discussions don't bother me. As a matter of fact, some of them interest me; those that don't, I skip. Anyway, just an observation. I know it's not the PHPS, but I can not be dissuaded in my belief that actually _using_ the systems is a vital part of a living preservation effort, and using them without functional hardware is a bit difficult, emulators notwithstanding. But please don't deactivate me :), I'll read a UHS list and a PUPS list and a VAX list and an RT-PC list (I've been wanting to get my hands on one of those buggers for awhile, actually), desirous of everything at the same time, and try my best not to yawn and say commonplace things (apologizes to Jack Kerouac). Thanks again for help and interesting discussion, to all parties involved, mad to talk or less so. What about archiving PDP hardware information? I don't mean discussing obscure timing details of RK05 controllers or anything, but having a section of the archive for random hardware tidbits re: PDP. It's not _directly_ related to UNIX preservation, but it'd be a boon to PDP UNIX users (not to mention keeping list traffic down in re: these things), and its space requirements are miniscule. Maybe wait until the PDP-specific stuff is split off, and create a directory. I'd be happy to maintain it (I'm also attempting to contact DEC ne Compaq about getting some legacy docs released; those, of course, would be included; no, that's not what Mentec bought, I don't think, that's RSX and RSTS/E and RT-11, maybe even Ultrix. They provide engineering support to DEC PDP-11 customers as well as compatible hardware, but I believe Compaq still owns the copyrights to the Digital hardware documentation. Not 100% sure though). Once again, sorry, once again, thanks, and in closing, AWWWW, jasomill Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id FAA87825 for pups-liszt; Sat, 17 Jun 2000 05:14:27 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From obrien at NUXI.com Sat Jun 17 05:11:28 2000 From: obrien at NUXI.com (David O'Brien) Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 12:11:28 -0700 Subject: 4.4BSD-Alpha In-Reply-To: <0006161444.AA00776@ivan.Harhan.ORG>; from msokolov@ivan.Harhan.ORG on Fri, Jun 16, 2000 at 09:44:07AM -0500 References: <0006161444.AA00776@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Message-ID: <20000616121128.A35577@dragon.nuxi.com> It may have already been discussed before, but here is the list of distirbutions on McKusick's "The CSRG Archives" 4-CD set: 1BSD, 2BSD, 3BSD, 2.9pucc, 2.10, 2.79, 2.8, 2.9, 4.0, 4.1, 4.1a, 4.1c.1, 4.1c.2, 4.1.snap, 4.2, 4.3, VM.snapshot.1, VM.snapshot.2, 4.3Tahoe, 4.3Reno, Net/1, Net/2, 4.4, 4.4-Lite1, 4.4-Lite2, and /usr/src SCCS files. -- -- David (obrien at NUXI.com) Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id FAA87954 for pups-liszt; Sat, 17 Jun 2000 05:31:49 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG Sat Jun 17 05:27:54 2000 From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov) Date: Fri, 16 Jun 00 14:27:54 CDT Subject: 4.4BSD-Alpha Message-ID: <0006161927.AA01375@ivan.Harhan.ORG> David O'Brien wrote: > It may have already been discussed before, but here is the list of > distirbutions on McKusick's "The CSRG Archives" 4-CD set: > > 1BSD, 2BSD, 3BSD, 2.9pucc, 2.10, 2.79, 2.8, 2.9, 4.0, 4.1, 4.1a, 4.1c.1, > 4.1c.2, 4.1.snap, 4.2, 4.3, VM.snapshot.1, VM.snapshot.2, 4.3Tahoe, > 4.3Reno, Net/1, Net/2, 4.4, 4.4-Lite1, 4.4-Lite2, and /usr/src SCCS > files. I know this of course, I have one. -- Michael Sokolov Harhan Engineering Laboratory Public Service Agent International Free Computing Task Force International Engineering and Science Task Force 615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY STE #4 DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA Phone: +1-214-824-7693 (Harhan Eng Lab office) E-mail: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (ARPA TCP/SMTP) (UUCP coming soon) From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG Sat Jun 17 06:12:55 2000 From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov) Date: Fri, 16 Jun 00 15:12:55 CDT Subject: 4.4BSD-Alpha in the TUHS/PUPS archive 4BSD area Message-ID: <0006162012.AA01527@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Quasijarus Consortium members and TUHS/PUPS archive users, Today Tim Shoppa has read the HP300 4.4BSD-Alpha distribution on a 9-track 6250 BPI tape and I have just put it in the archive. It is in Distributions/4bsd/4.4BSD-Alpha Of course we generally don't do 4.4BSD, but we do include it in the archival and preservation section of our project. -- Michael Sokolov Harhan Engineering Laboratory Public Service Agent International Free Computing Task Force International Engineering and Science Task Force 615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY STE #4 DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA Phone: +1-214-824-7693 (Harhan Eng Lab office) E-mail: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (ARPA TCP/SMTP) (UUCP coming soon) Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA88281 for pups-liszt; Sat, 17 Jun 2000 06:18:49 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From SHOPPA at trailing-edge.com Sat Jun 17 06:16:00 2000 From: SHOPPA at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 16:16:00 -0400 Subject: The Unix History Graphing Project... Message-ID: <000616161600.262000b2@trailing-edge.com> >It may have already been discussed before, but here is the list of >distirbutions on McKusick's "The CSRG Archives" 4-CD set: > >1BSD, 2BSD, 3BSD, 2.9pucc, 2.10, 2.79, 2.8, 2.9, 4.0, 4.1, 4.1a, 4.1c.1, >4.1c.2, 4.1.snap, 4.2, 4.3, VM.snapshot.1, VM.snapshot.2, 4.3Tahoe, >4.3Reno, Net/1, Net/2, 4.4, 4.4-Lite1, 4.4-Lite2, and /usr/src SCCS >files. That suggestion got me looking at "The Unix History Graphing Project" at http://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/Unix_History/index.html Is there a readable (meaning "not source code") history of *.*BSD on the McCusick CD set? Most of the comment-type entries in the Unix History Graphing Project for the BSD releases are pretty good, but not real complete. Do any of the Ultrix versions show up somewhere in the The Unix History Graphing project? I know that they're offshoots from 2BSD and 4BSD, but I wouldn't mind seeing someone annotate when they shot off and what was changed/added/deleted. (Did I just volunteer?!?) Another history question: Anyone know if there's any 2.9BSD-Seismo distributions kicking around? Tim. Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA88374 for pups-liszt; Sat, 17 Jun 2000 06:45:23 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG Sat Jun 17 06:41:27 2000 From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov) Date: Fri, 16 Jun 00 15:41:27 CDT Subject: The Unix History Graphing Project... Message-ID: <0006162041.AA01624@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Tim Shoppa wrote: > Is there a readable (meaning "not source code") history of *.*BSD > on the McCusick CD set? Most of the comment-type entries in the > Unix History Graphing Project for the BSD releases are pretty good, > but not real complete. The line of True UNIX development is straight: V6 -> V7 -> 3BSD -> 4.0BSD -> 4.1BSD -> 4.2BSD -> 4.3BSD -> 4.3BSD-Tahoe -> 4.3BSD-Quasijarus There is also a branch which I call Bostic BSD, resulting from Keith Bostic taking over CSRG and killing it, that goes: 4.BSD-Tahoe -> Net/1 -> 4.3BSD-Reno -> Net/2 -> 4.4BSD-Alpha -> 4.4BSD 1BSD and 2BSD were collections of userland bits without a kernel or a compiler toolchain or anything else that defines a system and its hardware platform, so it's generally incorrect to consider them as versions of UNIX, much less as versions of PDP-11 UNIX. They were bits to be added to an existing UNIX system, which could conceptualy be anything, although V6 and V7 for the PDP-11 were the intended targets. Berkeley UNIX never ran on PDP-11s, only on VAXen, that is, there has never been a Berkeley UNIX kernel or compiler toolchain for the PDP-11, only for the VAX. As for 2.xBSD, that's an ex-post-facto backport of BSD UNIX to PDP-11s, ex-post-facto in the sense that it was made after the torch of UNIX passed from PDP-11 to VAX, and is a human-alien hybrid of PDP-11 V7 on steroids with dumbed down VAX 4.xBSD. It comes nowhere near to mainline UNIX or mainline BSD. -- Michael Sokolov Harhan Engineering Laboratory Public Service Agent International Free Computing Task Force International Engineering and Science Task Force 615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY STE #4 DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA Phone: +1-214-824-7693 (Harhan Eng Lab office) E-mail: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (ARPA TCP/SMTP) (UUCP coming soon) Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id HAA88616 for pups-liszt; Sat, 17 Jun 2000 07:47:06 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From tls at rek.tjls.com Sat Jun 17 07:44:08 2000 From: tls at rek.tjls.com (Thor Lancelot Simon) Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 17:44:08 -0400 Subject: The Unix History Graphing Project... In-Reply-To: <0006162041.AA01624@ivan.Harhan.ORG>; from msokolov@ivan.Harhan.ORG on Fri, Jun 16, 2000 at 03:41:27PM -0500 References: <0006162041.AA01624@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Message-ID: <20000616174408.A20743@rek.tjls.com> On Fri, Jun 16, 2000 at 03:41:27PM -0500, Michael Sokolov wrote: > Tim Shoppa wrote: > > > Is there a readable (meaning "not source code") history of *.*BSD > > on the McCusick CD set? Most of the comment-type entries in the > > Unix History Graphing Project for the BSD releases are pretty good, > > but not real complete. > > The line of True UNIX development is straight: > > V6 -> V7 -> 3BSD -> 4.0BSD -> 4.1BSD -> 4.2BSD -> 4.3BSD -> 4.3BSD-Tahoe -> > 4.3BSD-Quasijarus > > There is also a branch which I call Bostic BSD, resulting from Keith Bostic > taking over CSRG and killing it, that goes: [... and more spewage ...] I would like to ask that Mr. Solokov's association with the PUPS and TUHS projects be ended if he can not restrain himself from posting inflammatory material of this nature on the lists. Thor Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA88970 for pups-liszt; Sat, 17 Jun 2000 09:05:53 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From pups at mrynet.com Sat Jun 17 09:02:56 2000 From: pups at mrynet.com (PUPS mailing list) Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 16:02:56 -0700 Subject: The Unix History Graphing Project... Message-ID: <200006162302.QAA73794@mrynet.com> > On Fri, Jun 16, 2000 at 03:41:27PM -0500, Michael Sokolov wrote: > > Tim Shoppa wrote: > > > > > Is there a readable (meaning "not source code") history of *.*BSD > > > on the McCusick CD set? Most of the comment-type entries in the > > > Unix History Graphing Project for the BSD releases are pretty good, > > > but not real complete. > > > > The line of True UNIX development is straight: > > > > V6 -> V7 -> 3BSD -> 4.0BSD -> 4.1BSD -> 4.2BSD -> 4.3BSD -> 4.3BSD-Tahoe -> > > 4.3BSD-Quasijarus > > > > There is also a branch which I call Bostic BSD, resulting from Keith Bostic > > taking over CSRG and killing it, that goes: > > [... and more spewage ...] > > I would like to ask that Mr. Solokov's association with the PUPS and TUHS > projects be ended if he can not restrain himself from posting inflammatory > material of this nature on the lists. > > Thor I second some form of censure here. I already filter this person's email when I can, via my mail handler and client, but I am still subjected to his non-constructive constant arrogance when included in other's replies. Obviously I find his tact, social skills, and ethics reprehensible or I wouldn't have bothered taking the measures I have. Simply put, people are welcome to their opinions, but his are bordering anti-social and are downright rude and insulting. Everyone is welcome to opinions and points-of-view, but having such shoved in faces at every opportunity is intolerable. Regards, Scott G. Taylor Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA89002 for pups-liszt; Sat, 17 Jun 2000 09:13:49 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From obrien at NUXI.com Sat Jun 17 09:10:53 2000 From: obrien at NUXI.com (David O'Brien) Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 16:10:53 -0700 Subject: The Unix History Graphing Project... In-Reply-To: <20000616174408.A20743@rek.tjls.com>; from tls@rek.tjls.com on Fri, Jun 16, 2000 at 05:44:08PM -0400 References: <0006162041.AA01624@ivan.Harhan.ORG> <20000616174408.A20743@rek.tjls.com> Message-ID: <20000616161053.F35577@dragon.nuxi.com> On Fri, Jun 16, 2000 at 05:44:08PM -0400, Thor Lancelot Simon wrote: > > > Most of the comment-type entries in the Unix History Graphing > > > Project for the BSD releases are pretty good, but not real > > > complete. > > > > The line of True UNIX development is straight: > > > > V6 -> V7 -> 3BSD -> 4.0BSD -> 4.1BSD -> 4.2BSD -> 4.3BSD -> 4.3BSD-Tahoe -> > > 4.3BSD-Quasijarus > > > > There is also a branch which I call Bostic BSD, resulting from Keith Bostic > > taking over CSRG and killing it, that goes: > > [... and more spewage ...] > > I would like to ask that Mr. Solokov's association with the PUPS and TUHS > projects be ended if he can not restrain himself from posting inflammatory > material of this nature on the lists. I have to agree. From his emails, Mr. Solokov is a rather rabid individual. Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA89013 for pups-liszt; Sat, 17 Jun 2000 09:14:36 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From obrien at NUXI.com Sat Jun 17 09:11:45 2000 From: obrien at NUXI.com (David O'Brien) Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 16:11:45 -0700 Subject: 4.4BSD-Alpha In-Reply-To: <0006161927.AA01375@ivan.Harhan.ORG>; from msokolov@ivan.Harhan.ORG on Fri, Jun 16, 2000 at 02:27:54PM -0500 References: <0006161927.AA01375@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Message-ID: <20000616161145.G35577@dragon.nuxi.com> On Fri, Jun 16, 2000 at 02:27:54PM -0500, Michael Sokolov wrote: > I know this of course, I have one. Of course you do, but others may not. So why are you wasting my disk space with this email? Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA89383 for pups-liszt; Sat, 17 Jun 2000 10:24:15 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From apgarcia at hackaholic.org Sat Jun 17 10:16:48 2000 From: apgarcia at hackaholic.org (A. P. Garcia) Date: 17 Jun 2000 00:16:48 +0000 Subject: The Unix History Graphing Project... In-Reply-To: "David O'Brien"'s message of "Fri, 16 Jun 2000 16:10:53 -0700" References: <0006162041.AA01624@ivan.Harhan.ORG> <20000616174408.A20743@rek.tjls.com> <20000616161053.F35577@dragon.nuxi.com> Message-ID: "David O'Brien" writes: > > I would like to ask that Mr. Solokov's association with the PUPS and TUHS > > projects be ended if he can not restrain himself from posting inflammatory > > material of this nature on the lists. > > I have to agree. From his emails, Mr. Solokov is a rather rabid individual. No, I agree with whomever it was - I think Patrick Henry - that said something like "I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." You can always send his mail to /dev/null if you don't like it. Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA89414 for pups-liszt; Sat, 17 Jun 2000 10:31:43 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From wkt at cs.adfa.edu.au Sat Jun 17 10:28:59 2000 From: wkt at cs.adfa.edu.au (Warren Toomey) Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 10:28:59 +1000 (EST) Subject: PUPS/TUHS should not be divisive In-Reply-To: <20000616174408.A20743@rek.tjls.com> from Thor Lancelot Simon at "Jun 16, 2000 5:44: 8 pm" Message-ID: <200006170028.KAA55686@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> In article by Thor Lancelot Simon: > On Fri, Jun 16, 2000 at 03:41:27PM -0500, Michael Sokolov wrote: > > The line of True UNIX development is straight: > > V6 -> V7 -> 3BSD -> 4.0BSD -> 4.1BSD -> 4.2BSD -> 4.3BSD -> 4.3BSD-Tahoe -> > > 4.3BSD-Quasijarus > I would like to ask that Mr. Solokov's association with the PUPS and TUHS > projects be ended if he can not restrain himself from posting inflammatory > material of this nature on the lists. > Thor While I do not agree with Michael's particular beliefs about True UNIX, as I wear the hat of UNIX Heritage Society, I want to encourage his efforts on 4.3BSD-Quasijarus, as I do with 2.11BSD, NetBSD etc etc. Michael, in order to ease the tension in the mailing lists, would it be possible for you to write a web (or ftp) page describing your beliefs, so that interested people can go read it. For example, in future mailings you could say: As you know, I believe True UNIX flows from V6 to 4.3BSD but not to 4.4BSD, see http://xxx.xxx.xxx for details. I'm not asking you to moderate your beliefs or stop espousing them, but I would rather keep the mailing list inclusive rather than divisive. For the other readers of this list, it is not possible to stop subscribers from saying whatever they want. Therefore, if you feel offended, please try to take any strong exchange of views out of the list. For example, you might post something like: In article by Joe Bloe: > I think turtles are ugly. I disagree violently with this person's views, and I'll take this discussion off-line, so as to keep in charter with the mailing list. I will also change the mailing lists's on-line charter to be inclusive and not divisive. Finally, we now have pups@ (PDP-11 stuff) and tuhs@ (generic Unix stuff, which includes discussion on the Archive). The original posting, and all the followups, should have gone to tuhs@, so please send your mails to the right list!!! Thank you, Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA89425 for pups-liszt; Sat, 17 Jun 2000 10:32:05 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From SHOPPA at trailing-edge.com Sat Jun 17 10:29:13 2000 From: SHOPPA at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 20:29:13 -0400 Subject: Yet Another "where does it fit" question Message-ID: <000616202913.262000b0@trailing-edge.com> Yesterday I asked: >Two tapes labeled "Vol 1 of 2" and "Vol 2 of 2" and then "2.10.2 SMS >Unix". Steven, does this mean you know what's on this and how it's >different than the 2.10 and 2.10.1 stuff already in the archive? :-) Terry >didn't remember... Now that I've read the tapes, this is a 1990-ish step halfway between 2.10.1 and 2.11, as developed by Steven Schultz (and debugged by Terry on his 11/70, judging from the comments.) Is this something worthwhile to put in the archive? At the moment, looking at the timeline of PDP-11 Unices currently in the archive, we have at the "fairly recent" end: 2.9 from 1983 2.9.1BSD from 1983 2.10BSD from 1987 2.10.1BSD from 1989 2.11BSD from the past year Would it be a worthwhile thing to put 2.10.2 up as an intermediate step filling in the ten year gap between 2.10.1 and the current 2.11? I'm worried that whenever I find a metric buttload of Unix tapes that my proposals of adding everything in them to the archive may just be adding too much volume that folks simply aren't interested in. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa at trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA89441 for pups-liszt; Sat, 17 Jun 2000 10:33:58 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From wkt at cs.adfa.edu.au Sat Jun 17 10:07:24 2000 From: wkt at cs.adfa.edu.au (Warren Toomey) Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 10:07:24 +1000 (EST) Subject: Digest? In-Reply-To: <394A3D26.86E79289@home.com> from Robert Porter at "Jun 16, 2000 7:43:50 am" Message-ID: <200006170007.KAA55558@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> In article by Robert Porter: > Is there a way to unsubscribe from the PUPS/TUHS lists and subscribe to some > sort of digest? I just can't handle this amount of traffic (much more email > than I get otherwise). Send mail to majordomo at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au with the lines: unsubscribe tuhs unsubscribe pups subscribe pups-digest subscribe tuhs-digest Cheers! Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA89882 for pups-liszt; Sat, 17 Jun 2000 12:12:25 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From sms at moe.2bsd.com Sat Jun 17 12:09:00 2000 From: sms at moe.2bsd.com (Steven M. Schultz) Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 19:09:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Yet Another "where does it fit" question Message-ID: <200006170209.TAA24691@moe.2bsd.com> Hi -- I hope I'm in the right mailing list :) > From: Tim Shoppa > Yesterday I asked: > > >Two tapes labeled "Vol 1 of 2" and "Vol 2 of 2" and then "2.10.2 SMS > >Unix". Steven, does this mean you know what's on this and how it's > >different than the 2.10 and 2.10.1 stuff already in the archive? :-) Terry > >didn't remember... > > Now that I've read the tapes, this is a 1990-ish step halfway between > 2.10.1 and 2.11, as developed by Steven Schultz (and debugged by > Terry on his 11/70, judging from the comments.) Is this something You beat me to it - I was going to respond earlier but got distracted ("real work" the boss wanted ;)). It's more than half way to 2.11 though. Probably closer to 80 or 90%. The work had been going on for a year or more since 2.10.1 came out and I was all set to distribute it on my own when one of the last folks at the CSRG said it should be 2.11 (based on the size and number of changes) and a BSD release with USENIX handling the license issues and distribution. There aren't many major differences between 2.10.2SMS and what would be 2.11BSD a few months later (towards the end of 1990 or beginning of 1991). > timeline of PDP-11 Unices currently in the archive, we have at the > "fairly recent" end: > > 2.9 from 1983 > 2.9.1BSD from 1983 > 2.10BSD from 1987 > 2.10.1BSD from 1989 2.10.2.SMS goes till about the end of 1990 or beginning of 1991 > Would it be a worthwhile thing to put 2.10.2 up as an intermediate > step filling in the ten year gap between 2.10.1 and the current 2.11? I think it would be - I didn't save a copy for myself ;) A "diff -r" of that against the first 2.11 tape (which I think I might have somewhere) would be interesting to do some time. Steven Schultz sms at moe.2bsd.com Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA90344 for pups-liszt; Sat, 17 Jun 2000 13:22:56 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From tls at rek.tjls.com Sat Jun 17 13:20:04 2000 From: tls at rek.tjls.com (Thor Lancelot Simon) Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 23:20:04 -0400 Subject: PUPS/TUHS should not be divisive In-Reply-To: <200006170028.KAA55686@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>; from wkt@cs.adfa.edu.au on Sat, Jun 17, 2000 at 10:28:59AM +1000 References: <20000616174408.A20743@rek.tjls.com> <200006170028.KAA55686@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Message-ID: <20000616232004.A4545@rek.tjls.com> On Sat, Jun 17, 2000 at 10:28:59AM +1000, Warren Toomey wrote: > In article by Thor Lancelot Simon: > > On Fri, Jun 16, 2000 at 03:41:27PM -0500, Michael Sokolov wrote: > > > The line of True UNIX development is straight: > > > V6 -> V7 -> 3BSD -> 4.0BSD -> 4.1BSD -> 4.2BSD -> 4.3BSD -> 4.3BSD-Tahoe -> > > > 4.3BSD-Quasijarus > > I would like to ask that Mr. Solokov's association with the PUPS and TUHS > > projects be ended if he can not restrain himself from posting inflammatory > > material of this nature on the lists. > > Thor > > While I do not agree with Michael's particular beliefs about True UNIX, as > I wear the hat of UNIX Heritage Society, I want to encourage his efforts on > 4.3BSD-Quasijarus, as I do with 2.11BSD, NetBSD etc etc. While I largely agree with your sentiments, I note that in responding to my text above you have clipped out Michael's direct personal attack on Keith Bostic. I find this, um, fascinating. I'll also note that denying Mr. Solokov *this particular forum* for the spewage of his venom is hardly the kind of governmental interference with speech that another poster's quotation decried. I don't see why PUPS/TUHS should provide a general soapbox for shouting insults at the people who did a lot of the work PUPS/TUHS collect, catalog, and preserve. Thor Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA90790 for pups-liszt; Sat, 17 Jun 2000 14:57:58 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From obrien at NUXI.com Sat Jun 17 14:55:04 2000 From: obrien at NUXI.com (David O'Brien) Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 21:55:04 -0700 Subject: PUPS/TUHS should not be divisive In-Reply-To: <20000616232004.A4545@rek.tjls.com>; from tls@rek.tjls.com on Fri, Jun 16, 2000 at 11:20:04PM -0400 References: <20000616174408.A20743@rek.tjls.com> <200006170028.KAA55686@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> <20000616232004.A4545@rek.tjls.com> Message-ID: <20000616215504.I35577@dragon.nuxi.com> On Fri, Jun 16, 2000 at 11:20:04PM -0400, Thor Lancelot Simon wrote: > I don't see why PUPS/TUHS should provide a general soapbox for shouting > insults at the people who did a lot of the work PUPS/TUHS collect, > catalog, and preserve. Not to mention we owe the entire Open Source BSD availability to Keith. Those that have not heard Kirk McKusick's "History of UNIX at Berkeley" talk should go read his "Twenty Years of Berkeley Unix From AT&T-Owned to Freely Redistributable" chapter in "Open Sources: Voices from the Open Source Revolution". This is on-line at http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/opensources/book/kirkmck.html. To quote: During one of our weekly group meetings at the CSRG, Keith Bostic brought up the subject of the popularity of the freely-redistributable networking release and inquired about the possibility of doing an expanded release that included more of the BSD code. Mike Karels and I pointed out to Bostic that releasing large parts of the system was a huge task, but we agreed that if he could sort out how to deal with reimplementing the hundreds of utilities and the massive C library then we would tackle the kernel. Privately, Karels and I felt that would be the end of the discussion. Undeterred, Bostic pioneered the technique of doing a mass net-based development effort. He solicited folks to rewrite the Unix utilities from scratch based solely on their published descriptions. Their only compensation would be to have their name listed among the Berkeley contributors next to the name of the utility that they rewrote. The contributions started slowly and were mostly for the trivial utilities. But as the list of completed utilities grew and Bostic continued to hold forth for contributions at public events such as Usenix, the rate of contributions continued to grow. Soon the list crossed one hundred utilities and within 18 months nearly all the important utilities and libraries had been rewritten. Proudly, Bostic marched into Mike Karels' and my office, list in hand, wanting to know how we were doing on the kernel. Resigned to our task, Karels, Bostic, and I spent the next several months going over the entire distribution, file by file, removing code that had originated in the 32/V release. With what we owe him, I do not think any continual bad mouthing of Keith should be tolerated. -- -- David (obrien at NUXI.com) Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA91896 for pups-liszt; Sat, 17 Jun 2000 20:42:16 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From robin at ruffnready.co.uk Sat Jun 17 20:38:09 2000 From: robin at ruffnready.co.uk (Robin Birch) Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 11:38:09 +0100 Subject: PUPS/TUHS should not be divisive In-Reply-To: <20000616215504.I35577@dragon.nuxi.com> References: <20000616174408.A20743@rek.tjls.com> <200006170028.KAA55686@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> <20000616232004.A4545@rek.tjls.com> <20000616215504.I35577@dragon.nuxi.com> Message-ID: In message <20000616215504.I35577 at dragon.nuxi.com>, David O'Brien writes >On Fri, Jun 16, 2000 at 11:20:04PM -0400, Thor Lancelot Simon wrote: >> I don't see why PUPS/TUHS should provide a general soapbox for shouting >> insults at the people who did a lot of the work PUPS/TUHS collect, >> catalog, and preserve. > >Not to mention we owe the entire Open Source BSD availability to Keith. > >Those that have not heard Kirk McKusick's "History of UNIX at Berkeley" >talk should go read his "Twenty Years of Berkeley Unix From AT&T-Owned to >Freely Redistributable" chapter in "Open Sources: Voices from the Open >Source Revolution". This is on-line at >http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/opensources/book/kirkmck.html. To quote: > > During one of our weekly group meetings at the CSRG, Keith Bostic > brought up the subject of the popularity of the > freely-redistributable networking release and inquired about the > possibility of doing an expanded release that included more of the > BSD code. Mike Karels and I pointed out to Bostic that releasing > large parts of the system was a huge task, but we agreed that if he > could sort out how to deal with reimplementing the hundreds of > utilities and the massive C library then we would tackle the kernel. > Privately, Karels and I felt that would be the end of the discussion. > > Undeterred, Bostic pioneered the technique of doing a mass net-based > development effort. He solicited folks to rewrite the Unix utilities > from scratch based solely on their published descriptions. Their > only compensation would be to have their name listed among the > Berkeley contributors next to the name of the utility that they > rewrote. The contributions started slowly and were mostly for the > trivial utilities. But as the list of completed utilities grew and > Bostic continued to hold forth for contributions at public events > such as Usenix, the rate of contributions continued to grow. Soon > the list crossed one hundred utilities and within 18 months nearly > all the important utilities and libraries had been rewritten. > > Proudly, Bostic marched into Mike Karels' and my office, list in > hand, wanting to know how we were doing on the kernel. Resigned to > our task, Karels, Bostic, and I spent the next several months going > over the entire distribution, file by file, removing code that had > originated in the 32/V release. > >With what we owe him, I do not think any continual bad mouthing of Keith >should be tolerated. > Seconded!!! ____________________________________________________________________ Robin Birch robin at ruffnready.co.uk M1ASU/2E0ARJ/M5ABD Old computers and radios always welcome Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA91880 for pups-liszt; Sat, 17 Jun 2000 20:40:26 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From robin at ruffnready.co.uk Sat Jun 17 20:36:15 2000 From: robin at ruffnready.co.uk (Robin Birch) Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 11:36:15 +0100 Subject: Yet Another "where does it fit" question In-Reply-To: <200006170209.TAA24691@moe.2bsd.com> References: <200006170209.TAA24691@moe.2bsd.com> Message-ID: In message <200006170209.TAA24691 at moe.2bsd.com>, Steven M. Schultz writes >Hi -- > > I hope I'm in the right mailing list :) > >> From: Tim Shoppa >> Yesterday I asked: >> >> >Two tapes labeled "Vol 1 of 2" and "Vol 2 of 2" and then "2.10.2 SMS >> >Unix". Steven, does this mean you know what's on this and how it's >> >different than the 2.10 and 2.10.1 stuff already in the archive? :-) Terry >> >didn't remember... >> >> Now that I've read the tapes, this is a 1990-ish step halfway between >> 2.10.1 and 2.11, as developed by Steven Schultz (and debugged by >> Terry on his 11/70, judging from the comments.) Is this something > I think it would be - I didn't save a copy for myself ;) > For what it's worth I think this brings in an interesting branch to the archive. Should there be a space for stuff we should hold for purely historical reference purposes and a different one for stuff that would normally be interesting to the average user group punter?. This might have some effects on the archive structure. Robin ____________________________________________________________________ Robin Birch robin at ruffnready.co.uk M1ASU/2E0ARJ/M5ABD Old computers and radios always welcome Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA92845 for pups-liszt; Sun, 18 Jun 2000 01:08:39 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG Sun Jun 18 01:04:30 2000 From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov) Date: Sat, 17 Jun 00 10:04:30 CDT Subject: PUPS/TUHS should not be divisive Message-ID: <0006171504.AA02620@ivan.Harhan.ORG> David O'Brien wrote: > Not to mention we owe the entire Open Source BSD availability to Keith. > > [snipped description of how Bostic, like a murderous American surgeon, cut > out with his butcher knife all the Holy Original True Pure UNIX(R) code, the > code that made BSD Berkeley UNIX(R) and not just some little mortal *BSD, > and replaced it with cheap plastic prostetics] It is *this* that I consider Bostic the killer of CSRG, of True BSD, and of True UNIX for. I don't fscking care whether you call it free or not. The True UNIX code is free to those who have access to it, in the sense that they can make arbitrary modifications to it and freely redistribute it within the circle of accessees. Pure UNIX is completely open source: it is not usable at all without the source, so everyone who has it has the source. Either you have the source or you don't run UNIX. No binary-only distributions. Previously the circle of UNIX accessees was limited to universities, but then they were the only ones who could afford the hardware needed to run UNIX and the electric bills that come with it, so this really wasn't an issue. Someone who wasn't part of a university with a UNIX source license was almost certainly in no position to run UNIX or have an interest in it anyway. Now the situation has changed, and many people run PDP-11s and VAXen on a hobbyist basis in their homes, but the licensing situation has changed accordingly too: now it's a free clickwrap license. If it isn't Ritchie and Thompson's original UNIX code, then it isn't UNIX. And I want UNIX, in four capitals with an R-in-circle superscript. I don't care about clones and workalikes and copycats. However "modern" they are, they are still mere clones and copycats. And I want the genuine article. -- Michael Sokolov Harhan Engineering Laboratory Public Service Agent International Free Computing Task Force International Engineering and Science Task Force 615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY STE #4 DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA Phone: +1-214-824-7693 (Harhan Eng Lab office) E-mail: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (ARPA TCP/SMTP) (UUCP coming soon) Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA92914 for pups-liszt; Sun, 18 Jun 2000 01:24:42 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From soren at wheel.dk Sun Jun 18 01:21:41 2000 From: soren at wheel.dk (Soren S. Jorvang) Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 17:21:41 +0200 Subject: PUPS/TUHS should not be divisive In-Reply-To: <0006171504.AA02620@ivan.Harhan.ORG>; from msokolov@ivan.Harhan.ORG on Sat, Jun 17, 2000 at 10:04:30AM -0500 References: <0006171504.AA02620@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Message-ID: <20000617172141.A24254@gnyf.wheel.dk> On Sat, Jun 17, 2000 at 10:04:30AM -0500, Michael Sokolov wrote: > I think now is a good time for you to leave the PUPS list. -- Soren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA93266 for pups-liszt; Sun, 18 Jun 2000 02:07:23 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From mallison at konnections.com Sun Jun 18 02:05:01 2000 From: mallison at konnections.com (Mike Allison) Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 10:05:01 -0600 Subject: PUPS/TUHS should not be divisive Message-ID: <007901bfd875$cb8aaea0$ab7a3fd1@oemcomputer> I think I understand what Michael is saying. Or at least it means something to me. I don't have a lot vested here, nor have I always followed the issues with PUPS and now TUHS. Certainly a big part of this was running AT&T UNIX systems on these machines. And, TUHS might only ever be about UNIX as UNIX (R). The fact that you COULD run a unix clone -- Linux, Open BSD, what have you is fine. We can argue that true BSD was a set of improvements or additions to UNIX which may even have been sanctioned in part by the UNIX team. But the fact that you run Linux, Open BSD, MINIX or a MSDOS clone is not pertinent to running UNIX System N.n Using the GNU C Compiler is not pertinent to the AT&T K&R C compiler, per se. Is the ultimate purpose then of the list to keep the machines running regardless of OS, or to run AT&T UNIX on these systems. I won't fault Michael for his perspective. But I guess we should agree to define the parameters of the list, or agree NOT to define them. Just one insignificant soul's opinion (JOISO) -Mike Mike Allison Stranded in Utah, USA -----Original Message----- From: Michael Sokolov To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Date: Saturday, June 17, 2000 9:09 AM Subject: Re: PUPS/TUHS should not be divisive >If it isn't Ritchie and Thompson's original UNIX code, then it isn't UNIX. And >I want UNIX, in four capitals with an R-in-circle superscript. I don't care >about clones and workalikes and copycats. However "modern" they are, they are >still mere clones and copycats. And I want the genuine article. > Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA93311 for pups-liszt; Sun, 18 Jun 2000 02:20:27 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From kshuff at fast.net Sun Jun 18 02:31:18 2000 From: kshuff at fast.net (kshuff) Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 12:31:18 -0400 Subject: PUPS/TUHS should not be divisive References: <0006171504.AA02620@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Message-ID: <394BA7D6.52DD@fast.net> Michael Sokolov wrote: > If it isn't Ritchie and Thompson's original UNIX code, then it isn't UNIX. And > I want UNIX, in four capitals with an R-in-circle superscript. I don't care > about clones and workalikes and copycats. However "modern" they are, they are > still mere clones and copycats. And I want the genuine article. > That might be fine and dandy for you, but other people do not share your views and should not have to be criticized or belittled because they run more "modern" hardware and not true UNIX. We're not all living 20 years in the past. K.S. Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id DAA93671 for pups-liszt; Sun, 18 Jun 2000 03:38:21 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG Sun Jun 18 03:34:16 2000 From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov) Date: Sat, 17 Jun 00 12:34:16 CDT Subject: PUPS/TUHS should not be divisive Message-ID: <0006171734.AA02816@ivan.Harhan.ORG> kshuff wrote: > That might be fine and dandy for you, but other people do not share > your views > and should not have to be criticized or belittled because they run > more "modern" > hardware and not true UNIX. We're not all living 20 years in the > past. Then why are you on this list? -- Michael Sokolov Harhan Engineering Laboratory Public Service Agent International Free Computing Task Force International Engineering and Science Task Force 615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY STE #4 DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA Phone: +1-214-824-7693 (Harhan Eng Lab office) E-mail: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (ARPA TCP/SMTP) (UUCP coming soon) Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id EAA93867 for pups-liszt; Sun, 18 Jun 2000 04:16:41 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From obrien at NUXI.com Sun Jun 18 04:13:45 2000 From: obrien at NUXI.com (David O'Brien) Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 11:13:45 -0700 Subject: PUPS/TUHS should not be divisive In-Reply-To: <0006171504.AA02620@ivan.Harhan.ORG>; from msokolov@ivan.Harhan.ORG on Sat, Jun 17, 2000 at 10:04:30AM -0500 References: <0006171504.AA02620@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Message-ID: <20000617111345.H69941@dragon.nuxi.com> On Sat, Jun 17, 2000 at 10:04:30AM -0500, Michael Sokolov wrote: > If it isn't Ritchie and Thompson's original UNIX code, then it isn't UNIX. That is a fine opinion, and one understandable. BUT, I don't see Joy, McKusick, or Lefler on your list. So why is it again that you do 4.3BSD rather than some System III/V + 2BSD?? Joy & McKusick modified the AT&T kernel quite a bit. Or did you not know that they touched that code. -- -- David (obrien at NUXI.com) Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id EAA94035 for pups-liszt; Sun, 18 Jun 2000 04:44:49 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG Sun Jun 18 04:40:44 2000 From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov) Date: Sat, 17 Jun 00 13:40:44 CDT Subject: PUPS/TUHS should not be divisive Message-ID: <0006171840.AA02908@ivan.Harhan.ORG> David O'Brien wrote: > That is a fine opinion, and one understandable. BUT, I don't see Joy, > McKusick, or Lefler on your list. Their work is an *extension* of the Ritchie/Thompson original UNIX, not a replacement. 3BSD through 4.3BSD are direct logical successors of V7/32V research UNIX. > So why is it again that you do 4.3BSD > rather than some System III/V [...] Because I believe that 3BSD through 4.3BSD are the real trunk successors of V7 and 32V, not System III and System V (more affectionately known as Missed'em- five as you can see in the Jargon File). True UNIX is Research UNIX, UNIX that is for research purposes, not commercial ones. The AT&T Education Software License I have buried in my desk somewhere prohibits any commercial use. System III and V deserted this True UNIX mission, but Berkeley UNIX picked it up instead. Exactly the same later happened with 4.4BSD and 4.3BSD-Quasijarus. -- Michael Sokolov Harhan Engineering Laboratory Public Service Agent International Free Computing Task Force International Engineering and Science Task Force 615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY STE #4 DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA Phone: +1-214-824-7693 (Harhan Eng Lab office) E-mail: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (ARPA TCP/SMTP) (UUCP coming soon) From enf at pobox.com Sun Jun 18 05:42:48 2000 From: enf at pobox.com (Eric Fischer) Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 14:42:48 -0500 (CDT) Subject: The Unix History Graphing Project... In-Reply-To: <000616161600.262000b2@trailing-edge.com> References: <000616161600.262000b2@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <200006171942.OAA72964@shell-2.enteract.com> Tim Shoppa writes, > Is there a readable (meaning "not source code") history of *.*BSD > on the McCusick CD set? Most of the comment-type entries in the > Unix History Graphing Project for the BSD releases are pretty good, > but not real complete. Maybe this has already been covered sufficiently, but several of the BSD releases came with lists of what had changed since the previous versions. I've HTMLified the ones I have copies of at http://pobox.com/~enf/lore/unix/bsd/ eric Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA95323 for pups-liszt; Sun, 18 Jun 2000 10:26:24 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From clefevre at no-spam.citeweb.net Sun Jun 18 10:23:21 2000 From: clefevre at no-spam.citeweb.net (Cyrille Lefevre) Date: 18 Jun 2000 02:23:21 +0200 Subject: PUPS/TUHS should not be divisive In-Reply-To: msokolov@ivan.Harhan.ORG's message of "Sat, 17 Jun 00 10:04:30 CDT" References: <0006171504.AA02620@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Message-ID: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov) writes: [snip] > If it isn't Ritchie and Thompson's original UNIX code, then it isn't UNIX. And > I want UNIX, in four capitals with an R-in-circle superscript. I don't care > about clones and workalikes and copycats. However "modern" they are, they are > still mere clones and copycats. And I want the genuine article. are you sure your name isn't "Rev. Don Kool" alias oldno7 at home.com ? it's a joke :) Cyrille. -- home:mailto:clefevre at no-spam.citeweb.net Supprimer "no-spam." pour me repondre. work:mailto:Cyrille.Lefevre at no-spam.edf.fr Remove "no-spam." to answer me back. From wkt at cs.adfa.edu.au Mon Jun 19 11:25:02 2000 From: wkt at cs.adfa.edu.au (Warren Toomey) Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 11:25:02 +1000 (EST) Subject: List Charter, please In-Reply-To: from Alan F R Bain at "Jun 18, 2000 7:26:31 pm" Message-ID: <200006190125.LAA67300@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> In article by Alan F R Bain: > Warren, > Maybe it would be possible to have list guidelines. > Alan Here is the PUPS list charter. If you have violent opposition to it, then please e-mail me. Warren The PUPS list on minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au promotes communication between those people who are interested in the versions of Unix which ran on PDP-11s. Unix is defined as the set of operating systems who can trace their source code ancestry back to the 1st to 7th Editions of research UNIX from Bell Labs. Topics that fall within the list's charter include: + how to install, configure & maintain a PDP-11 Unix system + discussion of PDP-11 hardware issues related to PDP-11 Unix + applications for PDP-11 Unix systems + modification of PDP-11 Unix systems + technical comparisons between PDP-11 Unix systems + anecdotes relating to the history & development of PDP-11 Unix + discussion & announcements of the contents of the PDP-11 section of the Unix Archive Topics that fall outside of the list's charter include: + discussion on non PDP-11 Unix systems, unless they are being compared technically with PDP-11 Unix systems + attacks on particular individuals, groups or organisations + postings which disenfranchise or alienate a individual list subscriber, a group of subscribers, or a particular version of PDP-11 Unix The list will, in general, not be moderated. However, if a list subscriber continues to send off-charter postings to the list after warnings to that effect, then their postings may be moderated. Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA04039 for pups-liszt; Mon, 19 Jun 2000 18:01:21 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From leypold at informatik.uni-tuebingen.de Mon Jun 19 17:58:11 2000 From: leypold at informatik.uni-tuebingen.de (Markus Leypold) Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 09:58:11 +0200 (CEST) Subject: 4.4BSD-Alpha in the TUHS/PUPS archive 4BSD area In-Reply-To: <0006162012.AA01527@ivan.Harhan.ORG> (msokolov@ivan.Harhan.ORG) References: <0006162012.AA01527@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Message-ID: <200006190758.JAA24577@informatik.uni-tuebingen.de> > Delivered-To: leypold at lesbains.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de > Date: Fri, 16 Jun 00 15:12:55 CDT > From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov) > Sender: owner-tuhs at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au > > Quasijarus Consortium members and TUHS/PUPS archive users, > > Today Tim Shoppa has read the HP300 4.4BSD-Alpha distribution on a 9-track 6250 > BPI tape and I have just put it in the archive. It is in > > Distributions/4bsd/4.4BSD-Alpha > > Of course we generally don't do 4.4BSD, but we do include it in the archival > and preservation section of our project. Hi Friends, I really appreciate that. I'm - generally - more a reader than a user of ancient code, so concentration on a certain version (or architecture, i.e. BSD vs the VAX or others) is not as important for me as is an uninterupted, complete coverage of historical versions. Having access to this version of BSD4.4 and (soon) all the other stuff, Tim Shoppa discovered recently, is really GREAT for me. Please keep everything You can. I think I can predict reliably, future generations of software historians will be very thankful. Regards -- Markus Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA04080 for pups-liszt; Mon, 19 Jun 2000 18:14:54 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From leypold at informatik.uni-tuebingen.de Mon Jun 19 18:11:45 2000 From: leypold at informatik.uni-tuebingen.de (Markus Leypold) Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 10:11:45 +0200 (CEST) Subject: The Unix History Graphing Project... In-Reply-To: (apgarcia@hackaholic.org) References: <0006162041.AA01624@ivan.Harhan.ORG> <20000616174408.A20743@rek.tjls.com> <20000616161053.F35577@dragon.nuxi.com> Message-ID: <200006190811.KAA24592@informatik.uni-tuebingen.de> > Delivered-To: leypold at lesbains.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de > From: "A. P. Garcia" > Date: 17 Jun 2000 00:16:48 +0000 > Lines: 13 > User-Agent: Gnus/5.0804 (Gnus v5.8.4) Emacs/20.6 > Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au > > "David O'Brien" writes: > > > > I would like to ask that Mr. Solokov's association with the PUPS and TUHS > > > projects be ended if he can not restrain himself from posting inflammatory > > > material of this nature on the lists. > > > > I have to agree. From his emails, Mr. Solokov is a rather rabid individual. > > No, I agree with whomever it was - I think Patrick Henry - that said > something like "I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend > to the death your right to say it." > > You can always send his mail to /dev/null if you don't like it. I agree. Still I'd prefer (and humbly ask) from Michael Solokov a more diplomatic attitude. As far as I can see, Mr Bostic has contributed to UNIX in general and to the PUPS later, which entitles him to being treated somewhat more respectfully :-) UNIX is variance, not a one-size-fits-all system. On the other side, Michael has ventured, to port BSD4.3 to modern VAXens (a noble enterprise in my eyes), and it would make me sad, to see so excellent and noble :-) men fight each other. Let's avoid that, and let there be no war in the (ancient) UNIX camp. I hope Michael had no intention to hurt the feelings of Keith Bostic. Regards -- Markus > Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA04100 for pups-liszt; Mon, 19 Jun 2000 18:19:08 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From leypold at informatik.uni-tuebingen.de Mon Jun 19 18:16:01 2000 From: leypold at informatik.uni-tuebingen.de (Markus Leypold) Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 10:16:01 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Yet Another "where does it fit" question In-Reply-To: <000616202913.262000b0@trailing-edge.com> (message from Tim Shoppa on Fri, 16 Jun 2000 20:29:13 -0400) References: <000616202913.262000b0@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <200006190816.KAA24598@informatik.uni-tuebingen.de> > Delivered-To: leypold at lesbains.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de > Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 20:29:13 -0400 > From: Tim Shoppa > Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au > > Yesterday I asked: > > >Two tapes labeled "Vol 1 of 2" and "Vol 2 of 2" and then "2.10.2 SMS > >Unix". Steven, does this mean you know what's on this and how it's > >different than the 2.10 and 2.10.1 stuff already in the archive? :-) Terry > >didn't remember... > > Now that I've read the tapes, this is a 1990-ish step halfway between > 2.10.1 and 2.11, as developed by Steven Schultz (and debugged by > Terry on his 11/70, judging from the comments.) Is this something > worthwhile to put in the archive? At the moment, looking at the > timeline of PDP-11 Unices currently in the archive, we have at the > "fairly recent" end: > > 2.9 from 1983 > 2.9.1BSD from 1983 > 2.10BSD from 1987 > 2.10.1BSD from 1989 > 2.11BSD from the past year > > Would it be a worthwhile thing to put 2.10.2 up as an intermediate > step filling in the ten year gap between 2.10.1 and the current 2.11? > I'm worried that whenever I find a metric buttload of Unix tapes that my Hehe. That seems to be a real danger :-) > proposals of adding everything in them to the archive may just be > adding too much volume that folks simply aren't interested in. Hi Tim, PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE. Seriously: If You ever do not want to put something in the archive, give it to me. I have the impression one needs the intermediate versions to be ever able to crosscheck the transfer of features between the diverse branches. Regards Markus. > > -- > Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa at trailing-edge.com > Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ > 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 > Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 > Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA04208 for pups-liszt; Mon, 19 Jun 2000 18:52:21 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From leypold at informatik.uni-tuebingen.de Mon Jun 19 18:48:59 2000 From: leypold at informatik.uni-tuebingen.de (Markus Leypold) Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 10:48:59 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Yet Another "where does it fit" question In-Reply-To: (message from Robin Birch on Sat, 17 Jun 2000 11:36:15 +0100) References: <200006170209.TAA24691@moe.2bsd.com> Message-ID: <200006190848.KAA24676@informatik.uni-tuebingen.de> > Delivered-To: leypold at lesbains.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de > Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 11:36:15 +0100 > Cc: PUPS at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au, SHOPPA at trailing-edge.com > From: Robin Birch > Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au > > In message <200006170209.TAA24691 at moe.2bsd.com>, Steven M. Schultz > writes > >Hi -- > > > > I hope I'm in the right mailing list :) > > > >> From: Tim Shoppa > >> Yesterday I asked: > >> > >> >Two tapes labeled "Vol 1 of 2" and "Vol 2 of 2" and then "2.10.2 SMS > >> >Unix". Steven, does this mean you know what's on this and how it's > >> >different than the 2.10 and 2.10.1 stuff already in the archive? :-) Terry > >> >didn't remember... > >> > >> Now that I've read the tapes, this is a 1990-ish step halfway between > >> 2.10.1 and 2.11, as developed by Steven Schultz (and debugged by > >> Terry on his 11/70, judging from the comments.) Is this something > > > I think it would be - I didn't save a copy for myself ;) > > > For what it's worth I think this brings in an interesting branch to the > archive. Should there be a space for stuff we should hold for purely > historical reference purposes and a different one for stuff that would > normally be interesting to the average user group punter?. This might > have some effects on the archive structure. Well, perhaps not the archive structure should be changed. What I miss is more something like a getting-started-guide: Which versions you could try first with - let's say the emulator - and how to boot them. Regards -- Markus > > Robin > > ____________________________________________________________________ > Robin Birch robin at ruffnready.co.uk > > M1ASU/2E0ARJ/M5ABD Old computers and radios always welcome > Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA04250 for pups-liszt; Mon, 19 Jun 2000 19:01:27 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From leypold at informatik.uni-tuebingen.de Mon Jun 19 18:58:21 2000 From: leypold at informatik.uni-tuebingen.de (Markus Leypold) Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 10:58:21 +0200 (CEST) Subject: PUPS/TUHS should not be divisive In-Reply-To: <007901bfd875$cb8aaea0$ab7a3fd1@oemcomputer> (mallison@konnections.com) References: <007901bfd875$cb8aaea0$ab7a3fd1@oemcomputer> Message-ID: <200006190858.KAA24686@informatik.uni-tuebingen.de> > Delivered-To: leypold at lesbains.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de > From: "Mike Allison" > Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 10:05:01 -0600 > Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au > > I think I understand what Michael is saying. Or at least it means something > to me. > > I don't have a lot vested here, nor have I always followed the issues with > PUPS and now TUHS. > > Certainly a big part of this was running AT&T UNIX systems on these > machines. And, TUHS might only ever be about UNIX as UNIX (R). Well, the demarcation lines are not wuite clearly drawn. Only yesterday my eyes fell on a paragraph in Peter Salus Book: 4.xBSD brought ... improvments ... also a port to the Intel 386/486 Architecture by Bill Jolitz. Well, 386BSD became FreeBSD and it's offspring. Why can't we just stay on big family ? Of course FreeBSD has it's archives elsewhere, but still no reason to divide instead of unite ? > > The fact that you COULD run a unix clone -- Linux, Open BSD, what have you > is fine. We can argue that true BSD was a set of improvements or additions > to UNIX which may even have been sanctioned in part by the UNIX team. But > the fact that you run Linux, Open BSD, MINIX or a MSDOS clone is not > pertinent to running UNIX System N.n > > Using the GNU C Compiler is not pertinent to the AT&T K&R C compiler, per > se. > > Is the ultimate purpose then of the list to keep the machines running > regardless of OS, or to run AT&T UNIX on these systems. > > I won't fault Michael for his perspective. But I guess we should agree to > define the parameters of the list, or agree NOT to define them. Well, not to be disprespectful to honorable members of the community certainly should be a parameter :-) It makes me sad to see all this. Regards -- Markus > Just one insignificant soul's opinion (JOISO) > > -Mike > > Mike Allison > Stranded in Utah, USA > -----Original Message----- > From: Michael Sokolov > To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au > Date: Saturday, June 17, 2000 9:09 AM > Subject: Re: PUPS/TUHS should not be divisive > > > >If it isn't Ritchie and Thompson's original UNIX code, then it isn't UNIX. > And > >I want UNIX, in four capitals with an R-in-circle superscript. I don't care > >about clones and workalikes and copycats. However "modern" they are, they > are > >still mere clones and copycats. And I want the genuine article. > > > > Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA04261 for pups-liszt; Mon, 19 Jun 2000 19:02:46 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From leypold at informatik.uni-tuebingen.de Mon Jun 19 18:59:40 2000 From: leypold at informatik.uni-tuebingen.de (Markus Leypold) Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 10:59:40 +0200 (CEST) Subject: PUPS/TUHS should not be divisive In-Reply-To: <394BA7D6.52DD@fast.net> (message from kshuff on Sat, 17 Jun 2000 12:31:18 -0400) References: <0006171504.AA02620@ivan.Harhan.ORG> <394BA7D6.52DD@fast.net> Message-ID: <200006190859.KAA24689@informatik.uni-tuebingen.de> > Delivered-To: leypold at lesbains.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de > Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 12:31:18 -0400 > From: kshuff > Organization: I'm not organized > Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au > > Michael Sokolov wrote: > > > still mere clones and copycats. And I want the genuine article. > > > > That might be fine and dandy for you, but other people do not share > your views > and should not have to be criticized or belittled because they run > more "modern" > hardware and not true UNIX. We're not all living 20 years in the > past. And some use emulators within modern systems to get a feel for 'the genuine article'. -- Markus Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA04779 for pups-liszt; Mon, 19 Jun 2000 20:36:13 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From tfb at cley.com Mon Jun 19 20:32:14 2000 From: tfb at cley.com (Tim Bradshaw) Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 11:32:14 +0100 (BST) Subject: The Unix History Graphing Project... In-Reply-To: <200006190811.KAA24592@informatik.uni-tuebingen.de> References: <0006162041.AA01624@ivan.Harhan.ORG> <20000616174408.A20743@rek.tjls.com> <20000616161053.F35577@dragon.nuxi.com> <200006190811.KAA24592@informatik.uni-tuebingen.de> Message-ID: <14669.63150.572660.30605@cley.com> * Markus Leypold wrote: > On the other side, Michael has ventured, to port BSD4.3 to modern > VAXens (a noble enterprise in my eyes), Weell, I don't know about that. All them modern Vaxens aren't really *original* are they? Got microprocessors in, half of 'em. Never did hold with any kind of computer you didn't need a lorry to move, myself. --tim Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA04954 for pups-liszt; Mon, 19 Jun 2000 21:22:24 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From tls at rek.tjls.com Mon Jun 19 21:19:11 2000 From: tls at rek.tjls.com (Thor Lancelot Simon) Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 07:19:11 -0400 Subject: PUPS/TUHS should not be divisive In-Reply-To: <200006190858.KAA24686@informatik.uni-tuebingen.de>; from leypold@informatik.uni-tuebingen.de on Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 10:58:21AM +0200 References: <007901bfd875$cb8aaea0$ab7a3fd1@oemcomputer> <200006190858.KAA24686@informatik.uni-tuebingen.de> Message-ID: <20000619071911.A23440@rek.tjls.com> On Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 10:58:21AM +0200, Markus Leypold wrote: > > > > Delivered-To: leypold at lesbains.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de > > From: "Mike Allison" > > Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 10:05:01 -0600 > > Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au > > > > I think I understand what Michael is saying. Or at least it means something > > to me. > > > > I don't have a lot vested here, nor have I always followed the issues with > > PUPS and now TUHS. > > > > Certainly a big part of this was running AT&T UNIX systems on these > > machines. And, TUHS might only ever be about UNIX as UNIX (R). > > Well, the demarcation lines are not wuite clearly drawn. Only > yesterday my eyes fell on a paragraph in Peter Salus Book: 4.xBSD > brought ... improvments ... also a port to the Intel 386/486 > Architecture by Bill Jolitz. Well, 386BSD became FreeBSD and it's > offspring. For those trying to keep track of the exact Unix history graph, it should be noted that the above history isn't quite right. Jolitz' original 386 port was partially done for CSRG and partially done for what became BSDI. A somewhat infamous falling-out during Usenix resulted in Jolitz *redoing* his 386 port and releasing it as 386BSD shortly after BSDI released BSD/386. BSD/386 0.0 was released, then 0.1. Jolitz kept saying things about "0.2" but it began to become clear to most people that it wouldn't be released soon, if ever. A semi-official "patchkit" sprung up, and soon most people were running 386BSD 0.1 plus patchkit X. Meanwhile, Adam Glass and Chris Demetriou and, soon, a small number of others, started work on what became NetBSD, a centrally managed free software project that sought to bring some CSRG-like focus to the 386BSD chaos. An early snapshot of this made its way to the patchkit folks, who declined for various reasons to participate. NetBSD 0.8 was released, and a little bit later the patchkit maintainers (mostly) released FreeBSD. Though there was new work -- and would eventually be a *lot* of new work -- there was also clearly a lot of code that came not from 386BSD or the patchkits but from that pre-0.8 NetBSD snapshot. Since these facts are pretty well known among the principals involved it's always been a mystery to me why Unix history graphs seem to get the later wiggles in the xBSD line all wrong. Thor Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA05220 for pups-liszt; Mon, 19 Jun 2000 22:41:55 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From db at aptant.com Mon Jun 19 22:37:08 2000 From: db at aptant.com (Donald Brownlee) Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 05:37:08 -0700 Subject: save everything Message-ID: <394E13B9.19957855@aptant.com> My $0.02: I once wondered whether the techniques of literary textual criticism could be used in order to determine whether a Linux, FreeBSD, groff -- whatever! -- is in any way derived from an earlier work. Textual criticism considers a work by examining several or all of the extant textual variations in an attempt to determine what the author originally wrote; it has been used to reconstruct the "original" texts of the ancient as well as some modern writers, such as James Joyce. It yields a tree of texts, in which the root is the "original," and the sibling children of any node are the descendants of a common, perhaps hypothetical, text. I don't know much else about it, except that its results may depend on alot of knowledge and informed speculation. The textual critics work bottom-up to arrive at an original text; I am thinking of a top-down process, working from an original text, to show that a work lower in a tree is derived from the original. If such a technique were valid at all, its validity would only be improved with the availablity of many, many "texts." The techniques might be more useful where, for example, there were several V7 tapes that people thought were original, but which, on inspection, turned out to be different. In this situation, textual criticism might be used to reconstruct a "true," V7 release tape, and, in this situation, would be a bottom-up application of the techniques. In any event, I think that it is important to preserve alot of tapes, and to keep them separate with as much information as possible about their pedigree. If someone ever did use such a technique -- or any other technique -- to reconstruct a "true" release, it is important that they document their work and not throw away the tapes that contributed to the "true" tape, because even more tapes may appear in the future which could lead to the reconstruction of an even truer tape. Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA05638 for pups-liszt; Tue, 20 Jun 2000 00:09:12 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG Tue Jun 20 00:04:49 2000 From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov) Date: Mon, 19 Jun 00 09:04:49 CDT Subject: PUPS/TUHS should not be divisive Message-ID: <0006191404.AA05277@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Markus Leypold wrote: > And some use emulators within modern systems to get a feel for 'the > genuine article'. No, no emulator can give you a feel for the genuine article. You won't get that feel until you get your toes crushed by an H9642 side panel, get your knuckles scraped by a BA23, or take a day off with your back hurting after carrying an RA81 across the campus. -- Michael Sokolov Harhan Engineering Laboratory Public Service Agent International Free Computing Task Force International Engineering and Science Task Force 615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY STE #4 DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA Phone: +1-214-824-7693 (Harhan Eng Lab office) E-mail: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (ARPA TCP/SMTP) (UUCP coming soon) Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA05657 for pups-liszt; Tue, 20 Jun 2000 00:12:04 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From pino at dohd.cx Tue Jun 20 00:08:36 2000 From: pino at dohd.cx (Martijn van Buul) Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 16:08:36 +0200 Subject: [Newbie alert!] Disk usage of various Unices Message-ID: <20000619160836.A12288@mud.stack.nl> Hello! I recently obtained a beast which appears to be a PDP 11/53+, and I want to run some Unix on it (Wahey!). I've got a small problem though: It only has one(!) RD32A disk (42MB). I know that this probably won't be enough to hold a complete distribution, but which release can I install bare-bones on that disk? I might be able to slip in another MFM disk (but I don't have something bigger than 21 MB at hand), provided I can low-level format it. Your help is greatly appreciated.. -- Martijn van Buul - Pino at dohd.cx - http://www.stack.nl/~martijnb/ Visit OuterSpace: mud.stack.nl 3333 Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA05774 for pups-liszt; Tue, 20 Jun 2000 00:31:17 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG Tue Jun 20 00:25:44 2000 From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov) Date: Mon, 19 Jun 00 09:25:44 CDT Subject: PUPS/TUHS should not be divisive Message-ID: <0006191425.AA05387@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Markus Leypold wrote: > Why can't we just stay on big family ? Of course FreeBSD has it's > archives elsewhere, but still no reason to divide instead of unite ? According to Warren's Charter, PUPS and TUHS are both specifically for UNIX. His Charter defines UNIX as follows: "Unix is defined as the set of operating systems who can trace their source code ancestry back to the 1st to 7th Editions of research UNIX from Bell Labs." Any system that fits this definition automatically falls under the original UNIX copyright and may not be distributed outside the circle of UNIX source licensees. Therefore, if you think that FreeBSD fits this definition and belongs in this group, you must stop publicly distributing it. Otherwise, it does not belong in the archive or on these lists. -- Michael Sokolov Harhan Engineering Laboratory Public Service Agent International Free Computing Task Force International Engineering and Science Task Force 615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY STE #4 DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA Phone: +1-214-824-7693 (Harhan Eng Lab office) E-mail: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (ARPA TCP/SMTP) (UUCP coming soon) Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA05755 for pups-liszt; Tue, 20 Jun 2000 00:30:18 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From SHOPPA at trailing-edge.com Tue Jun 20 00:27:09 2000 From: SHOPPA at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 10:27:09 -0400 Subject: [Newbie alert!] Disk usage of various Unices Message-ID: <000619102709.262000b0@trailing-edge.com> >I recently obtained a beast which appears to be a PDP 11/53+, and I want >to run some Unix on it (Wahey!). I've got a small problem though: It >only has one(!) RD32A disk (42MB). I know that this probably won't be >enough to hold a complete distribution, but which release can I install >bare-bones on that disk? You can put the root partition of 2.11BSD on there quite nicely, it'll live in 8 Mbytes. Trimming down /usr to 42 Mbytes will depend on what exactly you need from it, though. Certainly you can set up a system with compilers, etc., even though you won't be able to have all the sources online at the same time. >I might be able to slip in another MFM disk (but I don't have something >bigger than 21 MB at hand), provided I can low-level format it. You want to read Terry Kennedy's document on adding third-party disks to DEC RQDX3 controllers. You can find it at ftp://ftp.spc.edu/third-party-disks.txt Information about formatting, jumper settings, etc., is all there. Tim. Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA05794 for pups-liszt; Tue, 20 Jun 2000 00:35:36 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From andy.sporner at networkengines.com Tue Jun 20 00:30:39 2000 From: andy.sporner at networkengines.com (Andrew Sporner) Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 10:30:39 -0400 Subject: save everything and divisiveness Message-ID: <8D18C4F9CBA1D311900F00A0C990C97F67C8CD@neimail.networkengines.com> + my $0.02 makes $1.00 >From my perspective I have watched this argument on this list about purism and otherwise. >From a practical sense, historical trueness makes sense when we are considering changes to something. That is to evaluate whether it was better before or after; with the ultimate goal of coming up with a truly usefull sytem. Otherwise O/S researchers would never be able to make advancements because they would be repeating each others mistakes. But to take a lesson from history makes having such an archive of old source important. To get hung up on a particular release makes sense I guess if you are a collector, such as one who collects vases because that is an art form. A vase from the Ming chinesse period is worth more if it has not been modified (for instance some later owner decides that there are not enough flowers on the vase--so he adds some). However with Systems software this is not the case because it is not a tangible item such as a processor such as a PDP-11 or PDP-8. I know many people that still run PDP-8's (I have one myself), but universally ever user of the '8 is trying to make the software on it run better and more efficiently. So I would not be one to castigate some pioneers of systems software whoses names happened not to be K&R. I am sure that the both Kernigan and Richie both are marveled at what Unix has become. In fact I believe one of them went on to write Plan-9 which is really off-the-wall compared to their earlier work. Good software is inherrently in a steady process of evolution. The only piece of software I have ever seen that never evolved was the classic "Hello World" program that everybody learns to write on their first lesson in programming. OK, That's it... Andy Sporner > > My $0.02: > > > I once wondered whether the techniques of literary textual > criticism could be used in order to determine whether a Linux, > FreeBSD, groff -- whatever! -- is in any way derived from an > earlier work. Textual criticism considers a work by examining > several or all of the extant textual variations in an attempt > to determine what the author originally wrote; it has been > used to reconstruct the "original" texts of the ancient as > well as some modern writers, such as James Joyce. It > yields a tree of texts, in which the root is the "original," > and the sibling children of any node are the descendants of a > common, perhaps hypothetical, text. I don't know much > else about it, except that its results may depend on alot > of knowledge and informed speculation. The textual critics > work bottom-up to arrive at an original text; I am thinking > of a top-down process, working from an original text, to show that a > work lower in a tree is derived from the original. If such a > technique were valid at all, its validity would only be improved > with the availablity of many, many "texts." The techniques might be > more useful where, for example, there were several V7 tapes > that people > thought were original, but which, on inspection, turned out > to be different. > In this situation, textual criticism might be used to > reconstruct a "true," V7 > release tape, and, in this situation, would be a bottom-up > application of the techniques. > > In any event, I think that it is important to preserve alot of > tapes, and to keep them separate with as much information as > possible about their pedigree. If someone ever did use such > a technique -- or any other technique -- to reconstruct a > "true" release, > it is important that they document their work and not throw away the > tapes that contributed to the "true" tape, because even more > tapes may appear in the future which could lead to > the reconstruction of an even truer tape. > Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA05825 for pups-liszt; Tue, 20 Jun 2000 00:41:54 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG Tue Jun 20 00:37:31 2000 From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov) Date: Mon, 19 Jun 00 09:37:31 CDT Subject: The Unix History Graphing Project... Message-ID: <0006191437.AA05415@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Tim Bradshaw wrote: > * Markus Leypold wrote: > > On the other side, Michael has ventured, to port BSD4.3 to modern > > VAXens (a noble enterprise in my eyes), > > Weell, I don't know about that. All them modern Vaxens aren't really > *original* are they? Got microprocessors in, half of 'em. Never did > hold with any kind of computer you didn't need a lorry to move, > myself. Now, stop right there! I'm an international agent and I'm armed! :-) To start with, I don't want to use the term "modern", ever. As for what VAXen I support and target, my primary emphasis is on BI/XMI VAXen, which are very big and are absolute miracles of architectural beauty. They don't undermine the original VAXness a single bit. On the opposite, they actually implement many of the astounding miracles of the holy original VAX Architecture Reference Manual that the original VAX-11s were only going to. I also place a high emphasis on Q22-bus MicroVAXen, as they are readily available and don't require special power, and yet they fully comply with the proper VAX architecture. There are also BabyVAXen, which is what NutBSDists and others talking about "modern VAXen" are probably talking about. Those are indeed very cost-reduced, VAXness-deprived, and PeeCee-fied. I do plan on supporting them, just so that I support every VAX ever made, but I by no means endorse them. They are not real VAXen. -- Michael Sokolov Harhan Engineering Laboratory Public Service Agent International Free Computing Task Force International Engineering and Science Task Force 615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY STE #4 DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA Phone: +1-214-824-7693 (Harhan Eng Lab office) E-mail: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (ARPA TCP/SMTP) (UUCP coming soon) Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA05864 for pups-liszt; Tue, 20 Jun 2000 00:45:21 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG Tue Jun 20 00:40:50 2000 From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov) Date: Mon, 19 Jun 00 09:40:50 CDT Subject: PUPS/TUHS should not be divisive Message-ID: <0006191440.AA05429@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Thor Lancelot Simon wrote: > [snipped discussion of clones and workalikes not containing any original UNIX > code and thus of no relevance to this group] By the Charter I'm asking you to take this elsewhere. -- Michael Sokolov Harhan Engineering Laboratory Public Service Agent International Free Computing Task Force International Engineering and Science Task Force 615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY STE #4 DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA Phone: +1-214-824-7693 (Harhan Eng Lab office) E-mail: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (ARPA TCP/SMTP) (UUCP coming soon) Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA05998 for pups-liszt; Tue, 20 Jun 2000 01:14:17 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From tls at rek.tjls.com Tue Jun 20 01:11:00 2000 From: tls at rek.tjls.com (Thor Lancelot Simon) Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 11:11:00 -0400 Subject: PUPS/TUHS should not be divisive In-Reply-To: <0006191440.AA05429@ivan.Harhan.ORG>; from msokolov@ivan.Harhan.ORG on Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 09:40:50AM -0500 References: <0006191440.AA05429@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Message-ID: <20000619111100.A5557@rek.tjls.com> On Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 09:40:50AM -0500, Michael Sokolov wrote: > Thor Lancelot Simon wrote: > > > [snipped discussion of clones and workalikes not containing any original UNIX > > code and thus of no relevance to this group] > > By the Charter I'm asking you to take this elsewhere. I'm asking you, once more, to take your fanaticism elsewhere. I'm also asking the moderator, once more, in light of this, your recent attacks on Keith Bostic, your totally gratuitous "NutBSD" swipe in your most recent missive, and your general misbehaviour and abysmal nettiquite in your time on this list, to cause you to take your fanaticism elsewhere. Had it ever occurred to you that others might not delineate "Unix" in quite the same way in which you do? Of course not. Your opinion is the only one that matters, and if anyone else doesn't see it that way, well, then, by God, you'll just have to spew flamage until he goes away. Great. Really, absolutely what's needed in a preservation project. Thor Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA06047 for pups-liszt; Tue, 20 Jun 2000 01:19:32 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG Tue Jun 20 01:14:59 2000 From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov) Date: Mon, 19 Jun 00 10:14:59 CDT Subject: PUPS/TUHS should not be divisive Message-ID: <0006191514.AA05578@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Thor Lancelot Simon wrote: > Had it ever occurred to you that others might not delineate "Unix" > in quite the same way in which you do? In this case my definition of UNIX agrees with that set by the Charters for both lists. -- Michael Sokolov Harhan Engineering Laboratory Public Service Agent International Free Computing Task Force International Engineering and Science Task Force 615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY STE #4 DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA Phone: +1-214-824-7693 (Harhan Eng Lab office) E-mail: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (ARPA TCP/SMTP) (UUCP coming soon) Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA06069 for pups-liszt; Tue, 20 Jun 2000 01:20:58 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From joe at barrera.org Tue Jun 20 01:17:01 2000 From: joe at barrera.org (Joseph S. Barrera III) Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 08:17:01 -0700 Subject: PUPS/TUHS should not be divisive In-Reply-To: <0006191440.AA05429@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Message-ID: <000001bfda01$6f987c70$0300a8c0@joebar> > By the Charter I'm asking you to take this elsewhere. Bwa ha ha. That's pretty funny, Michael. Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA06137 for pups-liszt; Tue, 20 Jun 2000 01:35:35 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From RBROADWAY at tbs-ltd.co.uk Tue Jun 20 01:29:44 2000 From: RBROADWAY at tbs-ltd.co.uk (Broadway, Rusel) Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 16:29:44 +0100 Subject: No subject Message-ID: <9114940C5E0FD31186950008C7B9A6021845D4@coexch.tbs-ltd.co.uk.50.130.194.in-addr.arpa> ********************** N O T I C E ********************************* This information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain confidential and/or privileged material. Any review , retransmission, dissemination or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon, this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you received this in error, please contact the sender and delete all copies of the message. This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept for the presence of computer viruses, however we cannot guarantee that this message is free from such problems. ********************************************************************** -------------- next part -------------- I agree with Thor: Either grow up or get out! Rusel Broadway Senior Systems Analyst (e-mail Rbroadway at tbs-ltd.co.uk , DDI: 01206-25-5745) The Book Service Ltd. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Programmer.gif Type: image/gif Size: 3235 bytes Desc: not available URL: From obrien at NUXI.com Tue Jun 20 03:59:54 2000 From: obrien at NUXI.com (David O'Brien) Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 10:59:54 -0700 Subject: The Unix History Graphing Project... In-Reply-To: <0006191437.AA05415@ivan.Harhan.ORG>; from msokolov@ivan.Harhan.ORG on Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 09:37:31AM -0500 References: <0006191437.AA05415@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Message-ID: <20000619105954.D2592@dragon.nuxi.com> On Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 09:37:31AM -0500, Michael Sokolov wrote: > There are also BabyVAXen, which is what NutBSDists and others talking about ^^^^^ This is *TOTALY* uncalled for. Warren, Michael has definitely crossed the bounds of lack of respect for others. Would you please consider moderating his posts? -- -- David (obrien at NUXI.com) From rdkeys at unity.ncsu.edu Tue Jun 20 06:06:24 2000 From: rdkeys at unity.ncsu.edu (rdkeys at unity.ncsu.edu) Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 16:06:24 -0400 (EDT) Subject: PUPS/TUHS UNIX scope..... In-Reply-To: <0006191425.AA05387@ivan.Harhan.ORG> from "Michael Sokolov" at Jun 19, 2000 09:25:44 AM Message-ID: <200006192006.QAA21903@uni02du.unity.ncsu.edu> > According to Warren's Charter, PUPS and TUHS are both specifically for UNIX. > His Charter defines UNIX as follows: > > "Unix is defined as the set of operating systems who can trace their source > code ancestry back to the 1st to 7th Editions of research UNIX from Bell Labs." > > Any system that fits this definition automatically falls under the original > UNIX copyright and may not be distributed outside the circle of UNIX source > licensees. Therefore, if you think that FreeBSD fits this definition and > belongs in this group, you must stop publicly distributing it. Otherwise, it > does not belong in the archive or on these lists. One might easily consider Warren's Charter definition, following the wording closely, to mean that it includes successor derivatives of V1-V7. That might particularly include the BSD's, be they original CSRG code or derived code, which can be traced back through CSRG, to V1-V7. All of the x86ish derivations can be traced back to Jolitz's port which had its beginnings around 4.3 or 4.3-Tahoe, if I am remembering the source tree structure in one of my source trees. Thus, technically, a direct lineal descent case of 386BSD, NetBSD, and FreeBSD, up through the point of unencumbering, could be made as subject to Warren's Charter definition, and subject to our archiving scope. Bob From SHOPPA at trailing-edge.com Sun Jun 25 11:18:02 2000 From: SHOPPA at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 21:18:02 -0400 Subject: Installing SYSTEM III; stuck! Message-ID: <000624211802.2620014a@trailing-edge.com> OK, I think I'm figuring out how to install Unix System III on a 11/45. In particular, I mount the first tape on a MT tape drive, get a RP04 up and spinning, and boot from tape: UNIX tape boot loader UNIX -- Initial Load: Tape-to-Disk The type of disk drive on which the Root file system will reside, as well as the type of tape drive that will be used for Tape 1 must be specified below. Answer the questions with a 'y' or 'n' followed by a carriage return or line feed. There is no type-ahead -- wait for the question to complete. The character '@' will kill the entire line, while the character '#' will erase the last character typed. RP03 at address 176710?: n RP04/5/6 at address 176700?: y Drive number (0-7)?: 0 Disk drive 0 selected. Mount a formatted pack on drive 0. Ready?: y TU10/TM11 at address 172520?: y Drive number (0-7)?: 0 Tape drive 0 selected. The tape on drive 0 will be read from the current position at 800bpi, 5120 characters (10 blocks) per record, and written onto the pack on drive 0 starting at block 0. Ready?: y Size of filesystem to be copied is 6000 blocks. What is the pack volume label? (e.g. p0001): p0001 The pack will be labelled p0001. The boot block for your type of disk drive will now be installed. The file system copy is now complete. To boot the basic unix for your disk and tape drives as indicated above, mount this pack on drive 0 and read in the boot block (block 0) using whatever means you have available; see romboot(8), 70boot(8). Then boot the program unixhptm using diskboot(8). Normally: #0=unixhptm The system will initially come up single-user; see init(8). If you have an upper case only console terminal, you must execute: stty lcase; see stty(1). After UNIX is up, link the file unixhptm to unix using ln(1). # ln /unixhptm /unix Set the date(1). Good Luck! The tape will now be rewound. [Now I boot from the RP04]: #0=unixhptm UNIX/3.0.1: unixhptm real mem = 253952 bytes avail mem = 187584 bytes unix single-user # ls -l total 805 drwxr-xr-x 2 root sys 32 Feb 15 1979 bck drwxrwxr-x 2 bin bin 1312 Dec 15 1981 bin drwxr-xr-x 2 root sys 528 Dec 15 1981 dev drwxr-xr-x 3 root sys 1056 Oct 26 14:57 etc drwxrwxr-x 2 bin bin 272 Dec 15 1981 lib drwxrwxrwx 2 bin bin 32 May 31 1980 lost+found drwxr-xr-x 2 root sys 32 Feb 15 1979 mnt drwxrwxr-x 3 bin bin 368 Dec 15 1981 stand -rwxrwxr-x 1 sys sys 51382 Nov 9 1982 unixhpht -rwxrwxr-x 1 sys sys 50778 Sep 3 1980 unixhptm -rwxrwxr-x 1 sys sys 49380 Sep 3 1980 unixrkht -rwxrwxr-x 1 sys sys 48782 Sep 3 1980 unixrktm -rwxrwxr-x 1 sys sys 50172 Sep 3 1980 unixrlht -rwxrwxr-x 1 sys sys 49574 Sep 3 1980 unixrltm -rwxrwxr-x 1 sys sys 49704 Sep 3 1980 unixrpht -rwxrwxr-x 1 sys sys 49106 Sep 3 1980 unixrptm drwxr-xr-x 2 sys sys 32 Aug 19 08:46 usr But what do I do next? There's a bunch of 5120-byte-record files still on the tape, and the "/bin" on the root filesystem doesn't have "tar" or "restor". It *does* have cpio, and I think that's what I want to use. So what's the next step? -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa at trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA52023 for pups-liszt; Sun, 25 Jun 2000 18:53:46 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From wkt at cs.adfa.edu.au Sun Jun 25 18:52:47 2000 From: wkt at cs.adfa.edu.au (Warren Toomey) Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 18:52:47 +1000 (EST) Subject: Installing SYSTEM III; stuck! In-Reply-To: <000624211802.2620014a@trailing-edge.com> from Tim Shoppa at "Jun 24, 2000 9:18: 2 pm" Message-ID: <200006250852.SAA20841@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> In article by Tim Shoppa: > But what do I do next? There's a bunch of 5120-byte-record files still > on the tape, and the "/bin" on the root filesystem doesn't have "tar" or > "restor". It *does* have cpio, and I think that's what I want to use. So > what's the next step? >From the PDP-11 SysIII in the archive, the files are cpio archives. The /usr/src/man/docs/setup file explains what to do next. It's in nroff format, but I don't know what macro switch to use to print it out correctly. I'll send it in a separate e-mail to avoid clogging up the list. Warren From tfb at cley.com Fri Jun 30 02:17:16 2000 From: tfb at cley.com (Tim Bradshaw) Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 17:17:16 +0100 (BST) Subject: [pups] 11/23 and other qbus machines Message-ID: <14683.30348.236685.247157@cley.com> I'm maybe going to acquire an 11/23. It looks like this is kind of small for running v7 and/or 2.11 as it has no split I/D (it does have an MMU in it but only an 18-bit one I think). How similar is the physical hardware (card cage I mean really) of this to things like 11/73,11/83? I'm wondering if I might one day be able to acquire a card-set from something bigger and install it in the same rack, my logic being that cards are a lot easier to get from far away than racks, and this machine is only a few miles away. Thanks --tim Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA05724 for pups-liszt; Sat, 1 Jul 2000 21:07:47 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From rdkeys at unity.ncsu.edu Thu Jun 1 05:18:41 2000 From: rdkeys at unity.ncsu.edu (rdkeys at unity.ncsu.edu) Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 15:18:41 -0400 (EDT) Subject: What to look for in a PDP machine? Message-ID: <200005311918.PAA23647@uni03du.unity.ncsu.edu> Interesting, there may be a PDPsomethingorother machine come available in surplus here. A quick glance at it showed it to be in a 1/2 height rack, with some custom name that meant nothing to me. But, it had two rack cabinets about 6 inches high each, with definite looking DEC cards, 4 wide cards, with an interconnecting cable between the two cases. The thing had a half gig scsi drive and scsi tape (60 or 150mb). Alas, I was able only to make a quick glance at it, before I had to leave. What might such a critter actually be? It had half a dozen RS232 terminal lines out the back, and a wyse terminal sitting on top of the case. It is not the kind of thing the PeeCee mongers are going to dive into, so it might go for a song if I wait a couple of weeks. It was not DEC badged, but definitely had what I would interpret as DEC boards inside. Bob From rdkeys at unity.ncsu.edu Thu Jun 1 05:50:10 2000 From: rdkeys at unity.ncsu.edu (rdkeys at unity.ncsu.edu) Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 15:50:10 -0400 (EDT) Subject: What to look for in a PDP machine? In-Reply-To: <200005311918.PAA23647@uni03du.unity.ncsu.edu> from "rdkeys@unity.ncsu.edu" at May 31, 2000 03:18:41 PM Message-ID: <200005311950.PAA25124@uni02du.unity.ncsu.edu> > Interesting, there may be a PDPsomethingorother machine come available in > surplus here. A quick glance at it showed it to be in a 1/2 height rack, > with some custom name that meant nothing to me. But, it had two rack > cabinets about 6 inches high each, with definite looking DEC cards, > 4 wide cards, with an interconnecting cable between the two cases. > The thing had a half gig scsi drive and scsi tape (60 or 150mb). > Alas, I was able only to make a quick glance at it, before I had to > leave. What might such a critter actually be? It had half a dozen > RS232 terminal lines out the back, and a wyse terminal sitting on top > of the case. It is not the kind of thing the PeeCee mongers are going > to dive into, so it might go for a song if I wait a couple of weeks. > It was not DEC badged, but definitely had what I would interpret as > DEC boards inside. Revisitation of the thing (my curiosity got the better of me and it was only a couple blocks away), yields some more info. A tag on the back says it is a scsi upgrade for a Digital Bright V. The ID plate says it is a Model BF-111/64. Examination of the cards indicated it was full of Perception Technologies cards rather than DEC cards, with what looks like modem transformers on them (10 cards and 80 ports?). Is this a telephone system of some sort? The drive cabinet had a panel on it with: RDY 1 WP RDY 0 WP HALT RESTART DCOK RUN buttons on it. That seems DECish. The rest, I dunno. Anyone have any ideas as to what it might be? Thanks Bob Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA79679 for pups-liszt; Thu, 1 Jun 2000 06:01:29 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From SHOPPA at trailing-edge.com Thu Jun 1 06:00:03 2000 From: SHOPPA at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 16:00:03 -0400 Subject: What to look for in a PDP machine? Message-ID: <000531160003.202005cb@trailing-edge.com> >The drive cabinet had a panel on it with: > > RDY 1 WP > RDY 0 WP > HALT RESTART > DCOK RUN > >buttons on it. That seems DECish. It sounds like a BA23, the DEC standard 8-slot Q-bus chassis. >Anyone have any ideas as to what it might be? Q-bus CPU's can be anything from a PDP-11/03 up to a Microvax, and even some third-party CPU's with odd things like 68000's and Z80's on them. You really gotta look in the CPU box and find the CPU board to determine what it is. The badge on the front of the BA23 may bear no relation to what's installed in it. If it is an -11, it's very likely an 11/73, /83 or 11/93, possibly a 11/23. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa at trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA79693 for pups-liszt; Thu, 1 Jun 2000 06:05:52 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From andy.sporner at networkengines.com Thu Jun 1 06:01:37 2000 From: andy.sporner at networkengines.com (Andy Sporner) Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 16:01:37 -0400 Subject: What to look for in a PDP machine? Message-ID: <8D18C4F9CBA1D311900F00A0C990C97F67C896@neimail.networkengines.com> Could be any number of things... The cable is probably a bus connector and the cabinet in the other rack is an expansion cabinet. What you are looking at could be a PDP 11/05 (I used to have one), although since you didn't mention there being a row of switches across the front, probably not. There are so many different possibilities. If you could describe the front of the boxes that are in the rack it would be very helpful. The PDP 11 possibilities and fit in a 5 1/4" (half box) would be a pdp 11/05 (with a row of white keys (16 of them), a pdp 11/23 (which is mostly white with 3 white keys in a small inset area) and others that might have a rotary switch or perhaps a telephone-like keypad). Otherwise I would wonder if it is even a DEC machine... If it has an orange lighted rocker switch it might be any number of later Q-BUS machines.... (and probably so if this has a SCSI device). Andy > -----Original Message----- > From: rdkeys at unity.ncsu.edu [mailto:rdkeys at unity.ncsu.edu] > Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2000 3:19 PM > To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au > Cc: rdkeys at unity.ncsu.edu > Subject: What to look for in a PDP machine? > > > Interesting, there may be a PDPsomethingorother machine come > available in > surplus here. A quick glance at it showed it to be in a 1/2 > height rack, > with some custom name that meant nothing to me. But, it had two rack > cabinets about 6 inches high each, with definite looking DEC cards, > 4 wide cards, with an interconnecting cable between the two cases. > The thing had a half gig scsi drive and scsi tape (60 or 150mb). > Alas, I was able only to make a quick glance at it, before I had to > leave. What might such a critter actually be? It had half a dozen > RS232 terminal lines out the back, and a wyse terminal sitting on top > of the case. It is not the kind of thing the PeeCee mongers are going > to dive into, so it might go for a song if I wait a couple of weeks. > It was not DEC badged, but definitely had what I would interpret as > DEC boards inside. > > Bob > > > Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA80887 for pups-liszt; Thu, 1 Jun 2000 10:26:51 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From wkt at cs.adfa.edu.au Thu Jun 1 10:25:34 2000 From: wkt at cs.adfa.edu.au (Warren Toomey) Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 10:25:34 +1000 (EST) Subject: Future Direction for PUPS and UHS Message-ID: <200006010025.KAA49471@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> All, A discussion has started up on the PUPS volunteers list about the future direction we should take in terms of the PUPS Archive. For those people new to this list, here's a bit of background. Originally I set up the PDP-11 UNIX Preservation Society, the mailing list and the Archive as that was my interest. Since then, we've attracted people with interests in other Unixes, such as the 4BSDs, and other hardware platforms such as the Vax, the 68k Suns etc. A while back, I changed the charter of the mailing list to encompass any Unix-related questions, epecially to those systems which are now treated as `ancient' by the mainstream, even if they are being maintained (e.g 2.11BSD and the Quasijarus project). I also tried to create an umbrella organisation, the Unix Heritage Society (http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/TUHS/), which would allow a number of groups like PUPS and Quasijarus to form, and so that we could co-ordinate their efforts. I must admit I haven't put much effort into this idea. Now, the PUPS Archive (PUPS in name, but it contains lots more than PDP-11 stuff) is accumulating more and more stuff. Some people want to see a mainly PDP-11 archive, other want to try and archive everything before it goes off to /dev/null. So, I want to survey the mailing list here for ideas about the charter of the Unix Heritage Society, and a way of setting up one or multiple archives, mailing lists, web pages etc. as I originally envisioned. Questions: - should we keep one archive, or have multiple archives? - if one, what structure (divisions on platforms, on vendors etc.) - if you have a keen interest in one platform/system, would you consider becoming the leader of an interest group that could sit under the Unix Heritage Society umbrella? - do you want to set up and maintain a more specific archive, mailing list, web site, that the Unix Heritage Society could point to? - do you want this current mailing list to stay ``all-encompassing'', or would you rather have more specific lists? One final comment before you answer. There's a very diverse bunch of people on this mailing list, some with strong opinions. Please be prepared to accept someone's comments as what they want, don't tell them that they are wrong, but let us know what you'd like to see. Many thanks, Warren [ now stands back for the deluge! ] Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA84679 for pups-liszt; Fri, 2 Jun 2000 02:56:00 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From wkb at chello.nl Fri Jun 2 02:53:57 2000 From: wkb at chello.nl (Wilko Bulte) Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 18:53:57 +0200 Subject: Future Direction for PUPS and UHS In-Reply-To: <200006010025.KAA49471@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>; from wkt@cs.adfa.edu.au on Thu, Jun 01, 2000 at 10:25:34AM +1000 References: <200006010025.KAA49471@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Message-ID: <20000601185357.E99044@freebie.wbnet> On Thu, Jun 01, 2000 at 10:25:34AM +1000, Warren Toomey wrote: > So, I want to survey the mailing list here for ideas about the charter of > the Unix Heritage Society, and a way of setting up one or multiple archives, > mailing lists, web pages etc. as I originally envisioned. > > Questions: > - should we keep one archive, or have multiple archives? Multiple. > - if one, what structure (divisions on platforms, on vendors etc.) I'd distinguish by CPU / machine / vendor. Eg. PDP, VAX, Sun68k, etc. Maybe one should also distinguish by source code / binary-only. People like David are mostly interested in the sources, which I think makes good sense. But if you find yourself with an old box a binary kit sure beats no OS at all. > - do you want this current mailing list to stay ``all-encompassing'', > or would you rather have more specific lists? Depends on the traffic. One could argue a generic 'announce' list and a set of platform dependent lists would be best. But maybe it is too early to nail this down. > One final comment before you answer. There's a very diverse bunch of > people on this mailing list, some with strong opinions. Please be prepared > to accept someone's comments as what they want, don't tell them that they > are wrong, but let us know what you'd like to see. > > Many thanks, > Warren > > [ now stands back for the deluge! ] ;-) -- Wilko Bulte FreeBSD, the power to serve http://www.freebsd.org From wkt at cs.adfa.edu.au Sat Jun 3 11:58:50 2000 From: wkt at cs.adfa.edu.au (Warren Toomey) Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2000 11:58:50 +1000 (EST) Subject: Warren's Position on Future of PUPS/TUHS Message-ID: <200006030158.LAA08504@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Hi all, Well I've had a few comments back from people about the future of things on the PUPS & TUHS front. I've sat down & knocked up a short proposal which I'd be happy with. The overarching goal is to give everybody what they want :-) Anyway, send me comments and suggestions, or plain old disagreements! Thanks, Warren A Discussion Paper on The Future of PUPS, TUHS and the Archive ============================================================== Policy ------ The PDP-11 Unix Preservation Society (PUPS) goes back to being a group specifically focussed on the versions of Unix for the PDP-11 platform. The Unix Heritage Society (TUHS) will be an umbrella group to support efforts to preserve or maintain all versions of Unix that are no longer considered to be mainstream. The type of support is outlined below. Mechanism --------- The pups at minnie mailing list will remain an ``all-encompassing'' mailing list for those people who are active in, or interested in, the aims of the Unix Heritage Society. It will be renamed to be tuhs at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au If enough people request it, a PUPS-specific mailing list will be set up. As part of TUHS aim of support, mailing lists on minnie can be set up for those groups who wish to come under the TUHS umbrella. One or more people from each group will be the list maintainer. If the information is not huge, minnie can offer web space for these groups, too. I'm already doing this for the Quasijarus project. The PUPS Archive will be renamed `The Unix Heritage Archive'. The top-level will contain files & information that is generic. There will be sublevels in the form platform/vendor/version. We might need some other categories for multi-platform systems like the 4BSDs. As an example, nearly all of the current archive will move under a PDP-11/ directory. But directories like Applications/ and Lists/ will stay where they are. If possible and where there are volunteers, each section of the archive will be maintained by its own maintainer. Minnie will provide disk space for all sections, so that there is a `one-stop' place to keep things. However, some groups may want to maintain a separate archive & existence. In this case, TUHS will set up pointers to their efforts. Volunteers & Mirrors -------------------- Some of the existing volunteers and archive mirror maintainers may not wish to maintain a copy of the full TUHS archive. That's their perogative. In fact, it might be useful to `name' each section of the full archive. For example, someone might only want to mirror the VAX section. Perhaps this can be called the VAX Unix Archive. I can modify the mechanism of ordering archive copies so that: + specific volunteers can nominate which archive sections they carry + requesters can order specific sections, or all, and find out how big each section is + requests will only be sent to those volunteers who can do them Copyright & License Issues -------------------------- At present, most things in the archive are protected by licenses and/or copyright. This probably isn't going to change soon. The current mechanisms to ensure access by license holders will be preserved. Given the aims of TUHS, I am prepared to keep in the archive anything that is Unix-related for antiquated or non-mainstream systems. We may not be able to release some of this due to license or copyright reasons. In that case, it will be kept hidden away in the archive until it can be released. It won't be mirrored or be available for copying in any way until that time. A Personal Note --------------- I'd like to maintain the PDP-11 archive, and initially do the TUHS stuff (including web pages, mailing lists, top-level of the archive). I'll set up platform-specific (or other-specific) levels as long as there is someone who will volunteer to maintain that area, and any web pages and mailing lists associated with them. It would also be a good idea to have an understudy or two in the wings, just in case I get hit by a bus or something. Conclusion ---------- I'm sure there are other issues (especially implementation ones) that I've missed above, but hopefully you get the general idea of my proposal for future direction of PUPS and TUHS. Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA97124 for pups-liszt; Sat, 3 Jun 2000 18:00:42 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From robin at ruffnready.co.uk Sat Jun 3 17:57:30 2000 From: robin at ruffnready.co.uk (Robin Birch) Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2000 08:57:30 +0100 Subject: Warren's Position on Future of PUPS/TUHS In-Reply-To: <200006030158.LAA08504@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> References: <200006030158.LAA08504@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Message-ID: In message <200006030158.LAA08504 at henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>, Warren Toomey writes >Hi all, > Well I've had a few comments back from people about the future of >things on the PUPS & TUHS front. I've sat down & knocked up a short >proposal which I'd be happy with. The overarching goal is to give everybody >what they want :-) Anyway, send me comments and suggestions, or plain old >disagreements! > >Thanks, > Warren > Sounds basically ok to me Robin > > A Discussion Paper on The Future of PUPS, TUHS and the Archive > ============================================================== > >Policy >------ > >The PDP-11 Unix Preservation Society (PUPS) goes back to being a group >specifically focussed on the versions of Unix for the PDP-11 platform. > >The Unix Heritage Society (TUHS) will be an umbrella group to support >efforts to preserve or maintain all versions of Unix that are no longer >considered to be mainstream. The type of support is outlined below. > >Mechanism >--------- > >The pups at minnie mailing list will remain an ``all-encompassing'' mailing >list for those people who are active in, or interested in, the aims of the >Unix Heritage Society. It will be renamed to be tuhs at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au >If enough people request it, a PUPS-specific mailing list will be set up. > >As part of TUHS aim of support, mailing lists on minnie can be set up >for those groups who wish to come under the TUHS umbrella. One or more >people from each group will be the list maintainer. > >If the information is not huge, minnie can offer web space for these >groups, too. I'm already doing this for the Quasijarus project. > >The PUPS Archive will be renamed `The Unix Heritage Archive'. The top-level >will contain files & information that is generic. There will be sublevels >in the form platform/vendor/version. We might need some other categories >for multi-platform systems like the 4BSDs. As an example, nearly all of the >current archive will move under a PDP-11/ directory. But directories like >Applications/ and Lists/ will stay where they are. > >If possible and where there are volunteers, each section of the archive >will be maintained by its own maintainer. Minnie will provide disk space >for all sections, so that there is a `one-stop' place to keep things. >However, some groups may want to maintain a separate archive & existence. >In this case, TUHS will set up pointers to their efforts. > > >Volunteers & Mirrors >-------------------- > >Some of the existing volunteers and archive mirror maintainers may not >wish to maintain a copy of the full TUHS archive. That's their perogative. >In fact, it might be useful to `name' each section of the full archive. >For example, someone might only want to mirror the VAX section. Perhaps >this can be called the VAX Unix Archive. > >I can modify the mechanism of ordering archive copies so that: > > + specific volunteers can nominate which archive sections they carry > + requesters can order specific sections, or all, and find out how > big each section is > + requests will only be sent to those volunteers who can do them > > >Copyright & License Issues >-------------------------- > >At present, most things in the archive are protected by licenses and/or >copyright. This probably isn't going to change soon. The current mechanisms >to ensure access by license holders will be preserved. > >Given the aims of TUHS, I am prepared to keep in the archive anything that >is Unix-related for antiquated or non-mainstream systems. We may not >be able to release some of this due to license or copyright reasons. In >that case, it will be kept hidden away in the archive until it can be >released. It won't be mirrored or be available for copying in any way >until that time. > >A Personal Note >--------------- > >I'd like to maintain the PDP-11 archive, and initially do the TUHS stuff >(including web pages, mailing lists, top-level of the archive). I'll set >up platform-specific (or other-specific) levels as long as there is someone >who will volunteer to maintain that area, and any web pages and mailing >lists associated with them. > >It would also be a good idea to have an understudy or two in the wings, >just in case I get hit by a bus or something. > >Conclusion >---------- > >I'm sure there are other issues (especially implementation ones) that >I've missed above, but hopefully you get the general idea of my proposal >for future direction of PUPS and TUHS. ____________________________________________________________________ Robin Birch robin at ruffnready.co.uk M1ASU/2E0ARJ/M5ABD Old computers and radios always welcome From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Tue Jun 6 08:46:46 2000 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de) Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 00:46:46 +0200 (CEST) Subject: 4.3BSD-Reno install on MicroVAX II Message-ID: <200006052246.AAA20067@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Hi. Today I tried to install 4.3BSD-Reno on a MicroVAX II. The machine has 13MB RAM, DHV11, TK50, DELQA, one RD53 with RQDX3 and a Sigma DLV11-J clone. I created a boot tape using a netbooted NetBSD 1.4.2 on this machine. I dd-ed "stand", "miniroot" and "rootdump" onto a tape with the blocksizes listed in the file "Rick_Copeland_Note". I also used "maketape" from the 2.11BSD distribution. >>> b mua0 2..1..0.. ?06 HLT INST PC = 00074C1E >>> Every time the same. :-( Do I make a mistake? Is my hardware not supported? Is there a other way to get 4.3BSD-Reno instaled? (Puting a disklabel, ffs and data with NetBSD onto the disk, but how to boot?) ??? -- tschüß, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA11618 for pups-liszt; Tue, 6 Jun 2000 10:17:02 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG Tue Jun 6 10:14:51 2000 From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov) Date: Mon, 5 Jun 00 19:14:51 CDT Subject: 4.3BSD-Reno install on MicroVAX II Message-ID: <0006060014.AA12823@ivan.Harhan.ORG> jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de wrote: > Today I tried to install 4.3BSD-Reno on a MicroVAX II. The machine has > 13MB RAM, DHV11, TK50, DELQA, one RD53 with RQDX3 and a Sigma DLV11-J > clone. 4.3BSD-Reno is spoiled and bloated, and won't fit on an RD53. The true 4.3BSD, however, 4.3BSD-Quasijarus, will. Go to http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/ to learn about the project and subscribe to its mailing list, then ask any further questions there. -- Michael Sokolov Harhan Engineering Laboratory Public Service Agent International Free Computing Task Force International Engineering and Science Task Force 615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY STE #4 DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA Phone: +1-214-824-7693 (Harhan Eng Lab office) E-mail: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (ARPA TCP/SMTP) (UUCP coming soon) Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA11891 for pups-liszt; Tue, 6 Jun 2000 11:09:01 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From emu at ecubics.com Tue Jun 6 11:12:19 2000 From: emu at ecubics.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2000 19:12:19 -0600 Subject: profesional 350 & 380 References: <200006052246.AAA20067@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <005b01bfcf54$49da50b0$5d01a8c0@p2350> Hi all, Any chance to get a unix running on them ? cheers & thanks, emanuel Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA12552 for pups-liszt; Tue, 6 Jun 2000 13:52:45 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From djenner at halcyon.com Tue Jun 6 13:50:14 2000 From: djenner at halcyon.com (David C. Jenner) Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2000 20:50:14 -0700 Subject: profesional 350 & 380 References: <200006052246.AAA20067@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <005b01bfcf54$49da50b0$5d01a8c0@p2350> Message-ID: <393C74F6.A19267C0@halcyon.com> There are at least two *NIXes that run on the Pro. There are apparently patches for 2.9BSD available that allow that version to run on the Pro. I don't have any experience with that. There are two versions of Venix that run on the Pro. 1) Venix/Pro came directly from Venturecom. It exists in Version 1 and Version 2. 2) Pro/Venix came from DEC, but was a slight rework of Venix originally from Venturecom. I.e., DEC worked over Venix/Pro and issued a version itself called Pro/Venix. Venix/Pro versions 1 and 2 are available from the archives at ftp.update.uu.se. This means, ostensibly, that Venix/Pro is in the "public domain". Pro/Venix could also be in the public domain, subject to the Ancient Unix License, since it originates from Version 7 and System III from AT&T. Bob Supnick, who was at DEC, once stated he saw no reason why it couldn't be a part of the PUPS archive under the AU License. I have an incomplete set of Pro/Venix. A couple of the floppies are bad. I would like to find a copy of Pro/Venix that is installable, as it is more flexible than Venix/Pro. If anyone out there has any Pro/Venix floppies, I'd be grateful to hear about it. Thanks, Dave emanuel stiebler wrote: > > Hi all, > > Any chance to get a unix running on them ? > > cheers & thanks, > emanuel Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA12967 for pups-liszt; Tue, 6 Jun 2000 16:04:09 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From bqt at Update.UU.SE Tue Jun 6 16:01:20 2000 From: bqt at Update.UU.SE (Johnny Billquist) Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 08:01:20 +0200 (MET DST) Subject: profesional 350 & 380 In-Reply-To: <005b01bfcf54$49da50b0$5d01a8c0@p2350> Message-ID: On Mon, 5 Jun 2000, emanuel stiebler wrote: > Hi all, > > Any chance to get a unix running on them ? There is Venix. I even think it's free now... Johnny Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at update.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA13672 for pups-liszt; Tue, 6 Jun 2000 18:40:07 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Tue Jun 6 18:36:49 2000 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de) Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 10:36:49 +0200 (CEST) Subject: 4.3BSD-Reno install on MicroVAX II In-Reply-To: <0006060014.AA12823@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Message-ID: <200006060836.KAA24484@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On 6 Jun, Michael Sokolov wrote: > 4.3BSD-Reno is spoiled and bloated, This is what I was waiting for. ;-) > and won't fit on an RD53. I have a Dilog DQ686 MCSP ESDI controler with three 320MB disks hany... And a QD33 with two 9" 940MB SMD disks. But these disks are nor very hany. ;-) > The true 4.3BSD however, 4.3BSD-Quasijarus, will. Hmm. [jkunz at MissSophie 4.3BSD-Quasijarus0a]$ file stand.Z stand.Z: data [jkunz at MissSophie 4.3BSD-Quasijarus0a]$ uncompress -c stand.Z > /bigtmp/tmp/stand uncompress: stand.Z: Inappropriate file type or format The same for 4.3BSD-Quasijarus0. This is my local PUPS / TUHS archive mirror, rsynced last week. MissSophie is a i386 box with NetBSD 1.4.2. > Go to > > http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/ Been there, sounds good, but see above... An other reason was: I wanted to install some "original" CSRG stuff. So I took 4.3BSD-Reno. The version in the archive is complete and supports my CPU/disk/tape. -- tschüß, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA14832 for pups-liszt; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 00:13:36 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From allisonp at world.std.com Wed Jun 7 00:11:23 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp at world.std.com) Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 10:11:23 -0400 (EDT) Subject: profesional 350 & 380 In-Reply-To: <393C74F6.A19267C0@halcyon.com> Message-ID: > I have an incomplete set of Pro/Venix. A couple of > the floppies are bad. I would like to find a copy > of Pro/Venix that is installable, as it is more > flexible than Venix/Pro. If anyone out there has > any Pro/Venix floppies, I'd be grateful to hear about > it. > I thought this one was up on uu.se site. I got my copy from there years ago. Allison Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA15060 for pups-liszt; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 00:50:13 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG Wed Jun 7 00:47:53 2000 From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov) Date: Tue, 6 Jun 00 09:47:53 CDT Subject: 4.3BSD-Reno install on MicroVAX II Message-ID: <0006061447.AA13729@ivan.Harhan.ORG> jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de wrote: > [jkunz at MissSophie 4.3BSD-Quasijarus0a]$ file stand.Z=20 > stand.Z: data > [jkunz at MissSophie 4.3BSD-Quasijarus0a]$ uncompress -c stand.Z > /bigtmp/t= > mp/stand > uncompress: stand.Z: Inappropriate file type or format See http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/compress.html > An other reason was: I wanted > to install some "original" CSRG stuff. So I took 4.3BSD-Reno. 4.3BSD-Quasijarus is more original CSRG than 4.3BSD-Reno. Reno doesn't follow the True UNIX line of V1 thru V7 thru 4.3BSD, Quasijarus does. Reno breaks all traditional CSRG ideology and is not CSRG in any way other than having been built in Evans Hall. 4.3BSD-Quasijarus hasn't been built in Evans Hall, but is CSRG in every other way. -- Michael Sokolov Harhan Engineering Laboratory Public Service Agent International Free Computing Task Force International Engineering and Science Task Force 615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY STE #4 DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA Phone: +1-214-824-7693 (Harhan Eng Lab office) E-mail: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (ARPA TCP/SMTP) (UUCP coming soon) Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA15719 for pups-liszt; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 02:19:28 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Wed Jun 7 02:16:53 2000 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de) Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 18:16:53 +0200 (CEST) Subject: 4.3BSD-Reno install on MicroVAX II In-Reply-To: <0006061447.AA13729@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Message-ID: <200006061616.SAA25525@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On 6 Jun, Michael Sokolov wrote: > See > http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/compress.html Ahhh! Why is there no note in the distribution directory? Ehhh? And where to get the code? Why is there no hint to it on the web page? Distributions/4bsd/components/compress.tar ??? The Web-Page says: "The strong compression code is available as a separate package in the BSD distribution archive (it is itself uncompressed)." But the Distributions/4bsd/4.3BSD-Quasijarus0a directory does not contain it. > 4.3BSD-Quasijarus is more original CSRG than 4.3BSD-Reno. Reno doesn't follow > the True UNIX line of V1 thru V7 thru 4.3BSD, Quasijarus does. [...] Is there some documentation available about this? -- tschüß, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id DAA16017 for pups-liszt; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 03:22:09 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG Wed Jun 7 03:19:48 2000 From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov) Date: Tue, 6 Jun 00 12:19:48 CDT Subject: 4.3BSD-Reno install on MicroVAX II Message-ID: <0006061719.AA14055@ivan.Harhan.ORG> jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de wrote: > Ahhh! Why is there no note in the distribution directory? OK, I'll add one. > Ehhh? And where to get the code? Why is there no hint to it on the web > page? Distributions/4bsd/components/compress.tar ??? Yes. > The Web-Page says: "The strong compression code is available as a > separate package in the BSD distribution archive (it is itself > uncompressed)." Hmm, I thought this was enough info for folks to figure out that components/compress.tar is the right tarball... > But the Distributions/4bsd/4.3BSD-Quasijarus0a directory > does not contain it. It's in the components directory, as opposed to the tape distribution directory for any particular release, because it's a grabbed-out BSD component that can be used with any release. The tape distribution directories have exactly what goes on the tape in the format it goes there, nothing more, nothing less. > > 4.3BSD-Quasijarus is more original CSRG than 4.3BSD-Reno. Reno doesn't follow > > the True UNIX line of V1 thru V7 thru 4.3BSD, Quasijarus does. > [...] > Is there some documentation available about this? I have something along these lines on the front page of the Quasijarus project. But sure, I should elaborate. I will when I respond to Warren's PUPS/TUHS reorg thing, which I'm still procrastinating on. :-) -- Michael Sokolov Harhan Engineering Laboratory Public Service Agent International Free Computing Task Force International Engineering and Science Task Force 615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY STE #4 DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA Phone: +1-214-824-7693 (Harhan Eng Lab office) E-mail: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (ARPA TCP/SMTP) (UUCP coming soon) Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id EAA16405 for pups-liszt; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 04:39:39 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From pzh at bia-bg.com Wed Jun 7 03:36:05 2000 From: pzh at bia-bg.com (Peter Zhivkov) Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 20:36:05 +0300 (EET DST) Subject: 4.3BSD-Reno install on MicroVAX II In-Reply-To: <0006061447.AA13729@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Message-ID: On Tue, 6 Jun 2000, Michael Sokolov wrote: > 4.3BSD-Quasijarus is more original CSRG than 4.3BSD-Reno. Reno doesn't follow > the True UNIX line of V1 thru V7 thru 4.3BSD, Quasijarus does. Reno breaks all > traditional CSRG ideology and is not CSRG in any way other than having been > built in Evans Hall. 4.3BSD-Quasijarus hasn't been built in Evans Hall, but is > CSRG in every other way. > people, please administer proper dosage...and do not let patients out of the boundaries of the asylum... > -- > Michael Sokolov Harhan Engineering Laboratory > Public Service Agent International Free Computing Task Force > International Engineering and Science Task Force > 615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY STE #4 > DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA > > Phone: +1-214-824-7693 (Harhan Eng Lab office) > E-mail: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (ARPA TCP/SMTP) (UUCP coming soon) > > P.S. please take me off the quasijarus list Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id FAA16600 for pups-liszt; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 05:10:46 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From jasomill at shaffstall.com Wed Jun 7 05:06:40 2000 From: jasomill at shaffstall.com (Jason T. Miller) Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 14:06:40 -0500 (EST) Subject: RX50 on RQDX3 on 2.11BSD In-Reply-To: <200005261407.AAA44464@minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au> Message-ID: Does anyone have experience using the RX50 floppy drive under 2.11BSD? I patched my FreeBSD kernel to handle RX50-format (80 cyl / 1 hd / 10 sec) diskettes, and noticed what seemed to be some sort of logical sector interleave (I also have hardware that does physical diskette reads / dumps, which assured me that I was getting the physical data off the disk in the order prescribed by the sector ID address marks); so, back to the old '11 for another round of test-disk making. My test data was simple enough: 512 bytes of 16-bit unsigned integer one, followed by 512 bytes of UINT16 2, usw. to UINT16 800; the easier to figure out the interleave, my precious... But I didna even get that far: observe (testrx50.img is 409,600 bytes): $ dd if=testrx50.img of=/dev/ra12a 800+0 records in 800+0 records out $ dd if=/dev/ra12a of=test 800+0 records in 800+0 records out $ diff testrx50.img test Binary files testrx50.img and test differ WHOA! This shouldn't happen, should it? In my late-night screwings-around, I recall the following Additional Facts: - Disks formatted with my PC floppy drive (using my kernel hacks - available on request [although until I get them working, no guarantees in re: their applicability to this or any other use; although I will attest that they won't make your kernel crash, at least not in 4.0-STABLE]) usually work okay, but sometimes give hard errors. - Disks formatted with the aforementioned Custom Hardware (a Shaffstall 6000 media conversion system, for the curious) for a) DEC Rainbow, b) RT-11, and c) DECmate II, seem to work flawlessly, at the physical level, but exhibit the below-mentioned quirks, logically. I'll note at this point that the media I'm using is 3M DS/DD 96tpi (_not_ high density), and disks formatted with the 6000 (RT-11) worked perfectly under RSX-11. Also: - The '11/2.11BSD never seem to write the first two sectors, although no error is returned to this effect; in fact, the data in sector three is from offset 1024 in the input data (0x0003 in the above example). Is this due to disk label support or something? The raw (character) device reports itself as read-only, even for root. - The remaining data sometimes (but not always; the specific circumstances involved I have not yet figured out conclusively -- physical interleave, preexisting data (!), or, something else?) carries an interleave, though I admit I haven't figured it out yet (meaning I haven't sat down and done it, not that I don't know how). Finally, I noticed there is no floppy-specific code in the MSCP driver, so all the gory details of floppy control (along with the gory details of the above) must be dealt with by the RQDX3. Anybody got documentation for this little slice 'o heaven? And, er, _really_ finally, is it really true that I can put any HD AT drive (well, any one that sports DS jumpers) on the RQDX3 and it'll function as an RX33? Does this void my field service contract, as my field service engineer is growing bored with staying up all night trying to understand funky DEC floppy hardware, as Parts currently has Guinness on a 180-day lead and it is a neccessary part of such an operation? Wonder what DEC would think of allowing (providing?) old PDP hardware docs for the archive? JasoMill From wkb at chello.nl Wed Jun 7 05:37:24 2000 From: wkb at chello.nl (Wilko Bulte) Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 21:37:24 +0200 Subject: RX50 on RQDX3 on 2.11BSD In-Reply-To: ; from jasomill@shaffstall.com on Tue, Jun 06, 2000 at 02:06:40PM -0500 References: <200005261407.AAA44464@minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au> Message-ID: <20000606213724.A1789@freebie.wbnet> On Tue, Jun 06, 2000 at 02:06:40PM -0500, Jason T. Miller wrote: > Wonder what DEC would think of allowing (providing?) old PDP hardware docs > for the archive? I'm afraid you'd have to ask Mentec. -- Wilko Bulte FreeBSD, the power to serve http://www.freebsd.org http://www.nlfug.nl Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id FAA16881 for pups-liszt; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 05:40:28 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From SHOPPA at trailing-edge.com Wed Jun 7 05:38:29 2000 From: SHOPPA at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 15:38:29 -0400 Subject: RX50 on RQDX3 on 2.11BSD Message-ID: <000606153829.20200e60@trailing-edge.com> >Does anyone have experience using the RX50 floppy drive under 2.11BSD? Yeah, sure. > I >patched my FreeBSD kernel to handle RX50-format (80 cyl / 1 hd / 10 sec) >diskettes, and noticed what seemed to be some sort of logical sector >interleave (I also have hardware that does physical diskette reads / in the order prescribed by the sector ID address marks); so, back to the >old '11 for another round of test-disk making. My test data was simple >enough: 512 bytes of 16-bit unsigned integer one, followed by 512 bytes of >UINT16 2, usw. to UINT16 800; the easier to figure out the interleave, my >precious... But I didna even get that far: observe (testrx50.img is >409,600 bytes): > > $ dd if=testrx50.img of=/dev/ra12a > 800+0 records in > 800+0 records out > $ dd if=/dev/ra12a of=test > 800+0 records in > 800+0 records out > $ diff testrx50.img test > Binary files testrx50.img and test differ > >WHOA! This shouldn't happen, should it? No, it shouldn't, but I'm confused as to where you're doing this at. Is this on FreeBSD? >Also: > - The '11/2.11BSD never seem to write the first two sectors, although >no error is returned to this effect; in fact, the data in sector three is >from offset 1024 in the input data (0x0003 in the above example). Is this >due to disk label support or something? The raw (character) device reports >itself as read-only, even for root. This must have something to do with the 2.11BSD disk label. The raw character device should be writable, can you try rm'ing the appropriate entries and remaking them with /dev/MAKEDEV? Also note that you may have to issue a disklabel command to make it possible for you to clobber the sectors where the disk label would otherwise live. > - The remaining data sometimes (but not always; the specific >circumstances involved I have not yet figured out conclusively -- physical >interleave, preexisting data (!), or, something else?) carries an >interleave, though I admit I haven't figured it out yet (meaning I haven't >sat down and done it, not that I don't know how). Yes, there is a physical<->logical block interleave on the RX50. See, for example, John Wilson's PUTR source code ( at ftp://ftp.dbit.com/pub/ibmpc/putr/ - assuming that ftp.dbit.com is back up by now!) for details and example code. >Finally, I noticed there is no floppy-specific code in the MSCP driver, so >all the gory details of floppy control (along with the gory details of the >above) must be dealt with by the RQDX3. That's true, the RQDX3 takes care of all that. If you look at any DEC Professional RX50 driver source code, you'll see the interleave code in there. For example, from RT-11's DZ.MAC sources: ; ; In standard RT-PC mode, a 2:1 interleave is used on a single track and ; a 2 sector skew is used across tracks. ("RT-PC" means "RT-11 on a DEC Professional", roughly!) and later, in a breathtaking example of tight driver interleave code (really, study it very closely, this is good stuff!): ; Normal I/O, convert block number to track and sector number and interleave ; ASL R2 ;Make word count unsigned byte count MOV (PC)+,R4 ;Loop count for 8 bit division .BYTE -7.,-10. ;Count becomes 0, -10 in high byte for later 50$: CMP #1280.,R5 ;Does 10 go into dividend (10.*200)? BHI 60$ ;Branch if not, C-bit clear ADD #-1280.,R5 ;Subtract 10 from dividend, and set C-bit ;(10.*200) 60$: ROL R5 ;Shift dividend and quotient INCB R4 ;Decrement loop count BLE 50$ ;Branch until divide done MOVB R5,R1 ;Copy track number 0:79, zero extend ADD R4,R5 ;Make sector < 0 MOV R1,R4 ;Copy track number ASL R1 ;Multiply by 2 (skew) 70$: SUB #10.,R1 ;Reduce track number * 2 MOD 10 BGT 70$ ; to find offset for this track, -10:0 MOV R1,TRKOFF ;Save it BR 100$ ;Go save parameters and start >And, er, _really_ finally, is it really true that I can put any HD AT >drive (well, any one that sports DS jumpers) on the RQDX3 and it'll >function as an RX33? Does this void my field service contract, as my field >service engineer is growing bored with staying up all night trying to >understand funky DEC floppy hardware, as Parts currently has Guinness on >a 180-day lead and it is a neccessary part of such an operation? The DEC RX33 floppy drive *is* a TEAC FD55GFR, also commonly found on PC-clones. Not just *any* HD AT floppy drive will work. Not only does it need to support the drive select jumpers, it also needs a bit more jumper configurability. The exact jumper settings vary depending on which exact FD55 model and revision you're using. As of a few months ago many of the jumper setting legends were decoded on the spec sheets you could get from TEAC's faxback service. The standard reference on this subject for the past decade has been Terry Kennedy's THIRD-PARTY-DISKS.TXT, available via anonymous FTP from ftp://ftp.spc.edu/third-party-disks.txt Since this subject comes up several times a year, would it be possible to link to the above document from somewhere in the PUPS archive, Warren? -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa at trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA16978 for pups-liszt; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 06:01:47 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From SHOPPA at trailing-edge.com Wed Jun 7 05:59:51 2000 From: SHOPPA at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 15:59:51 -0400 Subject: RX50 on RQDX3 on 2.11BSD Message-ID: <000606155951.20200e60@trailing-edge.com> >> Wonder what DEC would think of allowing (providing?) old PDP hardware docs >> for the archive? >I'm afraid you'd have to ask Mentec. No, Mentec doesn't (generally) own the rights to those. Mentec owns the rights to several former DEC OS's, most notably RT-11, RSX-11M, RSX-11M+, and RSTS/E, and many of the corresponding layered products. But they don't even own all the former DEC PDP-11 software; for instance, they don't have XXDP, DOS-11, PAL-11, etc... Of probable interest to many of the readers of this mailing list, Mentec is gearing up to offer a hobbyist license for the RT, RSX-11M, RSX-11M+, and RSTS/E. Note, in particular, that there is a "PDP-11 Hobbyist" link on Mentec's page at http://www.mentec.com/mentecinc/default.asp The link is currently disabled, but I expect it'll be active in the next week or so. Tim. Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA17027 for pups-liszt; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 06:14:35 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From rivie at teraglobal.com Wed Jun 7 06:12:14 2000 From: rivie at teraglobal.com (Roger Ivie) Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 14:12:14 -0600 Subject: RX50 on RQDX3 on 2.11BSD In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >Does anyone have experience using the RX50 floppy drive under 2.11BSD? I >patched my FreeBSD kernel to handle RX50-format (80 cyl / 1 hd / 10 sec) >diskettes, and noticed what seemed to be some sort of logical sector >interleave (I also have hardware that does physical diskette reads / >dumps, which assured me that I was getting the physical data off the disk >in the order prescribed by the sector ID address marks); Yes, there is a software interleave on RX50 diskettes. It also varies from system to system; I'm pretty certain PDP-11s and VAXes use the same software interleave (otherwise you couldn't exchange diskettes between a Pro350 and a MicroVAX II), but the DECmate II and III use a different software interleave. I have a memo here somewhere; it's getting a bit faded, perhaps I should do an underground HTML translation of it... Ah yes, here it is: DEC format supported by RQDX controller (this is 1984, so the only RQDX controller is RQDX1 at the time) used by Pro300, Micro-PDPs, MicroVAX I: - 10 sectors per track - 2 for 1 interleaving with 3 to 1 intercylinder skew - Physical track # = (LBN/10) + 1 with wraparound to track 0 [IOW, logical track 0 is physical track 1 and physical track 0 is logical track 79] - Physical sector # = X ( m ) where m = LBN mod 50, n = m/10, c = m mod 10: |c=0|c=1|c=2|c=3|c=4|c=5|c=6|c=7|c=8|c=9| ---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+ n=0| 01| 03| 05| 07| 09| 02| 04| 06| 08| 10| ---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+ n=1| 03| 05| 07| 09| 01| 04| 06| 08| 10| 02| ---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+ n=2| 05| 07| 09| 01| 03| 06| 08| 10| 02| 04| ---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+ n=3| 07| 09| 01| 03| 05| 08| 10| 02| 04| 06| ---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+ n=4| 09| 01| 03| 05| 07| 10| 02| 04| 06| 08| ---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+ DECmates and Rainbows don't use an intercylinder skew. Rainbows have the whacky logical track wrapping while DECmates don't. Yes, the RQDX3 is supposed to do this for you so you don't have to deal with it, unless you're foolishly trying to read DECmate or Rainbow disks on an RQDX3, at which point you need to carefully figure out how the lack of intercylinder skew on the DECmates interacts with the cylinder skew on the RQDX3. I know the RQDX3 implements the soft interleave because I did the firmware for Digital's SCSI floppy controller. I maintained that the device driver should deal with the interleave because it varies from format to format and the SCSI controller can't tell whether a particular RX50 is a DECmate RX50 or a VAX RX50. VMS didn't want to deal with the soft interleave because they don't have to on the RQDX3. I lost the fight and had to go back into the SCSI controller and rev the firmware to deal with the soft interleave. > $ dd if=testrx50.img of=/dev/ra12a > 800+0 records in > 800+0 records out > $ dd if=/dev/ra12a of=test > 800+0 records in > 800+0 records out > $ diff testrx50.img test > Binary files testrx50.img and test differ > >WHOA! This shouldn't happen, should it? No, it shouldn't, at least AFAIK. > In my late-night screwings-around, >I recall the following Additional Facts: > - Disks formatted with my PC floppy drive (using my kernel hacks - >available on request [although until I get them working, no guarantees in >re: their applicability to this or any other use; although I will attest >that they won't make your kernel crash, at least not in 4.0-STABLE]) >usually work okay, but sometimes give hard errors. This shouldn't be a problem. There are some potential difficulties involving the gap lengths; IIRC it's possible to format floppies that work on a PC but don't work with the HDC 9224 used on the RQDX3 because the 9224 requires a little bit more time to clean itself up in one of the gaps. Unfortunately, I don't recall the details; this was all a long time ago. I think it involves the gap between the header and data fields of a sector, but don't hold me to that. >I'll note at this point that the media I'm using is 3M DS/DD 96tpi (_not_ >high density), and disks formatted with the 6000 (RT-11) worked perfectly >under RSX-11. That's good. You should not be using high-density disks. >Finally, I noticed there is no floppy-specific code in the MSCP driver, so >all the gory details of floppy control (along with the gory details of the >above) must be dealt with by the RQDX3. Anybody got documentation for this >little slice 'o heaven? What sort of info are you looking for? Floppy drivers are a PITA to write and you should be happy the RQDX3 is hiding it from you. >And, er, _really_ finally, is it really true that I can put any HD AT >drive (well, any one that sports DS jumpers) on the RQDX3 and it'll >function as an RX33? The DEC drive changes speed based on the head write current signal of the interface. AT drives don't change speed; the data separator on an AT controller runs at 300KHz for low-density instead of 250KHz to deal with that little slice o' heaven. If you stick any HD AT drive on an RQDX3, you may be able to read high-density disks, but you probably will not be able to read low-density disks (i.e., RX50s). Oh yeah. Since the DEC drives change speed, that means there's an extra little slice o' heaven in the floppy support code to wait for the drive to change speed when the density changes. Are you _sure_ you want documentation for that little slice o' heaven? -- Roger Ivie rivie at teraglobal.com Not speaking for TeraGlobal Communications Corporation Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA17070 for pups-liszt; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 06:22:55 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From rdkeys at unity.ncsu.edu Wed Jun 7 06:20:52 2000 From: rdkeys at unity.ncsu.edu (rdkeys at unity.ncsu.edu) Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 16:20:52 -0400 (EDT) Subject: New Compress -- needs bigger info flag readme whatever In-Reply-To: <0006061719.AA14055@ivan.Harhan.ORG> from "Michael Sokolov" at Jun 06, 2000 12:19:48 PM Message-ID: <200006062020.QAA04660@uni00du.unity.ncsu.edu> > Hmm, I thought this was enough info for folks to figure out that > components/compress.tar is the right tarball... I had the same problems, so pleeze, put a biggie readme at all appropriate tree levels that has a 2 liner about the must use the ``new'' compress, and where exactly to find it. It was not quite intuitively obvious.....(:+}}...to my RT toy....until I unrolled it there. When will scsi development proceed.... I have this scsi VAX sitting........ Actually several VS3100, uV3100, things..... sitting......... They yearn for the simplicity of a plain 4.3BSD.....that runs fine on my old dinosaur RT toy.....(:+}}...... Anyone else running RT toyz? Thanks Bob Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA17081 for pups-liszt; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 06:23:41 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From rivie at teraglobal.com Wed Jun 7 06:21:22 2000 From: rivie at teraglobal.com (Roger Ivie) Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 14:21:22 -0600 Subject: RX50 on RQDX3 on 2.11BSD In-Reply-To: <000606153829.20200e60@trailing-edge.com> References: <000606153829.20200e60@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: Tim Shoppa said: >; >; In standard RT-PC mode, a 2:1 interleave is used on a single track and >; a 2 sector skew is used across tracks. Well, that disagrees with this memo right here which specifies a 3:1 interleave. It's hard to argue with code, though, and since I don't have my 8051 code for the SCSI floppy controller handy, I'll have to believe Tim on this one. -- Roger Ivie rivie at teraglobal.com Not speaking for TeraGlobal Communications Corporation Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA17116 for pups-liszt; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 06:32:29 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From rdkeys at unity.ncsu.edu Wed Jun 7 06:30:26 2000 From: rdkeys at unity.ncsu.edu (rdkeys at unity.ncsu.edu) Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 16:30:26 -0400 (EDT) Subject: RT confusedness.... In-Reply-To: <000606153829.20200e60@trailing-edge.com> from "Tim Shoppa" at Jun 06, 2000 03:38:29 PM Message-ID: <200006062030.QAA05591@uni00du.unity.ncsu.edu> > ; In standard RT-PC mode, a 2:1 interleave is used on a single track and > ; a 2 sector skew is used across tracks. > > ("RT-PC" means "RT-11 on a DEC Professional", roughly!) Gee, let's not forget the old IBM RT-PC dinosaur.....(:+}}... It was an entirely different beastie by the same name, that I am sure a few of us have played with over the years. It's a prime candidate for the UHS style fodder, if there were any interest in the thing besides with me. Anyone else aboard play with that dinosaur critter? ...... > Terry Kennedy's THIRD-PARTY-DISKS.TXT, available via anonymous FTP > from > > ftp://ftp.spc.edu/third-party-disks.txt > > Since this subject comes up several times a year, would it be possible > to link to the above document from somewhere in the PUPS archive, Warren? Yes, I would like to see Warren mirror such things, as space and utility dictate. Sometimes some redundancy in these forgotten lores is good. I am sure there are other such docs and texts of wisdom that collectively we should centralize in the archives, space, copyrights, permissions, etc., to be worked out in some way. At least, link to the urls, as long as the urls don't break. Bob Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id HAA17435 for pups-liszt; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 07:59:37 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Wed Jun 7 07:56:56 2000 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de) Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 23:56:56 +0200 (CEST) Subject: 4.3BSD-Reno install on MicroVAX II In-Reply-To: <0006061719.AA14055@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Message-ID: <200006062156.XAA26340@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On 6 Jun, Michael Sokolov wrote: >> Ahhh! Why is there no note in the distribution directory? > OK, I'll add one. A litle note like: Look at http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/compress.html to see how to decompress the files. in the FORMAT file can save much time if you are a Quasijarus beginner. Or a Link "HOWTO install Quasijarus" with a note about the compress issue, creating tapes, ... on the Quasijarus main page will do the job also. > Hmm, I thought this was enough info for folks to figure out that > components/compress.tar is the right tarball... Again. "Look at Distributions/4bsd/components/compress.tar" can save time... > It's in the components directory, as opposed to the tape distribution directory > for any particular release, because it's a grabbed-out BSD component that can > be used with any release. The tape distribution directories have exactly what > goes on the tape in the format it goes there, nothing more, nothing less. Ahh. I did not know this. ARGL! Now my TK50 died! Sh..., fu..., [other censored stuff] What have we learned now? Kids, do not dismount the optical positioner at the back of a TK50 drive for cleaning! GRMBL. OK. Tomorrow is a new day, new luck. I will mount the TK50Z in the MVII and I will give Quasijarus a try. If Quasijarus also fails, the BA23 box will stay inactive until I get a working, 2.11BSD capable PDP11 CPU. -- a guts Nächtle, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id HAA17429 for pups-liszt; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 07:59:15 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From wkt at cs.adfa.edu.au Wed Jun 7 07:57:16 2000 From: wkt at cs.adfa.edu.au (Warren Toomey) Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 07:57:16 +1000 (EST) Subject: Hardware info in Unix Archive In-Reply-To: <200006062030.QAA05591@uni00du.unity.ncsu.edu> from "rdkeys@unity.ncsu.edu" at "Jun 6, 2000 4:30:26 pm" Message-ID: <200006062157.HAA32202@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> In article by rdkeys at unity.ncsu.edu: > > Terry Kennedy's THIRD-PARTY-DISKS.TXT, available via anonymous FTP > > from > > > > ftp://ftp.spc.edu/third-party-disks.txt > > > > Since this subject comes up several times a year, would it be possible > > to link to the above document from somewhere in the PUPS archive, Warren? I'd prefer to not put things into the archive unless they were Unix-related. Notwithstanding that comment, if there's enough disk space, why not. However, it would have to be in an area which was marked as generic information. Ciao, Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA17544 for pups-liszt; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 08:25:16 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From wkt at cs.adfa.edu.au Wed Jun 7 08:23:20 2000 From: wkt at cs.adfa.edu.au (Warren Toomey) Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 08:23:20 +1000 (EST) Subject: Hardware info in Unix Archive In-Reply-To: <020401bfd004$d7ee0490$5d01a8c0@p2350> from emanuel stiebler at "Jun 6, 2000 4:16:14 pm" Message-ID: <200006062223.IAA32518@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> In article by emanuel stiebler: > > I'd prefer to not put things into the archive unless they were > Unix-related. > Why not an pointer to the ftp archive ? > If something changes there, we're updated. So we have to keep track of the > changes :-( Pointers would go on the web pages (that's easy). Real files in the Archive :-) As part of the division of things into system/platform-specific and Unix-generic areas, I'm updating the Unix Heritage Society web pages. A preview is at http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/tuhs/ We need more affiliated groups! Bob, you want to lead an IBM group? David, how about an encumbered BSD group? Minnie will provide web space, archive area, mail list as required. The web page above is the place to put pointers to hardware information and other useful stuff, unless that has already been done by an affiliated group. So start sending me URLs :-) The existing pups at minnie mail list will become the tuhs at minnie list. A new pups at minnie list will be created for PDP-11 specific stuff. Next week sometime. In a month say, I'll reorganise the structure of the PUPS Archive, and rename it as the Unix Archive. If you have mirrors, don't worry I'll e-mail out a shell script with lots of mkdir and mv commands in it :-) Cheers, Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA17685 for pups-liszt; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 08:51:22 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From wkt at cs.adfa.edu.au Wed Jun 7 08:49:14 2000 From: wkt at cs.adfa.edu.au (Warren Toomey) Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 08:49:14 +1000 (EST) Subject: VAX group in TUHS? In-Reply-To: <393D9CE9.533EFA0E@openecs.org> from chris at "Jun 7, 2000 2:52:57 am" Message-ID: <200006062249.IAA32738@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> In article by chris: > I really like to help starting a VAX Unix archive. My VAX11/750 is bored by > NetBSD and want's to try out some other "real" UNIX. > So this might be a great chance. > > Regards - Chris At present, Michael Sokolov looks after the 4BSD VAX section of the archive under the aegis of the Quasijarus project. Michael, do you want to continue to do this? Or should we separate the historical 4BSDs for someone to curate while you manage the ongoing Quasijarus work? Cheers, Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA17708 for pups-liszt; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 08:59:36 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From sms at moe.2bsd.com Wed Jun 7 08:45:02 2000 From: sms at moe.2bsd.com (Steven M. Schultz) Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 15:45:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: RX50 on RQDX3 on 2.11BSD Message-ID: <200006062245.PAA01871@moe.2bsd.com> Hi -- Wow, quite a bit of interest in 2.11 these days - I suppose I should get back into it (too many other projects, etc and so little time ;)) > From: "Jason T. Miller" > Does anyone have experience using the RX50 floppy drive under 2.11BSD? I > patched my FreeBSD kernel to handle RX50-format (80 cyl / 1 hd / 10 sec) Not for eons - the RX50 I had was so flakey (well, actually it finally got to the point it was declared broke) it was replaced with a 1.2mb 5.25" Teac "PC" drive). > $ dd if=testrx50.img of=/dev/ra12a > 800+0 records in > 800+0 records out > $ dd if=/dev/ra12a of=test > 800+0 records in > 800+0 records out > $ diff testrx50.img test > Binary files testrx50.img and test differ > > WHOA! This shouldn't happen, should it? In my late-night screwings-around, No, in fact I'd have expected an error on the first 'dd'. Using 'cmp -l' will show where the differences are. If they are only in the first couple sectors but the rest compare ok then I think I know what the problem might be. I'd also, not that it would make any difference (I hope), use the raw device for speed purposes (RX50 is slow enough as it is ;)): dd if=testrx50.img of=/dev/rra12a > - The '11/2.11BSD never seem to write the first two sectors, although > no error is returned to this effect; in fact, the data in sector three is > from offset 1024 in the input data (0x0003 in the above example). Is this > due to disk label support or something? The raw (character) device reports > itself as read-only, even for root. Indeed it is related to disklabel support. In the face of a missing or corrupt disklabel the kernel is supposed (and I think it is in this case) synthesize a label that spans the entire disk with the 'a' partition. I do not know why the first two sectors are not being written if the synthetic label is being used. It's probably a bug having to deal with not setting the "enable write for label area" when the fake label is being used. Sigh. I have a floppy drive on my 11/73 - I'll try to find time and play around before going on vacation in a couple weeks. The first sector should have been written (that's the boot block), the label sector is the 2nd sector and that's 'write protected' unless either an ioctl() is done or the 'disklabel' program is used to un-writeprotect it. Try doing a disklabel -W /dev/rra12a to enable writing the label sector. If that works then the problem lies in not setting that bit when a corrupt/missing label is seen. Normally this isn't necessary since filesystems are created on disks and they're not treated as raw output bitcontainers. Floppies are special in that 'raw' device usage is more common. > Finally, I noticed there is no floppy-specific code in the MSCP driver, so > all the gory details of floppy control (along with the gory details of the > above) must be dealt with by the RQDX3. Anybody got documentation for this Quite so. To the driver the RX50 is just another MSCP disk. Oh, for debugging purposes you can enable more or all of the MSCP messages with the 'sysctl' command: sysctl -w machdep.mscp.printf=X where X is a bitmask (at present only the first 4 bits are in use). Setting X to 15 will enable every printf the driver has. * Bit 0 = print/log all non successful response packets * Bit 1 = print/log datagram arrival * Bit 2 = print status of all response packets _except_ for datagrams * Bit 3 = enable debug/log statements not covered by one of the above See the pdpuba/ra.c sources for more details, and what printf/log statements are covered by which bit. Steven Schultz sms at moe.2bsd.com Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA17936 for pups-liszt; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 09:41:44 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG Wed Jun 7 09:39:23 2000 From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov) Date: Tue, 6 Jun 00 18:39:23 CDT Subject: VAX group in TUHS? Message-ID: <0006062339.AA14868@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Warren Toomey wrote: > At present, Michael Sokolov looks after the 4BSD VAX section of the > archive under the aegis of the Quasijarus project. Yes. > Michael, do you want to continue to do this? Yes. > Or should we separate the historical 4BSDs for > someone to curate while you manage the ongoing Quasijarus work? No, I do not and will not separate these. Warren, can we talk about all this sometime later, leaving the affected areas intact for now? I'm *really* swamped right now. -- Michael Sokolov Harhan Engineering Laboratory Public Service Agent International Free Computing Task Force International Engineering and Science Task Force 615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY STE #4 DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA Phone: +1-214-824-7693 (Harhan Eng Lab office) E-mail: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (ARPA TCP/SMTP) (UUCP coming soon) Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA19425 for pups-liszt; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 16:11:25 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From bqt at Update.UU.SE Wed Jun 7 16:09:07 2000 From: bqt at Update.UU.SE (Johnny Billquist) Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 08:09:07 +0200 (MET DST) Subject: RX50 on RQDX3 on 2.11BSD In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 6 Jun 2000, Jason T. Miller wrote: [...floppy stuff on 2.11 deleted...] > $ diff testrx50.img test > Binary files testrx50.img and test differ > > WHOA! This shouldn't happen, should it? Well... No... But... You later note that 2.11 don't write the first two sectors, even though it don't give you any errors. So, I'm not surprised by the result. the first 1K are probably very different. Try to compare everything after that 1K and see if that is the same. Johnny Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at update.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA21593 for pups-liszt; Thu, 8 Jun 2000 01:39:19 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Thu Jun 8 01:36:43 2000 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de) Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 17:36:43 +0200 (CEST) Subject: New Compress -- needs bigger info flag readme whatever In-Reply-To: <200006062020.QAA04660@uni00du.unity.ncsu.edu> Message-ID: <200006071536.RAA01882@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On 6 Jun, rdkeys at unity.ncsu.edu wrote: > When will scsi development proceed.... I have this scsi VAX sitting........ > Actually several VS3100, uV3100, things..... sitting......... NetBSD-current runs well on VAXstations 3100 and 4000m{60,90}. OK, it is no pure BSD in Michaels sense and it is not that lean. But it is a good OS, free, modern, ... -- tschüß, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA22104 for pups-liszt; Thu, 8 Jun 2000 02:55:02 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From jasomill at shaffstall.com Thu Jun 8 02:50:10 2000 From: jasomill at shaffstall.com (Jason T. Miller) Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 11:50:10 -0500 (EST) Subject: RX50 on RQDX3 on 2.11BSD In-Reply-To: Message-ID: After looking at the data, I'm not suprised, either -- I've proven, if nothing else, that the 'diff' command is not broken :) This command seek-whence was for illusutrative purposes; by far the strangest thing to me is the Interleave Problem. First R/W UNIX block device I've ever seen that's not bijective (to slightly abuse the term). -jtm On Wed, 7 Jun 2000, Johnny Billquist wrote: > > WHOA! This shouldn't happen, should it? > > Well... No... But... > > You later note that 2.11 don't write the first two sectors, even though it > don't give you any errors. So, I'm not surprised by the result. Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id DAA22172 for pups-liszt; Thu, 8 Jun 2000 03:20:49 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From jasomill at shaffstall.com Thu Jun 8 03:15:53 2000 From: jasomill at shaffstall.com (Jason T. Miller) Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 12:15:53 -0500 (EST) Subject: RX50 on RQDX3 on 2.11BSD In-Reply-To: <200006062245.PAA01871@moe.2bsd.com> Message-ID: > Wow, quite a bit of interest in 2.11 these days - I suppose I should > get back into it (too many other projects, etc and so little time ;)) It's the first PDP operating system I've enjoyed working with, and one of the coolest UNIX implementations I've had the pleasure of working with. Every programmer who writes 150MB bloatware should study it. > Not for eons - the RX50 I had was so flakey (well, actually it finally > got to the point it was declared broke) it was replaced with a 1.2mb > 5.25" Teac "PC" drive). I unearthed two Teac 55-G series floppy drives, and they're both broken (won't format w/verify) -- the RX50 isn't the only flakey floppy. I've got a few Toshibas and Matsushitas I'm gonna fool around with, though. Though I find that about 90% of what I learn about everything computer related involves one thing or another that doesn't work; so in a way I can thank DEC for screwball H/W. About 10 YA, I used a DECmate II with an RX50 on a daily basis, and had 0 problems; of course, I had preformatted DEC disks and no interchange (at the time I had two computers -- an Atari 130XE and DECmate II) > Using 'cmp -l' will show where the differences are. If they are only > in the first couple sectors but the rest compare ok then I think I > know what the problem might be. Some is, some ain't. Aside from the also-mentioned "interleave problem," whereby the RX50 seems to interleave output data (isn't the hardware supposed to take care of this, if it is indeed hardware interleave, though I'm 95% sure I formatted 1:1...yes, unless the RQDX3 is unlike _every_ floppy controller I've seen in the past ten years) > I do not know why the first two sectors are not being written if the > synthetic label is being used. It's probably a bug having to deal > with not setting the "enable write for label area" when the fake label > is being used. Sigh. I have a floppy drive on my 11/73 - I'll try > to find time and play around before going on vacation in a couple weeks. I, also, although I'm not going on vacation in the near future, and I don't have an 11/73 -- but, I suppose if I can find time to play with my PDP @ all (which I suppose I have -- it's now, courtesy of Network Address Translation and SLIP, not only connected to my Apartment Network, but also to the Internet. Now to find a Web browser that fits in 64K I space or segments well. Is CERN line-mode still being maintaned?), I'll work on this. I hope to be able to use the RX50 for sneakernet purposes, despite my network connection, as 19.2K is pretty damned slow, and while I'm excited at the prospect of diviplexing SLIP over all 40 ports on all five of my muxes, I'm somewhat less excited at the prospect of designing and coding it; besides, I only have three serial ports on my PC, and one's for the modem). Though Priority One is getting my LA75 working -- once again It Worked In RSX (much better than I did, I might add :). > Try doing a > > disklabel -W /dev/rra12a > > Oh, for debugging purposes you can enable more or all of the MSCP > messages with the 'sysctl' command: > > sysctl -w machdep.mscp.printf=X > I will. Thanks. I didn't even know 2.11 had 'sysctl'. Cool. -jtm Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id EAA22518 for pups-liszt; Thu, 8 Jun 2000 04:52:59 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From griffioena at psi.com Thu Jun 8 04:50:39 2000 From: griffioena at psi.com (Arno Griffioen) Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 20:50:39 +0200 (CEST) Subject: RT confusedness.... In-Reply-To: <200006062030.QAA05591@uni00du.unity.ncsu.edu> from "rdkeys@unity.ncsu.edu" at "Jun 6, 2000 04:30:26 pm" Message-ID: <200006071850.UAA26525@superluminal.usn.nl> > Gee, let's not forget the old IBM RT-PC dinosaur.....(:+}}... > It was an entirely different beastie by the same name, that I am sure > a few of us have played with over the years. It's a prime candidate for > the UHS style fodder, if there were any interest in the thing besides > with me. Anyone else aboard play with that dinosaur critter? Yup.. But only with 4.3BSD on it. The assembly mnemonics stil crack me up. Seems like IBM somehow misunderstood 'RISC' for Reduced Mnemonics. The comments inserted in assembly code by the C compiler gave some indication of the brokenness of the CPU.. Lots of NOP's added in several places with remarks like "Add NOPs, otherwise register contents will be wrong". But hey... Before that I was used to working with 40 students on a uVAX 3600 (which I now own and run :-), so to me these RT's were pretty darn quick! Still would like to get my grubby paws on one though. Somehow this collection of old UNIX machines is becoming an obsession :-) Bye, Arno. -- PSINetworks Europe Fax: +31-23-5699841 | One disk to rule them all, Siriusdreef 34 Tel: +31-23-5699840 | One disk to bind them, 2132WT Hoofddorp+--------------------------------+ One disk to hold the files The Netherlands | * Musical Interlude * | And in the darkness grind 'em ----------------+--------------------------------+------------------------------ We say Retribution, We say Vengeance is bliss, We say Revolution, With a Cast-Iron fist! (Megadeth, 'The Disintegrators') -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From jasomill at shaffstall.com Thu Jun 8 06:07:58 2000 From: jasomill at shaffstall.com (Jason T. Miller) Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 15:07:58 -0500 (EST) Subject: RQDX3 software interleave Message-ID: > Yes, the RQDX3 is supposed to do this for you so you don't have to deal > with it, ... I guess I should have sat down and thought about it, I never even considered the hardware doing software interleave (quite a dumb thing to do, IMHO, unless you want to sell preformatted diskettes for use in systems with widely varying performance characteristics; who would want to do that :). Thanks, Herr Ivie, for that insight. Also thanks to SMS for the disklabel enlightenment. I should have a workable solution soon, though doing the interleave code in 4.4BSD kernelland doesn't seem like much fun and would reduce the general applicability of the driver (I'd like to see what the FreeBSD committers would think when I suggest _that_!); I think I'll just write an "interleave filter" in userland and leave it at that. > What sort of info are you looking for? Floppy drivers are a PITA to write > and you should be happy the RQDX3 is hiding it from you. Don't get me wrong, I _am_ happy. I like smart hardware as long as it doesn't try to second-guess me; I'm a big fan of SCSI. Just a natural and (usually, but not always) healty curiousity. And I know how much fun floppy drivers are to write; one of the products developed by my employer (though before I was thus employed) was a disk conversion system. And we even used one of the more "intelligent" floppy controllers, an experimental TI 9909 that handled "pretty much everything" for you (as long as "pretty much everything" involved writing single-density IBM 8" diskettes -- reminds me of the line in Raising Arizona, when N. Cage asks the cashier if he has balloons in funny shapes and he replies: "if you think a circle is a funny shape"). So I have the source code to a floppy driver that handles almost any disk type imaginable (as long as the data rate isn't too high: 2.88MB disks zum beispiel), all written in assembler and PLM for an 8085; talk about tight code. Speaking of PITA device control, wasn't it the DEC RX02 that wrote address information in single density and data in DD? Once again, thanks for everyone for all the help. I'll have this thing working soon. -jtm Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA23073 for pups-liszt; Thu, 8 Jun 2000 06:56:27 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From rivie at teraglobal.com Thu Jun 8 06:54:01 2000 From: rivie at teraglobal.com (Roger Ivie) Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 14:54:01 -0600 Subject: RQDX3 software interleave In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > Speaking of PITA >device control, wasn't it the DEC RX02 that wrote address information in >single density and data in DD? Yes, it was. But it was usually done by the hardware (I suppose that would be microcode in the case of the RX02), so unless you wanted to do something foolish like read RX02 diskettes in your DD CP/M machine or format floppies you don't have to worry about it. -- Roger Ivie rivie at teraglobal.com Not speaking for TeraGlobal Communications Corporation Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id HAA23245 for pups-liszt; Thu, 8 Jun 2000 07:38:22 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From rdkeys at unity.ncsu.edu Thu Jun 8 07:36:19 2000 From: rdkeys at unity.ncsu.edu (rdkeys at unity.ncsu.edu) Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 17:36:19 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Newer BSD thingies....nice but then again.... In-Reply-To: <200006071536.RAA01882@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> from "jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de" at Jun 07, 2000 05:36:43 PM Message-ID: <200006072136.RAA29103@uni04du.unity.ncsu.edu> > > When will scsi development proceed.... I have this scsi VAX sitting........ > > Actually several VS3100, uV3100, things..... sitting......... > NetBSD-current runs well on VAXstations 3100 and 4000m{60,90}. OK, it > is no pure BSD in Michaels sense and it is not that lean. But it is a > good OS, free, modern, ... True, and I run about a dozen NetBSD critters (minor VAXen, MIPSen, Sun68ken, etc.) in my basement. But, I still do like the simple minded leanness of a 4.3BSD. I once sat down and loaded up 4.3Tahoe, 4.3Reno, 4.4, 4.4Lite2 (mostly) on my RT's, and you could really tell the difference as the bloat transcended out of the 4.3 arena. On a 12.5 mhz box, you can feel the difference (what about a MVII at its liesurely pace?). So, I do think it would be a reasonable effort to keep something like a tiny 4.3 system afloat for the older and the newer toyz. Whether or not it is practical, or we have the time to do that... who knows.... mebbie, at least for some historical play. I do like the new scsi drivers in NetBSD VAX, though... it makes the old toyz fly like the wind.....(:+}}... Bob Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id HAA23316 for pups-liszt; Thu, 8 Jun 2000 07:56:55 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From rdkeys at unity.ncsu.edu Thu Jun 8 07:54:44 2000 From: rdkeys at unity.ncsu.edu (rdkeys at unity.ncsu.edu) Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 17:54:44 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Hardware info in Unix Archive In-Reply-To: <200006062223.IAA32518@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> from "Warren Toomey" at Jun 07, 2000 08:23:20 AM Message-ID: <200006072154.RAA00453@uni04du.unity.ncsu.edu> > We need more affiliated groups! Bob, you want to lead an IBM group? > David, how about an encumbered BSD group? Minnie will provide web space, > archive area, mail list as required. What sort of interest do we have in doing something like this? IF the interest was there, I could probably make some time to chair an IBM RT related group. So far it seems about half a dozen folks were interested in the RT things. Let's see where it goes..... Bob Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA23361 for pups-liszt; Thu, 8 Jun 2000 08:05:58 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From apgarcia at hackaholic.org Thu Jun 8 07:58:58 2000 From: apgarcia at hackaholic.org (A. P. Garcia) Date: 07 Jun 2000 21:58:58 +0000 Subject: unix precursors Message-ID: I know that www.multicians.org is a nice web site devoted to Multics, but does anyone know where I can learn more about other precursors to unix? Thompson mentions that unix borrows heavily from CTSS. I think that Corbato wrote a book on this system, but that book seems nearly as rare as chicken teeth. I think he also wrote an earlier journal article on the system, which I imagine shouldn't be hard to locate. Finally, Thompson also mentions that fork() basically existed in its current form in the Berkeley Timesharing System. That is the one and only thing I have ever heard about this system. Anyone know where I can learn more? Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA23424 for pups-liszt; Thu, 8 Jun 2000 08:16:53 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From root at gits.dyndns.org Thu Jun 8 08:14:46 2000 From: root at gits.dyndns.org (Cyrille Lefevre) Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 00:14:46 +0200 (CEST) Subject: 4.3BSD-Reno install on MicroVAX II In-Reply-To: <200006060836.KAA24484@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> "from jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de at Jun 6, 2000 10:36:49 am" Message-ID: <200006072214.AAA04762@gits.dyndns.org> jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de wrote: > On 6 Jun, Michael Sokolov wrote: > > > 4.3BSD-Reno is spoiled and bloated, > This is what I was waiting for. ;-) > > > and won't fit on an RD53. > I have a Dilog DQ686 MCSP ESDI controler with three 320MB disks hany... > And a QD33 with two 9" 940MB SMD disks. But these disks are nor very > hany. ;-) > > > The true 4.3BSD however, 4.3BSD-Quasijarus, will. > Hmm. > > [jkunz at MissSophie 4.3BSD-Quasijarus0a]$ file stand.Z > stand.Z: data > [jkunz at MissSophie 4.3BSD-Quasijarus0a]$ uncompress -c stand.Z > /bigtmp/tmp/stand > uncompress: stand.Z: Inappropriate file type or format > > The same for 4.3BSD-Quasijarus0. This is my local PUPS / TUHS archive > mirror, rsynced last week. MissSophie is a i386 box with NetBSD 1.4.2. you have to use the "Quasijarus" compress which is, in the pups archive, Distributions/4bsd/components/compress.tar. > > Go to > > > > http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/ > > Been there, sounds good, but see above... An other reason was: I wanted > to install some "original" CSRG stuff. So I took 4.3BSD-Reno. The > version in the archive is complete and supports my CPU/disk/tape. Cyrille. -- home: mailto:clefevre at citeweb.net work: mailto:Cyrille.Lefevre at edf.fr Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA23490 for pups-liszt; Thu, 8 Jun 2000 08:23:41 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Thu Jun 8 08:21:04 2000 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de) Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 00:21:04 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Newer BSD thingies....nice but then again.... In-Reply-To: <200006072136.RAA29103@uni04du.unity.ncsu.edu> Message-ID: <200006072221.AAA02836@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On 7 Jun, rdkeys at unity.ncsu.edu wrote: > True, and I run about a dozen NetBSD critters Ahh. I thought that you did not know about the new (puh, it is more than 1/2 year old) developements in DMA SCSI on VAXstations... > But, I still do like the simple minded leanness of a 4.3BSD. ...as I do like the leanness of NetBSD on i386... I dont like this bloated, i386 centric wants-to-be-*ix from Finland... Hmmm. And my TK50 is broken so I can not get 4.3BSD on my MVII without slaughtering my TK50Z... :-( > I do like the new scsi drivers in NetBSD VAX, though... it makes the old > toyz fly like the wind.....(:+}}... Oh, yes. My VS4000m60 needs only 36 hours to go through a "make build". This is pure luxury. I think we are moving more and more away from the sbject of this list. EOT -- tschüß, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA23608 for pups-liszt; Thu, 8 Jun 2000 08:49:25 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG Thu Jun 8 08:46:55 2000 From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov) Date: Wed, 7 Jun 00 17:46:55 CDT Subject: Newer BSD thingies....nice but then again.... Message-ID: <0006072246.AA16781@ivan.Harhan.ORG> jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de wrote: > Oh, yes. My VS4000m60 needs only 36 hours to go through a "make build". > This is pure luxury.=20 And 4.3BSD-Quasijarus completes its make build on my CSRG dev mill, which is a KA655 (3.8 VUPs, whereas your KA46 is 12 VUPs), in a little under 4 hours. The GENERIC vmunix kernel is another 30 minutes. Long live Original UNIX in 4 capitals! Let's reopen the Soviet factories, build new 11/780s with the hammer and sickle on every chip, put the real UNIX on them, and send pee sea-raised revisionists to gulag! -- Michael Sokolov Harhan Engineering Laboratory Public Service Agent International Free Computing Task Force International Engineering and Science Task Force 615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY STE #4 DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA Phone: +1-214-824-7693 (Harhan Eng Lab office) E-mail: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (ARPA TCP/SMTP) (UUCP coming soon) Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA23628 for pups-liszt; Thu, 8 Jun 2000 08:52:47 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From enf at pobox.com Thu Jun 8 08:50:45 2000 From: enf at pobox.com (Eric Fischer) Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 17:50:45 -0500 (CDT) Subject: unix precursors In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200006072250.RAA82201@shell-1.enteract.com> > Thompson mentions that unix borrows heavily from CTSS. I think that > Corbato wrote a book on this system, but that book seems nearly as > rare as chicken teeth. I think he also wrote an earlier journal > article on the system, which I imagine shouldn't be hard to locate. The journal article you're thinking of is probably "An Experimental Time Sharing System" by Corbato, Merwin-Daggett, and Daley, which describes an early version of the system (where command arguments were still separated by vertical bars instead of spaces). AFIPS Conference Proceedings vol. 21, 1962. The book is _The Compatible Time-Sharing System: A User's Guide_, which was published in two editions in, I think, 1963 and 1965, by MIT Press. Both editions are in enough libraries you should be able to get them by interlibrary loan. The first edition is more booklike, the second is more like a collection of man pages. The Charles Babbage Institute has copies of some of the on-line updates to the manual (on paper) from after the second edition was published. You will see many similarities to Unix. The arguments to tar, for instance, come straight from the CTSS "ARCHIV" command. > Finally, Thompson also mentions that fork() basically existed in its > current form in the Berkeley Timesharing System. That is the one and > only thing I have ever heard about this system. Anyone know where I > can learn more? You can find out some things about it from Butler Lampson's "A User Machine in a Time-Sharing System," at http://www.research.microsoft.com/lampson/02-UserMachine/Abstract.html Dennis Ritchie cites a real manual for the system in the references for http://cm.bell-labs.com/cm/cs/who/dmr/hist.html but I haven't been able to locate a copy, even in the library at the University of California, Berkeley. I've read somewhere that the system is supposed to be similar to the PDP-1 time sharing system developed at MIT, but the only documentation I've located on that is Mario Bonghi's master's thesis, which seems to have been written before the hardware was even upgraded to be able to run the software it describes. eric Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA23737 for pups-liszt; Thu, 8 Jun 2000 09:37:35 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From pdub at accesscom.com Thu Jun 8 09:36:42 2000 From: pdub at accesscom.com (Paul West) Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 16:36:42 -0700 Subject: unix precursors References: Message-ID: <393EDC8A.237C8423@accesscom.com> "A. P. Garcia" wrote: > does anyone know where I can learn more about other precursors to > unix? On CTSS: F. J. Corbato et al. "An Experimental Time-Sharing System" Proceedings of the AFIPS, SJCC 1962, vol 21, pp 335-344. P. A. Crisman The Compatible Time-Sharing System: A Programmer's Guide, 2nd ed. MIT Press, 1965. On the Berkeley Timesharing System: W.W. Lichtenberger and M. W. Pirtle "A Facility for Experimentation in Man-Machine Interaction" Proceedings of the AFIPS, FJCC 1965, vol 27, pp 185-196. B. W. Lampson, W.W. Lichtenberger and M. W. Pirtle "A User Machine in a Time-Sharing System" Proceedings of the IEEE, vol 54 no 12 (Dec. 1966), pp 1766-1774. This last paper is reprinted in Chapter 24 of: C. Gordon Bell and Allen Newell Computer Structures: Readings and Examples Mc-Graw Hill, 1971 and this *entire* book is online at "http://www.research.microsoft.com/~gbell/Computer_Structures__Readings_and_Examples/contents.html" (the URL needs to be all on one line to cut and paste into your browser). Happy reading :) Paul Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA24483 for pups-liszt; Thu, 8 Jun 2000 12:28:39 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From pdub at accesscom.com Thu Jun 8 12:27:45 2000 From: pdub at accesscom.com (Paul West) Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 19:27:45 -0700 Subject: unix precursors References: <200006072250.RAA82201@shell-1.enteract.com> Message-ID: <393F04A1.2A71E151@accesscom.com> Eric Fischer wrote: > > I've read somewhere that > the system is supposed to be similar to the PDP-1 time sharing > system developed at MIT, but the only documentation I've located > on that is Mario Bonghi's master's thesis, which seems to have been > written before the hardware was even upgraded to be able to run > the software it describes. The book "Computer Engineering" by Bell, Mudge and McNamara gives another reference for the MIT PDP-1 timesharing system: J.B. Dennis, "A Multiuser Computation Facility for Education and Research" Comm. ACM, vol. 7 no. 9 (Sept. 1964), pp 521-529. BTW, there apparently were two different timesharing systems developed for the PDP-1, the second one coming from Bolt, Beranek, and Newman (BBN). "Computer Engineering" gives this reference for the BBN system: J. McCarthy, S. Boilen, E. Fredkin, and J.C.R. Lieklider "A Timesharing Debugging System for a Small Computer" AFIPS Conference Proceedings, SJCC 1963, vol 23, pp 51-57. Yes, that is John McCarthy of LISP fame. Paul Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA25136 for pups-liszt; Thu, 8 Jun 2000 14:59:41 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From sms at moe.2bsd.com Thu Jun 8 14:45:32 2000 From: sms at moe.2bsd.com (Steven M. Schultz) Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 21:45:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: RX50 on RQDX3 on 2.11BSD Message-ID: <200006080445.VAA25310@moe.2bsd.com> Hi - > From: "Jason T. Miller" > > Wow, quite a bit of interest in 2.11 these days - I suppose I should > It's the first PDP operating system I've enjoyed working with, and one of > the coolest UNIX implementations I've had the pleasure of working with. Ah, thanks! I can't claim _all_ the credit but 2.10.1 was more or less directly my "fault" and 2.11 was all set to be called 2.11SMS until one of the CSRG folks intervened and gave me the BSD imprimateur. > I unearthed two Teac 55-G series floppy drives, and they're both broken > (won't format w/verify) -- the RX50 isn't the only flakey floppy. I've got Sigh. Anyhow, to the problem you observed dd'ing data to an RX50 and the ensuing compare error. I'm using an RX33 (well, mod'd Teac 5.25" drive) on a RQDX3. I freshly formatted a floppy. That's one nice thing about the RX33, the RQDX3 can format floppies using ZRQF?? - RX50's meant getting preformat'd media or a Rainbow to do the formatting from what I remember. Then before doing anything I enabled a bit of extended logging from the MSCP driver with sysctl -w machdep.mscp.printf=9 The first access to the drive ("disklabel ra9") elicited a "ra9a=entire disk: no disk label" message. This is expected and correct - the kernel saw there was a corrupt/missing label and came up with a label that spanned the 2400 sectors of the drive using the 'a' partition. Next a 1.2mb file (sector 0 having zeroes, sector 1 having ones, etc) was dd'd: dd if=/tmp/data of=/dev/rra9a and almost immediately dd reported: write: Read-only file system 2+0 records in 2+0 records out That probably should have been 2+0 and 1+0 since dd read two sectors but only successfully wrote one. A bug in 'dd' perhaps that it doesn't decrement the output count on a write error. At any rate you should error out if the label area is not write enabled. The 'disklabel' program automatically enables and disables the writeprotect when writing the label in case you were wondering about that ;) After doing the "disklabel -W ra9" the "dd" works fine and the floppy compares identical to the input file. The MSCP driver hasn't changed in quite a while so if you retrieved 2.11 fairly recently the problem's not a bug in ra.c that I can see (or if it is, it's particular to the RX50 somehow). Why 'ra9' (I hear you ask)? Well, the system is currently booted from a different controller (Emulex UC08). The boot controller is *always* 'ra0 thru ra7' no matter what the CSR is. The secondary controller (the RQDX3 in this case) is always 'ra8 thru ra15'. The RD54 is 'ra8' (first drive on the 2nd controller) and the RX33 is ra9 (second drive on the second controller). > > Oh, for debugging purposes you can enable more or all of the MSCP > > messages with the 'sysctl' command: > > > > sysctl -w machdep.mscp.printf=X > > I will. Thanks. I didn't even know 2.11 had 'sysctl'. Cool. One more thing I stuffed into the system. You'll also find "sigaction" and friends along with RTS/CTS flowcontrol (for devices which support it), and numerous other goodies imported from 4.4BSD (the latest addition was 'pselect(2)' just a couple months ago). Steven Schultz sms at moe.2bsd.com Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA25267 for pups-liszt; Thu, 8 Jun 2000 15:43:47 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From lars at nocrew.org Thu Jun 8 15:41:44 2000 From: lars at nocrew.org (lars brinkhoff) Date: 08 Jun 2000 07:41:44 +0200 Subject: unix precursors In-Reply-To: "A. P. Garcia"'s message of "07 Jun 2000 21:58:58 +0000" References: Message-ID: <85snuoenl3.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> "A. P. Garcia" writes: > I know that www.multicians.org is a nice web site devoted to Multics, > but does anyone know where I can learn more about other precursors to > unix? How about ITS, did it influence Unix? Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA25534 for pups-liszt; Thu, 8 Jun 2000 17:15:14 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From bqt at Update.UU.SE Thu Jun 8 17:13:02 2000 From: bqt at Update.UU.SE (Johnny Billquist) Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 09:13:02 +0200 (MET DST) Subject: RQDX3 software interleave In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 7 Jun 2000, Roger Ivie wrote: > > Speaking of PITA > >device control, wasn't it the DEC RX02 that wrote address information in > >single density and data in DD? > > Yes, it was. But it was usually done by the hardware (I suppose that > would be microcode in the case of the RX02), so unless you wanted to > do something foolish like read RX02 diskettes in your DD CP/M machine > or format floppies you don't have to worry about it. And in those cases, you loose as well. The RX02 uses a micro-engine to control the drive. No chip controller can switch density in the middle of the track, so RX02 floppies will forever be in the domain of RX02 drives only. Note that formatting RX02 floppes is no problem, since you format them in single density. The RX02 sets a bit in the header if the data is DD, and this is controllable from all DEC OSes that I know of. Johnny Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at update.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA26778 for pups-liszt; Thu, 8 Jun 2000 23:04:30 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Jun 8 23:02:17 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp at world.std.com) Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 09:02:17 -0400 (EDT) Subject: RQDX3 software interleave In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > And in those cases, you loose as well. The RX02 uses a micro-engine to > control the drive. No chip controller can switch density in the middle of > the track, so RX02 floppies will forever be in the domain of RX02 drives > only. IF you must transfer RX02 resident files to a non dec system the only choice is another RX02 or compatable (DSD880 and friends). However, if that is available the disk can be reformatted to SSSD, data written to it and then standard floppy contoller chips and systems that can handle 8" media will work just fine. RX50 and RX33 formatting do not have this liability. Allison Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA27345 for pups-liszt; Fri, 9 Jun 2000 01:38:47 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From tls at rek.tjls.com Fri Jun 9 01:36:34 2000 From: tls at rek.tjls.com (Thor Lancelot Simon) Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 11:36:34 -0400 Subject: Newer BSD thingies....nice but then again.... In-Reply-To: <0006072246.AA16781@ivan.Harhan.ORG>; from msokolov@ivan.Harhan.ORG on Wed, Jun 07, 2000 at 05:46:55PM -0500 References: <0006072246.AA16781@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Message-ID: <20000608113634.A26968@rek.tjls.com> On Wed, Jun 07, 2000 at 05:46:55PM -0500, Michael Sokolov wrote: > jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de wrote: > > > Oh, yes. My VS4000m60 needs only 36 hours to go through a "make build". > > This is pure luxury.=20 > > And 4.3BSD-Quasijarus completes its make build on my CSRG dev mill, which is a > KA655 (3.8 VUPs, whereas your KA46 is 12 VUPs), in a little under 4 hours. The > GENERIC vmunix kernel is another 30 minutes. My experience with compilers on the VAX leads me to believe that the substantial "savings" seen over NetBSD or post-4.3 BSD distributions here is almost entirely due to the compiler and options used. If Quasijarus builds like CSRG 4.3 did, with pcc, it can't even use the optimizer *at all* for the kernel build, due to severe bugs; either way, pcc runs a lot faster than gcc though it generates code that runs a whole lot slower. I'd be willing to bet that gcc -O0 would build NetBSD at least ten times as fast as gcc -O2; the VAX is (as we all know ;-)) a "rather complex" processor, with "rather complex" instruction patterns, gcc is not the swiftest of compilers in the first place, and it does a *lot* of work. Slow machines *are* good for demonstrating how good your compiler is; I recall that rebuilding "compress" with gcc on my 750, way back when, pretty much doubled the amount of Usenet news I could handle in a day. :-) Thor Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA27554 for pups-liszt; Fri, 9 Jun 2000 01:57:10 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG Fri Jun 9 01:54:33 2000 From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov) Date: Thu, 8 Jun 00 10:54:33 CDT Subject: Newer BSD thingies....nice but then again.... Message-ID: <0006081554.AA17948@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Thor Lancelot Simon wrote: > If Quasijarus > builds like CSRG 4.3 did, with pcc [...] It does. > [...] it can't even use the optimizer *at all* > for the kernel build, due to severe bugs [...] Wrong, 4.3BSD-Quasijarus *does* use the optimizer for the kernel build, as did plain 4.3BSD, running c2 -i for the drivers and normally for everything else. -- Michael Sokolov Harhan Engineering Laboratory Public Service Agent International Free Computing Task Force International Engineering and Science Task Force 615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY STE #4 DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA Phone: +1-214-824-7693 (Harhan Eng Lab office) E-mail: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (ARPA TCP/SMTP) (UUCP coming soon) From jasomill at shaffstall.com Fri Jun 9 06:40:15 2000 From: jasomill at shaffstall.com (Jason T. Miller) Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 15:40:15 -0500 (EST) Subject: RX50 on RQDX3 on 2.11BSD In-Reply-To: <200006080445.VAA25310@moe.2bsd.com> Message-ID: > I freshly formatted a floppy. That's one nice thing about the RX33, > the RQDX3 can format floppies using ZRQF?? - RX50's meant getting > preformat'd media or a Rainbow to do the formatting from what I > remember. Unless you have a Shaffstall 6000 -- a really cool piece of equipment once made by my current employer, which is basically a box full of floppy drives (3.5" HD, 5.25" 48tpi, 5.25" 96tpi, 8", and a few, but not mine, have the Amstrad 3" 'flippy-disk') which are all _really_ well-aligned (20% better than OEM spec) and an intelligent disk controller (which is actually an 8085-based SBC) in a PC. About the only disks I _can't_ read (or write or format) with this thing are the 2.88MB 3.5" 'extended-density' disks -- and I have a NeXTstation to read those. Needless to say, I've got no problem formatting RX50s, in any interleave. > write: Read-only file system > 2+0 records in > 2+0 records out That's what I get. > That probably should have been 2+0 and 1+0 since dd read two sectors but > only successfully wrote one. A bug in 'dd' perhaps that it doesn't > decrement the output count on a write error. I noticed that, too. > After doing the "disklabel -W ra9" the "dd" works fine and the floppy > compares identical to the input file. Still haven't tried it. Had to watch the Pacers game and get some needed sleep. > The MSCP driver hasn't changed in quite a while so if you retrieved > 2.11 fairly recently the problem's not a bug in ra.c that I can > see (or if it is, it's particular to the RX50 somehow). I've gone over ra.c several times -- that's a fun piece of code. I've written device drivers before, but really, was this a test of DEC software engineers by DEC hardware engineers? > One more thing I stuffed into the system. You'll also find > "sigaction" and friends along with RTS/CTS flowcontrol (for devices > which support it), and numerous other goodies imported from 4.4BSD (the > latest addition was 'pselect(2)' just a couple months ago). Well, all my serial cables are three-wire (yes, I'm lazy, but I get 1.8K/sec via SLIP at 19200, so I'm not too concerned), but the 'numerous other goodies' I like. As for the userland environment, it's "vanilla BSD" and that's exactly what I know and love. Give me 2.11BSD on a PDP over Solaris on an UltraSPARC any day (well, if anyone wants to _give me_ and UltraSPARC, I'll do the responsible thing and reevaluate my claims -- and SunOS [4.1.x that is] is a decent OS, but anyway, I digress). The only thing I want is command history and filename completion in the Bourne shell (having grown used to Bash -- although it's a big memory pig and I admit I use it only for the previously mentioned features, though I like the PS variable magic characters, too -- I'm thinking about trying to hack the CH features of tcsh (never been a C shell fan) into sh, maybe we should start a 2BSD 'ports' collection? Any suggestions for a name of this shell? Any suggestions for freeing up my time to write it :)? Also, when I get my RX50 toolset for FreeBSD working, should I put it in the archive? It'd probably be more interesting to PUPS'ers than the FreeBSD community At Large. -jtm Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA29341 for pups-liszt; Fri, 9 Jun 2000 08:43:34 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From enf at pobox.com Fri Jun 9 08:41:25 2000 From: enf at pobox.com (Eric Fischer) Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 17:41:25 -0500 (CDT) Subject: unix precursors In-Reply-To: <393F04A1.2A71E151@accesscom.com> References: <200006072250.RAA82201@shell-1.enteract.com> <393F04A1.2A71E151@accesscom.com> Message-ID: <200006082241.RAA99748@shell-2.enteract.com> Paul West writes, > BTW, there apparently were two different timesharing systems developed > for the PDP-1, the second one coming from Bolt, Beranek, and Newman > (BBN). Thanks for reminding me about the Jack Dennis article -- I had forgotten about that one. There were, I think, at least *four* time-sharing systems for the PDP-1. Besides the MIT and BBN ones, there was also the Hospital Computer Project (I'm not sure whether that one was descended from the early BBN system or was written from scratch) and the THOR system at Stanford. I can't give proper citations because I'm currently 2000 miles from my book collection. eric Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA29456 for pups-liszt; Fri, 9 Jun 2000 09:00:50 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From wkt at cs.adfa.edu.au Fri Jun 9 08:58:44 2000 From: wkt at cs.adfa.edu.au (Warren Toomey) Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 08:58:44 +1000 (EST) Subject: tcsh on 2.11BSD In-Reply-To: from "Jason T. Miller" at "Jun 8, 2000 3:40:15 pm" Message-ID: <200006082258.IAA05733@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> In article by Jason T. Miller: > The only thing I want is > command history and filename completion in the Bourne shell (having grown > used to Bash -- although it's a big memory pig and I admit I use it only > for the previously mentioned features, though I like the PS variable magic > characters, too -- I'm thinking about trying to hack the CH features of > tcsh (never been a C shell fan) into sh, maybe we should start a 2BSD > 'ports' collection? Any suggestions for a name of this shell? Any > suggestions for freeing up my time to write it :)? I thought there was a port of an early tcsh to 2.*BSD? Maybe I have poor memory. Anyway, I believe that Minix has a very tiny editline(), which could be squeezed into the 2.11BSD csh to give you command-line editing. > Also, when I get my RX50 toolset for FreeBSD working, should I put it in > the archive? It'd probably be more interesting to PUPS'ers than the > FreeBSD community At Large. Yep, it will go into Tools/ Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA29574 for pups-liszt; Fri, 9 Jun 2000 09:24:11 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From enf at pobox.com Fri Jun 9 09:21:44 2000 From: enf at pobox.com (Eric Fischer) Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 18:21:44 -0500 (CDT) Subject: unix precursors In-Reply-To: <85snuoenl3.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> References: <85snuoenl3.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> Message-ID: <200006082321.SAA57997@shell-1.enteract.com> Lars Brinkhoff writes, > How about ITS, did it influence Unix? If nothing else, the "more" program began as a copy of an ITS feature. And people think of emacs as a Unix program, but it came to Unix from ITS and brought with it things like the "info" documentation format. eric Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA29906 for pups-liszt; Fri, 9 Jun 2000 10:28:15 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From pdub at accesscom.com Fri Jun 9 10:27:13 2000 From: pdub at accesscom.com (Paul West) Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2000 17:27:13 -0700 Subject: unix precursors References: <85snuoenl3.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> Message-ID: <394039E1.ED6AB226@accesscom.com> lars brinkhoff wrote: > How about ITS, did it influence Unix? ITS was quite idiosyncratic, and I do not recall that Richie or Thompson ever mentioned it as an influence on Unix. But you can judge for yourself, if you want. The ITS Reference manual is available at "ftp://publications.ai.mit.edu/ai-publications/0-499/AIM-161A.ps" The source code and system documentation for ITS has been released under the GPL, and is at "ftp://fpt.swiss.ai.mit.edu/pub/its". Happy historical hunting! Paul Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA29925 for pups-liszt; Fri, 9 Jun 2000 10:31:08 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From pdub at accesscom.com Fri Jun 9 10:29:55 2000 From: pdub at accesscom.com (Paul West) Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2000 17:29:55 -0700 Subject: unix precursors (corrected URL) References: <85snuoenl3.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> Message-ID: <39403A83.CDDC2592@accesscom.com> Sorry for the repeat, I mistyped a URL in the first version. Paul --- lars brinkhoff wrote: > How about ITS, did it influence Unix? ITS was quite idiosyncratic, and I do not recall that Richie or Thompson ever mentioned it as an influence on Unix. But you can judge for yourself, if you want. The ITS Reference manual is available at "ftp://publications.ai.mit.edu/ai-publications/0-499/AIM-161A.ps" The source code and system documentation for ITS has been released under the GPL, and is at "ftp://ftp.swiss.ai.mit.edu/pub/its". Happy historical hunting! Paul Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA32362 for pups-liszt; Fri, 9 Jun 2000 19:09:04 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From jasomill at indiana.edu Fri Jun 9 18:55:11 2000 From: jasomill at indiana.edu (Jason T. Miller) Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 03:55:11 -0500 (EST) Subject: RX50 read/write on FreeBSD Message-ID: Thanks to the good advice of members of the PUPS mailing list, I've completed my first stab at an RX50 read/write toolset for FreeBSD. It consists of two parts, a kernel patch to add the physical format, and a filter set to deal with the logical sector interleave. It's ugly (not only does it only support stdin and stdout, but it uses both 'goto' and the ternary operator; I tend to deeply offend the C style gods, late at night when I think nobody's watching), but it seems to work pretty well. The kernel patch, at least, is clean. Those with good karma and flawlessly aligned drive heads can even try formatting their own RX50s. So how do I submit it to the archive? "incoming" seems to be RO. It's about 3K, tarred and gzipped. Jason T. Miller Self-styled Jack of England "..." -Anonymous Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA33589 for pups-liszt; Fri, 9 Jun 2000 23:19:02 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From jasomill at shaffstall.com Fri Jun 9 23:14:11 2000 From: jasomill at shaffstall.com (Jason T. Miller) Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 08:14:11 -0500 (EST) Subject: tcsh on 2.11BSD In-Reply-To: <200006082258.IAA05733@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Message-ID: > I thought there was a port of an early tcsh to 2.*BSD? Maybe I have poor > memory. Anyway, I believe that Minix has a very tiny editline(), which > could be squeezed into the 2.11BSD csh to give you command-line editing. Yup. There's a tcsh included in 2.11BSD; thing is, I'm partial to the Bourne shell. Hence, a project. > > Also, when I get my RX50 toolset for FreeBSD working, should I put it in > > the archive? It'd probably be more interesting to PUPS'ers than the > > FreeBSD community At Large. > > Yep, it will go into Tools/ Well, it's kind of ugly (okay, really ugly), but it's working pretty well. The physical I/O portion is a (miniscule) patch against the 4.0-STABLE FreeBSD kernel, but the interleave filters are pretty much standard C (hideous C, but no BSD tricks) and should work on any raw I/O read of an RX50 disk (you can do it in Linux without kernel mods; see setfdprm(8)). Of course, the filters are only applicable to PDP-11-ish or VAX-ish RX50s; Rainbow and DECmate disks are totally different; if someone wants to implement those things, go ahead (Rainbow MS-DOS could be had with careful mods to mtools, and there are a billion ways to skin a CP/M disk; haven't seen anything on UNIX to handle the DEC WPS file management system, but I digress), but they have little to do with UNIX on the PDP and less to do with me personally (my loving father having discarded my DECmate II as junk about ten years ago). -jtm Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA34013 for pups-liszt; Sat, 10 Jun 2000 00:57:18 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG Sat Jun 10 00:54:25 2000 From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov) Date: Fri, 9 Jun 00 09:54:25 CDT Subject: tcsh on 2.11BSD Message-ID: <0006091454.AA19804@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Jason T. Miller wrote: > (my loving father having discarded my > DECmate II as junk about ten years ago). Then call your nearest DEC dealer, get a quote on the replacement price, and sue your dad for the cost! Or report him to NKVD for vandalism of socialist property. -- Michael Sokolov Harhan Engineering Laboratory Public Service Agent International Free Computing Task Force International Engineering and Science Task Force 615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY STE #4 DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA Phone: +1-214-824-7693 (Harhan Eng Lab office) E-mail: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (ARPA TCP/SMTP) (UUCP coming soon) Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA34141 for pups-liszt; Sat, 10 Jun 2000 01:19:23 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From rivie at teraglobal.com Sat Jun 10 01:16:50 2000 From: rivie at teraglobal.com (Roger Ivie) Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 09:16:50 -0600 Subject: RX50 read/write on FreeBSD In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Jason Miller wrote: >(not only >does it only support stdin and stdout, but it uses both 'goto' and the >ternary operator; I tend to deeply offend the C style gods, late at >night when I think nobody's watching) Could be worse. I deeply offend the C style gods right in the open where everyone can see. Since I'm pretty much a hardware type, I do _everything_ in state machines. While that works great for everything from hardware to Prolog, it does mean my code tends to assume the only available control structure is "if( expr ) goto state;". My attitude is that the state diagram is the program, the code is just an implementation detail. I used to work for a company that did TURBOchannel devices. I did the device drivers for all the platforms (VAX/VMS, Alpha/VMS, Ultrix, and OSF/1) and I shipped source code (it wasn't a conscious decision on the part of management; since I got to build the distribution kits, the source code was included and management simply didn't argue with me). One day I got a letter from someone who had just bought our TURBOchannel parallel printer port offering to go through the code and remove all those evil gotos for the low, low price of only $100 a page. I declined the offer. -- Roger Ivie rivie at teraglobal.com Not speaking for TeraGlobal Communications Corporation Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id DAA37120 for pups-liszt; Sat, 10 Jun 2000 03:55:47 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From bqt at Update.UU.SE Sat Jun 10 03:53:05 2000 From: bqt at Update.UU.SE (Johnny Billquist) Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 19:53:05 +0200 (MET DST) Subject: Newer BSD thingies....nice but then again.... In-Reply-To: <20000608113634.A26968@rek.tjls.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 8 Jun 2000, Thor Lancelot Simon wrote: > On Wed, Jun 07, 2000 at 05:46:55PM -0500, Michael Sokolov wrote: > > jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de wrote: > > > > > Oh, yes. My VS4000m60 needs only 36 hours to go through a "make build". > > > This is pure luxury. > > > > And 4.3BSD-Quasijarus completes its make build on my CSRG dev mill, which is a > > KA655 (3.8 VUPs, whereas your KA46 is 12 VUPs), in a little under 4 hours. The > > GENERIC vmunix kernel is another 30 minutes. > > My experience with compilers on the VAX leads me to believe that the > substantial "savings" seen over NetBSD or post-4.3 BSD distributions here > is almost entirely due to the compiler and options used. If Quasijarus > builds like CSRG 4.3 did, with pcc, it can't even use the optimizer *at all* > for the kernel build, due to severe bugs; either way, pcc runs a lot faster > than gcc though it generates code that runs a whole lot slower. Um. Let me put it this way... Userland is a *lot* smaller in 4.3 than NetBSD... How much time do you think that makes up? The same goes for the kernel. It's not that 4.3 is faster per se, just that it has a lot less to build. > I'd be willing to bet that gcc -O0 would build NetBSD at least ten times > as fast as gcc -O2; the VAX is (as we all know ;-)) a "rather complex" > processor, with "rather complex" instruction patterns, gcc is not the > swiftest of compilers in the first place, and it does a *lot* of work. True. > Slow machines *are* good for demonstrating how good your compiler is; > I recall that rebuilding "compress" with gcc on my 750, way back when, > pretty much doubled the amount of Usenet news I could handle in a day. :-) :-) Johnny Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at update.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id EAA37260 for pups-liszt; Sat, 10 Jun 2000 04:45:23 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From sms at moe.2bsd.com Sat Jun 10 04:42:16 2000 From: sms at moe.2bsd.com (Steven M. Schultz) Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 11:42:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: RX50 on RQDX3 on 2.11BSD Message-ID: <200006091842.LAA18214@moe.2bsd.com> > From: "Jason T. Miller" > > write: Read-only file system > > 2+0 records in > > 2+0 records out > That's what I get. Oh - ok. I must have misread the initial posting that indicated the complete copy went thru dd if=testrx50.img of=/dev/ra12a 800+0 records in 800+0 records out If the writing of the floppy bailed out after "2+0" then it is no wonder the compare later fails - only the first sector was written. > > After doing the "disklabel -W ra9" the "dd" works fine and the floppy > > compares identical to the input file. > > Still haven't tried it. Had to watch the Pacers game and get some needed > sleep. Sleep I can understand :) I really think (and sure hope!) that write enabling the label area will fix the problem. Having to do a "disklabel -W" on a disk before doing 'raw' I/O was a change that came in when labels were implemented. Before labels the tables were compiled into the driver and 'raw' I/O could scribble all over the disk and the system would still know about the partitioning. When I ported over disklabels from 4.3-Reno it seemed like a "Good Thing" to be paranoid about preserving the label sector ;) > I've gone over ra.c several times -- that's a fun piece of code. I've > written device drivers before, but really, was this a test of DEC > software engineers by DEC hardware engineers? You know - I think it was a contest inside DEC to see who would go crazy first. Reading the comments in the Ultrix drivers gave me the impression that even within DEC getting clear and correct documentation wasn't a given. Then there are Chris Torek's comments in the 4.3-Reno and later MSCP drivers when he was in essence reverse engineering (or outright guessing) the MSCP commands, options, etc. > Well, all my serial cables are three-wire (yes, I'm lazy, but I get > 1.8K/sec via SLIP at 19200, so I'm not too concerned), but the 'numerous > other goodies' I like. Hmmm, that's got to be a DHQ or similar. I had real problems with a DHV-11 and character loss when going over 9600. Also, if you want to use "Kermit" you have to have RTS/CTS because that's a fairly heavy weight protocol and the system can't keep up if the rate is too high. With RTS/CTS in place I was able to use 38400 and not loose a single character. > what I know and love. Give me 2.11BSD on a PDP over Solaris on an > UltraSPARC any day (well, if anyone wants to _give me_ and UltraSPARC, Slowaris? "Just say no" - I have to deal with that at work and it was light night and day going from SunOS 4.1.x to Slowaris 2.x on the same hardware. You *need* an UltraSparc just to restore the system responsiveness. > I'll do the responsible thing and reevaluate my claims -- and SunOS [4.1.x > that is] is a decent OS, but anyway, I digress). The only thing I want is Bit long in the tooth and missing a lot of the improvements (and fixes) in the IP/TCP stack that have been made over time. Still, it was a much nicer system. > command history and filename completion in the Bourne shell (having grown > used to Bash -- although it's a big memory pig and I admit I use it only > for the previously mentioned features, though I like the PS variable magic > characters, too -- I'm thinking about trying to hack the CH features of > tcsh (never been a C shell fan) into sh, maybe we should start a 2BSD > 'ports' collection? Any suggestions for a name of this shell? Any > suggestions for freeing up my time to write it :)? Might I suggest "pig"? I like and use 'csh' for everything except the basic scripts that go into the system. Csh has filename completion that works fairly well, only thing it doesn't have is arrowkey driven command editing. But observe the bloat factor that comes with "niceties" such as command history and command editing: First there's the honest to Bourne shell: text data bss dec hex 16576 2356 416 19348 4b94 /bin/sh Then take a look at /bin/csh where there's history and a nicer (to me scripting capability - doing arithmetic in csh is so much easier than in sh): 55744 7104 3682 66530 103e2 total text: 69120 overlays: 7360,6016 Overlaid! Efficiently (the one overlay is called seldom) but overlaid none the less. And lastly 'tcsh' (and yes, there is a port of an older version of tcsh for 2.11): 48960 14844 11986 75790 1280e total text: 140864 overlays: 15424,16000,14144,14016,16256,16064 Zounds! No hope of really being efficient - modules were packed where they would fit. More than doubling the size of 'csh' seems to be a VERY high price to pay for using the arrow keys if you ask me. Oh, and 'tcsh' has another problem due to it's appetite for memory. If it runs out of D space (more likely since it's so much larger) you get logged out. Doing filename completion in 'tcsh' and being in a directory with too many files is a sure way to be staring at the login prompt shortly there after ;) Steven Schultz sms at moe.2bsd.com Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id FAA37372 for pups-liszt; Sat, 10 Jun 2000 05:01:53 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From tls at rek.tjls.com Sat Jun 10 04:59:38 2000 From: tls at rek.tjls.com (Thor Lancelot Simon) Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 14:59:38 -0400 Subject: Newer BSD thingies....nice but then again.... In-Reply-To: ; from bqt@Update.UU.SE on Fri, Jun 09, 2000 at 07:53:05PM +0200 References: <20000608113634.A26968@rek.tjls.com> Message-ID: <20000609145938.A6135@rek.tjls.com> On Fri, Jun 09, 2000 at 07:53:05PM +0200, Johnny Billquist wrote: > > > > My experience with compilers on the VAX leads me to believe that the > > substantial "savings" seen over NetBSD or post-4.3 BSD distributions here > > is almost entirely due to the compiler and options used. If Quasijarus > > builds like CSRG 4.3 did, with pcc, it can't even use the optimizer *at all* > > for the kernel build, due to severe bugs; either way, pcc runs a lot faster > > than gcc though it generates code that runs a whole lot slower. > > Um. Let me put it this way... Userland is a *lot* smaller in 4.3 than > NetBSD... How much time do you think that makes up? The same goes for the > kernel. It's not that 4.3 is faster per se, just that it has a lot less to > build. Well, of course it does. But it's also well worth keeping in mind that while pcc is generally inferior to gcc in almost every other way, due to its simplicity it *is* probably at least five times as fast. A lot of the difference in speed we're talking about here, particularly with regard to the kernel, is due to the use of a much slower compiler; as much of the kernel as you *have* to build for a VAX (as opposed to what you *can* build if you *want to*) hasn't really bloated a lot between 4.3 and NetBSD. Runtime memory use is a somewhat different matter, but we do still fit into Ragge's smaller VAXen pretty well. Thanks to Michael for reminding me exactly what the situation with the optimizer and kernel builds under 4.3 is. Though I think he forgot to mention "inline" (ack! pffffft!)... :-) -- Thor Lancelot Simon tls at rek.tjls.com "And where do all these highways go, now that we are free?" Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id FAA37445 for pups-liszt; Sat, 10 Jun 2000 05:21:16 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG Sat Jun 10 05:18:21 2000 From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov) Date: Fri, 9 Jun 00 14:18:21 CDT Subject: Newer BSD thingies....nice but then again.... Message-ID: <0006091918.AA20337@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Thor Lancelot Simon wrote: > Thanks to Michael for reminding me exactly what the situation with > the optimizer and kernel builds under 4.3 is. Though I think he > forgot to mention "inline" (ack! pffffft!)... :-) We do use inline of course. I love it. -- Michael Sokolov Harhan Engineering Laboratory Public Service Agent International Free Computing Task Force International Engineering and Science Task Force 615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY STE #4 DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA Phone: +1-214-824-7693 (Harhan Eng Lab office) E-mail: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (ARPA TCP/SMTP) (UUCP coming soon) Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id FAA37569 for pups-liszt; Sat, 10 Jun 2000 05:39:28 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From obrien at NUXI.com Sat Jun 10 05:37:25 2000 From: obrien at NUXI.com (David O'Brien) Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 12:37:25 -0700 Subject: PLEASE TAKE THIS ELSEWHERE (was Re: RX50 on RQDX3 on 2.11BSD) In-Reply-To: <200006091842.LAA18214@moe.2bsd.com>; from sms@moe.2bsd.com on Fri, Jun 09, 2000 at 11:42:16AM -0700 References: <200006091842.LAA18214@moe.2bsd.com> Message-ID: <20000609123725.S55675@dragon.nuxi.com> This thread has gotten *way* beyond what I (and I'll bet many others) read this list for. From jasomill at shaffstall.com Sat Jun 10 06:17:48 2000 From: jasomill at shaffstall.com (Jason T. Miller) Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 15:17:48 -0500 (EST) Subject: RX02 diskettes Message-ID: > And in those cases, you loose as well. The RX02 uses a micro-engine to > control the drive. No chip controller can switch density in the middle > of > the track, so RX02 floppies will forever be in the domain of RX02 drives > only. Funny thing. I read 'em on my PS/2. I Am Not Making This Up. No prefabricated single-chip floppy controller, methinks... -jtm Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id HAA38020 for pups-liszt; Sat, 10 Jun 2000 07:01:22 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From SHOPPA at trailing-edge.com Sat Jun 10 06:59:09 2000 From: SHOPPA at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 16:59:09 -0400 Subject: PLEASE TAKE THIS ELSEWHERE (was Re: RX50 on RQDX3 on 2.11BSD) Message-ID: <000609165909.20200fd8@trailing-edge.com> > This thread has gotten *way* beyond what I (and I'll bet many others) > read this list for. I *think* you wrote this in reply to Steven Schultz's message, (at least that's the impression I got from the headers indicating it was a direct reply to his message), but that doesn't make much sense because what he wrote about was *exactly* on target for what this list is about: Running Unix on PDP-11's. OK, his jabs at Solaris probably weren't exactly on topic, but let's look at what else he discussed: * The disklabel implementation on 2.11BSD and its roots in other Unices. * The history of MSCP drivers in 2.11BSD and other BSD-derived Unices. * Efficient use of DHQ and DHV async multiplexers in Unix. * The history of sh, csh, and tcsh, some introduction to how they use overlays on PDP-11 Unices, and the application of split I/D techniques to their operation. All of these are, IMHO, very worthy topics of discussion for a mailing list about PDP-11 Unix, and they were all direct from the expert on the subject(s). What else would a subscriber to the PUPS list be looking for? -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa at trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id HAA38149 for pups-liszt; Sat, 10 Jun 2000 07:23:38 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From gqueri at mail.dotcom.fr Sat Jun 10 07:20:51 2000 From: gqueri at mail.dotcom.fr (Gael Queri) Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 23:20:51 +0200 Subject: tcsh on 2.11BSD In-Reply-To: ; from jasomill@shaffstall.com on Fri, Jun 09, 2000 at 08:13:49AM -0500 References: <200006082258.IAA05733@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Message-ID: <20000609232051.A28762@baoule.ath.cx> On Fri, Jun 09, 2000 at 08:13:49AM -0500, Jason T. Miller wrote: > > I thought there was a port of an early tcsh to 2.*BSD? Maybe I have poor > > memory. Anyway, I believe that Minix has a very tiny editline(), which > > could be squeezed into the 2.11BSD csh to give you command-line editing. > Yup. There's a tcsh included in 2.11BSD; thing is, I'm partial to the > Bourne shell. Hence, a project. And did you try to do something with pdksh? It's smaller than tcsh and it has filename completion and support for reentrant history (contrary to bash) look at ftp.cs.mun.ca:/pub/pdksh/ Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA38483 for pups-liszt; Sat, 10 Jun 2000 08:25:41 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From obrien at NUXI.com Sat Jun 10 08:23:55 2000 From: obrien at NUXI.com (David O'Brien) Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 15:23:55 -0700 Subject: PLEASE TAKE THIS ELSEWHERE (was Re: RX50 on RQDX3 on 2.11BSD) In-Reply-To: <000609165909.20200fd8@trailing-edge.com>; from SHOPPA@trailing-edge.com on Fri, Jun 09, 2000 at 04:59:09PM -0400 References: <000609165909.20200fd8@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <20000609152354.A60849@dragon.nuxi.com> On Fri, Jun 09, 2000 at 04:59:09PM -0400, Tim Shoppa wrote: > > This thread has gotten *way* beyond what I (and I'll bet many others) > > read this list for. > > I *think* you wrote this in reply to Steven Schultz's message, (at least Yes, I wrote it in reply to Steven's message. Not it as not directed directly at Steven, it is for everyone that is engaged in this hardware discussion. > All of these are, IMHO, very worthy topics of discussion for a mailing > list about PDP-11 Unix, and they were all direct from the expert on the > subject(s). What else would a subscriber to the PUPS list be looking for? This goes back to the UHS / PUPS discussion. I didn't vote so before, but maybe it is time to separate the mail for the two. I agree that the first posts were interesting in the historical insight that could be gained. But this thread has turned into a rather long hardware discussion applicable to only a handful of people that have this hardware. I do not mean to be mean, but it seems moving this to some PDP-11 list (I guess one needs to be created) would be possible. -- -- David (obrien at NUXI.com) Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA39191 for pups-liszt; Sat, 10 Jun 2000 11:34:36 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From SHOPPA at trailing-edge.com Sat Jun 10 11:32:24 2000 From: SHOPPA at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 21:32:24 -0400 Subject: PLEASE TAKE THIS ELSEWHERE (was Re: RX50 on RQDX3 on 2.11BSD) Message-ID: <000609213224.20200fd8@trailing-edge.com> >> > This thread has gotten *way* beyond what I (and I'll bet many others) >> > read this list for. >> >> I *think* you wrote this in reply to Steven Schultz's message, (at least >Yes, I wrote it in reply to Steven's message. Not it as not directed >directly at Steven, it is for everyone that is engaged in this hardware >discussion. Actually, Steven did a *very* good job at turning a hardware-oriented discussion to issues very much related to the history and maintainence of Unix. Besides, if anyone here wants to really know about RX50 interleaving, they should go read one of CJL's posts from the Lasnerian early 90's to alt.sys.pdp8/PDP8-LOVERS about RX50 interleave. I swear, it was a tome that was a good chunk of a megabyte long. >> All of these are, IMHO, very worthy topics of discussion for a mailing >> list about PDP-11 Unix, and they were all direct from the expert on the >> subject(s). What else would a subscriber to the PUPS list be looking for? >This goes back to the UHS / PUPS discussion. I didn't vote so before, >but maybe it is time to separate the mail for the two. I agree that the >first posts were interesting in the historical insight that could be >gained. But this thread has turned into a rather long hardware >discussion applicable to only a handful of people that have this >hardware. I view it the other way - the original posts offered little historical insight, but the last one by Steven drew it very much back to Unix. >I do not mean to be mean, but it seems moving this to some PDP-11 list (I >guess one needs to be created) would be possible. Indeed, there is a PDP-11 mailing list (info-pdp11 at village.org) already, gatewayed to the Usenet newsgroup vmsnet.pdp-11. To a large extent, though, you can't blame members of the PUPS mailing list from occasionally straying from "Unix in general" to the "PDP-11 in particular", because that's a good part of what the list was originally created for (even though you might not have joined until the The Unix Heritage Society solidified...) If there was a more general "Unix Heritage Society" mailing list, would platform-specific discussions be banned from that? I probably would be bored to tears by any such restrictions, as there would be no opportunities to give concrete examples. Tim. Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA39261 for pups-liszt; Sat, 10 Jun 2000 11:57:16 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From grog at lemis.com Sat Jun 10 11:54:48 2000 From: grog at lemis.com (Greg Lehey) Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 11:24:48 +0930 Subject: PLEASE TAKE THIS ELSEWHERE (was Re: RX50 on RQDX3 on 2.11BSD) In-Reply-To: <20000609152354.A60849@dragon.nuxi.com> References: <000609165909.20200fd8@trailing-edge.com> <20000609152354.A60849@dragon.nuxi.com> Message-ID: <20000610112448.K81728@wantadilla.lemis.com> On Friday, 9 June 2000 at 15:23:55 -0700, David O'Brien wrote: > On Fri, Jun 09, 2000 at 04:59:09PM -0400, Tim Shoppa wrote: >>> This thread has gotten *way* beyond what I (and I'll bet many others) >>> read this list for. >> >> I *think* you wrote this in reply to Steven Schultz's message, (at least > > Yes, I wrote it in reply to Steven's message. Not it as not directed > directly at Steven, it is for everyone that is engaged in this hardware > discussion. > >> All of these are, IMHO, very worthy topics of discussion for a mailing >> list about PDP-11 Unix, and they were all direct from the expert on the >> subject(s). What else would a subscriber to the PUPS list be looking for? > > This goes back to the UHS / PUPS discussion. I didn't vote so before, > but maybe it is time to separate the mail for the two. I agree that the > first posts were interesting in the historical insight that could be > gained. But this thread has turned into a rather long hardware > discussion applicable to only a handful of people that have this > hardware. > > I do not mean to be mean, but it seems moving this to some PDP-11 list (I > guess one needs to be created) would be possible. Well, FWIW this *is* the PDP-11 list. But I thought it was interesting way beyond the PDP-11 aspect. Some of these things (write-protected labels, for example) still shape FreeBSD, for example. I don't think we really have enough mail to justify two lists. Most of us probably ditch more than 50% of their mail every day anyway; if this doesn't interest you, why not just delete it? Greg -- Finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers From cpg at aladdin.de Mon Jun 12 08:35:18 2000 From: cpg at aladdin.de (Christian Groessler) Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 23:35:18 +0100 Subject: problems booting 2.11_rp_unknown Message-ID: <412568FB.0081A620.00@saturn.aladdin.de> Hi, (Sorry if this is a FAQ) I'm trying to boot the 2.11_rp_unknown image from Boot_Images. This is what happens: ---------------------- gibbon:/net/scharfzahn/playing/boot_images$ pdp11 PDP-11 simulator V2.3d sim> set cpu 18b sim> att rp0 2.11_rp_unknown sim> boot rp 53Boot from xp(0,0,0) at 0176700 : xp(0,0,0)unix Boot: bootdev=05000 bootcsr=0176700 2.11 BSD UNIX #11: Tue Jan 6 16:57:02 MET 1998 root at pdp11.begemot.com:/usr/src/sys/HIPPON panic: buffers no fs on dev 10/0 dumping to dev 5001 off 512 dump args:EINVAL HALT instruction, PC: 006606 (JSR R5,3162) sim> ---------------------- What am I doing wrong? regards, chris Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA51856 for pups-liszt; Mon, 12 Jun 2000 09:41:54 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From sms at moe.2bsd.com Mon Jun 12 09:36:45 2000 From: sms at moe.2bsd.com (Steven M. Schultz) Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 16:36:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: problems booting 2.11_rp_unknown Message-ID: <200006112336.QAA12888@moe.2bsd.com> Hi - > From: "Christian Groessler" > > I'm trying to boot the 2.11_rp_unknown image from Boot_Images. > This is what happens: > > PDP-11 simulator V2.3d > sim> set cpu 18b Try "set cpu 22b" instead. Using 18b tells the simulator you have a 248kb (and 8kb for the I/O page) machine and that is not enough for 2.11 to load and allocate all the resources it needs. > panic: buffers Yep -that panic message says the kernel could not allocate any memory for the buffer cache. I am almost certain that means there is not enough free memory left out of 248kb. > What am I doing wrong? Try telling the emulator to use "22bit" mode. If that still fails let us know. Then it will be time for "Plan B" ;) Steven Schultz sms at moe.2bsd.com Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA52060 for pups-liszt; Mon, 12 Jun 2000 10:45:16 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From cpg at aladdin.de Mon Jun 12 10:37:24 2000 From: cpg at aladdin.de (Christian Groessler) Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 01:37:24 +0100 Subject: problems booting 2.11_rp_unknown Message-ID: <412568FC.00096F95.00@saturn.aladdin.de> On 06/11/2000 11:36:45 PM GMT "Steven M. Schultz" wrote: > >> >> PDP-11 simulator V2.3d >> sim> set cpu 18b > > Try "set cpu 22b" instead. Using 18b tells the simulator you have > a 248kb (and 8kb for the I/O page) machine and that is not enough > for 2.11 to load and allocate all the resources it needs. > >> panic: buffers > > Yep -that panic message says the kernel could not allocate any > memory for the buffer cache. I am almost certain that means > there is not enough free memory left out of 248kb. > >> What am I doing wrong? > > Try telling the emulator to use "22bit" mode. If that still > fails let us know. Then it will be time for "Plan B" ;) Hmm, sorry, it still doesn't work: --------------------- gibbon:/net/scharfzahn/playing/boot_images$ pdp11 PDP-11 simulator V2.3d sim> set cpu 22b sim> att rp0 2.11_rp_unknown sim> boot rp 53Boot from xp(0,0,0) at 0176700 : xp(0,0,0)unix Boot: bootdev=05000 bootcsr=0176700 2.11 BSD UNIX #11: Tue Jan 6 16:57:02 MET 1998 root at pdp11.begemot.com:/usr/src/sys/HIPPON panic: buffers no fs on dev 10/0 dumping to dev 5001 off 512 dump args:EINVAL HALT instruction, PC: 006606 (JSR R5,3162) sim> --------------------- What is "Plan B"? :-) regards, chris Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA52223 for pups-liszt; Mon, 12 Jun 2000 11:41:50 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From sms at moe.2bsd.com Mon Jun 12 11:33:37 2000 From: sms at moe.2bsd.com (Steven M. Schultz) Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 18:33:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: problems booting 2.11_rp_unknown Message-ID: <200006120133.SAA13674@moe.2bsd.com> > From: "Christian Groessler" > Hmm, sorry, it still doesn't work: > sim> set cpu 22b > sim> att rp0 2.11_rp_unknown > sim> boot rp > What is "Plan B"? :-) Plan B is to specify the amount of memory directly. Simply saying "set cpu 22B" tells the emulator to use 22 bit addressing - but it does not say how much memory the system has (it's possible to have 1mb of memory even though ~4mb is possible). Try using both "set cpu 22B" and "set cpu 2048K" - that worked here. It may well be that only "set cpu 2048K" is actually needed - I didn't try that by itself. Script started on Sun Jun 11 18:30:40 2000 moe.1-> cat f set cpu 22B set cpu 2048K att rp0 rp boot rp moe.2-> pdp11 f PDP-11 simulator V2.3d 53Boot from xp(0,0,0) at 0176700 : : xp(0,0,0)unix Boot: bootdev=05000 bootcsr=0176700 2.11 BSD UNIX #11: Tue Jan 6 16:57:02 MET 1998 root at pdp11.begemot.com:/usr/src/sys/HIPPON attaching lo0 phys mem = 2097152 avail mem = 1668352 user mem = 307200 January 8 06:50:29 init: configure system lp 0 csr 177514 vector 200 attached rl 0 csr 174400 vector 160 attached tm 0 csr 172520 vector 224 attached xp 0 csr 176700 vector 254 attached cn 1 csr 176500 vector 300 skipped: No CSR. cn 2 csr 176510 vector 310 skipped: No CSR. cn 3 csr 176520 vector 320 skipped: No CSR. cn 4 csr 176530 vector 330 skipped: No CSR. erase, kill ^U, intr ^C # halt syncing disks... done halting HALT instruction, PC: 000014 (MOV #1,12456) sim> q Goodbye moe.3-> exit exit Script done on Sun Jun 11 18:30:59 2000 Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA55064 for pups-liszt; Mon, 12 Jun 2000 23:39:41 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From cpg at aladdin.de Mon Jun 12 23:34:47 2000 From: cpg at aladdin.de (Christian Groessler) Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 14:34:47 +0100 Subject: problems booting 2.11_rp_unknown Message-ID: <412568FC.005055C9.00@saturn.aladdin.de> On 06/12/2000 01:33:37 AM GMT "Steven M. Schultz" wrote: > > Plan B is to specify the amount of memory directly. Simply saying > "set cpu 22B" tells the emulator to use 22 bit addressing - but it > does not say how much memory the system has (it's possible to have > 1mb of memory even though ~4mb is possible). > > Try using both "set cpu 22B" and "set cpu 2048K" - that worked here. > > It may well be that only "set cpu 2048K" is actually needed - I didn't > try that by itself. It works :-) :-) Thanks for your help! regards, chris Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA55279 for pups-liszt; Tue, 13 Jun 2000 00:14:34 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From tfb at cley.com Tue Jun 13 00:11:30 2000 From: tfb at cley.com (Tim Bradshaw) Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 15:11:30 +0100 (BST) Subject: PLEASE TAKE THIS ELSEWHERE (was Re: RX50 on RQDX3 on 2.11BSD) In-Reply-To: <20000609152354.A60849@dragon.nuxi.com> References: <000609165909.20200fd8@trailing-edge.com> <20000609152354.A60849@dragon.nuxi.com> Message-ID: <14660.61330.622418.671382@cley.com> * David O'Brien wrote: > This goes back to the UHS / PUPS discussion. I didn't vote so before, > but maybe it is time to separate the mail for the two. I agree that the > first posts were interesting in the historical insight that could be > gained. But this thread has turned into a rather long hardware > discussion applicable to only a handful of people that have this > hardware. > I do not mean to be mean, but it seems moving this to some PDP-11 list (I > guess one needs to be created) would be possible. Please don't. I love reading discussions of random old bits of hardware, and such discussions have gone on on the PUPS list for a long time. --tim From wkt at cs.adfa.edu.au Tue Jun 13 08:50:48 2000 From: wkt at cs.adfa.edu.au (Warren Toomey) Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 08:50:48 +1000 (EST) Subject: New Unix Heritage List, was Re: PLEASE TAKE THIS ELSEWHERE In-Reply-To: <20000609152354.A60849@dragon.nuxi.com> from "David O'Brien" at "Jun 9, 2000 3:23:55 pm" Message-ID: <200006122250.IAA24777@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> In article by David O'Brien: > I do not mean to be mean, but it seems moving this to some PDP-11 list (I > guess one needs to be created) would be possible. I will create one today or tomorrow: tuhs at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Unix Heritage pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au PDP-11 Unix You will all be subscribed to both lists. To be removed from a list, send e-mail to majordomo at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au with the line unsubscribe pups, or unsubscribe tuhs For those on the digested list (twice weekly), ditto except unsubscribe pups-digest, or unsubscribe tuhs-digest I will announce the new list(s) using them as a vehicle soon. That way, the announcement becomes some test mail :) Until then, tolerate the system-specific e-mail for just a bit longer. Cheers, Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA57976 for pups-liszt; Tue, 13 Jun 2000 08:57:48 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From obrien at NUXI.com Tue Jun 13 08:55:42 2000 From: obrien at NUXI.com (David O'Brien) Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 15:55:42 -0700 Subject: New Unix Heritage List, was Re: PLEASE TAKE THIS ELSEWHERE In-Reply-To: <200006122250.IAA24777@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>; from wkt@cs.adfa.edu.au on Tue, Jun 13, 2000 at 08:50:48AM +1000 References: <20000609152354.A60849@dragon.nuxi.com> <200006122250.IAA24777@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Message-ID: <20000612155542.G27421@dragon.nuxi.com> On Tue, Jun 13, 2000 at 08:50:48AM +1000, Warren Toomey wrote: > In article by David O'Brien: > > I do not mean to be mean, but it seems moving this to some PDP-11 list (I > > guess one needs to be created) would be possible. Hi Warren, I was wrong for my email. The feed back has been that people like the combined list. I have to admit I too like to see some of the PDP-11 info. I just felt the last thread had gotten off topic when it moved on to purely PDP-11 hardware. I have been told I was wrong. -- -- David (obrien at NUXI.com) Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA58018 for pups-liszt; Tue, 13 Jun 2000 09:08:23 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From wkt at cs.adfa.edu.au Tue Jun 13 09:05:56 2000 From: wkt at cs.adfa.edu.au (Warren Toomey) Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 09:05:56 +1000 (EST) Subject: New Unix Heritage List, was Re: PLEASE TAKE THIS ELSEWHERE In-Reply-To: <20000612155542.G27421@dragon.nuxi.com> from "David O'Brien" at "Jun 12, 2000 3:55:42 pm" Message-ID: <200006122305.JAA24939@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> In article by David O'Brien: > I was wrong for my email. The feed back has been that people like the > combined list. I have to admit I too like to see some of the PDP-11 > info. I just felt the last thread had gotten off topic when it moved on > to purely PDP-11 hardware. I have been told I was wrong. > -- David (obrien at NUXI.com) Everybody, here is a person who has courage & honesty. Thanks for that, David. However, I will still create two groups, because it will allow more specific content to be addressed where relevant. Cheers! Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA58497 for pups-liszt; Tue, 13 Jun 2000 10:45:22 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From wkt at cs.adfa.edu.au Tue Jun 13 10:40:04 2000 From: wkt at cs.adfa.edu.au (Warren Toomey) Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 10:40:04 +1000 (EST) Subject: New: PDP-11 Unix Mailing List Message-ID: <200006130040.KAA25608@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Hello, This is to inform you that you are subscribed to the PDP Unix Preservation Society's mailing list at pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au. This list is specifically to deal with running versions of Unix on the PDP-11 platforms. If you are not interested in this topic, please send some e-mail to majordomo at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au with the folllwing line in the body of the message: unsubscribe pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au If you are subscribed to the digest version, then you can unsubscribe by sending e-mail to majordomo at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au with the folllwing line in the body of the message: unsubscribe pups-digest at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Cheers! Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA60574 for pups-liszt; Tue, 13 Jun 2000 18:09:44 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From leypold at informatik.uni-tuebingen.de Tue Jun 13 18:07:05 2000 From: leypold at informatik.uni-tuebingen.de (Markus Leypold) Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 10:07:05 +0200 (CEST) Subject: PLEASE TAKE THIS ELSEWHERE (was Re: RX50 on RQDX3 on 2.11BSD) In-Reply-To: <14660.61330.622418.671382@cley.com> (message from Tim Bradshaw on Mon, 12 Jun 2000 15:11:30 +0100 (BST)) References: <000609165909.20200fd8@trailing-edge.com> <20000609152354.A60849@dragon.nuxi.com> <14660.61330.622418.671382@cley.com> Message-ID: <200006130807.KAA54220@informatik.uni-tuebingen.de> > Delivered-To: leypold at lesbains.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de > From: Tim Bradshaw > Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 15:11:30 +0100 (BST) > Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au > > * David O'Brien wrote: > > > This goes back to the UHS / PUPS discussion. I didn't vote so before, > > but maybe it is time to separate the mail for the two. I agree that the > > first posts were interesting in the historical insight that could be > > gained. But this thread has turned into a rather long hardware > > discussion applicable to only a handful of people that have this > > hardware. > > > I do not mean to be mean, but it seems moving this to some PDP-11 list (I > > guess one needs to be created) would be possible. > > Please don't. I love reading discussions of random old bits of > hardware, and such discussions have gone on on the PUPS list for a > long time. So do I. Actually I can understand the need of some participants to somehow reduce their mail volume. On the other side, it seems to be quite difficult to draw the exact line between on- and offtopic. Personally I try to filter as good as I can, and admittedly I do not read everything at once (and sometimes only weeks later). Regards -- Markus Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id FAA63516 for pups-liszt; Wed, 14 Jun 2000 05:00:47 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From grog at lemis.com Tue Jun 13 04:49:12 2000 From: grog at lemis.com (Greg Lehey) Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 11:49:12 -0700 Subject: Future Direction for PUPS and UHS In-Reply-To: <200006010025.KAA49471@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> References: <200006010025.KAA49471@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Message-ID: <20000612114912.G242@sydney.worldwide.lemis.com> On Thursday, 1 June 2000 at 10:25:34 +1000, Warren Toomey wrote: > All, > A discussion has started up on the PUPS volunteers list about the > future direction we should take in terms of the PUPS Archive. > > For those people new to this list, here's a bit of background. Originally > I set up the PDP-11 UNIX Preservation Society, the mailing list and the > Archive as that was my interest. > > Since then, we've attracted people with interests in other Unixes, such > as the 4BSDs, and other hardware platforms such as the Vax, the 68k Suns > etc. > > A while back, I changed the charter of the mailing list to encompass any > Unix-related questions, epecially to those systems which are now treated > as `ancient' by the mainstream, even if they are being maintained (e.g > 2.11BSD and the Quasijarus project). > > I also tried to create an umbrella organisation, the Unix Heritage Society > (http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/TUHS/), which would allow a number of groups > like PUPS and Quasijarus to form, and so that we could co-ordinate their > efforts. I must admit I haven't put much effort into this idea. > > Now, the PUPS Archive (PUPS in name, but it contains lots more than PDP-11 > stuff) is accumulating more and more stuff. Some people want to see a > mainly PDP-11 archive, other want to try and archive everything before it > goes off to /dev/null. > > So, I want to survey the mailing list here for ideas about the charter of > the Unix Heritage Society, and a way of setting up one or multiple archives, > mailing lists, web pages etc. as I originally envisioned. > > Questions: > - should we keep one archive, or have multiple archives? I don't really think it makes any difference. Structure one archive well, and you can get the individual platform archives simply by going down a directory level. The problem is, of course, that some software can be relevant to multiple platforms. > - if one, what structure (divisions on platforms, on vendors etc.) I'd be inclined to go for the hardware platform, but I haven't thought it through. Ultimately it would probably depend on the nature of the software that came in. > - if you have a keen interest in one platform/system, would you > consider becoming the leader of an interest group that could > sit under the Unix Heritage Society umbrella? No, I don't think so. But you might be able to twist my arm. > - do you want to set up and maintain a more specific archive, > mailing list, web site, that the Unix Heritage Society could > point to? No. > - do you want this current mailing list to stay ``all-encompassing'', > or would you rather have more specific lists? Personally I'd like it to be all-encompassing, but then, it's only a small part of the 1000 messages I get per day, and it's easy to delete messages I don't want to read. > [ now stands back for the deluge! ] That really happened, didn't it? Greg -- Finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers From wrking at tsoft.com Wed Jun 14 17:28:13 2000 From: wrking at tsoft.com (William King) Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 00:28:13 -0700 Subject: New: PDP-11 Unix Mailing List Message-ID: <000001bfd5d2$1934c380$bf01a8c0@dadaboom.com> Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA67358 for pups-liszt; Wed, 14 Jun 2000 21:39:21 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From lars at nocrew.org Wed Jun 14 19:32:07 2000 From: lars at nocrew.org (lars brinkhoff) Date: 14 Jun 2000 11:32:07 +0200 Subject: Help reviewing processor features In-Reply-To: Greg Lehey's message of "Mon, 12 Jun 2000 11:49:12 -0700" Message-ID: <85itvcbobs.fsf_-_@junk.nocrew.org> The following is source code taken verbatim from my PDP-11 support code for the GNU assembler. Any help correcting errors would be appreciated. This code tells the assembler what instruction set features to recognize depending on what processor the user wants to assemble for. Individual features can also be enabled, e.g. if a processor option is installed. The instruction set features are: cis Commersial instruction set (optional on all processors?). csm CSM instruction. eis Extended instruction set: MUL, DIV, ASH, ASHC, and all of limited-eis. fis KEV11 floating-point instructions. fpp FP-11 floating-point instructions. limited-eis Limited extended instruction set: RTT, MARK, SXT, XOR, SOB. mfpt MFPT instruction. multiproc Multiprocessor instructions: TSTSET, WRTLCK. mxps MFPS and MTPS instructions. spl SPLx instructions. ucode Microcode instructions: LDUB, MED, XFC. if (strncmp (buf, "a", 1) == 0) /* KA11 (11/15/20) */ return 1; /* no extensions */ else if (strncmp (buf, "b", 1) == 0) /* KB11 (11/45/50/55/70) */ return set_option ("eis") && set_option ("spl"); else if (strncmp (buf, "da", 2) == 0) /* KD11-A (11/35/40) */ return set_option ("limited-eis"); else if (strncmp (buf, "db", 2) == 0 || /* KD11-B (11/05/10) */ strncmp (buf, "dd", 2) == 0) /* KD11-D (11/04) */ return 1; /* no extensions */ else if (strncmp (buf, "de", 2) == 0) /* KD11-E (11/34) */ return set_option ("eis") && set_option ("mxps"); else if (strncmp (buf, "df", 2) == 0 || /* KD11-F (11/03) */ strncmp (buf, "dh", 2) == 0 || /* KD11-H (11/03) */ strncmp (buf, "dq", 2) == 0) /* KD11-Q (11/03) */ return set_option ("limited-eis") && set_option ("mxps"); else if (strncmp (buf, "dk", 2) == 0) /* KD11-K (11/60) */ return set_option ("eis") && set_option ("mxps") && set_option ("ucode"); else if (strncmp (buf, "dz", 2) == 0) /* KD11-Z (11/44) */ return set_option ("csm") && set_option ("eis") && set_option ("mfpt") && set_option ("mxps") && set_option ("spl"); else if (strncmp (buf, "f", 1) == 0) /* F11 (11/24) */ return set_option ("eis") && set_option ("mfpt") && set_option ("mxps"); else if (strncmp (buf, "j", 1) == 0) /* J11 (11/53/73/83/84/93/94)*/ return set_option ("csm") && set_option ("eis") && set_option ("mfpt") && set_option ("multiproc") && set_option ("mxps") && set_option ("spl"); else if (strncmp (buf, "t", 1) == 0) /* T11 (11/21) */ return set_option ("limited-eis") && set_option ("mxps"); From lars at nocrew.org Thu Jun 15 17:35:50 2000 From: lars at nocrew.org (lars brinkhoff) Date: 15 Jun 2000 09:35:50 +0200 Subject: Help reviewing PDP-11 model processors Message-ID: <85ya478kh5.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> The following message is a courtesy copy of an article that has been posted to alt.sys.pdp11 as well. Time for the second round of assembler source code review. If the user specifies a PDP-11 model to the assembler (e.g. -m11/45), this code is used to tell the assembler what processor to assemble for. Also, in one case (11/34a), the model enables FP-11 floating-point instructions. Should this be done for 11/34c too? If there are any other models with otherwise optional features installed, I'd like to know. if (strcmp (arg, "03") == 0) /* 11/03 */ return set_cpu_model ("kd11f"); /* KD11-F */ else if (strcmp (arg, "04") == 0) /* 11/04 */ return set_cpu_model ("kd11d"); /* KD11-D */ else if (strcmp (arg, "05") == 0 || /* 11/05 or 11/10 */ strcmp (arg, "10") == 0) return set_cpu_model ("kd11b"); /* KD11-B */ else if (strcmp (arg, "15") == 0 || /* 11/15 or 11/20 */ strcmp (arg, "20") == 0) return set_cpu_model ("ka11"); /* KA11 */ else if (strcmp (arg, "21") == 0) /* 11/21 */ return set_cpu_model ("t11"); /* T11 */ else if (strcmp (arg, "24") == 0) /* 11/24 */ return set_cpu_model ("f11"); /* F11 */ else if (strcmp (arg, "34") == 0) /* 11/34 */ return set_cpu_model ("kd11e"); /* KD11-E */ else if (strcmp (arg, "34a") == 0) /* 11/34a */ return set_cpu_model ("kd11e") && /* KD11-E with FP-11 */ set_option ("fpp"); else if (strcmp (arg, "35") == 0 || /* 11/35 or 11/40 */ strcmp (arg, "40") == 0) return set_cpu_model ("kd11da"); /* KD11-A */ else if (strcmp (arg, "44") == 0) /* 11/44 */ return set_cpu_model ("kd11dz"); /* KD11-Z */ else if (strcmp (arg, "45") == 0 || /* 11/45/50/55/70 */ strcmp (arg, "50") == 0 || strcmp (arg, "55") == 0 || strcmp (arg, "70") == 0) return set_cpu_model ("kb11"); /* KB11 */ else if (strcmp (arg, "60") == 0) /* 11/60 */ return set_cpu_model ("kd11k"); /* KD11-K */ else if (strcmp (arg, "53") == 0 || /* 11/53/73/83/84/93/94 */ strcmp (arg, "73") == 0 || strcmp (arg, "83") == 0 || strcmp (arg, "84") == 0 || strcmp (arg, "93") == 0 || strcmp (arg, "94") == 0) return set_cpu_model ("j11"); /* J11 */ Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA78381 for pups-liszt; Fri, 16 Jun 2000 11:09:19 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From SHOPPA at trailing-edge.com Fri Jun 16 11:06:31 2000 From: SHOPPA at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 21:06:31 -0400 Subject: Bunch of Unix tapes rescued Message-ID: <000615210631.262000b2@trailing-edge.com> On an Expedition to NJ Tuesday, I rescued about 3/4 of a ton of magtapes. Some of these will probably be interesting for the PUPS archive. In particular, I'm reading through seven of 'em tonight. If someone could explain to me how "Unix System V Release 2.0" and "Unix System III" work into the grand scheme of AT&T Unices already in the PUPS archive, and how 2.9.1 BSD might be different from (or the same as) the 2.9 BSD stuff already in the archive, I'd forever appreciate it :-). The first two tapes are AT&T Unix System V tapes for VAXen: Tape 1: AT&T 60462 Unix System V Release 2.0 VAX Version 2 for 11/780 and 11/750 TPName: Root and Selectables AT&T 60462 Dwg: j1p077c-3 List:1M1 TP No: OTP-1P550-01 IS: 2.0V2 Order: VX501404 Spec:000 Item:1 BPI 1600 Max Blksize: 05120 Files:0009 Date:01/13/86 Opr: jlc Drv: tu-2 Tape 2: AT&T 60463 Unix System V Release 2.0 VAX Version 2 for 11/780 and 11/750 TPName: USR File System AT&T 60463 Dwg: j1p077c-3 List:2m2 TP No: OTP-1P550-02 IS: 2.0V2 Order: UX501404 Spec:000 Item:1 BPI 1600 Max Blksize: 05120 Files:0009 Date:01/13/86 Opr: jlc Drv: tu-0 The third tape is UNIX System III from AT&T: Tape 3: UNIX* System III PDP 11/70,45 - 800 BPI Release Tape #1 *UNIX is a trademark of Bell Laboratories Restricted Rights Use Duplication or Disclosure is Subject To Restrictions Stated in your contract with American Telephone & Telegraph The Fourth and Fifth tape are either 2.9BSD or 2.9.1BSD (I can't tell the difference until I compare these tapes with the files already in the PUPS archives): Tape 4: Berkeley UNIX (Rev. 2.9.1) 2.9BSD Sun Nov 20 14:55:50 PST 1983 800 BPI HT/TM boot tape. For tar files skip the first 7 tape files with ``mt -t /dev/nrmt0 fsf 7'' Reel 1 of 2 Tape # Tape 5: Berkeley UNIX (Rev. 2.9.1) 2.9BSD Sun Nov 20 14:55:50 PST 1983 800 BPI Tar of /usr/src Reel 2 of 2 And Tapes 6 and 7 seem to be a complete distribution set of 4.2BSD, they ought to form a good replacement for the supposedly damaged and incomplete set in /Distributions/4bsd/4.2BSD. Tape 6: 4.2bsd VAX UNIX System 8/23/83 6 files on tape: 1 (boot stuff) 2 (mini root) 3 ((root dump) 4 (/sys) 5 (/usr) 6 (/usr/lib/vfont) last three are tar; 1600 bpi Tape 7: 4.2bsd VAX UNIX System 8/23/83 tape 2: 3 files on tape 1 (/usr/src) 2 (user contributed software) 3 (/usr/ingres) all files are tar; 1600 bpi Like I said, there's about 3/4 of a ton of tapes in total, I'm sure there are some other PUPS-related goodies deeper in the pile... -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa at trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA78462 for pups-liszt; Fri, 16 Jun 2000 11:34:34 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG Fri Jun 16 11:30:44 2000 From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov) Date: Thu, 15 Jun 00 20:30:44 CDT Subject: Bunch of Unix tapes rescued Message-ID: <0006160130.AA29885@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Tim Shoppa wrote: > And Tapes 6 and 7 seem to be a complete distribution set of 4.2BSD, > they ought to form a good replacement for the supposedly damaged and > incomplete set in /Distributions/4bsd/4.2BSD. > > [contents skipped, perfectly matches CSRG 4.2BSD dist] Yes, please read them and I'll put them in the archive. I maintain the 4BSD area. -- Michael Sokolov Harhan Engineering Laboratory Public Service Agent International Free Computing Task Force International Engineering and Science Task Force 615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY STE #4 DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA Phone: +1-214-824-7693 (Harhan Eng Lab office) E-mail: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (ARPA TCP/SMTP) (UUCP coming soon) Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA78621 for pups-liszt; Fri, 16 Jun 2000 12:06:55 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From wkt at cs.adfa.edu.au Fri Jun 16 12:04:11 2000 From: wkt at cs.adfa.edu.au (Warren Toomey) Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 12:04:11 +1000 (EST) Subject: Bunch of Unix tapes rescued In-Reply-To: <000615210631.262000b2@trailing-edge.com> from Tim Shoppa at "Jun 15, 2000 9: 6:31 pm" Message-ID: <200006160204.MAA46483@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> In article by Tim Shoppa: > On an Expedition to NJ Tuesday, I rescued about 3/4 of a ton of magtapes. > Tape 1: > > AT&T 60462 > Unix System V Release 2.0 > VAX Version 2 for 11/780 and 11/750 > TPName: Root and Selectables Yes please, I have sysVR0 in the archive at the moment. > Tape 2: > AT&T 60463 > Unix System V Release 2.0 > VAX Version 2 for 11/780 and 11/750 > TPName: USR File System Yes please. Don't have it yet! > Tape 3: > UNIX* System III > PDP 11/70,45 - 800 BPI Could be the same as Distributions/usdl/SysIII, but read it anyway! > And Tapes 6 and 7 seem to be a complete distribution set of 4.2BSD, > they ought to form a good replacement for the supposedly damaged and > incomplete set in /Distributions/4bsd/4.2BSD. Again, yes please!!! Thanks Tim. Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA79038 for pups-liszt; Fri, 16 Jun 2000 13:27:36 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From SHOPPA at trailing-edge.com Fri Jun 16 13:24:51 2000 From: SHOPPA at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 23:24:51 -0400 Subject: Bunch of Unix tapes rescued Message-ID: <000615232451.262000b2@trailing-edge.com> > Again, yes please!!! Would it be useful if I also uploaded GIF's or JPG's or TIFF's of scans of the labels on the original tapes? If so, is there any preference for the format of the scan? These are all (as Tommy Smothers would say) "the original virgin" tapes. Tim. Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA81018 for pups-liszt; Fri, 16 Jun 2000 18:07:47 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From leypold at informatik.uni-tuebingen.de Fri Jun 16 18:04:53 2000 From: leypold at informatik.uni-tuebingen.de (Markus Leypold) Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 10:04:53 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Bunch of Unix tapes rescued In-Reply-To: <000615210631.262000b2@trailing-edge.com> (message from Tim Shoppa on Thu, 15 Jun 2000 21:06:31 -0400) References: <000615210631.262000b2@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <200006160804.KAA12190@informatik.uni-tuebingen.de> WOW. Great. Super !! :-) ------------------ > Delivered-To: leypold at lesbains.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de > Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 21:06:31 -0400 > From: Tim Shoppa > Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au > > On an Expedition to NJ Tuesday, I rescued about 3/4 of a ton of magtapes. > Some of these will probably be interesting for the PUPS archive. In particular, > I'm reading through seven of 'em tonight. If someone could explain to > me how "Unix System V Release 2.0" and "Unix System III" work into the > grand scheme of AT&T Unices already in the PUPS archive, and how 2.9.1 BSD > might be different from (or the same as) the 2.9 BSD stuff already in the > archive, I'd forever appreciate it :-). > > The first two tapes are AT&T Unix System V tapes for VAXen: > > Tape 1: > > AT&T 60462 > Unix System V Release 2.0 > VAX Version 2 for 11/780 and 11/750 > TPName: Root and Selectables > > AT&T 60462 > Dwg: j1p077c-3 List:1M1 > TP No: OTP-1P550-01 IS: 2.0V2 > Order: VX501404 Spec:000 Item:1 > BPI 1600 Max Blksize: 05120 Files:0009 > Date:01/13/86 Opr: jlc Drv: tu-2 > > > Tape 2: > AT&T 60463 > Unix System V Release 2.0 > VAX Version 2 for 11/780 and 11/750 > TPName: USR File System > > AT&T 60463 > Dwg: j1p077c-3 List:2m2 > TP No: OTP-1P550-02 IS: 2.0V2 > Order: UX501404 Spec:000 Item:1 > BPI 1600 Max Blksize: 05120 Files:0009 > Date:01/13/86 Opr: jlc Drv: tu-0 > > > The third tape is UNIX System III from AT&T: > > Tape 3: > UNIX* System III > PDP 11/70,45 - 800 BPI > Release Tape #1 > *UNIX is a trademark of Bell Laboratories > > Restricted Rights > Use Duplication or Disclosure is Subject > To Restrictions Stated in your contract with > American Telephone & Telegraph > > The Fourth and Fifth tape are either 2.9BSD or 2.9.1BSD (I > can't tell the difference until I compare these tapes with the > files already in the PUPS archives): > > Tape 4: > > Berkeley UNIX (Rev. 2.9.1) 2.9BSD > Sun Nov 20 14:55:50 PST 1983 > 800 BPI HT/TM boot tape. For tar files > skip the first 7 tape files with > ``mt -t /dev/nrmt0 fsf 7'' > Reel 1 of 2 Tape # > > Tape 5: > Berkeley UNIX (Rev. 2.9.1) 2.9BSD > Sun Nov 20 14:55:50 PST 1983 > 800 BPI Tar of /usr/src > Reel 2 of 2 > > And Tapes 6 and 7 seem to be a complete distribution set of 4.2BSD, > they ought to form a good replacement for the supposedly damaged and > incomplete set in /Distributions/4bsd/4.2BSD. > > Tape 6: > 4.2bsd VAX UNIX System 8/23/83 > 6 files on tape: > 1 (boot stuff) 2 (mini root) > 3 ((root dump) 4 (/sys) 5 (/usr) > 6 (/usr/lib/vfont) > last three are tar; 1600 bpi > > Tape 7: > 4.2bsd VAX UNIX System 8/23/83 > tape 2: 3 files on tape > 1 (/usr/src) > 2 (user contributed software) > 3 (/usr/ingres) > all files are tar; 1600 bpi > > Like I said, there's about 3/4 of a ton of tapes in total, I'm sure there > are some other PUPS-related goodies deeper in the pile... > > -- > Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa at trailing-edge.com > Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ > 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 > Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 > > Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA81036 for pups-liszt; Fri, 16 Jun 2000 18:10:53 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From leypold at informatik.uni-tuebingen.de Fri Jun 16 18:08:07 2000 From: leypold at informatik.uni-tuebingen.de (Markus Leypold) Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 10:08:07 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Bunch of Unix tapes rescued In-Reply-To: <000615232451.262000b2@trailing-edge.com> (message from Tim Shoppa on Thu, 15 Jun 2000 23:24:51 -0400) References: <000615232451.262000b2@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <200006160808.KAA12196@informatik.uni-tuebingen.de> > Delivered-To: leypold at lesbains.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de > Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 23:24:51 -0400 > From: Tim Shoppa > Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au > > > Again, yes please!!! > > Would it be useful if I also uploaded GIF's or JPG's or TIFF's of scans > of the labels on the original tapes? If so, is there any preference for > the format of the scan? These are all (as Tommy Smothers > would say) "the original virgin" tapes. Well, I'm presently only a client of the archive, so to say, but why not use png (the gif replacement advocated by the FSF). Better not use GIF for all this licensing issues. And as far as I see, png can be shown by -- well -- Netscape, whereas TIFF requires a plugin or an external viewer. Regards - Markus Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA81738 for pups-liszt; Fri, 16 Jun 2000 21:24:43 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From SHOPPA at trailing-edge.com Fri Jun 16 21:21:56 2000 From: SHOPPA at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 7:21:56 -0400 Subject: Yet Another "where does it fit" question Message-ID: <000616072156.262000b2@trailing-edge.com> OK, I started sorting through some more piles of tapes, and I found a one more thing that I'm-not-quite-sure-where-it-fits: Two tapes labeled "Vol 1 of 2" and "Vol 2 of 2" and then "2.10.2 SMS Unix". Steven, does this mean you know what's on this and how it's different than the 2.10 and 2.10.1 stuff already in the archive? :-) Terry didn't remember... Also, more goodies that may (or may not) be appropriate to add: * A 4.3BSD-Reno VAX tape dated "1/2/91". I suppose I have to get down on my hands and knees and see how this differs from the version dated "30 Jul 90" currently in Distributions/4bsd/4.3BSD-Reno. This has the original UCB stickers on it. * A set of tar files on a tape claiming to be the "4.4BSD snapshot 4/1/92". Is PUPS/TUHS collecting anything anything this late? Is something like this already in Kirk's archive? Tim. Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA81919 for pups-liszt; Fri, 16 Jun 2000 22:03:25 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG Fri Jun 16 21:59:26 2000 From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov) Date: Fri, 16 Jun 00 06:59:26 CDT Subject: Yet Another "where does it fit" question Message-ID: <0006161159.AA00544@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Tim Shoppa wrote: > * A 4.3BSD-Reno VAX tape dated "1/2/91". I suppose I have to get down > on my hands and knees and see how this differs from the version dated > "30 Jul 90" currently in Distributions/4bsd/4.3BSD-Reno. This has > the original UCB stickers on it. Yes. > * A set of tar files on a tape claiming to be the "4.4BSD snapshot > 4/1/92". Is PUPS/TUHS collecting anything anything this late? Is > something like this already in Kirk's archive? Kirk, you'll have to fill me in on this one. Is this the "4.4BSD-Alpha" I've seen mentioned in some places? In any case this is not on Kirk's CD-ROMs and I'll include it in my 4BSD collection. -- Michael Sokolov Harhan Engineering Laboratory Public Service Agent International Free Computing Task Force International Engineering and Science Task Force 615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY STE #4 DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA Phone: +1-214-824-7693 (Harhan Eng Lab office) E-mail: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (ARPA TCP/SMTP) (UUCP coming soon) Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA82759 for pups-liszt; Sat, 17 Jun 2000 00:09:54 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From SHOPPA at trailing-edge.com Sat Jun 17 00:07:07 2000 From: SHOPPA at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 10:07:07 -0400 Subject: 4.4BSD-Alpha Message-ID: <000616100707.2620009e@trailing-edge.com> >> * A set of tar files on a tape claiming to be the "4.4BSD snapshot >> 4/1/92". Is PUPS/TUHS collecting anything anything this late? Is >> something like this already in Kirk's archive? >Kirk, you'll have to fill me in on this one. Is this the "4.4BSD-Alpha" I've >seen mentioned in some places? In any case this is not on Kirk's CD-ROMs and >I'll include it in my 4BSD collection. I found a separate tape, labeled "August 23, 1992", with a matching cover letter (signed by Kirk McKusick) saying "This is a distribution tape for the 4.4BSD-Alpha release ... The binaries and kernel on the tape support the HP 9000/300 68000-based workstations...". Is this the holy grail? I would guess the "4.4BSD snapshot 4/1/92" is pre-release. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa at trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA84172 for pups-liszt; Sat, 17 Jun 2000 00:40:20 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG Sat Jun 17 00:35:55 2000 From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov) Date: Fri, 16 Jun 00 09:35:55 CDT Subject: 4.2BSD dist in the TUHS/PUPS archive: resolution Message-ID: <0006161435.AA00708@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Quasijarus Consortium members and TUHS/PUPS archive users, Since early fall 1998 the archive has had an incomplete distribution of 4.2BSD reconstructed from some bogus tape images from Per Andersson. This morning Tim Shoppa read an authentic 4.2BSD tape dist. I compared it with the incomplete dist in the archive and found that it is the same dist, Tim Shoppa's version is complete and correct, and Per Andersson's version was incomplete. The files that were in the archive were correct. I added the missing files this morning, making the 4.2BSD dist in the archive complete. It is in Distributions/4bsd/4.2BSD, it is a superset of what was there before (because what was there before was just missing some files), and it identically matches Tim Shoppa's copy in his home directory. I left Per Andersson's original (bogus) files in the Per_Andersson subdirectory. Warren, it's up to you if you want to keep or delete them. -- Michael Sokolov Harhan Engineering Laboratory Public Service Agent International Free Computing Task Force International Engineering and Science Task Force 615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY STE #4 DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA Phone: +1-214-824-7693 (Harhan Eng Lab office) E-mail: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (ARPA TCP/SMTP) (UUCP coming soon) Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA84202 for pups-liszt; Sat, 17 Jun 2000 00:48:04 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG Sat Jun 17 00:44:07 2000 From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov) Date: Fri, 16 Jun 00 09:44:07 CDT Subject: 4.4BSD-Alpha Message-ID: <0006161444.AA00776@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Tim Shoppa wrote: > I found a separate tape, labeled "August 23, 1992", with a matching cover > letter (signed by Kirk McKusick) saying "This is a distribution tape > for the 4.4BSD-Alpha release ... The binaries and kernel on the > tape support the HP 9000/300 68000-based workstations...". Is this > the holy grail? OK, I dunno whether it qualifies as "the holy grail" or not, but yes, it is the 4.4BSD-Alpha dist. > I would guess the "4.4BSD snapshot 4/1/92" is pre-release. OK, just upload both if you can, I'll be happy to put them in the archive and I'm sure Warren will be too. -- Michael Sokolov Harhan Engineering Laboratory Public Service Agent International Free Computing Task Force International Engineering and Science Task Force 615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY STE #4 DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA Phone: +1-214-824-7693 (Harhan Eng Lab office) E-mail: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (ARPA TCP/SMTP) (UUCP coming soon) Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA84892 for pups-liszt; Sat, 17 Jun 2000 02:42:25 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From jasomill at shaffstall.com Sat Jun 17 02:31:18 2000 From: jasomill at shaffstall.com (Jason T. Miller) Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 11:31:18 -0500 (EST) Subject: RX50 vocoder timing; FreeBSD kernel woes Message-ID: Sorry in advance if you unintentionally deleted this message because of the topic, I'm an incorrigable smart-arse and couldn't resist. My other idea was ILOVEYOU, but that's been done before... > This thread has gotten *way* beyond what I (and I'll bet many others) > read this list for. The initiator of this post was yours truly. I have been silet since this post. I hate politics. I figured, "just let it simmer down and then rationally respond." I hate flamefesten. Sorry. Can't please everybody all the time. Hey, I don't even try, most of the time. I find that sitting on the fence can be quite an uncomfortable position to be in, especially if you're on one of the fenceposts. But, wie immer, I digress. I didn't mean to crowd your (that is, the royal "your") mailbox with my hardware woes. I had some issues, directly related to my _usage_ of PDP-11 UNIX, and, insofar as both the mentioned PDP-11 mailing list and the DECUS PDP-11 list on eisner.decus.org are both ghost towns, and several members of this mailing list seem to know quite a bit about both the hardware platform and the software I choose to run (2.11BSD), I dreamt of things that never were and said "why not." Thanks to the knowledge of fellow list-members, my questions were answered, my problem was solved, and the result is now available in the PUPS archive under Tools/Disks/rx50-FreeBSD.tar.gz (no comments on code quality to the group, please; that would be off-topic [read: embarassing] :) Qs and Cs to jasomill at indiana.edu welcome), which is useful to me and may possibly be of some interest to other PDP-11 UNIX hobbyists trying to solve the same problem. I read the entire PUPS mailing list archive before making my first post. I've noticed that the top three platform-specific topics seem to be (in order of appearance): 1) emulator software 2) VAX hardware 3) PDP hardware I don't use an emulator and I don't have a VAX (though I want one very very much, but admittably to run VMS mostly), but the discussions don't bother me. As a matter of fact, some of them interest me; those that don't, I skip. Anyway, just an observation. I know it's not the PHPS, but I can not be dissuaded in my belief that actually _using_ the systems is a vital part of a living preservation effort, and using them without functional hardware is a bit difficult, emulators notwithstanding. But please don't deactivate me :), I'll read a UHS list and a PUPS list and a VAX list and an RT-PC list (I've been wanting to get my hands on one of those buggers for awhile, actually), desirous of everything at the same time, and try my best not to yawn and say commonplace things (apologizes to Jack Kerouac). Thanks again for help and interesting discussion, to all parties involved, mad to talk or less so. What about archiving PDP hardware information? I don't mean discussing obscure timing details of RK05 controllers or anything, but having a section of the archive for random hardware tidbits re: PDP. It's not _directly_ related to UNIX preservation, but it'd be a boon to PDP UNIX users (not to mention keeping list traffic down in re: these things), and its space requirements are miniscule. Maybe wait until the PDP-specific stuff is split off, and create a directory. I'd be happy to maintain it (I'm also attempting to contact DEC ne Compaq about getting some legacy docs released; those, of course, would be included; no, that's not what Mentec bought, I don't think, that's RSX and RSTS/E and RT-11, maybe even Ultrix. They provide engineering support to DEC PDP-11 customers as well as compatible hardware, but I believe Compaq still owns the copyrights to the Digital hardware documentation. Not 100% sure though). Once again, sorry, once again, thanks, and in closing, AWWWW, jasomill Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id FAA87825 for pups-liszt; Sat, 17 Jun 2000 05:14:27 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From obrien at NUXI.com Sat Jun 17 05:11:28 2000 From: obrien at NUXI.com (David O'Brien) Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 12:11:28 -0700 Subject: 4.4BSD-Alpha In-Reply-To: <0006161444.AA00776@ivan.Harhan.ORG>; from msokolov@ivan.Harhan.ORG on Fri, Jun 16, 2000 at 09:44:07AM -0500 References: <0006161444.AA00776@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Message-ID: <20000616121128.A35577@dragon.nuxi.com> It may have already been discussed before, but here is the list of distirbutions on McKusick's "The CSRG Archives" 4-CD set: 1BSD, 2BSD, 3BSD, 2.9pucc, 2.10, 2.79, 2.8, 2.9, 4.0, 4.1, 4.1a, 4.1c.1, 4.1c.2, 4.1.snap, 4.2, 4.3, VM.snapshot.1, VM.snapshot.2, 4.3Tahoe, 4.3Reno, Net/1, Net/2, 4.4, 4.4-Lite1, 4.4-Lite2, and /usr/src SCCS files. -- -- David (obrien at NUXI.com) Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id FAA87954 for pups-liszt; Sat, 17 Jun 2000 05:31:49 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG Sat Jun 17 05:27:54 2000 From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov) Date: Fri, 16 Jun 00 14:27:54 CDT Subject: 4.4BSD-Alpha Message-ID: <0006161927.AA01375@ivan.Harhan.ORG> David O'Brien wrote: > It may have already been discussed before, but here is the list of > distirbutions on McKusick's "The CSRG Archives" 4-CD set: > > 1BSD, 2BSD, 3BSD, 2.9pucc, 2.10, 2.79, 2.8, 2.9, 4.0, 4.1, 4.1a, 4.1c.1, > 4.1c.2, 4.1.snap, 4.2, 4.3, VM.snapshot.1, VM.snapshot.2, 4.3Tahoe, > 4.3Reno, Net/1, Net/2, 4.4, 4.4-Lite1, 4.4-Lite2, and /usr/src SCCS > files. I know this of course, I have one. -- Michael Sokolov Harhan Engineering Laboratory Public Service Agent International Free Computing Task Force International Engineering and Science Task Force 615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY STE #4 DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA Phone: +1-214-824-7693 (Harhan Eng Lab office) E-mail: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (ARPA TCP/SMTP) (UUCP coming soon) From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG Sat Jun 17 06:12:55 2000 From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov) Date: Fri, 16 Jun 00 15:12:55 CDT Subject: 4.4BSD-Alpha in the TUHS/PUPS archive 4BSD area Message-ID: <0006162012.AA01527@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Quasijarus Consortium members and TUHS/PUPS archive users, Today Tim Shoppa has read the HP300 4.4BSD-Alpha distribution on a 9-track 6250 BPI tape and I have just put it in the archive. It is in Distributions/4bsd/4.4BSD-Alpha Of course we generally don't do 4.4BSD, but we do include it in the archival and preservation section of our project. -- Michael Sokolov Harhan Engineering Laboratory Public Service Agent International Free Computing Task Force International Engineering and Science Task Force 615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY STE #4 DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA Phone: +1-214-824-7693 (Harhan Eng Lab office) E-mail: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (ARPA TCP/SMTP) (UUCP coming soon) Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA88281 for pups-liszt; Sat, 17 Jun 2000 06:18:49 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From SHOPPA at trailing-edge.com Sat Jun 17 06:16:00 2000 From: SHOPPA at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 16:16:00 -0400 Subject: The Unix History Graphing Project... Message-ID: <000616161600.262000b2@trailing-edge.com> >It may have already been discussed before, but here is the list of >distirbutions on McKusick's "The CSRG Archives" 4-CD set: > >1BSD, 2BSD, 3BSD, 2.9pucc, 2.10, 2.79, 2.8, 2.9, 4.0, 4.1, 4.1a, 4.1c.1, >4.1c.2, 4.1.snap, 4.2, 4.3, VM.snapshot.1, VM.snapshot.2, 4.3Tahoe, >4.3Reno, Net/1, Net/2, 4.4, 4.4-Lite1, 4.4-Lite2, and /usr/src SCCS >files. That suggestion got me looking at "The Unix History Graphing Project" at http://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/Unix_History/index.html Is there a readable (meaning "not source code") history of *.*BSD on the McCusick CD set? Most of the comment-type entries in the Unix History Graphing Project for the BSD releases are pretty good, but not real complete. Do any of the Ultrix versions show up somewhere in the The Unix History Graphing project? I know that they're offshoots from 2BSD and 4BSD, but I wouldn't mind seeing someone annotate when they shot off and what was changed/added/deleted. (Did I just volunteer?!?) Another history question: Anyone know if there's any 2.9BSD-Seismo distributions kicking around? Tim. Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA88374 for pups-liszt; Sat, 17 Jun 2000 06:45:23 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG Sat Jun 17 06:41:27 2000 From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov) Date: Fri, 16 Jun 00 15:41:27 CDT Subject: The Unix History Graphing Project... Message-ID: <0006162041.AA01624@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Tim Shoppa wrote: > Is there a readable (meaning "not source code") history of *.*BSD > on the McCusick CD set? Most of the comment-type entries in the > Unix History Graphing Project for the BSD releases are pretty good, > but not real complete. The line of True UNIX development is straight: V6 -> V7 -> 3BSD -> 4.0BSD -> 4.1BSD -> 4.2BSD -> 4.3BSD -> 4.3BSD-Tahoe -> 4.3BSD-Quasijarus There is also a branch which I call Bostic BSD, resulting from Keith Bostic taking over CSRG and killing it, that goes: 4.BSD-Tahoe -> Net/1 -> 4.3BSD-Reno -> Net/2 -> 4.4BSD-Alpha -> 4.4BSD 1BSD and 2BSD were collections of userland bits without a kernel or a compiler toolchain or anything else that defines a system and its hardware platform, so it's generally incorrect to consider them as versions of UNIX, much less as versions of PDP-11 UNIX. They were bits to be added to an existing UNIX system, which could conceptualy be anything, although V6 and V7 for the PDP-11 were the intended targets. Berkeley UNIX never ran on PDP-11s, only on VAXen, that is, there has never been a Berkeley UNIX kernel or compiler toolchain for the PDP-11, only for the VAX. As for 2.xBSD, that's an ex-post-facto backport of BSD UNIX to PDP-11s, ex-post-facto in the sense that it was made after the torch of UNIX passed from PDP-11 to VAX, and is a human-alien hybrid of PDP-11 V7 on steroids with dumbed down VAX 4.xBSD. It comes nowhere near to mainline UNIX or mainline BSD. -- Michael Sokolov Harhan Engineering Laboratory Public Service Agent International Free Computing Task Force International Engineering and Science Task Force 615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY STE #4 DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA Phone: +1-214-824-7693 (Harhan Eng Lab office) E-mail: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (ARPA TCP/SMTP) (UUCP coming soon) Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id HAA88616 for pups-liszt; Sat, 17 Jun 2000 07:47:06 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From tls at rek.tjls.com Sat Jun 17 07:44:08 2000 From: tls at rek.tjls.com (Thor Lancelot Simon) Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 17:44:08 -0400 Subject: The Unix History Graphing Project... In-Reply-To: <0006162041.AA01624@ivan.Harhan.ORG>; from msokolov@ivan.Harhan.ORG on Fri, Jun 16, 2000 at 03:41:27PM -0500 References: <0006162041.AA01624@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Message-ID: <20000616174408.A20743@rek.tjls.com> On Fri, Jun 16, 2000 at 03:41:27PM -0500, Michael Sokolov wrote: > Tim Shoppa wrote: > > > Is there a readable (meaning "not source code") history of *.*BSD > > on the McCusick CD set? Most of the comment-type entries in the > > Unix History Graphing Project for the BSD releases are pretty good, > > but not real complete. > > The line of True UNIX development is straight: > > V6 -> V7 -> 3BSD -> 4.0BSD -> 4.1BSD -> 4.2BSD -> 4.3BSD -> 4.3BSD-Tahoe -> > 4.3BSD-Quasijarus > > There is also a branch which I call Bostic BSD, resulting from Keith Bostic > taking over CSRG and killing it, that goes: [... and more spewage ...] I would like to ask that Mr. Solokov's association with the PUPS and TUHS projects be ended if he can not restrain himself from posting inflammatory material of this nature on the lists. Thor Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA88970 for pups-liszt; Sat, 17 Jun 2000 09:05:53 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From pups at mrynet.com Sat Jun 17 09:02:56 2000 From: pups at mrynet.com (PUPS mailing list) Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 16:02:56 -0700 Subject: The Unix History Graphing Project... Message-ID: <200006162302.QAA73794@mrynet.com> > On Fri, Jun 16, 2000 at 03:41:27PM -0500, Michael Sokolov wrote: > > Tim Shoppa wrote: > > > > > Is there a readable (meaning "not source code") history of *.*BSD > > > on the McCusick CD set? Most of the comment-type entries in the > > > Unix History Graphing Project for the BSD releases are pretty good, > > > but not real complete. > > > > The line of True UNIX development is straight: > > > > V6 -> V7 -> 3BSD -> 4.0BSD -> 4.1BSD -> 4.2BSD -> 4.3BSD -> 4.3BSD-Tahoe -> > > 4.3BSD-Quasijarus > > > > There is also a branch which I call Bostic BSD, resulting from Keith Bostic > > taking over CSRG and killing it, that goes: > > [... and more spewage ...] > > I would like to ask that Mr. Solokov's association with the PUPS and TUHS > projects be ended if he can not restrain himself from posting inflammatory > material of this nature on the lists. > > Thor I second some form of censure here. I already filter this person's email when I can, via my mail handler and client, but I am still subjected to his non-constructive constant arrogance when included in other's replies. Obviously I find his tact, social skills, and ethics reprehensible or I wouldn't have bothered taking the measures I have. Simply put, people are welcome to their opinions, but his are bordering anti-social and are downright rude and insulting. Everyone is welcome to opinions and points-of-view, but having such shoved in faces at every opportunity is intolerable. Regards, Scott G. Taylor Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA89002 for pups-liszt; Sat, 17 Jun 2000 09:13:49 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From obrien at NUXI.com Sat Jun 17 09:10:53 2000 From: obrien at NUXI.com (David O'Brien) Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 16:10:53 -0700 Subject: The Unix History Graphing Project... In-Reply-To: <20000616174408.A20743@rek.tjls.com>; from tls@rek.tjls.com on Fri, Jun 16, 2000 at 05:44:08PM -0400 References: <0006162041.AA01624@ivan.Harhan.ORG> <20000616174408.A20743@rek.tjls.com> Message-ID: <20000616161053.F35577@dragon.nuxi.com> On Fri, Jun 16, 2000 at 05:44:08PM -0400, Thor Lancelot Simon wrote: > > > Most of the comment-type entries in the Unix History Graphing > > > Project for the BSD releases are pretty good, but not real > > > complete. > > > > The line of True UNIX development is straight: > > > > V6 -> V7 -> 3BSD -> 4.0BSD -> 4.1BSD -> 4.2BSD -> 4.3BSD -> 4.3BSD-Tahoe -> > > 4.3BSD-Quasijarus > > > > There is also a branch which I call Bostic BSD, resulting from Keith Bostic > > taking over CSRG and killing it, that goes: > > [... and more spewage ...] > > I would like to ask that Mr. Solokov's association with the PUPS and TUHS > projects be ended if he can not restrain himself from posting inflammatory > material of this nature on the lists. I have to agree. From his emails, Mr. Solokov is a rather rabid individual. Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA89013 for pups-liszt; Sat, 17 Jun 2000 09:14:36 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From obrien at NUXI.com Sat Jun 17 09:11:45 2000 From: obrien at NUXI.com (David O'Brien) Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 16:11:45 -0700 Subject: 4.4BSD-Alpha In-Reply-To: <0006161927.AA01375@ivan.Harhan.ORG>; from msokolov@ivan.Harhan.ORG on Fri, Jun 16, 2000 at 02:27:54PM -0500 References: <0006161927.AA01375@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Message-ID: <20000616161145.G35577@dragon.nuxi.com> On Fri, Jun 16, 2000 at 02:27:54PM -0500, Michael Sokolov wrote: > I know this of course, I have one. Of course you do, but others may not. So why are you wasting my disk space with this email? Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA89383 for pups-liszt; Sat, 17 Jun 2000 10:24:15 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From apgarcia at hackaholic.org Sat Jun 17 10:16:48 2000 From: apgarcia at hackaholic.org (A. P. Garcia) Date: 17 Jun 2000 00:16:48 +0000 Subject: The Unix History Graphing Project... In-Reply-To: "David O'Brien"'s message of "Fri, 16 Jun 2000 16:10:53 -0700" References: <0006162041.AA01624@ivan.Harhan.ORG> <20000616174408.A20743@rek.tjls.com> <20000616161053.F35577@dragon.nuxi.com> Message-ID: "David O'Brien" writes: > > I would like to ask that Mr. Solokov's association with the PUPS and TUHS > > projects be ended if he can not restrain himself from posting inflammatory > > material of this nature on the lists. > > I have to agree. From his emails, Mr. Solokov is a rather rabid individual. No, I agree with whomever it was - I think Patrick Henry - that said something like "I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." You can always send his mail to /dev/null if you don't like it. Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA89414 for pups-liszt; Sat, 17 Jun 2000 10:31:43 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From wkt at cs.adfa.edu.au Sat Jun 17 10:28:59 2000 From: wkt at cs.adfa.edu.au (Warren Toomey) Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 10:28:59 +1000 (EST) Subject: PUPS/TUHS should not be divisive In-Reply-To: <20000616174408.A20743@rek.tjls.com> from Thor Lancelot Simon at "Jun 16, 2000 5:44: 8 pm" Message-ID: <200006170028.KAA55686@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> In article by Thor Lancelot Simon: > On Fri, Jun 16, 2000 at 03:41:27PM -0500, Michael Sokolov wrote: > > The line of True UNIX development is straight: > > V6 -> V7 -> 3BSD -> 4.0BSD -> 4.1BSD -> 4.2BSD -> 4.3BSD -> 4.3BSD-Tahoe -> > > 4.3BSD-Quasijarus > I would like to ask that Mr. Solokov's association with the PUPS and TUHS > projects be ended if he can not restrain himself from posting inflammatory > material of this nature on the lists. > Thor While I do not agree with Michael's particular beliefs about True UNIX, as I wear the hat of UNIX Heritage Society, I want to encourage his efforts on 4.3BSD-Quasijarus, as I do with 2.11BSD, NetBSD etc etc. Michael, in order to ease the tension in the mailing lists, would it be possible for you to write a web (or ftp) page describing your beliefs, so that interested people can go read it. For example, in future mailings you could say: As you know, I believe True UNIX flows from V6 to 4.3BSD but not to 4.4BSD, see http://xxx.xxx.xxx for details. I'm not asking you to moderate your beliefs or stop espousing them, but I would rather keep the mailing list inclusive rather than divisive. For the other readers of this list, it is not possible to stop subscribers from saying whatever they want. Therefore, if you feel offended, please try to take any strong exchange of views out of the list. For example, you might post something like: In article by Joe Bloe: > I think turtles are ugly. I disagree violently with this person's views, and I'll take this discussion off-line, so as to keep in charter with the mailing list. I will also change the mailing lists's on-line charter to be inclusive and not divisive. Finally, we now have pups@ (PDP-11 stuff) and tuhs@ (generic Unix stuff, which includes discussion on the Archive). The original posting, and all the followups, should have gone to tuhs@, so please send your mails to the right list!!! Thank you, Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA89425 for pups-liszt; Sat, 17 Jun 2000 10:32:05 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From SHOPPA at trailing-edge.com Sat Jun 17 10:29:13 2000 From: SHOPPA at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 20:29:13 -0400 Subject: Yet Another "where does it fit" question Message-ID: <000616202913.262000b0@trailing-edge.com> Yesterday I asked: >Two tapes labeled "Vol 1 of 2" and "Vol 2 of 2" and then "2.10.2 SMS >Unix". Steven, does this mean you know what's on this and how it's >different than the 2.10 and 2.10.1 stuff already in the archive? :-) Terry >didn't remember... Now that I've read the tapes, this is a 1990-ish step halfway between 2.10.1 and 2.11, as developed by Steven Schultz (and debugged by Terry on his 11/70, judging from the comments.) Is this something worthwhile to put in the archive? At the moment, looking at the timeline of PDP-11 Unices currently in the archive, we have at the "fairly recent" end: 2.9 from 1983 2.9.1BSD from 1983 2.10BSD from 1987 2.10.1BSD from 1989 2.11BSD from the past year Would it be a worthwhile thing to put 2.10.2 up as an intermediate step filling in the ten year gap between 2.10.1 and the current 2.11? I'm worried that whenever I find a metric buttload of Unix tapes that my proposals of adding everything in them to the archive may just be adding too much volume that folks simply aren't interested in. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa at trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA89441 for pups-liszt; Sat, 17 Jun 2000 10:33:58 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From wkt at cs.adfa.edu.au Sat Jun 17 10:07:24 2000 From: wkt at cs.adfa.edu.au (Warren Toomey) Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 10:07:24 +1000 (EST) Subject: Digest? In-Reply-To: <394A3D26.86E79289@home.com> from Robert Porter at "Jun 16, 2000 7:43:50 am" Message-ID: <200006170007.KAA55558@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> In article by Robert Porter: > Is there a way to unsubscribe from the PUPS/TUHS lists and subscribe to some > sort of digest? I just can't handle this amount of traffic (much more email > than I get otherwise). Send mail to majordomo at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au with the lines: unsubscribe tuhs unsubscribe pups subscribe pups-digest subscribe tuhs-digest Cheers! Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA89882 for pups-liszt; Sat, 17 Jun 2000 12:12:25 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From sms at moe.2bsd.com Sat Jun 17 12:09:00 2000 From: sms at moe.2bsd.com (Steven M. Schultz) Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 19:09:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Yet Another "where does it fit" question Message-ID: <200006170209.TAA24691@moe.2bsd.com> Hi -- I hope I'm in the right mailing list :) > From: Tim Shoppa > Yesterday I asked: > > >Two tapes labeled "Vol 1 of 2" and "Vol 2 of 2" and then "2.10.2 SMS > >Unix". Steven, does this mean you know what's on this and how it's > >different than the 2.10 and 2.10.1 stuff already in the archive? :-) Terry > >didn't remember... > > Now that I've read the tapes, this is a 1990-ish step halfway between > 2.10.1 and 2.11, as developed by Steven Schultz (and debugged by > Terry on his 11/70, judging from the comments.) Is this something You beat me to it - I was going to respond earlier but got distracted ("real work" the boss wanted ;)). It's more than half way to 2.11 though. Probably closer to 80 or 90%. The work had been going on for a year or more since 2.10.1 came out and I was all set to distribute it on my own when one of the last folks at the CSRG said it should be 2.11 (based on the size and number of changes) and a BSD release with USENIX handling the license issues and distribution. There aren't many major differences between 2.10.2SMS and what would be 2.11BSD a few months later (towards the end of 1990 or beginning of 1991). > timeline of PDP-11 Unices currently in the archive, we have at the > "fairly recent" end: > > 2.9 from 1983 > 2.9.1BSD from 1983 > 2.10BSD from 1987 > 2.10.1BSD from 1989 2.10.2.SMS goes till about the end of 1990 or beginning of 1991 > Would it be a worthwhile thing to put 2.10.2 up as an intermediate > step filling in the ten year gap between 2.10.1 and the current 2.11? I think it would be - I didn't save a copy for myself ;) A "diff -r" of that against the first 2.11 tape (which I think I might have somewhere) would be interesting to do some time. Steven Schultz sms at moe.2bsd.com Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA90344 for pups-liszt; Sat, 17 Jun 2000 13:22:56 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From tls at rek.tjls.com Sat Jun 17 13:20:04 2000 From: tls at rek.tjls.com (Thor Lancelot Simon) Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 23:20:04 -0400 Subject: PUPS/TUHS should not be divisive In-Reply-To: <200006170028.KAA55686@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>; from wkt@cs.adfa.edu.au on Sat, Jun 17, 2000 at 10:28:59AM +1000 References: <20000616174408.A20743@rek.tjls.com> <200006170028.KAA55686@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Message-ID: <20000616232004.A4545@rek.tjls.com> On Sat, Jun 17, 2000 at 10:28:59AM +1000, Warren Toomey wrote: > In article by Thor Lancelot Simon: > > On Fri, Jun 16, 2000 at 03:41:27PM -0500, Michael Sokolov wrote: > > > The line of True UNIX development is straight: > > > V6 -> V7 -> 3BSD -> 4.0BSD -> 4.1BSD -> 4.2BSD -> 4.3BSD -> 4.3BSD-Tahoe -> > > > 4.3BSD-Quasijarus > > I would like to ask that Mr. Solokov's association with the PUPS and TUHS > > projects be ended if he can not restrain himself from posting inflammatory > > material of this nature on the lists. > > Thor > > While I do not agree with Michael's particular beliefs about True UNIX, as > I wear the hat of UNIX Heritage Society, I want to encourage his efforts on > 4.3BSD-Quasijarus, as I do with 2.11BSD, NetBSD etc etc. While I largely agree with your sentiments, I note that in responding to my text above you have clipped out Michael's direct personal attack on Keith Bostic. I find this, um, fascinating. I'll also note that denying Mr. Solokov *this particular forum* for the spewage of his venom is hardly the kind of governmental interference with speech that another poster's quotation decried. I don't see why PUPS/TUHS should provide a general soapbox for shouting insults at the people who did a lot of the work PUPS/TUHS collect, catalog, and preserve. Thor Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA90790 for pups-liszt; Sat, 17 Jun 2000 14:57:58 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From obrien at NUXI.com Sat Jun 17 14:55:04 2000 From: obrien at NUXI.com (David O'Brien) Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 21:55:04 -0700 Subject: PUPS/TUHS should not be divisive In-Reply-To: <20000616232004.A4545@rek.tjls.com>; from tls@rek.tjls.com on Fri, Jun 16, 2000 at 11:20:04PM -0400 References: <20000616174408.A20743@rek.tjls.com> <200006170028.KAA55686@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> <20000616232004.A4545@rek.tjls.com> Message-ID: <20000616215504.I35577@dragon.nuxi.com> On Fri, Jun 16, 2000 at 11:20:04PM -0400, Thor Lancelot Simon wrote: > I don't see why PUPS/TUHS should provide a general soapbox for shouting > insults at the people who did a lot of the work PUPS/TUHS collect, > catalog, and preserve. Not to mention we owe the entire Open Source BSD availability to Keith. Those that have not heard Kirk McKusick's "History of UNIX at Berkeley" talk should go read his "Twenty Years of Berkeley Unix From AT&T-Owned to Freely Redistributable" chapter in "Open Sources: Voices from the Open Source Revolution". This is on-line at http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/opensources/book/kirkmck.html. To quote: During one of our weekly group meetings at the CSRG, Keith Bostic brought up the subject of the popularity of the freely-redistributable networking release and inquired about the possibility of doing an expanded release that included more of the BSD code. Mike Karels and I pointed out to Bostic that releasing large parts of the system was a huge task, but we agreed that if he could sort out how to deal with reimplementing the hundreds of utilities and the massive C library then we would tackle the kernel. Privately, Karels and I felt that would be the end of the discussion. Undeterred, Bostic pioneered the technique of doing a mass net-based development effort. He solicited folks to rewrite the Unix utilities from scratch based solely on their published descriptions. Their only compensation would be to have their name listed among the Berkeley contributors next to the name of the utility that they rewrote. The contributions started slowly and were mostly for the trivial utilities. But as the list of completed utilities grew and Bostic continued to hold forth for contributions at public events such as Usenix, the rate of contributions continued to grow. Soon the list crossed one hundred utilities and within 18 months nearly all the important utilities and libraries had been rewritten. Proudly, Bostic marched into Mike Karels' and my office, list in hand, wanting to know how we were doing on the kernel. Resigned to our task, Karels, Bostic, and I spent the next several months going over the entire distribution, file by file, removing code that had originated in the 32/V release. With what we owe him, I do not think any continual bad mouthing of Keith should be tolerated. -- -- David (obrien at NUXI.com) Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA91896 for pups-liszt; Sat, 17 Jun 2000 20:42:16 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From robin at ruffnready.co.uk Sat Jun 17 20:38:09 2000 From: robin at ruffnready.co.uk (Robin Birch) Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 11:38:09 +0100 Subject: PUPS/TUHS should not be divisive In-Reply-To: <20000616215504.I35577@dragon.nuxi.com> References: <20000616174408.A20743@rek.tjls.com> <200006170028.KAA55686@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> <20000616232004.A4545@rek.tjls.com> <20000616215504.I35577@dragon.nuxi.com> Message-ID: In message <20000616215504.I35577 at dragon.nuxi.com>, David O'Brien writes >On Fri, Jun 16, 2000 at 11:20:04PM -0400, Thor Lancelot Simon wrote: >> I don't see why PUPS/TUHS should provide a general soapbox for shouting >> insults at the people who did a lot of the work PUPS/TUHS collect, >> catalog, and preserve. > >Not to mention we owe the entire Open Source BSD availability to Keith. > >Those that have not heard Kirk McKusick's "History of UNIX at Berkeley" >talk should go read his "Twenty Years of Berkeley Unix From AT&T-Owned to >Freely Redistributable" chapter in "Open Sources: Voices from the Open >Source Revolution". This is on-line at >http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/opensources/book/kirkmck.html. To quote: > > During one of our weekly group meetings at the CSRG, Keith Bostic > brought up the subject of the popularity of the > freely-redistributable networking release and inquired about the > possibility of doing an expanded release that included more of the > BSD code. Mike Karels and I pointed out to Bostic that releasing > large parts of the system was a huge task, but we agreed that if he > could sort out how to deal with reimplementing the hundreds of > utilities and the massive C library then we would tackle the kernel. > Privately, Karels and I felt that would be the end of the discussion. > > Undeterred, Bostic pioneered the technique of doing a mass net-based > development effort. He solicited folks to rewrite the Unix utilities > from scratch based solely on their published descriptions. Their > only compensation would be to have their name listed among the > Berkeley contributors next to the name of the utility that they > rewrote. The contributions started slowly and were mostly for the > trivial utilities. But as the list of completed utilities grew and > Bostic continued to hold forth for contributions at public events > such as Usenix, the rate of contributions continued to grow. Soon > the list crossed one hundred utilities and within 18 months nearly > all the important utilities and libraries had been rewritten. > > Proudly, Bostic marched into Mike Karels' and my office, list in > hand, wanting to know how we were doing on the kernel. Resigned to > our task, Karels, Bostic, and I spent the next several months going > over the entire distribution, file by file, removing code that had > originated in the 32/V release. > >With what we owe him, I do not think any continual bad mouthing of Keith >should be tolerated. > Seconded!!! ____________________________________________________________________ Robin Birch robin at ruffnready.co.uk M1ASU/2E0ARJ/M5ABD Old computers and radios always welcome Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA91880 for pups-liszt; Sat, 17 Jun 2000 20:40:26 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From robin at ruffnready.co.uk Sat Jun 17 20:36:15 2000 From: robin at ruffnready.co.uk (Robin Birch) Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 11:36:15 +0100 Subject: Yet Another "where does it fit" question In-Reply-To: <200006170209.TAA24691@moe.2bsd.com> References: <200006170209.TAA24691@moe.2bsd.com> Message-ID: In message <200006170209.TAA24691 at moe.2bsd.com>, Steven M. Schultz writes >Hi -- > > I hope I'm in the right mailing list :) > >> From: Tim Shoppa >> Yesterday I asked: >> >> >Two tapes labeled "Vol 1 of 2" and "Vol 2 of 2" and then "2.10.2 SMS >> >Unix". Steven, does this mean you know what's on this and how it's >> >different than the 2.10 and 2.10.1 stuff already in the archive? :-) Terry >> >didn't remember... >> >> Now that I've read the tapes, this is a 1990-ish step halfway between >> 2.10.1 and 2.11, as developed by Steven Schultz (and debugged by >> Terry on his 11/70, judging from the comments.) Is this something > I think it would be - I didn't save a copy for myself ;) > For what it's worth I think this brings in an interesting branch to the archive. Should there be a space for stuff we should hold for purely historical reference purposes and a different one for stuff that would normally be interesting to the average user group punter?. This might have some effects on the archive structure. Robin ____________________________________________________________________ Robin Birch robin at ruffnready.co.uk M1ASU/2E0ARJ/M5ABD Old computers and radios always welcome Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA92845 for pups-liszt; Sun, 18 Jun 2000 01:08:39 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG Sun Jun 18 01:04:30 2000 From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov) Date: Sat, 17 Jun 00 10:04:30 CDT Subject: PUPS/TUHS should not be divisive Message-ID: <0006171504.AA02620@ivan.Harhan.ORG> David O'Brien wrote: > Not to mention we owe the entire Open Source BSD availability to Keith. > > [snipped description of how Bostic, like a murderous American surgeon, cut > out with his butcher knife all the Holy Original True Pure UNIX(R) code, the > code that made BSD Berkeley UNIX(R) and not just some little mortal *BSD, > and replaced it with cheap plastic prostetics] It is *this* that I consider Bostic the killer of CSRG, of True BSD, and of True UNIX for. I don't fscking care whether you call it free or not. The True UNIX code is free to those who have access to it, in the sense that they can make arbitrary modifications to it and freely redistribute it within the circle of accessees. Pure UNIX is completely open source: it is not usable at all without the source, so everyone who has it has the source. Either you have the source or you don't run UNIX. No binary-only distributions. Previously the circle of UNIX accessees was limited to universities, but then they were the only ones who could afford the hardware needed to run UNIX and the electric bills that come with it, so this really wasn't an issue. Someone who wasn't part of a university with a UNIX source license was almost certainly in no position to run UNIX or have an interest in it anyway. Now the situation has changed, and many people run PDP-11s and VAXen on a hobbyist basis in their homes, but the licensing situation has changed accordingly too: now it's a free clickwrap license. If it isn't Ritchie and Thompson's original UNIX code, then it isn't UNIX. And I want UNIX, in four capitals with an R-in-circle superscript. I don't care about clones and workalikes and copycats. However "modern" they are, they are still mere clones and copycats. And I want the genuine article. -- Michael Sokolov Harhan Engineering Laboratory Public Service Agent International Free Computing Task Force International Engineering and Science Task Force 615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY STE #4 DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA Phone: +1-214-824-7693 (Harhan Eng Lab office) E-mail: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (ARPA TCP/SMTP) (UUCP coming soon) Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA92914 for pups-liszt; Sun, 18 Jun 2000 01:24:42 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From soren at wheel.dk Sun Jun 18 01:21:41 2000 From: soren at wheel.dk (Soren S. Jorvang) Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 17:21:41 +0200 Subject: PUPS/TUHS should not be divisive In-Reply-To: <0006171504.AA02620@ivan.Harhan.ORG>; from msokolov@ivan.Harhan.ORG on Sat, Jun 17, 2000 at 10:04:30AM -0500 References: <0006171504.AA02620@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Message-ID: <20000617172141.A24254@gnyf.wheel.dk> On Sat, Jun 17, 2000 at 10:04:30AM -0500, Michael Sokolov wrote: > I think now is a good time for you to leave the PUPS list. -- Soren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA93266 for pups-liszt; Sun, 18 Jun 2000 02:07:23 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From mallison at konnections.com Sun Jun 18 02:05:01 2000 From: mallison at konnections.com (Mike Allison) Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 10:05:01 -0600 Subject: PUPS/TUHS should not be divisive Message-ID: <007901bfd875$cb8aaea0$ab7a3fd1@oemcomputer> I think I understand what Michael is saying. Or at least it means something to me. I don't have a lot vested here, nor have I always followed the issues with PUPS and now TUHS. Certainly a big part of this was running AT&T UNIX systems on these machines. And, TUHS might only ever be about UNIX as UNIX (R). The fact that you COULD run a unix clone -- Linux, Open BSD, what have you is fine. We can argue that true BSD was a set of improvements or additions to UNIX which may even have been sanctioned in part by the UNIX team. But the fact that you run Linux, Open BSD, MINIX or a MSDOS clone is not pertinent to running UNIX System N.n Using the GNU C Compiler is not pertinent to the AT&T K&R C compiler, per se. Is the ultimate purpose then of the list to keep the machines running regardless of OS, or to run AT&T UNIX on these systems. I won't fault Michael for his perspective. But I guess we should agree to define the parameters of the list, or agree NOT to define them. Just one insignificant soul's opinion (JOISO) -Mike Mike Allison Stranded in Utah, USA -----Original Message----- From: Michael Sokolov To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Date: Saturday, June 17, 2000 9:09 AM Subject: Re: PUPS/TUHS should not be divisive >If it isn't Ritchie and Thompson's original UNIX code, then it isn't UNIX. And >I want UNIX, in four capitals with an R-in-circle superscript. I don't care >about clones and workalikes and copycats. However "modern" they are, they are >still mere clones and copycats. And I want the genuine article. > Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA93311 for pups-liszt; Sun, 18 Jun 2000 02:20:27 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From kshuff at fast.net Sun Jun 18 02:31:18 2000 From: kshuff at fast.net (kshuff) Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 12:31:18 -0400 Subject: PUPS/TUHS should not be divisive References: <0006171504.AA02620@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Message-ID: <394BA7D6.52DD@fast.net> Michael Sokolov wrote: > If it isn't Ritchie and Thompson's original UNIX code, then it isn't UNIX. And > I want UNIX, in four capitals with an R-in-circle superscript. I don't care > about clones and workalikes and copycats. However "modern" they are, they are > still mere clones and copycats. And I want the genuine article. > That might be fine and dandy for you, but other people do not share your views and should not have to be criticized or belittled because they run more "modern" hardware and not true UNIX. We're not all living 20 years in the past. K.S. Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id DAA93671 for pups-liszt; Sun, 18 Jun 2000 03:38:21 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG Sun Jun 18 03:34:16 2000 From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov) Date: Sat, 17 Jun 00 12:34:16 CDT Subject: PUPS/TUHS should not be divisive Message-ID: <0006171734.AA02816@ivan.Harhan.ORG> kshuff wrote: > That might be fine and dandy for you, but other people do not share > your views > and should not have to be criticized or belittled because they run > more "modern" > hardware and not true UNIX. We're not all living 20 years in the > past. Then why are you on this list? -- Michael Sokolov Harhan Engineering Laboratory Public Service Agent International Free Computing Task Force International Engineering and Science Task Force 615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY STE #4 DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA Phone: +1-214-824-7693 (Harhan Eng Lab office) E-mail: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (ARPA TCP/SMTP) (UUCP coming soon) Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id EAA93867 for pups-liszt; Sun, 18 Jun 2000 04:16:41 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From obrien at NUXI.com Sun Jun 18 04:13:45 2000 From: obrien at NUXI.com (David O'Brien) Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 11:13:45 -0700 Subject: PUPS/TUHS should not be divisive In-Reply-To: <0006171504.AA02620@ivan.Harhan.ORG>; from msokolov@ivan.Harhan.ORG on Sat, Jun 17, 2000 at 10:04:30AM -0500 References: <0006171504.AA02620@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Message-ID: <20000617111345.H69941@dragon.nuxi.com> On Sat, Jun 17, 2000 at 10:04:30AM -0500, Michael Sokolov wrote: > If it isn't Ritchie and Thompson's original UNIX code, then it isn't UNIX. That is a fine opinion, and one understandable. BUT, I don't see Joy, McKusick, or Lefler on your list. So why is it again that you do 4.3BSD rather than some System III/V + 2BSD?? Joy & McKusick modified the AT&T kernel quite a bit. Or did you not know that they touched that code. -- -- David (obrien at NUXI.com) Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id EAA94035 for pups-liszt; Sun, 18 Jun 2000 04:44:49 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG Sun Jun 18 04:40:44 2000 From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov) Date: Sat, 17 Jun 00 13:40:44 CDT Subject: PUPS/TUHS should not be divisive Message-ID: <0006171840.AA02908@ivan.Harhan.ORG> David O'Brien wrote: > That is a fine opinion, and one understandable. BUT, I don't see Joy, > McKusick, or Lefler on your list. Their work is an *extension* of the Ritchie/Thompson original UNIX, not a replacement. 3BSD through 4.3BSD are direct logical successors of V7/32V research UNIX. > So why is it again that you do 4.3BSD > rather than some System III/V [...] Because I believe that 3BSD through 4.3BSD are the real trunk successors of V7 and 32V, not System III and System V (more affectionately known as Missed'em- five as you can see in the Jargon File). True UNIX is Research UNIX, UNIX that is for research purposes, not commercial ones. The AT&T Education Software License I have buried in my desk somewhere prohibits any commercial use. System III and V deserted this True UNIX mission, but Berkeley UNIX picked it up instead. Exactly the same later happened with 4.4BSD and 4.3BSD-Quasijarus. -- Michael Sokolov Harhan Engineering Laboratory Public Service Agent International Free Computing Task Force International Engineering and Science Task Force 615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY STE #4 DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA Phone: +1-214-824-7693 (Harhan Eng Lab office) E-mail: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (ARPA TCP/SMTP) (UUCP coming soon) From enf at pobox.com Sun Jun 18 05:42:48 2000 From: enf at pobox.com (Eric Fischer) Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 14:42:48 -0500 (CDT) Subject: The Unix History Graphing Project... In-Reply-To: <000616161600.262000b2@trailing-edge.com> References: <000616161600.262000b2@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <200006171942.OAA72964@shell-2.enteract.com> Tim Shoppa writes, > Is there a readable (meaning "not source code") history of *.*BSD > on the McCusick CD set? Most of the comment-type entries in the > Unix History Graphing Project for the BSD releases are pretty good, > but not real complete. Maybe this has already been covered sufficiently, but several of the BSD releases came with lists of what had changed since the previous versions. I've HTMLified the ones I have copies of at http://pobox.com/~enf/lore/unix/bsd/ eric Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA95323 for pups-liszt; Sun, 18 Jun 2000 10:26:24 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From clefevre at no-spam.citeweb.net Sun Jun 18 10:23:21 2000 From: clefevre at no-spam.citeweb.net (Cyrille Lefevre) Date: 18 Jun 2000 02:23:21 +0200 Subject: PUPS/TUHS should not be divisive In-Reply-To: msokolov@ivan.Harhan.ORG's message of "Sat, 17 Jun 00 10:04:30 CDT" References: <0006171504.AA02620@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Message-ID: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov) writes: [snip] > If it isn't Ritchie and Thompson's original UNIX code, then it isn't UNIX. And > I want UNIX, in four capitals with an R-in-circle superscript. I don't care > about clones and workalikes and copycats. However "modern" they are, they are > still mere clones and copycats. And I want the genuine article. are you sure your name isn't "Rev. Don Kool" alias oldno7 at home.com ? it's a joke :) Cyrille. -- home:mailto:clefevre at no-spam.citeweb.net Supprimer "no-spam." pour me repondre. work:mailto:Cyrille.Lefevre at no-spam.edf.fr Remove "no-spam." to answer me back. From wkt at cs.adfa.edu.au Mon Jun 19 11:25:02 2000 From: wkt at cs.adfa.edu.au (Warren Toomey) Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 11:25:02 +1000 (EST) Subject: List Charter, please In-Reply-To: from Alan F R Bain at "Jun 18, 2000 7:26:31 pm" Message-ID: <200006190125.LAA67300@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> In article by Alan F R Bain: > Warren, > Maybe it would be possible to have list guidelines. > Alan Here is the PUPS list charter. If you have violent opposition to it, then please e-mail me. Warren The PUPS list on minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au promotes communication between those people who are interested in the versions of Unix which ran on PDP-11s. Unix is defined as the set of operating systems who can trace their source code ancestry back to the 1st to 7th Editions of research UNIX from Bell Labs. Topics that fall within the list's charter include: + how to install, configure & maintain a PDP-11 Unix system + discussion of PDP-11 hardware issues related to PDP-11 Unix + applications for PDP-11 Unix systems + modification of PDP-11 Unix systems + technical comparisons between PDP-11 Unix systems + anecdotes relating to the history & development of PDP-11 Unix + discussion & announcements of the contents of the PDP-11 section of the Unix Archive Topics that fall outside of the list's charter include: + discussion on non PDP-11 Unix systems, unless they are being compared technically with PDP-11 Unix systems + attacks on particular individuals, groups or organisations + postings which disenfranchise or alienate a individual list subscriber, a group of subscribers, or a particular version of PDP-11 Unix The list will, in general, not be moderated. However, if a list subscriber continues to send off-charter postings to the list after warnings to that effect, then their postings may be moderated. Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA04039 for pups-liszt; Mon, 19 Jun 2000 18:01:21 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From leypold at informatik.uni-tuebingen.de Mon Jun 19 17:58:11 2000 From: leypold at informatik.uni-tuebingen.de (Markus Leypold) Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 09:58:11 +0200 (CEST) Subject: 4.4BSD-Alpha in the TUHS/PUPS archive 4BSD area In-Reply-To: <0006162012.AA01527@ivan.Harhan.ORG> (msokolov@ivan.Harhan.ORG) References: <0006162012.AA01527@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Message-ID: <200006190758.JAA24577@informatik.uni-tuebingen.de> > Delivered-To: leypold at lesbains.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de > Date: Fri, 16 Jun 00 15:12:55 CDT > From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov) > Sender: owner-tuhs at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au > > Quasijarus Consortium members and TUHS/PUPS archive users, > > Today Tim Shoppa has read the HP300 4.4BSD-Alpha distribution on a 9-track 6250 > BPI tape and I have just put it in the archive. It is in > > Distributions/4bsd/4.4BSD-Alpha > > Of course we generally don't do 4.4BSD, but we do include it in the archival > and preservation section of our project. Hi Friends, I really appreciate that. I'm - generally - more a reader than a user of ancient code, so concentration on a certain version (or architecture, i.e. BSD vs the VAX or others) is not as important for me as is an uninterupted, complete coverage of historical versions. Having access to this version of BSD4.4 and (soon) all the other stuff, Tim Shoppa discovered recently, is really GREAT for me. Please keep everything You can. I think I can predict reliably, future generations of software historians will be very thankful. Regards -- Markus Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA04080 for pups-liszt; Mon, 19 Jun 2000 18:14:54 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From leypold at informatik.uni-tuebingen.de Mon Jun 19 18:11:45 2000 From: leypold at informatik.uni-tuebingen.de (Markus Leypold) Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 10:11:45 +0200 (CEST) Subject: The Unix History Graphing Project... In-Reply-To: (apgarcia@hackaholic.org) References: <0006162041.AA01624@ivan.Harhan.ORG> <20000616174408.A20743@rek.tjls.com> <20000616161053.F35577@dragon.nuxi.com> Message-ID: <200006190811.KAA24592@informatik.uni-tuebingen.de> > Delivered-To: leypold at lesbains.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de > From: "A. P. Garcia" > Date: 17 Jun 2000 00:16:48 +0000 > Lines: 13 > User-Agent: Gnus/5.0804 (Gnus v5.8.4) Emacs/20.6 > Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au > > "David O'Brien" writes: > > > > I would like to ask that Mr. Solokov's association with the PUPS and TUHS > > > projects be ended if he can not restrain himself from posting inflammatory > > > material of this nature on the lists. > > > > I have to agree. From his emails, Mr. Solokov is a rather rabid individual. > > No, I agree with whomever it was - I think Patrick Henry - that said > something like "I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend > to the death your right to say it." > > You can always send his mail to /dev/null if you don't like it. I agree. Still I'd prefer (and humbly ask) from Michael Solokov a more diplomatic attitude. As far as I can see, Mr Bostic has contributed to UNIX in general and to the PUPS later, which entitles him to being treated somewhat more respectfully :-) UNIX is variance, not a one-size-fits-all system. On the other side, Michael has ventured, to port BSD4.3 to modern VAXens (a noble enterprise in my eyes), and it would make me sad, to see so excellent and noble :-) men fight each other. Let's avoid that, and let there be no war in the (ancient) UNIX camp. I hope Michael had no intention to hurt the feelings of Keith Bostic. Regards -- Markus > Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA04100 for pups-liszt; Mon, 19 Jun 2000 18:19:08 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From leypold at informatik.uni-tuebingen.de Mon Jun 19 18:16:01 2000 From: leypold at informatik.uni-tuebingen.de (Markus Leypold) Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 10:16:01 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Yet Another "where does it fit" question In-Reply-To: <000616202913.262000b0@trailing-edge.com> (message from Tim Shoppa on Fri, 16 Jun 2000 20:29:13 -0400) References: <000616202913.262000b0@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <200006190816.KAA24598@informatik.uni-tuebingen.de> > Delivered-To: leypold at lesbains.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de > Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 20:29:13 -0400 > From: Tim Shoppa > Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au > > Yesterday I asked: > > >Two tapes labeled "Vol 1 of 2" and "Vol 2 of 2" and then "2.10.2 SMS > >Unix". Steven, does this mean you know what's on this and how it's > >different than the 2.10 and 2.10.1 stuff already in the archive? :-) Terry > >didn't remember... > > Now that I've read the tapes, this is a 1990-ish step halfway between > 2.10.1 and 2.11, as developed by Steven Schultz (and debugged by > Terry on his 11/70, judging from the comments.) Is this something > worthwhile to put in the archive? At the moment, looking at the > timeline of PDP-11 Unices currently in the archive, we have at the > "fairly recent" end: > > 2.9 from 1983 > 2.9.1BSD from 1983 > 2.10BSD from 1987 > 2.10.1BSD from 1989 > 2.11BSD from the past year > > Would it be a worthwhile thing to put 2.10.2 up as an intermediate > step filling in the ten year gap between 2.10.1 and the current 2.11? > I'm worried that whenever I find a metric buttload of Unix tapes that my Hehe. That seems to be a real danger :-) > proposals of adding everything in them to the archive may just be > adding too much volume that folks simply aren't interested in. Hi Tim, PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE. Seriously: If You ever do not want to put something in the archive, give it to me. I have the impression one needs the intermediate versions to be ever able to crosscheck the transfer of features between the diverse branches. Regards Markus. > > -- > Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa at trailing-edge.com > Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ > 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 > Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 > Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA04208 for pups-liszt; Mon, 19 Jun 2000 18:52:21 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From leypold at informatik.uni-tuebingen.de Mon Jun 19 18:48:59 2000 From: leypold at informatik.uni-tuebingen.de (Markus Leypold) Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 10:48:59 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Yet Another "where does it fit" question In-Reply-To: (message from Robin Birch on Sat, 17 Jun 2000 11:36:15 +0100) References: <200006170209.TAA24691@moe.2bsd.com> Message-ID: <200006190848.KAA24676@informatik.uni-tuebingen.de> > Delivered-To: leypold at lesbains.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de > Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 11:36:15 +0100 > Cc: PUPS at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au, SHOPPA at trailing-edge.com > From: Robin Birch > Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au > > In message <200006170209.TAA24691 at moe.2bsd.com>, Steven M. Schultz > writes > >Hi -- > > > > I hope I'm in the right mailing list :) > > > >> From: Tim Shoppa > >> Yesterday I asked: > >> > >> >Two tapes labeled "Vol 1 of 2" and "Vol 2 of 2" and then "2.10.2 SMS > >> >Unix". Steven, does this mean you know what's on this and how it's > >> >different than the 2.10 and 2.10.1 stuff already in the archive? :-) Terry > >> >didn't remember... > >> > >> Now that I've read the tapes, this is a 1990-ish step halfway between > >> 2.10.1 and 2.11, as developed by Steven Schultz (and debugged by > >> Terry on his 11/70, judging from the comments.) Is this something > > > I think it would be - I didn't save a copy for myself ;) > > > For what it's worth I think this brings in an interesting branch to the > archive. Should there be a space for stuff we should hold for purely > historical reference purposes and a different one for stuff that would > normally be interesting to the average user group punter?. This might > have some effects on the archive structure. Well, perhaps not the archive structure should be changed. What I miss is more something like a getting-started-guide: Which versions you could try first with - let's say the emulator - and how to boot them. Regards -- Markus > > Robin > > ____________________________________________________________________ > Robin Birch robin at ruffnready.co.uk > > M1ASU/2E0ARJ/M5ABD Old computers and radios always welcome > Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA04250 for pups-liszt; Mon, 19 Jun 2000 19:01:27 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From leypold at informatik.uni-tuebingen.de Mon Jun 19 18:58:21 2000 From: leypold at informatik.uni-tuebingen.de (Markus Leypold) Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 10:58:21 +0200 (CEST) Subject: PUPS/TUHS should not be divisive In-Reply-To: <007901bfd875$cb8aaea0$ab7a3fd1@oemcomputer> (mallison@konnections.com) References: <007901bfd875$cb8aaea0$ab7a3fd1@oemcomputer> Message-ID: <200006190858.KAA24686@informatik.uni-tuebingen.de> > Delivered-To: leypold at lesbains.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de > From: "Mike Allison" > Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 10:05:01 -0600 > Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au > > I think I understand what Michael is saying. Or at least it means something > to me. > > I don't have a lot vested here, nor have I always followed the issues with > PUPS and now TUHS. > > Certainly a big part of this was running AT&T UNIX systems on these > machines. And, TUHS might only ever be about UNIX as UNIX (R). Well, the demarcation lines are not wuite clearly drawn. Only yesterday my eyes fell on a paragraph in Peter Salus Book: 4.xBSD brought ... improvments ... also a port to the Intel 386/486 Architecture by Bill Jolitz. Well, 386BSD became FreeBSD and it's offspring. Why can't we just stay on big family ? Of course FreeBSD has it's archives elsewhere, but still no reason to divide instead of unite ? > > The fact that you COULD run a unix clone -- Linux, Open BSD, what have you > is fine. We can argue that true BSD was a set of improvements or additions > to UNIX which may even have been sanctioned in part by the UNIX team. But > the fact that you run Linux, Open BSD, MINIX or a MSDOS clone is not > pertinent to running UNIX System N.n > > Using the GNU C Compiler is not pertinent to the AT&T K&R C compiler, per > se. > > Is the ultimate purpose then of the list to keep the machines running > regardless of OS, or to run AT&T UNIX on these systems. > > I won't fault Michael for his perspective. But I guess we should agree to > define the parameters of the list, or agree NOT to define them. Well, not to be disprespectful to honorable members of the community certainly should be a parameter :-) It makes me sad to see all this. Regards -- Markus > Just one insignificant soul's opinion (JOISO) > > -Mike > > Mike Allison > Stranded in Utah, USA > -----Original Message----- > From: Michael Sokolov > To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au > Date: Saturday, June 17, 2000 9:09 AM > Subject: Re: PUPS/TUHS should not be divisive > > > >If it isn't Ritchie and Thompson's original UNIX code, then it isn't UNIX. > And > >I want UNIX, in four capitals with an R-in-circle superscript. I don't care > >about clones and workalikes and copycats. However "modern" they are, they > are > >still mere clones and copycats. And I want the genuine article. > > > > Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA04261 for pups-liszt; Mon, 19 Jun 2000 19:02:46 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From leypold at informatik.uni-tuebingen.de Mon Jun 19 18:59:40 2000 From: leypold at informatik.uni-tuebingen.de (Markus Leypold) Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 10:59:40 +0200 (CEST) Subject: PUPS/TUHS should not be divisive In-Reply-To: <394BA7D6.52DD@fast.net> (message from kshuff on Sat, 17 Jun 2000 12:31:18 -0400) References: <0006171504.AA02620@ivan.Harhan.ORG> <394BA7D6.52DD@fast.net> Message-ID: <200006190859.KAA24689@informatik.uni-tuebingen.de> > Delivered-To: leypold at lesbains.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de > Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 12:31:18 -0400 > From: kshuff > Organization: I'm not organized > Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au > > Michael Sokolov wrote: > > > still mere clones and copycats. And I want the genuine article. > > > > That might be fine and dandy for you, but other people do not share > your views > and should not have to be criticized or belittled because they run > more "modern" > hardware and not true UNIX. We're not all living 20 years in the > past. And some use emulators within modern systems to get a feel for 'the genuine article'. -- Markus Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA04779 for pups-liszt; Mon, 19 Jun 2000 20:36:13 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From tfb at cley.com Mon Jun 19 20:32:14 2000 From: tfb at cley.com (Tim Bradshaw) Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 11:32:14 +0100 (BST) Subject: The Unix History Graphing Project... In-Reply-To: <200006190811.KAA24592@informatik.uni-tuebingen.de> References: <0006162041.AA01624@ivan.Harhan.ORG> <20000616174408.A20743@rek.tjls.com> <20000616161053.F35577@dragon.nuxi.com> <200006190811.KAA24592@informatik.uni-tuebingen.de> Message-ID: <14669.63150.572660.30605@cley.com> * Markus Leypold wrote: > On the other side, Michael has ventured, to port BSD4.3 to modern > VAXens (a noble enterprise in my eyes), Weell, I don't know about that. All them modern Vaxens aren't really *original* are they? Got microprocessors in, half of 'em. Never did hold with any kind of computer you didn't need a lorry to move, myself. --tim Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA04954 for pups-liszt; Mon, 19 Jun 2000 21:22:24 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From tls at rek.tjls.com Mon Jun 19 21:19:11 2000 From: tls at rek.tjls.com (Thor Lancelot Simon) Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 07:19:11 -0400 Subject: PUPS/TUHS should not be divisive In-Reply-To: <200006190858.KAA24686@informatik.uni-tuebingen.de>; from leypold@informatik.uni-tuebingen.de on Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 10:58:21AM +0200 References: <007901bfd875$cb8aaea0$ab7a3fd1@oemcomputer> <200006190858.KAA24686@informatik.uni-tuebingen.de> Message-ID: <20000619071911.A23440@rek.tjls.com> On Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 10:58:21AM +0200, Markus Leypold wrote: > > > > Delivered-To: leypold at lesbains.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de > > From: "Mike Allison" > > Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 10:05:01 -0600 > > Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au > > > > I think I understand what Michael is saying. Or at least it means something > > to me. > > > > I don't have a lot vested here, nor have I always followed the issues with > > PUPS and now TUHS. > > > > Certainly a big part of this was running AT&T UNIX systems on these > > machines. And, TUHS might only ever be about UNIX as UNIX (R). > > Well, the demarcation lines are not wuite clearly drawn. Only > yesterday my eyes fell on a paragraph in Peter Salus Book: 4.xBSD > brought ... improvments ... also a port to the Intel 386/486 > Architecture by Bill Jolitz. Well, 386BSD became FreeBSD and it's > offspring. For those trying to keep track of the exact Unix history graph, it should be noted that the above history isn't quite right. Jolitz' original 386 port was partially done for CSRG and partially done for what became BSDI. A somewhat infamous falling-out during Usenix resulted in Jolitz *redoing* his 386 port and releasing it as 386BSD shortly after BSDI released BSD/386. BSD/386 0.0 was released, then 0.1. Jolitz kept saying things about "0.2" but it began to become clear to most people that it wouldn't be released soon, if ever. A semi-official "patchkit" sprung up, and soon most people were running 386BSD 0.1 plus patchkit X. Meanwhile, Adam Glass and Chris Demetriou and, soon, a small number of others, started work on what became NetBSD, a centrally managed free software project that sought to bring some CSRG-like focus to the 386BSD chaos. An early snapshot of this made its way to the patchkit folks, who declined for various reasons to participate. NetBSD 0.8 was released, and a little bit later the patchkit maintainers (mostly) released FreeBSD. Though there was new work -- and would eventually be a *lot* of new work -- there was also clearly a lot of code that came not from 386BSD or the patchkits but from that pre-0.8 NetBSD snapshot. Since these facts are pretty well known among the principals involved it's always been a mystery to me why Unix history graphs seem to get the later wiggles in the xBSD line all wrong. Thor Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA05220 for pups-liszt; Mon, 19 Jun 2000 22:41:55 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From db at aptant.com Mon Jun 19 22:37:08 2000 From: db at aptant.com (Donald Brownlee) Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 05:37:08 -0700 Subject: save everything Message-ID: <394E13B9.19957855@aptant.com> My $0.02: I once wondered whether the techniques of literary textual criticism could be used in order to determine whether a Linux, FreeBSD, groff -- whatever! -- is in any way derived from an earlier work. Textual criticism considers a work by examining several or all of the extant textual variations in an attempt to determine what the author originally wrote; it has been used to reconstruct the "original" texts of the ancient as well as some modern writers, such as James Joyce. It yields a tree of texts, in which the root is the "original," and the sibling children of any node are the descendants of a common, perhaps hypothetical, text. I don't know much else about it, except that its results may depend on alot of knowledge and informed speculation. The textual critics work bottom-up to arrive at an original text; I am thinking of a top-down process, working from an original text, to show that a work lower in a tree is derived from the original. If such a technique were valid at all, its validity would only be improved with the availablity of many, many "texts." The techniques might be more useful where, for example, there were several V7 tapes that people thought were original, but which, on inspection, turned out to be different. In this situation, textual criticism might be used to reconstruct a "true," V7 release tape, and, in this situation, would be a bottom-up application of the techniques. In any event, I think that it is important to preserve alot of tapes, and to keep them separate with as much information as possible about their pedigree. If someone ever did use such a technique -- or any other technique -- to reconstruct a "true" release, it is important that they document their work and not throw away the tapes that contributed to the "true" tape, because even more tapes may appear in the future which could lead to the reconstruction of an even truer tape. Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA05638 for pups-liszt; Tue, 20 Jun 2000 00:09:12 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG Tue Jun 20 00:04:49 2000 From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov) Date: Mon, 19 Jun 00 09:04:49 CDT Subject: PUPS/TUHS should not be divisive Message-ID: <0006191404.AA05277@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Markus Leypold wrote: > And some use emulators within modern systems to get a feel for 'the > genuine article'. No, no emulator can give you a feel for the genuine article. You won't get that feel until you get your toes crushed by an H9642 side panel, get your knuckles scraped by a BA23, or take a day off with your back hurting after carrying an RA81 across the campus. -- Michael Sokolov Harhan Engineering Laboratory Public Service Agent International Free Computing Task Force International Engineering and Science Task Force 615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY STE #4 DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA Phone: +1-214-824-7693 (Harhan Eng Lab office) E-mail: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (ARPA TCP/SMTP) (UUCP coming soon) Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA05657 for pups-liszt; Tue, 20 Jun 2000 00:12:04 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From pino at dohd.cx Tue Jun 20 00:08:36 2000 From: pino at dohd.cx (Martijn van Buul) Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 16:08:36 +0200 Subject: [Newbie alert!] Disk usage of various Unices Message-ID: <20000619160836.A12288@mud.stack.nl> Hello! I recently obtained a beast which appears to be a PDP 11/53+, and I want to run some Unix on it (Wahey!). I've got a small problem though: It only has one(!) RD32A disk (42MB). I know that this probably won't be enough to hold a complete distribution, but which release can I install bare-bones on that disk? I might be able to slip in another MFM disk (but I don't have something bigger than 21 MB at hand), provided I can low-level format it. Your help is greatly appreciated.. -- Martijn van Buul - Pino at dohd.cx - http://www.stack.nl/~martijnb/ Visit OuterSpace: mud.stack.nl 3333 Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA05774 for pups-liszt; Tue, 20 Jun 2000 00:31:17 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG Tue Jun 20 00:25:44 2000 From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov) Date: Mon, 19 Jun 00 09:25:44 CDT Subject: PUPS/TUHS should not be divisive Message-ID: <0006191425.AA05387@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Markus Leypold wrote: > Why can't we just stay on big family ? Of course FreeBSD has it's > archives elsewhere, but still no reason to divide instead of unite ? According to Warren's Charter, PUPS and TUHS are both specifically for UNIX. His Charter defines UNIX as follows: "Unix is defined as the set of operating systems who can trace their source code ancestry back to the 1st to 7th Editions of research UNIX from Bell Labs." Any system that fits this definition automatically falls under the original UNIX copyright and may not be distributed outside the circle of UNIX source licensees. Therefore, if you think that FreeBSD fits this definition and belongs in this group, you must stop publicly distributing it. Otherwise, it does not belong in the archive or on these lists. -- Michael Sokolov Harhan Engineering Laboratory Public Service Agent International Free Computing Task Force International Engineering and Science Task Force 615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY STE #4 DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA Phone: +1-214-824-7693 (Harhan Eng Lab office) E-mail: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (ARPA TCP/SMTP) (UUCP coming soon) Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA05755 for pups-liszt; Tue, 20 Jun 2000 00:30:18 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From SHOPPA at trailing-edge.com Tue Jun 20 00:27:09 2000 From: SHOPPA at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 10:27:09 -0400 Subject: [Newbie alert!] Disk usage of various Unices Message-ID: <000619102709.262000b0@trailing-edge.com> >I recently obtained a beast which appears to be a PDP 11/53+, and I want >to run some Unix on it (Wahey!). I've got a small problem though: It >only has one(!) RD32A disk (42MB). I know that this probably won't be >enough to hold a complete distribution, but which release can I install >bare-bones on that disk? You can put the root partition of 2.11BSD on there quite nicely, it'll live in 8 Mbytes. Trimming down /usr to 42 Mbytes will depend on what exactly you need from it, though. Certainly you can set up a system with compilers, etc., even though you won't be able to have all the sources online at the same time. >I might be able to slip in another MFM disk (but I don't have something >bigger than 21 MB at hand), provided I can low-level format it. You want to read Terry Kennedy's document on adding third-party disks to DEC RQDX3 controllers. You can find it at ftp://ftp.spc.edu/third-party-disks.txt Information about formatting, jumper settings, etc., is all there. Tim. Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA05794 for pups-liszt; Tue, 20 Jun 2000 00:35:36 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From andy.sporner at networkengines.com Tue Jun 20 00:30:39 2000 From: andy.sporner at networkengines.com (Andrew Sporner) Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 10:30:39 -0400 Subject: save everything and divisiveness Message-ID: <8D18C4F9CBA1D311900F00A0C990C97F67C8CD@neimail.networkengines.com> + my $0.02 makes $1.00 >From my perspective I have watched this argument on this list about purism and otherwise. >From a practical sense, historical trueness makes sense when we are considering changes to something. That is to evaluate whether it was better before or after; with the ultimate goal of coming up with a truly usefull sytem. Otherwise O/S researchers would never be able to make advancements because they would be repeating each others mistakes. But to take a lesson from history makes having such an archive of old source important. To get hung up on a particular release makes sense I guess if you are a collector, such as one who collects vases because that is an art form. A vase from the Ming chinesse period is worth more if it has not been modified (for instance some later owner decides that there are not enough flowers on the vase--so he adds some). However with Systems software this is not the case because it is not a tangible item such as a processor such as a PDP-11 or PDP-8. I know many people that still run PDP-8's (I have one myself), but universally ever user of the '8 is trying to make the software on it run better and more efficiently. So I would not be one to castigate some pioneers of systems software whoses names happened not to be K&R. I am sure that the both Kernigan and Richie both are marveled at what Unix has become. In fact I believe one of them went on to write Plan-9 which is really off-the-wall compared to their earlier work. Good software is inherrently in a steady process of evolution. The only piece of software I have ever seen that never evolved was the classic "Hello World" program that everybody learns to write on their first lesson in programming. OK, That's it... Andy Sporner > > My $0.02: > > > I once wondered whether the techniques of literary textual > criticism could be used in order to determine whether a Linux, > FreeBSD, groff -- whatever! -- is in any way derived from an > earlier work. Textual criticism considers a work by examining > several or all of the extant textual variations in an attempt > to determine what the author originally wrote; it has been > used to reconstruct the "original" texts of the ancient as > well as some modern writers, such as James Joyce. It > yields a tree of texts, in which the root is the "original," > and the sibling children of any node are the descendants of a > common, perhaps hypothetical, text. I don't know much > else about it, except that its results may depend on alot > of knowledge and informed speculation. The textual critics > work bottom-up to arrive at an original text; I am thinking > of a top-down process, working from an original text, to show that a > work lower in a tree is derived from the original. If such a > technique were valid at all, its validity would only be improved > with the availablity of many, many "texts." The techniques might be > more useful where, for example, there were several V7 tapes > that people > thought were original, but which, on inspection, turned out > to be different. > In this situation, textual criticism might be used to > reconstruct a "true," V7 > release tape, and, in this situation, would be a bottom-up > application of the techniques. > > In any event, I think that it is important to preserve alot of > tapes, and to keep them separate with as much information as > possible about their pedigree. If someone ever did use such > a technique -- or any other technique -- to reconstruct a > "true" release, > it is important that they document their work and not throw away the > tapes that contributed to the "true" tape, because even more > tapes may appear in the future which could lead to > the reconstruction of an even truer tape. > Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA05825 for pups-liszt; Tue, 20 Jun 2000 00:41:54 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG Tue Jun 20 00:37:31 2000 From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov) Date: Mon, 19 Jun 00 09:37:31 CDT Subject: The Unix History Graphing Project... Message-ID: <0006191437.AA05415@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Tim Bradshaw wrote: > * Markus Leypold wrote: > > On the other side, Michael has ventured, to port BSD4.3 to modern > > VAXens (a noble enterprise in my eyes), > > Weell, I don't know about that. All them modern Vaxens aren't really > *original* are they? Got microprocessors in, half of 'em. Never did > hold with any kind of computer you didn't need a lorry to move, > myself. Now, stop right there! I'm an international agent and I'm armed! :-) To start with, I don't want to use the term "modern", ever. As for what VAXen I support and target, my primary emphasis is on BI/XMI VAXen, which are very big and are absolute miracles of architectural beauty. They don't undermine the original VAXness a single bit. On the opposite, they actually implement many of the astounding miracles of the holy original VAX Architecture Reference Manual that the original VAX-11s were only going to. I also place a high emphasis on Q22-bus MicroVAXen, as they are readily available and don't require special power, and yet they fully comply with the proper VAX architecture. There are also BabyVAXen, which is what NutBSDists and others talking about "modern VAXen" are probably talking about. Those are indeed very cost-reduced, VAXness-deprived, and PeeCee-fied. I do plan on supporting them, just so that I support every VAX ever made, but I by no means endorse them. They are not real VAXen. -- Michael Sokolov Harhan Engineering Laboratory Public Service Agent International Free Computing Task Force International Engineering and Science Task Force 615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY STE #4 DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA Phone: +1-214-824-7693 (Harhan Eng Lab office) E-mail: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (ARPA TCP/SMTP) (UUCP coming soon) Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA05864 for pups-liszt; Tue, 20 Jun 2000 00:45:21 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG Tue Jun 20 00:40:50 2000 From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov) Date: Mon, 19 Jun 00 09:40:50 CDT Subject: PUPS/TUHS should not be divisive Message-ID: <0006191440.AA05429@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Thor Lancelot Simon wrote: > [snipped discussion of clones and workalikes not containing any original UNIX > code and thus of no relevance to this group] By the Charter I'm asking you to take this elsewhere. -- Michael Sokolov Harhan Engineering Laboratory Public Service Agent International Free Computing Task Force International Engineering and Science Task Force 615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY STE #4 DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA Phone: +1-214-824-7693 (Harhan Eng Lab office) E-mail: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (ARPA TCP/SMTP) (UUCP coming soon) Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA05998 for pups-liszt; Tue, 20 Jun 2000 01:14:17 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From tls at rek.tjls.com Tue Jun 20 01:11:00 2000 From: tls at rek.tjls.com (Thor Lancelot Simon) Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 11:11:00 -0400 Subject: PUPS/TUHS should not be divisive In-Reply-To: <0006191440.AA05429@ivan.Harhan.ORG>; from msokolov@ivan.Harhan.ORG on Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 09:40:50AM -0500 References: <0006191440.AA05429@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Message-ID: <20000619111100.A5557@rek.tjls.com> On Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 09:40:50AM -0500, Michael Sokolov wrote: > Thor Lancelot Simon wrote: > > > [snipped discussion of clones and workalikes not containing any original UNIX > > code and thus of no relevance to this group] > > By the Charter I'm asking you to take this elsewhere. I'm asking you, once more, to take your fanaticism elsewhere. I'm also asking the moderator, once more, in light of this, your recent attacks on Keith Bostic, your totally gratuitous "NutBSD" swipe in your most recent missive, and your general misbehaviour and abysmal nettiquite in your time on this list, to cause you to take your fanaticism elsewhere. Had it ever occurred to you that others might not delineate "Unix" in quite the same way in which you do? Of course not. Your opinion is the only one that matters, and if anyone else doesn't see it that way, well, then, by God, you'll just have to spew flamage until he goes away. Great. Really, absolutely what's needed in a preservation project. Thor Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA06047 for pups-liszt; Tue, 20 Jun 2000 01:19:32 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG Tue Jun 20 01:14:59 2000 From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov) Date: Mon, 19 Jun 00 10:14:59 CDT Subject: PUPS/TUHS should not be divisive Message-ID: <0006191514.AA05578@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Thor Lancelot Simon wrote: > Had it ever occurred to you that others might not delineate "Unix" > in quite the same way in which you do? In this case my definition of UNIX agrees with that set by the Charters for both lists. -- Michael Sokolov Harhan Engineering Laboratory Public Service Agent International Free Computing Task Force International Engineering and Science Task Force 615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY STE #4 DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA Phone: +1-214-824-7693 (Harhan Eng Lab office) E-mail: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (ARPA TCP/SMTP) (UUCP coming soon) Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA06069 for pups-liszt; Tue, 20 Jun 2000 01:20:58 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From joe at barrera.org Tue Jun 20 01:17:01 2000 From: joe at barrera.org (Joseph S. Barrera III) Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 08:17:01 -0700 Subject: PUPS/TUHS should not be divisive In-Reply-To: <0006191440.AA05429@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Message-ID: <000001bfda01$6f987c70$0300a8c0@joebar> > By the Charter I'm asking you to take this elsewhere. Bwa ha ha. That's pretty funny, Michael. Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA06137 for pups-liszt; Tue, 20 Jun 2000 01:35:35 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From RBROADWAY at tbs-ltd.co.uk Tue Jun 20 01:29:44 2000 From: RBROADWAY at tbs-ltd.co.uk (Broadway, Rusel) Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 16:29:44 +0100 Subject: No subject Message-ID: <9114940C5E0FD31186950008C7B9A6021845D4@coexch.tbs-ltd.co.uk.50.130.194.in-addr.arpa> ********************** N O T I C E ********************************* This information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain confidential and/or privileged material. Any review , retransmission, dissemination or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon, this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you received this in error, please contact the sender and delete all copies of the message. This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept for the presence of computer viruses, however we cannot guarantee that this message is free from such problems. ********************************************************************** -------------- next part -------------- I agree with Thor: Either grow up or get out! Rusel Broadway Senior Systems Analyst (e-mail Rbroadway at tbs-ltd.co.uk , DDI: 01206-25-5745) The Book Service Ltd. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Programmer.gif Type: image/gif Size: 3235 bytes Desc: not available URL: From obrien at NUXI.com Tue Jun 20 03:59:54 2000 From: obrien at NUXI.com (David O'Brien) Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 10:59:54 -0700 Subject: The Unix History Graphing Project... In-Reply-To: <0006191437.AA05415@ivan.Harhan.ORG>; from msokolov@ivan.Harhan.ORG on Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 09:37:31AM -0500 References: <0006191437.AA05415@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Message-ID: <20000619105954.D2592@dragon.nuxi.com> On Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 09:37:31AM -0500, Michael Sokolov wrote: > There are also BabyVAXen, which is what NutBSDists and others talking about ^^^^^ This is *TOTALY* uncalled for. Warren, Michael has definitely crossed the bounds of lack of respect for others. Would you please consider moderating his posts? -- -- David (obrien at NUXI.com) From rdkeys at unity.ncsu.edu Tue Jun 20 06:06:24 2000 From: rdkeys at unity.ncsu.edu (rdkeys at unity.ncsu.edu) Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 16:06:24 -0400 (EDT) Subject: PUPS/TUHS UNIX scope..... In-Reply-To: <0006191425.AA05387@ivan.Harhan.ORG> from "Michael Sokolov" at Jun 19, 2000 09:25:44 AM Message-ID: <200006192006.QAA21903@uni02du.unity.ncsu.edu> > According to Warren's Charter, PUPS and TUHS are both specifically for UNIX. > His Charter defines UNIX as follows: > > "Unix is defined as the set of operating systems who can trace their source > code ancestry back to the 1st to 7th Editions of research UNIX from Bell Labs." > > Any system that fits this definition automatically falls under the original > UNIX copyright and may not be distributed outside the circle of UNIX source > licensees. Therefore, if you think that FreeBSD fits this definition and > belongs in this group, you must stop publicly distributing it. Otherwise, it > does not belong in the archive or on these lists. One might easily consider Warren's Charter definition, following the wording closely, to mean that it includes successor derivatives of V1-V7. That might particularly include the BSD's, be they original CSRG code or derived code, which can be traced back through CSRG, to V1-V7. All of the x86ish derivations can be traced back to Jolitz's port which had its beginnings around 4.3 or 4.3-Tahoe, if I am remembering the source tree structure in one of my source trees. Thus, technically, a direct lineal descent case of 386BSD, NetBSD, and FreeBSD, up through the point of unencumbering, could be made as subject to Warren's Charter definition, and subject to our archiving scope. Bob From SHOPPA at trailing-edge.com Sun Jun 25 11:18:02 2000 From: SHOPPA at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 21:18:02 -0400 Subject: Installing SYSTEM III; stuck! Message-ID: <000624211802.2620014a@trailing-edge.com> OK, I think I'm figuring out how to install Unix System III on a 11/45. In particular, I mount the first tape on a MT tape drive, get a RP04 up and spinning, and boot from tape: UNIX tape boot loader UNIX -- Initial Load: Tape-to-Disk The type of disk drive on which the Root file system will reside, as well as the type of tape drive that will be used for Tape 1 must be specified below. Answer the questions with a 'y' or 'n' followed by a carriage return or line feed. There is no type-ahead -- wait for the question to complete. The character '@' will kill the entire line, while the character '#' will erase the last character typed. RP03 at address 176710?: n RP04/5/6 at address 176700?: y Drive number (0-7)?: 0 Disk drive 0 selected. Mount a formatted pack on drive 0. Ready?: y TU10/TM11 at address 172520?: y Drive number (0-7)?: 0 Tape drive 0 selected. The tape on drive 0 will be read from the current position at 800bpi, 5120 characters (10 blocks) per record, and written onto the pack on drive 0 starting at block 0. Ready?: y Size of filesystem to be copied is 6000 blocks. What is the pack volume label? (e.g. p0001): p0001 The pack will be labelled p0001. The boot block for your type of disk drive will now be installed. The file system copy is now complete. To boot the basic unix for your disk and tape drives as indicated above, mount this pack on drive 0 and read in the boot block (block 0) using whatever means you have available; see romboot(8), 70boot(8). Then boot the program unixhptm using diskboot(8). Normally: #0=unixhptm The system will initially come up single-user; see init(8). If you have an upper case only console terminal, you must execute: stty lcase; see stty(1). After UNIX is up, link the file unixhptm to unix using ln(1). # ln /unixhptm /unix Set the date(1). Good Luck! The tape will now be rewound. [Now I boot from the RP04]: #0=unixhptm UNIX/3.0.1: unixhptm real mem = 253952 bytes avail mem = 187584 bytes unix single-user # ls -l total 805 drwxr-xr-x 2 root sys 32 Feb 15 1979 bck drwxrwxr-x 2 bin bin 1312 Dec 15 1981 bin drwxr-xr-x 2 root sys 528 Dec 15 1981 dev drwxr-xr-x 3 root sys 1056 Oct 26 14:57 etc drwxrwxr-x 2 bin bin 272 Dec 15 1981 lib drwxrwxrwx 2 bin bin 32 May 31 1980 lost+found drwxr-xr-x 2 root sys 32 Feb 15 1979 mnt drwxrwxr-x 3 bin bin 368 Dec 15 1981 stand -rwxrwxr-x 1 sys sys 51382 Nov 9 1982 unixhpht -rwxrwxr-x 1 sys sys 50778 Sep 3 1980 unixhptm -rwxrwxr-x 1 sys sys 49380 Sep 3 1980 unixrkht -rwxrwxr-x 1 sys sys 48782 Sep 3 1980 unixrktm -rwxrwxr-x 1 sys sys 50172 Sep 3 1980 unixrlht -rwxrwxr-x 1 sys sys 49574 Sep 3 1980 unixrltm -rwxrwxr-x 1 sys sys 49704 Sep 3 1980 unixrpht -rwxrwxr-x 1 sys sys 49106 Sep 3 1980 unixrptm drwxr-xr-x 2 sys sys 32 Aug 19 08:46 usr But what do I do next? There's a bunch of 5120-byte-record files still on the tape, and the "/bin" on the root filesystem doesn't have "tar" or "restor". It *does* have cpio, and I think that's what I want to use. So what's the next step? -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa at trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA52023 for pups-liszt; Sun, 25 Jun 2000 18:53:46 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) From wkt at cs.adfa.edu.au Sun Jun 25 18:52:47 2000 From: wkt at cs.adfa.edu.au (Warren Toomey) Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 18:52:47 +1000 (EST) Subject: Installing SYSTEM III; stuck! In-Reply-To: <000624211802.2620014a@trailing-edge.com> from Tim Shoppa at "Jun 24, 2000 9:18: 2 pm" Message-ID: <200006250852.SAA20841@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> In article by Tim Shoppa: > But what do I do next? There's a bunch of 5120-byte-record files still > on the tape, and the "/bin" on the root filesystem doesn't have "tar" or > "restor". It *does* have cpio, and I think that's what I want to use. So > what's the next step? >From the PDP-11 SysIII in the archive, the files are cpio archives. The /usr/src/man/docs/setup file explains what to do next. It's in nroff format, but I don't know what macro switch to use to print it out correctly. I'll send it in a separate e-mail to avoid clogging up the list. Warren From tfb at cley.com Fri Jun 30 02:17:16 2000 From: tfb at cley.com (Tim Bradshaw) Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 17:17:16 +0100 (BST) Subject: [pups] 11/23 and other qbus machines Message-ID: <14683.30348.236685.247157@cley.com> I'm maybe going to acquire an 11/23. It looks like this is kind of small for running v7 and/or 2.11 as it has no split I/D (it does have an MMU in it but only an 18-bit one I think). How similar is the physical hardware (card cage I mean really) of this to things like 11/73,11/83? I'm wondering if I might one day be able to acquire a card-set from something bigger and install it in the same rack, my logic being that cards are a lot easier to get from far away than racks, and this machine is only a few miles away. Thanks --tim Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA05724 for pups-liszt; Sat, 1 Jul 2000 21:07:47 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au)