From mjkerpan at kerpan.com  Sat Apr  1 00:41:08 2017
From: mjkerpan at kerpan.com (Michael Kerpan)
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2017 10:41:08 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] 8th Edition Research Unix on SIMH
In-Reply-To: <20170331053614.GE97595@wopr>
References: <20170328205823.45fee6fe@neon.9fans.fr>
 <20170330161620.14f47d53@neon.9fans.fr>
 <20170330203031.065891fd@neon.9fans.fr>
 <CAHfSdrVACgFBYoPy8PrdpKTuxge6zhrEgB=HOmRWNhW9wL7hqw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20170331053614.GE97595@wopr>
Message-ID: <CAHfSdrVncr=2NJ5McuMnq+X+Md2LptDcuOjnAK8WTf1ZKUCjfA@mail.gmail.com>

VMs take up less space in the house :)

On Fri, Mar 31, 2017 at 1:36 AM, Kurt H Maier <khm at sciops.net> wrote:
> On Fri, Mar 31, 2017 at 01:05:16AM -0400, Michael Kerpan wrote:
>> Has the Blit emulator been ported to anything other than Plan 9 or
>> does one need to set up a VM running Plan 9 to test out the graphics?
>
> 9front works fine on actual hardware, no vm necessary.
>
> khm


From dds at aueb.gr  Sat Apr  1 01:34:22 2017
From: dds at aueb.gr (Diomidis Spinellis)
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2017 18:34:22 +0300
Subject: [TUHS] Ninth Edition incomplete?
Message-ID: <530ddda5-58ac-93fd-579e-c697aafd26b9@aueb.gr>

First, many thanks to all people who made it possible to release v8 to 
v10 and especially to Warren for bringing them together.

I went through the files in the Ninth Edition available at 
http://www.tuhs.org/Archive/Distributions/Research/Norman_v9/ and I fear 
that the distribution may be incomplete.  The manual pages for most 
sections are missing.  Also, many v8 /usr/src/cmd commands are not 
available in v9 /cmd.  This is the list of the difference between the 
two sets.

2621 300 300s 4014 450 512restor ac accton Admin apply arcv arff as asa
ascii asd at awk bad144 basename bcd bundle byteyears c2 cal calendar
cb cbt cc ccom cflow cflow checkeq chgrp clri col comm compact compat
config cref crypt csh ct ctags cvcrypt cyntax daemon dcheck deroff des
descrypt diction diff3 dircmp dired dmesg dskcpy dump dumpcatch dumpdir
efl ether ex expand f77 factor false fcopy finddev flcopy fold fsplit
fstat getopt getuid graph group gsi head hideblock hist hoc hp icheck
ideal idiff inet install iostat kasb labmake last lcomp ld learn lfactor
lint load log logdir look m4 mail Mail makekey man map mesg mips mkbitfs
mkstr monk morse ncheck neqn netfsbug newer news nm number numdate oops
pack paste pcc1 PDP11 plot primes prof pstat pti ptx punct qed quot
random rarepl ratfor rcp readslow refer reloc renice reset restor rev
rp07dump rp07rest sa savecore sdb sdiff seq server settod showq snocone
spell spline split struct style sum swapon tabs tape tcat tk tp tpr tr
trace track trim tsort ul und unexpand uniq units upas uucp uudecode
uuencode v8 value view2d vis where wwb wwv xref xstr yacc yes

Anyone knows what is going on?  Does someone have a more complete 
distribution of the Ninth Edition that Warren can put online?

Diomidis


From doug at cs.dartmouth.edu  Sat Apr  1 02:14:45 2017
From: doug at cs.dartmouth.edu (Doug McIlroy)
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2017 12:14:45 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] Pi, samuel, cin and 8th, 9th, 10th Edition Unix
Message-ID: <201703311614.v2VGEjvR010756@coolidge.cs.Dartmouth.EDU>


> If anyone has any information about 'samuel' or 'cin',
> I would be delighted to hear from him or her.

cin appears in the v9 and v10 manuals. Thus if the
program is found in the wild, there should be no
compunction about adding it to the tuhs archive.

Doug


From b4 at gewt.net  Sat Apr  1 02:34:32 2017
From: b4 at gewt.net (Cory Smelosky)
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2017 09:34:32 -0700
Subject: [TUHS] 8th Edition Research Unix on SIMHtuhs
In-Reply-To: <CAHfSdrVncr=2NJ5McuMnq+X+Md2LptDcuOjnAK8WTf1ZKUCjfA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20170328205823.45fee6fe@neon.9fans.fr>
 <20170330161620.14f47d53@neon.9fans.fr>
 <20170330203031.065891fd@neon.9fans.fr>
 <CAHfSdrVACgFBYoPy8PrdpKTuxge6zhrEgB=HOmRWNhW9wL7hqw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20170331053614.GE97595@wopr>
 <CAHfSdrVncr=2NJ5McuMnq+X+Md2LptDcuOjnAK8WTf1ZKUCjfA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <2344202B-35C3-416F-AB4E-48EE7599579F@gewt.net>



Sent from my iPhone

> On Mar 31, 2017, at 07:41, Michael Kerpan <mjkerpan at kerpan.com> wrote:
> 
> VMs take up less space in the house :)
> 
>> On Fri, Mar 31, 2017 at 1:36 AM, Kurt H Maier <khm at sciops.net> wrote:
>>> On Fri, Mar 31, 2017 at 01:05:16AM -0400, Michael Kerpan wrote:
>>> Has the Blit emulator been ported to anything other than Plan 9 or
>>> does one need to set up a VM running Plan 9 to test out the graphics?
>> 
>> 9front works fine on actual hardware, no vm necessary.
>> 
>> khm


From norman at oclsc.org  Sat Apr  1 05:16:07 2017
From: norman at oclsc.org (Norman Wilson)
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2017 15:16:07 -0400
Subject: [TUHS]  Ninth Edition incomplete?
Message-ID: <1490987770.25788.for-standards-violators@oclsc.org>

I'll have to have a look at what's actually in the archive,
but it's important to understand that there was barely a
`distribution' of 8/e and never really any of subsequent
systems.

There was a distinct V8 tape, assembled mainly by Dennis
with some help from me, in the fall of 1984.  It did not
exactly match the manuals that were printed, I think only
for internal use, a few months before.  It was sent out
to about a dozen universities (and perhaps other sorts of
non-commercial places), with an individual letter agreement
with each destination to cover licensing.

Anything after that from the original Computing Science
Research Centre was effectively just random snapshots.
There was a Ninth Edition manual printed up, but it still
didn't really match the state of the system, partly
because nobody felt up to doing the all that work and
partly because various parts of the system were still
changing rapidly.

I remember personally making a few such snapshots at
various times, e.g. one for a certain university (again
under a one-off letter agreement), another for the
official UNIX System Labs folks in Summit (I took the
tape over there personally and helped get the system
running).  I have no idea whether any of those is in
Warren's archives, and I don't remember whether anyone
else made any such snapshots, though my role in the group
by then was such that I'd probably have been involved.

The `V9 for Sun' distribution was done by someone from
one of our sister groups.  He took a snapshot of our
system at some point and worked from that.  There wasn't
any organized way to keep his stuff in sync with ours, and
I don't think his stuff got a lot of use in the long run
so there was little motivation to fix that.

All of that at least partly explains the skew between
system and manual pages; it was really like that.  (Remember,
we were a research group, not a production computing
centre or a development shop.)  Snapshots may have been
made hastily enough that some things were missed, too.

The 10/e manual came out in early 1990.  It happened
because enough of us wanted to have a current manual
again, Doug was willing to take on the big task of
overall editing for Volume 1, and Andrew Hume was
energized to make Volume 2 happen--the first Volume 2
since the Seventh Edition.  There was a lot of rewriting,
cleanup, merging of related entries, and discarding of
stuff we no longer used or no longer considered an
official part of the system.  I remember that the first
printed copies arrived just in time for me to get one
before I left the wretched suburbs forever in June 1990.
Since I'd spent a lot of time working over the power-of-two
sections (2 4 8), I was pleased about that.

One thing that helped energize others about that manual,
by the way, was that I felt the parts I was responsible
for were way, way out of date, and that it was no longer
accurate for the system to call itself Ninth Edition
when it booted.  But Edition always meant the manual,
so Tenth Edition would be wrong too.  I made the boot
message say 9Vr2.  I figured that would annoy people
enough to help convince them to help get a new manual
out.  I have no data as to how big a help that was.

I don't know how many `V10 distributions' Warren has
at this point, but one of them is derived from a
snapshot I made during a visit to Bell Labs in 1994
or 1995.  I had rescued some MicroVAXes before they
disappeared into dumpsters, and decided it would be
fun to set up a system or two running Research UNIX
for my private enjoyment.  (I was working at a
university that had a letter agreement for 9/e--one
of the tapes I'd made, in fact--and a certain
department head at Bell Labs decided that as long
as I didn't spread the code around, that was probably
enough to keep lawyers happy.)  I made rather a raw
snapshot of the root, /usr, and the whole master
source-code area, but with /etc/passwd trimmed of
any real passwords.  Some years later (and with the
help of the resulting running systems) I made a
few tar images for Warren to keep in his secret
box pending the license issue (which we were discussing
even back then).  I removed some stuff that didn't
belong to Bell Labs and wasn't really part of the
system (e.g. some big mathematical packages, a huge
bolus of X11 code that had never compiled and never
would), and segregated in a separate tar image some
stuff that was arguably part of the system but that
might technically belong to others (e.g. our workhorse
C compiler was based on pcc2, work scj had done over
at USG/USL after he'd left the Research world).

None of that was really curated either, and there had
certainly been further changes to the system since
the final 1990 manual was printed, not all of which
had been properly reflected in /usr/man.

So don't call those systems distributions, because
they're not.  More important, don't expect them to be
fully coherent, because they aren't: they're snapshots,
not formal releases.

Norman Wilson
Toronto ON


From b4 at gewt.net  Sat Apr  1 05:20:14 2017
From: b4 at gewt.net (Cory Smelosky)
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2017 12:20:14 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [TUHS] TUHS GitHub org
Message-ID: <alpine.BSF.2.20.1703311218050.2245@meaghan.sj.gimme-sympathy.org>

All,

I have created a TUHS-related github org to store:
1). UUCP-related patched software
2). patched/maintained c-news
3). forks et al of newsreaders

Largely just to give a central locatiom.

Usual disclaimers apply...if you want me to delete the org/change 
name/transfer ownership/etc just shoot me an email.

https://github.com/TUHS

-- 
Cory Smelosky
http://gewt.net Personal stuff
http://gimme-sympathy.org Projects


From clemc at ccc.com  Sat Apr  1 05:53:48 2017
From: clemc at ccc.com (Clem Cole)
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2017 15:53:48 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] Ninth Edition incomplete?
In-Reply-To: <1490987770.25788.for-standards-violators@oclsc.org>
References: <1490987770.25788.for-standards-violators@oclsc.org>
Message-ID: <CAC20D2NDV1+L-ecuSVv-4B6=ZRLYxowST572t-JxcR4CTExY6A@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Mar 31, 2017 at 3:16 PM, Norman Wilson <norman at oclsc.org> wrote:

> The 10/e manual came out in early 1990.  It happened
> because enough of us wanted to have a current manual
> again,
>
​Well thank you!    I was on a trip and had stopped into a book store in
Cambridge, UK shortly after it was published and realized I was not going
to see it in the US anytime soon and certainly not in industry which is
where I was by then.   I said, hmmm, I better buy that while I can. So, I
did, and it has lived for years on my shelf in the basement.

Nice to have the official doc and the bits now too ;-)
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From wkt at tuhs.org  Sat Apr  1 08:06:27 2017
From: wkt at tuhs.org (Warren Toomey)
Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2017 08:06:27 +1000
Subject: [TUHS] Tenth Edition: /usr/include + get it running
Message-ID: <20170331220627.GA6506@minnie.tuhs.org>

All, I've just had an e-mail from someone to say that the two 10th Edition
versions we now have in the Unix Archive are missing /usr/include:

----- Forwarded message from someone -----
/usr/include is missing from both Dan's and Norman's archive. Here it
is (with a README). The timestamp on these files is:
-rw-r--r--   1 root  staff     307 Sep  3  1997 README
-rw-r--r--   1 root  staff  829440 Sep  3  1997 r70include.tar
----- End forwarded message -----

I've put these files into
http://www.tuhs.org/Archive/Distributions/Research/Norman_v10/

Now that we have 9th Edition up and running, it would be good to see 10th
Edition also up and running. I know there are people out there who can
help with this, so this is a call out for help and for volunteers.

Cheers, Warren
P.S The UUCP project is now up to 23 sites:
https://github.com/DoctorWkt/4bsd-uucp/blob/4.3BSD/uucp.png


From b4 at gewt.net  Sat Apr  1 08:08:40 2017
From: b4 at gewt.net (Cory Smelosky)
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2017 15:08:40 -0700
Subject: [TUHS] Tenth Edition: /usr/include + get it running
In-Reply-To: <20170331220627.GA6506@minnie.tuhs.org>
References: <20170331220627.GA6506@minnie.tuhs.org>
Message-ID: <D8EB32E5-8C45-4BCA-96D1-CF4D0D949CE5@gewt.net>

We have 9th edition up? I thought we only had 8th!

Also try to run 10th ed was on my weekend plans list ;)

Sent from my iPhone

> On Mar 31, 2017, at 15:06, Warren Toomey <wkt at tuhs.org> wrote:
> 
> All, I've just had an e-mail from someone to say that the two 10th Edition
> versions we now have in the Unix Archive are missing /usr/include:
> 
> ----- Forwarded message from someone -----
> /usr/include is missing from both Dan's and Norman's archive. Here it
> is (with a README). The timestamp on these files is:
> -rw-r--r--   1 root  staff     307 Sep  3  1997 README
> -rw-r--r--   1 root  staff  829440 Sep  3  1997 r70include.tar
> ----- End forwarded message -----
> 
> I've put these files into
> http://www.tuhs.org/Archive/Distributions/Research/Norman_v10/
> 
> Now that we have 9th Edition up and running, it would be good to see 10th
> Edition also up and running. I know there are people out there who can
> help with this, so this is a call out for help and for volunteers.
> 
> Cheers, Warren
> P.S The UUCP project is now up to 23 sites:
> https://github.com/DoctorWkt/4bsd-uucp/blob/4.3BSD/uucp.png


From beebe at math.utah.edu  Sat Apr  1 08:31:15 2017
From: beebe at math.utah.edu (Nelson H. F. Beebe)
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2017 16:31:15 -0600
Subject: [TUHS] 8th Edition Research Unix on SIMH
Message-ID: <CMM.0.96.0.1490999475.beebe@gamma.math.utah.edu>

I was pleased to see the announcement from David du Colombier
<0intro at gmail.com> of a SIMH VAX image for the newly-released 8th
Edition Research Unix, and I had it downloaded and running in short
order.

I compiled and ran the traditional hello-world test in C,
successfully, but the C++ and Fortran companions would not link:

        # cat hello.cpp
        #include <stream>

        int 
        main(void)
        {
          cout << "Hello, world...this is C++" << endl;
          return (0);
        }

        # CC hello.cpp
        cc    hello.cpp -lC
        ld:hello.cpp: bad magic number

I also tried extensions .C, .cxx, and .cc, with the same error.

With Fortran, I get 

        # cat hello.f
              print *,'hello ... This is a Fortran 77 program!'
              end

        # f77 hello.f
        hello.f:
           MAIN:
        Undefined:
        __bufendtab
        _setvbuf

The missing symbols do not appear to be defined anywhere in /lib or
/usr/lib, suggesting that some V8 libraries have been lost.

David reports privately that he sees the same issues that I see.

Can anyone on this list identify the problem?  Normally, Unix
compilers should supply the necessary libraries for
standard-conforming code, and f77 would silently add -lI77 and -lF77.

The C++ compiler issue seems to be quite different: adding the -v
(trace) option shows what it does:

	# CC -v hello.cpp
	cc    -v hello.cpp -lC
	+ ld -X /lib/crt0.o hello.cpp -lC -lc 
	ld:hello.cpp: bad magic number

The source code, rather than the object code, is passed to the loader.
This may have to do with the choice of extension: what did early C++
compilers expect for filenames?

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
- Nelson H. F. Beebe                    Tel: +1 801 581 5254                  -
- University of Utah                    FAX: +1 801 581 4148                  -
- Department of Mathematics, 110 LCB    Internet e-mail: beebe at math.utah.edu  -
- 155 S 1400 E RM 233                       beebe at acm.org  beebe at computer.org -
- Salt Lake City, UT 84112-0090, USA    URL: http://www.math.utah.edu/~beebe/ -
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From noel.hunt at gmail.com  Sat Apr  1 10:40:29 2017
From: noel.hunt at gmail.com (Noel Hunt)
Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2017 11:40:29 +1100
Subject: [TUHS] Ninth Edition incomplete?
In-Reply-To: <530ddda5-58ac-93fd-579e-c697aafd26b9@aueb.gr>
References: <530ddda5-58ac-93fd-579e-c697aafd26b9@aueb.gr>
Message-ID: <CAGfO01wM7WaSQKELVgXAAjQQBY_wJ87r5HJKeM78dV417v57vA@mail.gmail.com>

I have a distribution which I am pretty sure is V9, since there
is a tell-tale comment in dmesg.c:

/*
 * cheap hack
 * V9 vs 9Vr2
 */

and the '9Vr2' chimes with what Norman Wilson said in his recent
mail.

The man subdirectory is there, but I don't think it's complete;
'cmd' has a lot more in it than Norman Wilson's, but I am pretty
sure there is stuff in there that is encumbered somehow, like
'ccom'. If anyone can tell me what to remove, I shall and send
the resulting archive to Warren.  Here is a listing (-F) of
'cmd' (I am using gmail and have tried to set the font to Courier
to keep the formatting for readability; apologies if it somehow
turns into a proportionally spaced font):


512restor.c    dmesg.c        mkfs.c         shares.sh*
AllCharges.sh* dskcpy.c       mknod.c        showq.c
Charges.sh*    du.c           mkstr.c        shstats.c
ac.c           dump/          mm.sh*         size.c
accton.c       dumpcatch.c    mmt.sh*        sleep.c
adb/           dumpdir.c      morse.c        smash.c
agh.c          echo.c         mount.c        sort.c
ar.c           ed.c           mt.c           sp.c
arcv.c         egrep/         mv.c           spline.c
arff.c         eqn/           ncheck.c       split.c
as/            equal/         neqn/          spool/
asa.c          error/         netfsbug.c     stat.c
ascii.c        expand.c       newer.c        strip/
at/            expr/          newgrp.c       stty.c
awk/           factor/        news.c         style/
bad144.c       false.sh*      nice.c         su.c
basename.c     fcopy.c        nm.c           sum.c
bc.y           fgrep.c        nohup.sh*      swapon.c
bcd.c          file.c         number.c       sync.c
bigcore.c      find.c         numdate/       tabs.c
btree/         findo.c        od.c           tail.c
bundle*        flcopy.c       passwd.sh*     tape.c
byteyears.c    fmt.c          passwdx.c      tar.c
c2/            fold.c         paste.c        tbl/
cal.c          fsck.c         pcc1/          tblmount.c
calendar/      fsplit.c       pfort/         tee.c
call.c         getopt.c       pic/           telno.c
cat.c          getty.c        pico/          test.c
cb/            getuid.c       pl.c           time.c
cbt/           grap/          poly/          tk.c
cc.c           graph/         pp/            touch.c
ccom/          grep.c         pr.c           tp/
cflow/         groups.c       prefer/        tpr.c
cflow.sh*      halt.c         pret/          tr.c
cfront/        hang.c         primes/        trace/
charge.c       hdr/           printenv.c     track.c
chdate.c       head.c         printf.c       treesum.c
checkeq.c      hideblock.c    procmount.c    troff/
chmod.c        hoc/           prof.c         tsort/
chown/         hp.c           ps/            tty.c
clear/         icheck.c       pstat.c        twig/
clri.c         id.c           pti.c          ucds.sh*
cmp.c          idiff.c        ptx.c          ul/
col.c          idle.c         punct/         umount.c
comm.c         init.c         pwd.c          und.c
config/        iostat.c       pwintf.c       unexpand.c
coreid.c       ipa/           quot.c         uniq.c
cp/            join.c         random.c       units/
cpio.c         kill.c         ranlib.c       upas/
cpp/           labmake.c      rarepl/        update.c
cref/          last.c         rates.c        user.c
cron.c         lcomp/         readslow.c     ustats.c
ct/            ld.c           reboot.c       v7.c
ctags.c        lex/           reccp.c        v8.c
cut.c          lim.c          refer/         vis.c
cvcrypt.c      limiter.c      reloc.c        visi/
d202.sh*       lint/          remshent.c     vmstat/
daemon/        ln.c           renice.c*      vpr.c
date.c         load/          restor.c       w.c
dblbuf.c       log.c          rev.c          wall.c
dc/            logdir.c       revpag.c       wc.c
dcheck.c       login.c        rm.c           where.sh*
dd.c           look.c         rmdir.c        which.sh*
deroff.c       ls.c           sa.c           who.c
df.c           make/          savecore.c     write.c
dict/          makekey.c      sdb/           wwb/
diction/       markbad.c      sed/           wwv/
diff/          mc.c           seq.c          xargs.c
diff3/         mesg.c         server/        xref/
dircmp.sh      mips.c         setgid.c       xstr.c
dired/         mk/            setlog.c       yacc/
dis.c          mkbitfs.c      settod/        yes.c
dkname.c       mkdir.c        sh/
dkstat.c       mkfile         sharer.c


On Sat, Apr 1, 2017 at 2:34 AM, Diomidis Spinellis <dds at aueb.gr> wrote:

> First, many thanks to all people who made it possible to release v8 to v10
> and especially to Warren for bringing them together.
>
> I went through the files in the Ninth Edition available at
> http://www.tuhs.org/Archive/Distributions/Research/Norman_v9/ and I fear
> that the distribution may be incomplete.  The manual pages for most
> sections are missing.  Also, many v8 /usr/src/cmd commands are not
> available in v9 /cmd.  This is the list of the difference between the two
> sets.
>
> 2621 300 300s 4014 450 512restor ac accton Admin apply arcv arff as asa
> ascii asd at awk bad144 basename bcd bundle byteyears c2 cal calendar
> cb cbt cc ccom cflow cflow checkeq chgrp clri col comm compact compat
> config cref crypt csh ct ctags cvcrypt cyntax daemon dcheck deroff des
> descrypt diction diff3 dircmp dired dmesg dskcpy dump dumpcatch dumpdir
> efl ether ex expand f77 factor false fcopy finddev flcopy fold fsplit
> fstat getopt getuid graph group gsi head hideblock hist hoc hp icheck
> ideal idiff inet install iostat kasb labmake last lcomp ld learn lfactor
> lint load log logdir look m4 mail Mail makekey man map mesg mips mkbitfs
> mkstr monk morse ncheck neqn netfsbug newer news nm number numdate oops
> pack paste pcc1 PDP11 plot primes prof pstat pti ptx punct qed quot
> random rarepl ratfor rcp readslow refer reloc renice reset restor rev
> rp07dump rp07rest sa savecore sdb sdiff seq server settod showq snocone
> spell spline split struct style sum swapon tabs tape tcat tk tp tpr tr
> trace track trim tsort ul und unexpand uniq units upas uucp uudecode
> uuencode v8 value view2d vis where wwb wwv xref xstr yacc yes
>
> Anyone knows what is going on?  Does someone have a more complete
> distribution of the Ninth Edition that Warren can put online?
>
> Diomidis
>
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From jsteve at superglobalmegacorp.com  Sat Apr  1 15:36:22 2017
From: jsteve at superglobalmegacorp.com (jsteve at superglobalmegacorp.com)
Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2017 13:36:22 +0800
Subject: [TUHS] FYI v9 runs on TME
Message-ID: <822d55da-1cba-48b9-9220-60cc69771ac4@SG2APC01FT005.eop-APC01.prod.protection.outlook.com>

For the 99% of us that don’t have a SUN-3, it’ll run on TME.  I followed the instructions on abiyo.net on installing SunOS 4.1.1 onto TME ( http://www.abiyo.net/retrocomputing/installingsunos411tosun3emulatedintme08onlinux ), and then added in the v9.tar file, and walked through the instructions on bootstrapping v9 from SunOS.

I just cheated by copying the SunOS disk into a new scsi disk so I didn’t have to go through the fun of labeling it.  TME emulates a SUN3-150 although the BIOS appears to be for a SUN3-160(?).. so the kernel unix.v75 will work when altering the proto0a file.

TME can be a little (lot!) touchy to get working, but with enough persistence you can get it booting the ‘funinthe’ v9 image.

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

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From imp at bsdimp.com  Sat Apr  1 15:43:58 2017
From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh)
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2017 23:43:58 -0600
Subject: [TUHS] Ninth Edition incomplete?
In-Reply-To: <CAC20D2NDV1+L-ecuSVv-4B6=ZRLYxowST572t-JxcR4CTExY6A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1490987770.25788.for-standards-violators@oclsc.org>
 <CAC20D2NDV1+L-ecuSVv-4B6=ZRLYxowST572t-JxcR4CTExY6A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CANCZdfqkcoGn50WNLaSDUG3oObLK=-FVpE_wD9jOCwwRR_xjsA@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Mar 31, 2017 at 1:53 PM, Clem Cole <clemc at ccc.com> wrote:
>
> On Fri, Mar 31, 2017 at 3:16 PM, Norman Wilson <norman at oclsc.org> wrote:
>>
>> The 10/e manual came out in early 1990.  It happened
>> because enough of us wanted to have a current manual
>> again,
>
> Well thank you!    I was on a trip and had stopped into a book store in
> Cambridge, UK shortly after it was published and realized I was not going to
> see it in the US anytime soon and certainly not in industry which is where I
> was by then.   I said, hmmm, I better buy that while I can. So, I did, and
> it has lived for years on my shelf in the basement.
>
> Nice to have the official doc and the bits now too ;-)

It's starting to look like we need to reconstruct v8, v9 and v10 to
varying degrees based on when snapshots were taken...

Warner


From b4 at gewt.net  Sat Apr  1 15:59:40 2017
From: b4 at gewt.net (Cory Smelosky)
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2017 22:59:40 -0700
Subject: [TUHS] FYI v9 runs on TME
In-Reply-To: <822d55da-1cba-48b9-9220-60cc69771ac4@SG2APC01FT005.eop-APC01.prod.protection.outlook.com>
References: <822d55da-1cba-48b9-9220-60cc69771ac4@SG2APC01FT005.eop-APC01.prod.protection.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <1491026380.1389630.930594288.519397F0@webmail.messagingengine.com>

Have a pre-made image?



I'm busy fighting with an IPX that is convinced the motherboard is
occasionally shorted.




On Fri, Mar 31, 2017, at 22:36, jsteve at superglobalmegacorp.com wrote:

> For the 99% of us that don’t have a SUN-3, it’ll run on TME.  I
> followed the instructions on abiyo.net on installing SunOS 4.1.1 onto
> TME (
> http://www.abiyo.net/retrocomputing/installingsunos411tosun3emulatedintme08onlinux
> ), and then added in the v9.tar file, and walked through the
> instructions on bootstrapping v9 from SunOS.
>  



> I just cheated by copying the SunOS disk into a new scsi disk so I
> didn’t have to go through the fun of labeling it.  TME emulates a SUN3-
> 150 although the BIOS appears to be for a SUN3-160(?).. so the kernel
> unix.v75 will work when altering the proto0a file.
>  



> TME can be a little (lot!) touchy to get working, but with enough
> persistence you can get it booting the ‘funinthe’ v9 image.
>  



> Sent from Mail[1] for Windows 10



>  





--

  Cory Smelosky

  b4 at gewt.net






Links:

  1. https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986
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From jsteve at superglobalmegacorp.com  Sat Apr  1 16:51:18 2017
From: jsteve at superglobalmegacorp.com (jsteve at superglobalmegacorp.com)
Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2017 14:51:18 +0800
Subject: [TUHS] FYI v9 runs on TME
In-Reply-To: <1491026380.1389630.930594288.519397F0@webmail.messagingengine.com>
References: <822d55da-1cba-48b9-9220-60cc69771ac4@SG2APC01FT005.eop-APC01.prod.protection.outlook.com>
 <1491026380.1389630.930594288.519397F0@webmail.messagingengine.com>
Message-ID: <00b0238e-56c2-41ec-9cdb-7813cc266016@SG2APC01FT041.eop-APC01.prod.protection.outlook.com>

It’s far from perfect, but here:

https://sourceforge.net/projects/bsd42/files/4BSD%20under%20Windows/v0/SUN3-research_v9.7z/download

This is my binary, config file and all that jazz…. It’s 40MB compressed and over 1GB uncompressed… 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: Cory Smelosky
Sent: Saturday, 1 April 2017 2:00 PM
To: tuhs at minnie.tuhs.org
Subject: Re: [TUHS] FYI v9 runs on TME

Have a pre-made image?

I'm busy fighting with an IPX that is convinced the motherboard is occasionally shorted.


On Fri, Mar 31, 2017, at 22:36, jsteve at superglobalmegacorp.com wrote:
For the 99% of us that don’t have a SUN-3, it’ll run on TME.  I followed the instructions on abiyo.net on installing SunOS 4.1.1 onto TME ( http://www.abiyo.net/retrocomputing/installingsunos411tosun3emulatedintme08onlinux ), and then added in the v9.tar file, and walked through the instructions on bootstrapping v9 from SunOS.
 
I just cheated by copying the SunOS disk into a new scsi disk so I didn’t have to go through the fun of labeling it.  TME emulates a SUN3-150 although the BIOS appears to be for a SUN3-160(?).. so the kernel unix.v75 will work when altering the proto0a file.
 
TME can be a little (lot!) touchy to get working, but with enough persistence you can get it booting the ‘funinthe’ v9 image.
 
Sent from Mail for Windows 10
 

--
  Cory Smelosky
  b4 at gewt.net



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From doug at cs.dartmouth.edu  Sat Apr  1 23:38:59 2017
From: doug at cs.dartmouth.edu (Doug McIlroy)
Date: Sat, 01 Apr 2017 09:38:59 -0400
Subject: [TUHS]  Ninth Edition incomplete?
Message-ID: <201704011338.v31Dcxh3021120@coolidge.cs.Dartmouth.EDU>

>  Does someone have a more complete distribution of the Ninth Edition
>From the README and file dates, it is clear that what tuhs has had
evolved considerably from the Research system described in the
v9 manual. It had been ported to Sun and outfitted with X11. Some
lacunae are attributable to the absence of /bin shell scripts;
many things were apparently pruned as being of no interest to
the installation at hand.
It should be borne in mind that there never was such a thing
as a "distribution" of v8, v9, or v10. The manuals described
the Research computing environment, not a package prepared
for shipment. Responsibility for the latter had been taken
over by the Unix Support Group.
It would be interesting to have a precis of the provenance
of the system on view.

Doug


From jsteve at superglobalmegacorp.com  Sat Apr  1 23:47:28 2017
From: jsteve at superglobalmegacorp.com (Jason Stevens)
Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2017 21:47:28 +0800
Subject: [TUHS] Ninth Edition incomplete?
In-Reply-To: <201704011338.v31Dcxh3021120@coolidge.cs.Dartmouth.EDU>
References: <201704011338.v31Dcxh3021120@coolidge.cs.Dartmouth.EDU>
Message-ID: <E282B4A9-A92E-40A2-B805-FA911377500A@superglobalmegacorp.com>

I find it striking that v9 is missing stuff like more or less.. I get the feeling that it really was meant to overlay a Tahoe tree, or general UNIX like functionality was not needed on this SUN-3 version of research v9

On April 1, 2017 9:38:59 PM GMT+08:00, Doug McIlroy <doug at cs.dartmouth.edu> wrote:
>>  Does someone have a more complete distribution of the Ninth Edition
>From the README and file dates, it is clear that what tuhs has had
>evolved considerably from the Research system described in the
>v9 manual. It had been ported to Sun and outfitted with X11. Some
>lacunae are attributable to the absence of /bin shell scripts;
>many things were apparently pruned as being of no interest to
>the installation at hand.
>It should be borne in mind that there never was such a thing
>as a "distribution" of v8, v9, or v10. The manuals described
>the Research computing environment, not a package prepared
>for shipment. Responsibility for the latter had been taken
>over by the Unix Support Group.
>It would be interesting to have a precis of the provenance
>of the system on view.
>
>Doug

-- 
Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
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From doug at cs.dartmouth.edu  Sun Apr  2 00:09:47 2017
From: doug at cs.dartmouth.edu (Doug McIlroy)
Date: Sat, 01 Apr 2017 10:09:47 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] Ninth Edition incomplete?
Message-ID: <201704011409.v31E9lx8021528@coolidge.cs.Dartmouth.EDU>

> I find it striking that v9 is missing stuff like more or less.
As indeed you should. No programs are more antithetical to the


From doug at cs.dartmouth.edu  Sun Apr  2 00:27:58 2017
From: doug at cs.dartmouth.edu (Doug McIlroy)
Date: Sat, 01 Apr 2017 10:27:58 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] Ninth Edition incomplete?
In-Reply-To: <E282B4A9-A92E-40A2-B805-FA911377500A@superglobalmegacorp.com>
References: <201704011338.v31Dcxh3021120@coolidge.cs.Dartmouth.EDU>
 <E282B4A9-A92E-40A2-B805-FA911377500A@superglobalmegacorp.com>
Message-ID: <201704011427.v31ERw4e021553@coolidge.cs.Dartmouth.EDU>

> I find it striking that v9 is missing stuff like more or less.

As indeed one should. Few programs better illustrate the contrast
in sensibilities between Gnu and Research Unix. If v9 had --help
(which is a good thing) the counterpart programs would behave 
about like this:
        less --help | wc -l
        233
        p --help | wc -l
	3


From clemc at ccc.com  Sun Apr  2 01:39:24 2017
From: clemc at ccc.com (Clem Cole)
Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2017 11:39:24 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] Ninth Edition incomplete?
In-Reply-To: <201704011427.v31ERw4e021553@coolidge.cs.Dartmouth.EDU>
References: <201704011338.v31Dcxh3021120@coolidge.cs.Dartmouth.EDU>
 <E282B4A9-A92E-40A2-B805-FA911377500A@superglobalmegacorp.com>
 <201704011427.v31ERw4e021553@coolidge.cs.Dartmouth.EDU>
Message-ID: <CAC20D2Pcp9HSp=0YxQx8ZhCEYzVAA5JdnAuDVLCGeNGTTS62jA@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Apr 1, 2017 at 10:27 AM, Doug McIlroy <doug at cs.dartmouth.edu> wrote:

> > I find it striking that v9 is missing stuff like more or less.
>
> As indeed one should. Few programs better illustrate the contrast
> in sensibilities between Gnu and Research Unix. If v9 had --help
> (which is a good thing) the counterpart programs would behave
> about like this:
>         less --help | wc -l
>         233
>         p --help | wc -l
>         3
>
+1 a good morning chuckle on a snowy day in New England.
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From jsqmobile at gmail.com  Mon Apr  3 11:58:03 2017
From: jsqmobile at gmail.com (John S Quarterman)
Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2017 21:58:03 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] UUNET
In-Reply-To: <970ebcd6f057fd09e0335319bb27f0ace8b61b1f@webmail.yaccman.com>
References: <201703300236.v2U2a2oF018229@coolidge.cs.Dartmouth.EDU>
 <970ebcd6f057fd09e0335319bb27f0ace8b61b1f@webmail.yaccman.com>
Message-ID: <CAMQqxCMKT6AKP9O1SP+4roG2zntV6Er08N8_vrybUbcWzjP-=w@mail.gmail.com>

Rick was not on the USENIX board at that time. I had to explain who he was
to some board members. -jsq

On Mar 30, 2017 15:44, "Steve Johnson" <scj at yaccman.com> wrote:

> I had some private email from a couple of this list's members, asking
> about the relationship between UUNET and Usenix.  I presume some
> questions arose because Rick Adams was on the Usenix board, and, although
> we on the Usenix board tried to be open about things it's been
> a while, and apparently some people remain suspicious about what
> happened.  They urged me to share this history with the list:
>
> I'm happy to share my memories of how UUNET came to be associated with,
> and later disassociated from Usenix.
>
> At the time, newsgroups were growing in popularity.  To get a usegroup
> delivered, you had to talk with someone who got the newsgroups and get them
> to agree to call your computer and deliver it -- all communication was
> through modems and phone calls.  The traffic was growing rapidly and it was
> clear that we were heading for a brick wall.   Some universities and
> private companies found themselves with computer phone bills of $10,000 a
> month or higher, and some critical nodes lived in daily fear that somebody
> was going to notice this and shut it down.   Because the network was made
> up of individually negotiated links, this was likely to lead to a snowball
> effect if it got started,
>
> Also, at the time Usenix had a lot of cash.   We were budgeting
> conferences to have 1000 attendees and getting 2500.  We decided as a board
> to offer to help people who could propose a plan to prevent this Usenet
> collapse, and sent out a fairly broad plea to our members for project
> proposals.   We received two.  The first was Lauren Weinstein's, to use
> cable to distribute netnews, and we agreed to help him purchase some
> equipment to upload digital signals to be sent in the "screen refresh"
> signal time (that sounds so dated today!) from a satellite to cable TV.
> He was able to run a successful experiment, but the cable companies and
> Lauren never managed to get together to carry it further.
>
> The other proposal was Rick Adams.  He had already formed a company (to my
> knowledge, the first of what would be called ISPs) and he proposed an
> agreement to distribute netnews at a low cost if we could help him upgrade
> his computer equipment to handle the increased load.  We sought legal help
> to make sure we were not messing up our nonprofit status, and settled on
> the following:  Usenix would guarantee a loan (I recall the amount was
> roughly $250,000) that he would get from a bank, and he would distribute
> netnews at a low cost.  I was treasurer at the time, and went with Rick to
> talk to the bank.   We agreed to open a savings account at the bank and put
> $250,000 into it for the duration of the loan -- since we had a lot of
> cash, this was no problem for us.  In the event that Rick failed, we would
> pay any balance of the loan.  And we asked Rick for regular financial
> statements for the duration of the loan.
>
> As everyone knows now, RIck was extremely successful (he had about 5 years
> of growth at about 15% per month(!) as I recall).  After several years,
> Rick's budget was several times the size of Usenix's, and we mutually
> agreed to dissolve the agreement.  Rick paid off the loan, and the netnews
> disaster never happened.
>
> Looking back on this, there is not a thing I would have done differently
> (except perhaps to buy some stock in uunet!).
>
> Steve
>
>
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From schily at schily.net  Tue Apr  4 03:27:54 2017
From: schily at schily.net (Joerg Schilling)
Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2017 19:27:54 +0200
Subject: [TUHS] Ninth Edition incomplete?
In-Reply-To: <201704011409.v31E9lx8021528@coolidge.cs.Dartmouth.EDU>
References: <201704011409.v31E9lx8021528@coolidge.cs.Dartmouth.EDU>
Message-ID: <58e2861a.KogvSlg4zorp/rXD%schily@schily.net>

Doug McIlroy <doug at cs.dartmouth.edu> wrote:

> > I find it striking that v9 is missing stuff like more or less.
> As indeed you should. No programs are more antithetical to the

If the "more" is based on the "more xpg4" variant of the "more" source from 
SVr4, then it is closed source and the OSF, HP or IBM is preventing a 
redistribution.

Sun mentioned in 2005 that IBM was blocking the wish to make it OSS.

What I've heard from IBM at CeBIT is that IBM today would decide different.

But note that AT&T is (like Sun) only allowed to decide on code that only 
contains Copyright messages from AT&T and/or Sun.

Jörg

-- 
 EMail:joerg at schily.net                  (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin
       joerg.schilling at fokus.fraunhofer.de (work) Blog: http://schily.blogspot.com/
 URL:  http://cdrecord.org/private/ http://sourceforge.net/projects/schilytools/files/


From random832 at fastmail.com  Tue Apr  4 23:07:20 2017
From: random832 at fastmail.com (Random832)
Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2017 09:07:20 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] Ninth Edition incomplete?
In-Reply-To: <58e2861a.KogvSlg4zorp/rXD%schily@schily.net>
References: <201704011409.v31E9lx8021528@coolidge.cs.Dartmouth.EDU>
 <58e2861a.KogvSlg4zorp/rXD%schily@schily.net>
Message-ID: <1491311240.2176907.933710408.06BF38F4@webmail.messagingengine.com>

On Mon, Apr 3, 2017, at 13:27, Joerg Schilling wrote:
> Doug McIlroy <doug at cs.dartmouth.edu> wrote:
> 
> > > I find it striking that v9 is missing stuff like more or less.
> > As indeed you should. No programs are more antithetical to the
> 
> If the "more" is based on the "more xpg4" variant of the "more" source
> from 
> SVr4, then it is closed source and the OSF, HP or IBM is preventing a 
> redistribution.

I haven't looked at V9, but the V10 manual mentions that the "more"
command is locally an alias to its extremely minimalistic "p" pager.


From doug at cs.dartmouth.edu  Wed Apr  5 05:15:53 2017
From: doug at cs.dartmouth.edu (Doug McIlroy)
Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2017 15:15:53 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] How did you ...
Message-ID: <201704041915.v34JFrX9085938@tahoe.cs.Dartmouth.EDU>

> [cpp] only became a separate program later than [v6]

It came into the manual in v8.


From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Wed Apr  5 06:04:42 2017
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Tue,  4 Apr 2017 16:04:42 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [TUHS] How did you ...
Message-ID: <20170404200442.D817718C0C5@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > From: Doug McIlroy

    >> [cpp] only became a separate program later than [v6]

    > It came into the manual in v8.

Separate program in the V7 distro, though:

  http://minnie.tuhs.org/cgi-bin/utree.pl?file=V7/usr/src/cmd/cpp

    Noel


From schily at schily.net  Tue Apr  4 23:14:11 2017
From: schily at schily.net (Joerg Schilling)
Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2017 15:14:11 +0200
Subject: [TUHS] Ninth Edition incomplete?
In-Reply-To: <1491311240.2176907.933710408.06BF38F4@webmail.messagingengine.com>
References: <201704011409.v31E9lx8021528@coolidge.cs.Dartmouth.EDU>
 <58e2861a.KogvSlg4zorp/rXD%schily@schily.net>
 <1491311240.2176907.933710408.06BF38F4@webmail.messagingengine.com>
Message-ID: <58e39c23.Padetfq100/H/b8t%schily@schily.net>

Random832 <random832 at fastmail.com> wrote:

> I haven't looked at V9, but the V10 manual mentions that the "more"
> command is locally an alias to its extremely minimalistic "p" pager.

Interesting that they created a name clash:

	"p" was the name of a pager on UNOS, the first realtime
	UNIX lookalike from former AT&T employees.

BTW: "p" as an enhanced clone of the UNOS "p" exists in schilytools since 1984.

Jörg

-- 
 EMail:joerg at schily.net                  (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin
       joerg.schilling at fokus.fraunhofer.de (work) Blog: http://schily.blogspot.com/
 URL:  http://cdrecord.org/private/ http://sourceforge.net/projects/schilytools/files/


From norman at oclsc.org  Wed Apr  5 07:01:32 2017
From: norman at oclsc.org (Norman Wilson)
Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2017 17:01:32 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] Ninth Edition incomplete?
Message-ID: <1491339696.4772.for-standards-violators@oclsc.org>

Joerg Schilling:

  Interesting that they created a name clash:

	"p" was the name of a pager on UNOS, the first realtime
	UNIX lookalike from former AT&T employees.

=====

p was something Rob Pike brought when he arrived in
1980.  I believe he wrote its first version several
years earlier, when he was at the University of Toronto.

Since UNOS dates from 1981 (says Wikipedia), I think
Rob's p gets precedence.

Not that it matters.  There never was, nor should there
ever have been, some global register of UNIX command
names during its formative years.  UNIX was a research
platform and a living work-in-progress until it became
productized in the latter part of the 1980s.

And, of course, UNOS was a lookalike written from scratch.
It wasn't UNIX.  If it wanted to be, it should have
adopted Rob's p!

Norman Wilson
Toronto ON
(Not in a particularly serious mood)


From norman at oclsc.org  Wed Apr  5 07:02:34 2017
From: norman at oclsc.org (Norman Wilson)
Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2017 17:02:34 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] How did you ...
Message-ID: <1491339757.4954.for-standards-violators@oclsc.org>

Noel Chiappa:

  Separate program in the V7 distro, though:

  http://minnie.tuhs.org/cgi-bin/utree.pl?file=V7/usr/src/cmd/cpp

====

Indeed it was.  I recall people using it, calling it by
its full pathname, /lib/cpp.

Norman Wilson
Toronto ON


From lyndon at orthanc.ca  Wed Apr  5 13:28:56 2017
From: lyndon at orthanc.ca (Lyndon Nerenberg)
Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2017 20:28:56 -0700
Subject: [TUHS] IP in v8-v10
In-Reply-To: <201703300236.v2U2a2oF018229@coolidge.cs.Dartmouth.EDU>
References: <201703300236.v2U2a2oF018229@coolidge.cs.Dartmouth.EDU>
Message-ID: <8B592580-73AE-4F72-8BD1-00A6C17B0ED1@orthanc.ca>


> On Mar 29, 2017, at 7:36 PM, Doug McIlroy <doug at cs.dartmouth.edu> wrote:
> 
> icont, iconc Arizona

Griswald's Icon bits are redistributable.

I had the set of books to go with, once upon a time ...  It was an interesting language.  I wrote a very early "web application" in Icon, circa 1996.  A roughly 100 line script running on BSD that replaced some monster application that sunk a Windows NT "server" when the web query load hit > one per second ;-)

--lyndon



From peter at rulingia.com  Wed Apr  5 16:25:49 2017
From: peter at rulingia.com (Peter Jeremy)
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2017 16:25:49 +1000
Subject: [TUHS] [Uucp] utzoo
In-Reply-To: <alpine.BSF.2.20.1703311658390.72701@aneurin.horsfall.org>
References: <20170330074552.GA32142@minnie.tuhs.org>
 <alpine.BSF.2.20.1703311658390.72701@aneurin.horsfall.org>
Message-ID: <20170405062549.GG39557@server.rulingia.com>

On 2017-Mar-31 17:03:24 +1100, Dave Horsfall <dave at horsfall.org> wrote:
>On Thu, 30 Mar 2017, Warren Toomey via Uucp wrote:
>
>> On 03/29/2017 11:09 PM, Dave Horsfall via Uucp wrote:
>> > Let the cancel/rmgroup/flame wars begin :-)
>> 
>> :-P
>
>And I still bear the scars from the aus.bizarre war...  And I'll bet that
>not many people remember that little episode :-)

Who is going to take the roll of "Iron Bar"?

-- 
Peter Jeremy
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From clemc at ccc.com  Wed Apr  5 22:48:05 2017
From: clemc at ccc.com (Clem Cole)
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2017 08:48:05 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] IP in v8-v10
In-Reply-To: <8B592580-73AE-4F72-8BD1-00A6C17B0ED1@orthanc.ca>
References: <201703300236.v2U2a2oF018229@coolidge.cs.Dartmouth.EDU>
 <8B592580-73AE-4F72-8BD1-00A6C17B0ED1@orthanc.ca>
Message-ID: <CAC20D2M-fhoJ5Z81-TDZserDPGNuiTVqu7KurPaOJ-sGUPmcUQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Apr 4, 2017 at 11:28 PM, Lyndon Nerenberg <lyndon at orthanc.ca> wrote:

> Griswald's Icon bits are redistributable.


​I can verify that - its was BSD style license (and a cool language).​
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From norman at oclsc.org  Thu Apr  6 02:08:49 2017
From: norman at oclsc.org (Norman Wilson)
Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2017 12:08:49 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] Ninth Edition incomplete?
Message-ID: <1491408534.24420.for-standards-violators@oclsc.org>

Joerg Schilling:

  BTW: UNOS has been sold to real customers from it's beginning. Was UNIX V8 
  available outside AT&T?

=====

I'm not sure what that has to do with anything.  Which
of your body parts is so small as to make you insecure,
and which UNIX distributions are your body parts drawn
from?

To answer the question seriously, though: as I think I've
already explained here, Eighth Edition UNIX was available
under special per-site licensing (a letter agreement) to
educational institutions.  I'm not sure what the official
criterion was: I helped make the tape, but wasn't involved
in the paperwork.  I believe the total was about a dozen
places.  A few of them did interesting work with the
system that was published e.g. at USENIX conferences
(Princeton comes to mind), but most I think never even
booted the system up.  By then there were other members
of the UNIX family that were more comfortable for general
use, and people were more interested in the ideas than
in the code.

And of course we were a research group.  We weren't making
things for customers.  We were sharing our work, to the
extent the laywers and our own limited resources allowed.

That was the last time the Computing Science Research
Center attempted anything like a formal distribution.
Any `distributions' after that are just snapshots of
a constantly-evolving system.

Norman Wilson
Toronto ON
(Body parts not available on github.  Sorry.)


From schily at schily.net  Wed Apr  5 19:29:14 2017
From: schily at schily.net (Joerg Schilling)
Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2017 11:29:14 +0200
Subject: [TUHS] How did you ...
In-Reply-To: <201704041915.v34JFrX9085938@tahoe.cs.Dartmouth.EDU>
References: <201704041915.v34JFrX9085938@tahoe.cs.Dartmouth.EDU>
Message-ID: <58e4b8ea.YIwfY3GYu0DFQsAD%schily@schily.net>

Doug McIlroy <doug at cs.dartmouth.edu> wrote:

> > [cpp] only became a separate program later than [v6]
>
> It came into the manual in v8.

But it's source has been part of UNIX 32V, so it has become part of the 
historical UNIX licensed parts and I could take the source to create a modern 
K&R cpp with the features seen on Solaris in /lib/cpp.

BTW: I had to do this port and the related enhancements because "dtrace", "asm" 
and "rpcgen" depend on a K&R cpp that does not destroy line breaks and that 
marks include levels. OpenSolaris requires this "cpp" for compilation.

See: 
https://sourceforge.net/p/schillix-on/schillix-on/ci/default/tree/usr/src/cmd/cpp/

Also see the original README from the "cpp" directory in 32V:

/*--------------------------------------------------------------------------*/
August 25, 1978

Files in this directory form the C preprocessor, which handles '#include'
files and macro definition and expansion for the C compiler.
This new version was written by John F. Reiser and is from 5 to 12
times faster (on UNIX systems) than the old.

To create the executable file 'cpp' in the current directory:
        make
...
/*--------------------------------------------------------------------------*/

Jörg

-- 
 EMail:joerg at schily.net                  (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin
       joerg.schilling at fokus.fraunhofer.de (work) Blog: http://schily.blogspot.com/
 URL:  http://cdrecord.org/private/ http://sourceforge.net/projects/schilytools/files/


From schily at schily.net  Wed Apr  5 19:39:17 2017
From: schily at schily.net (Joerg Schilling)
Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2017 11:39:17 +0200
Subject: [TUHS] Ninth Edition incomplete?
In-Reply-To: <1491339696.4772.for-standards-violators@oclsc.org>
References: <1491339696.4772.for-standards-violators@oclsc.org>
Message-ID: <58e4bb45.NR3fCQZoVJ+itHfx%schily@schily.net>

Norman Wilson <norman at oclsc.org> wrote:

> Joerg Schilling:
>
>   Interesting that they created a name clash:
>
> 	"p" was the name of a pager on UNOS, the first realtime
> 	UNIX lookalike from former AT&T employees.
>
> =====
>
> p was something Rob Pike brought when he arrived in
> 1980.  I believe he wrote its first version several
> years earlier, when he was at the University of Toronto.

The timestamp for p.c in V8 is:

	May 30 06:56 1983

Do you have a link to verify that it has been created earlier?

> Since UNOS dates from 1981 (says Wikipedia), I think
> Rob's p gets precedence.

p from UNOS was written by Jeff Goldberg in 1981 or 1982.

> Not that it matters.  There never was, nor should there
> ever have been, some global register of UNIX command
> names during its formative years.  UNIX was a research
> platform and a living work-in-progress until it became
> productized in the latter part of the 1980s.

Well, in practice people managed this problem nicely.
The annoying name clashes I am aware of are less than 20 years old.

> And, of course, UNOS was a lookalike written from scratch.
> It wasn't UNIX.  If it wanted to be, it should have
> adopted Rob's p!

Well, if Rob's p existed before and was available as OSS.....

The background for UNOS in it's first glance was that Jeff Goldberg wanted to 
rewrite UNIX from scratch in less than a year. I believe, he did a pretty good
job.

BTW: UNOS has been sold to real customers from it's beginning. Was UNIX V8 
available outside AT&T?

Jörg

-- 
 EMail:joerg at schily.net                  (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin
       joerg.schilling at fokus.fraunhofer.de (work) Blog: http://schily.blogspot.com/
 URL:  http://cdrecord.org/private/ http://sourceforge.net/projects/schilytools/files/


From wkt at tuhs.org  Thu Apr  6 08:22:55 2017
From: wkt at tuhs.org (Warren Toomey)
Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2017 08:22:55 +1000
Subject: [TUHS] A decision
Message-ID: <20170405222255.GA4109@minnie.tuhs.org>

All, in the 25 years of running this list, generally things have gone
well and I've not had to make many unilateral decisions. But today I
have chosen to unsubscribe Joerg Schilling from the list.

I'm sending this e-mail in so that there is a level of transparency here.
I've sent Joerg an e-mail outlining my reasons.

Cheers, Warren


From noel.hunt at gmail.com  Thu Apr  6 08:29:32 2017
From: noel.hunt at gmail.com (Noel Hunt)
Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2017 08:29:32 +1000
Subject: [TUHS] [Uucp] utzoo
In-Reply-To: <20170405062549.GG39557@server.rulingia.com>
References: <20170330074552.GA32142@minnie.tuhs.org>
 <alpine.BSF.2.20.1703311658390.72701@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <20170405062549.GG39557@server.rulingia.com>
Message-ID: <CAGfO01x7L79Sx-GuZ8DFif_bEgFA1fwi3g426yNK04jjY8+6Hg@mail.gmail.com>

Ah, 'Iron Bar'. We shared an office at Sydney University, Department
of Computer Science from 1987-1990. I don't recall if John was still
engulfed in the flame wars during that period as I wasn't party to any of
it.


On Wed, Apr 5, 2017 at 4:25 PM, Peter Jeremy <peter at rulingia.com> wrote:

> On 2017-Mar-31 17:03:24 +1100, Dave Horsfall <dave at horsfall.org> wrote:
> >On Thu, 30 Mar 2017, Warren Toomey via Uucp wrote:
> >
> >> On 03/29/2017 11:09 PM, Dave Horsfall via Uucp wrote:
> >> > Let the cancel/rmgroup/flame wars begin :-)
> >>
> >> :-P
> >
> >And I still bear the scars from the aus.bizarre war...  And I'll bet that
> >not many people remember that little episode :-)
>
> Who is going to take the roll of "Iron Bar"?
>
> --
> Peter Jeremy
>
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From dave at horsfall.org  Thu Apr  6 08:52:29 2017
From: dave at horsfall.org (Dave Horsfall)
Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2017 08:52:29 +1000 (EST)
Subject: [TUHS] [Uucp] utzoo
In-Reply-To: <20170405062549.GG39557@server.rulingia.com>
References: <20170330074552.GA32142@minnie.tuhs.org>
 <alpine.BSF.2.20.1703311658390.72701@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <20170405062549.GG39557@server.rulingia.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.BSF.2.20.1704060851280.81763@aneurin.horsfall.org>

On Wed, 5 Apr 2017, Peter Jeremy wrote:

> >And I still bear the scars from the aus.bizarre war...  And I'll bet 
> >that not many people remember that little episode :-)
> 
> Who is going to take the roll of "Iron Bar"?

Oh gawd...  It was a sad day when we lost him; I really missed him.

-- 
Dave Horsfall DTM (VK2KFU)  "Those who don't understand security will suffer."


From noel.hunt at gmail.com  Thu Apr  6 09:27:07 2017
From: noel.hunt at gmail.com (Noel Hunt)
Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2017 09:27:07 +1000
Subject: [TUHS] [Uucp] utzoo
In-Reply-To: <alpine.BSF.2.20.1704060851280.81763@aneurin.horsfall.org>
References: <20170330074552.GA32142@minnie.tuhs.org>
 <alpine.BSF.2.20.1703311658390.72701@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <20170405062549.GG39557@server.rulingia.com>
 <alpine.BSF.2.20.1704060851280.81763@aneurin.horsfall.org>
Message-ID: <CAGfO01x_JhxDS=3f=jg3cwfZgo7Fz1OoAmU23R-1LF1G267BNQ@mail.gmail.com>

John was certainly...different.

Here is a file I found in his home directory after
he was no longer with us:

        A Short History
              of
          John Mackin
              or
How I Learned to Stop Worrying and
        Love the Machine


I was born in the dawn of computing, three
days after the first FORTRAN compiler became
operational.  My first words were "BALR R4".

My introduction to modern computing was on
a DECsystem-10 (which shall remain nameless).
Continuing down the track with Digital
hardware, I found out about PDP-11s and acquired
a reputation as the Man who could Answer Hard
Questions.  I became completely nocturnal in
order to get better system response and avoid
landlords.  I ate lots of pizzas, and knew the
octal encoding for any -10 or -11 instruction.

But there was something missing.

In 1977 I saw Level 6 UNIX (a trademark, of
course, of AT&T Bell Laboratories).  It was
queer, and it was very buggy, and it was
running on a very unstable 11/40.  But it
had that ``je ne sais quoi''.  From that
time on, it's been a never-ending progression:
through V7, system III, PWB, AUSAM and Berkeley
to System V, and now Release 2.0.  Sometimes
advocating and sometimes resisting creeping
featurism, I can still Answer Hard Questions
(and amazingly trivial ones too).  The secret
is to read the manuals -- but I long ago despaired
of getting others to do that.

My interests, apart from UNIX (you mean there IS
something apart from UNIX?), are -- well -- I'm
sure I USED to have some ... ...


On Thu, Apr 6, 2017 at 8:52 AM, Dave Horsfall <dave at horsfall.org> wrote:

> On Wed, 5 Apr 2017, Peter Jeremy wrote:
>
> > >And I still bear the scars from the aus.bizarre war...  And I'll bet
> > >that not many people remember that little episode :-)
> >
> > Who is going to take the roll of "Iron Bar"?
>
> Oh gawd...  It was a sad day when we lost him; I really missed him.
>
> --
> Dave Horsfall DTM (VK2KFU)  "Those who don't understand security will
> suffer."
>
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From peter at rulingia.com  Thu Apr  6 09:44:21 2017
From: peter at rulingia.com (Peter Jeremy)
Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2017 09:44:21 +1000
Subject: [TUHS] [Uucp] utzoo
In-Reply-To: <alpine.BSF.2.20.1704060851280.81763@aneurin.horsfall.org>
References: <20170330074552.GA32142@minnie.tuhs.org>
 <alpine.BSF.2.20.1703311658390.72701@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <20170405062549.GG39557@server.rulingia.com>
 <alpine.BSF.2.20.1704060851280.81763@aneurin.horsfall.org>
Message-ID: <20170405234421.GI39557@server.rulingia.com>

On 2017-Apr-06 08:52:29 +1000, Dave Horsfall <dave at horsfall.org> wrote:
>On Wed, 5 Apr 2017, Peter Jeremy wrote:
>
>> >And I still bear the scars from the aus.bizarre war...  And I'll bet 
>> >that not many people remember that little episode :-)
>> 
>> Who is going to take the roll of "Iron Bar"?

That should be "role", of course.

>Oh gawd...  It was a sad day when we lost him; I really missed him.

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/rec.food.cooking/0io1y7c-bTI was
the first hit I found to his obituary.

Does anyone know what happened to Rev Dr Phil Herring?

-- 
Peter Jeremy
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From dave at horsfall.org  Thu Apr  6 10:25:11 2017
From: dave at horsfall.org (Dave Horsfall)
Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2017 10:25:11 +1000 (EST)
Subject: [TUHS] [Uucp] utzoo
In-Reply-To: <20170405234421.GI39557@server.rulingia.com>
References: <20170330074552.GA32142@minnie.tuhs.org>
 <alpine.BSF.2.20.1703311658390.72701@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <20170405062549.GG39557@server.rulingia.com>
 <alpine.BSF.2.20.1704060851280.81763@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <20170405234421.GI39557@server.rulingia.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.BSF.2.20.1704061013410.81763@aneurin.horsfall.org>

On Thu, 6 Apr 2017, Peter Jeremy wrote:

> https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/rec.food.cooking/0io1y7c-bTI was 
> the first hit I found to his obituary.

Funny how much you find out about someone after they've gone; I didn't 
know that he was a US citizen, and was into Amateur radio (anyone know his 
callsign?) for example.

> Does anyone know what happened to Rev Dr Phil Herring?

Now there was a character; last I heard (some years back) the good RevDoc 
had left Wollongong Uni and was wearing a suit.  It's possible that he's 
the one mentioned at LinkedIn: 
https://www.linkedin.com/in/phil-herring-27553894 as it mentions CompSci 
at Wollongong Uni...

-- 
Dave Horsfall DTM (VK2KFU)  "Those who don't understand security will suffer."


From wes.parish at paradise.net.nz  Thu Apr  6 11:18:24 2017
From: wes.parish at paradise.net.nz (Wesley Parish)
Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2017 13:18:24 +1200 (NZST)
Subject: [TUHS] Unix clones
Message-ID: <1491441504.58e5976086fec@www.paradise.net.nz>

The mention of UNOS a realtime "clone" of Unix in a recent thread raises a question for me. How many 
Unix clones are there?

(My interest in Unix was the result of a local computer magazine, Bits'n'Bytes in the late 80s and early 90s 
discussing two clones, Minix and Coherent in its Unix column. Then came Linux ...)

We've got a timeline (in several forms, in the 4.3BSD and 4.4BSD books and The Magic Garden, on Groklaw, 
and elsewhere) for Unix and its developments; has anyone done one for the clones?

Thanks

Wesley Parish

"I have supposed that he who buys a Method means to learn it." - Ferdinand Sor,
Method for Guitar

"A verbal contract isn't worth the paper it's written on." -- Samuel Goldwyn


From pechter at gmail.com  Thu Apr  6 11:30:33 2017
From: pechter at gmail.com (William Pechter)
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2017 21:30:33 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] Unix clones
In-Reply-To: <1491441504.58e5976086fec@www.paradise.net.nz>
References: <1491441504.58e5976086fec@www.paradise.net.nz>
Message-ID: <ea552ded-b728-4c14-7909-59b9d3ed8e1b@gmail.com>

Wesley Parish wrote:
> The mention of UNOS a realtime "clone" of Unix in a recent thread raises a question for me. How many 
> Unix clones are there?
>
> (My interest in Unix was the result of a local computer magazine, Bits'n'Bytes in the late 80s and early 90s 
> discussing two clones, Minix and Coherent in its Unix column. Then came Linux ...)
>
> We've got a timeline (in several forms, in the 4.3BSD and 4.4BSD books and The Magic Garden, on Groklaw, 
> and elsewhere) for Unix and its developments; has anyone done one for the clones?
>
> Thanks
>
> Wesley Parish
>
> "I have supposed that he who buys a Method means to learn it." - Ferdinand Sor,
> Method for Guitar
>
> "A verbal contract isn't worth the paper it's written on." -- Samuel Goldwyn
Idris from Whitesmiths once passed through my hands... I actually
skipped that one for UniPlus SysIII and SysV  on the
Perkin-Elmer 7350 box with a dip packaged  68000...

I ran Coherent until I got  the hardware to go 386-BSD, NetBSD, FreeBSD,
and Linux 0.99.xx (SLS and later Slackware).

Before the UniPlus I ran Xenix-86 on an AT&T 6300 with a Nec V30 (not a
6300+ 286 box).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unix-like

Bill


From jsteve at superglobalmegacorp.com  Thu Apr  6 12:15:27 2017
From: jsteve at superglobalmegacorp.com (Jason Stevens)
Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2017 10:15:27 +0800
Subject: [TUHS] I just noticed all the cfont aka C++ in research
Message-ID: <5F2D4901-9FEC-4CF8-9D08-AA4342C1F465@superglobalmegacorp.com>

I suppose that it would make sense that all of AT&T's leading edge projects would use research Unix.  I've always heard of the original C++ to C translator but this is the first time I've actually seen it.

It doesn't look like it had the wide scale following that C or Fortan had at this point.

Sadly my experience with C++ was mostly tied to Borland on the micro in early 90's, which makes it look mature compared to these early versions.

It's great finding stuff like this in the tree hiding in plain sight, if only you know what to look for. (http://unix.superglobalmegacorp.com/cgi-bin/cvsweb.cgi/researchv9/cmd/cfront/?cvsroot=rv9)

Or that emacs was in the v9 tree, in the religious wars I always imagined NJ being more vi.  

Thanks again for making this release happen!

-- 
Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
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From noel.hunt at gmail.com  Thu Apr  6 12:20:26 2017
From: noel.hunt at gmail.com (Noel Hunt)
Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2017 12:20:26 +1000
Subject: [TUHS] I just noticed all the cfont aka C++ in research
In-Reply-To: <5F2D4901-9FEC-4CF8-9D08-AA4342C1F465@superglobalmegacorp.com>
References: <5F2D4901-9FEC-4CF8-9D08-AA4342C1F465@superglobalmegacorp.com>
Message-ID: <CAGfO01xsyAWj=X=yUuC3hfbc+_=7606SP9X5bdCC6aS15c4FNg@mail.gmail.com>

> Or that emacs was in the v9 tree, in the religious wars
> I always imagined NJ being more vi.

I would be very much surprised if jim/sam was not the editor
of choice (apart from Ken Thompson who seemed content with
'ed').


On Thu, Apr 6, 2017 at 12:15 PM, Jason Stevens <
jsteve at superglobalmegacorp.com> wrote:

> I suppose that it would make sense that all of AT&T's leading edge
> projects would use research Unix. I've always heard of the original C++ to
> C translator but this is the first time I've actually seen it.
>
> It doesn't look like it had the wide scale following that C or Fortan had
> at this point.
>
> Sadly my experience with C++ was mostly tied to Borland on the micro in
> early 90's, which makes it look mature compared to these early versions.
>
> It's great finding stuff like this in the tree hiding in plain sight, if
> only you know what to look for. (http://unix.superglobalmegacorp.com/cgi-
> bin/cvsweb.cgi/researchv9/cmd/cfront/?cvsroot=rv9)
>
> Or that emacs was in the v9 tree, in the religious wars I always imagined
> NJ being more vi.
>
> Thanks again for making this release happen!
>
> --
> Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
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From jsteve at superglobalmegacorp.com  Thu Apr  6 12:21:38 2017
From: jsteve at superglobalmegacorp.com (Jason Stevens)
Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2017 10:21:38 +0800
Subject: [TUHS] I just noticed all the cfont aka C++ in research
In-Reply-To: <CAGfO01xsyAWj=X=yUuC3hfbc+_=7606SP9X5bdCC6aS15c4FNg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <5F2D4901-9FEC-4CF8-9D08-AA4342C1F465@superglobalmegacorp.com>
 <CAGfO01xsyAWj=X=yUuC3hfbc+_=7606SP9X5bdCC6aS15c4FNg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <F79769A5-2991-487F-85F9-CA026C1A2868@superglobalmegacorp.com>

I need to get one of those new fangled graphical terminals working!

On April 6, 2017 10:20:26 AM GMT+08:00, Noel Hunt <noel.hunt at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Or that emacs was in the v9 tree, in the religious wars
>> I always imagined NJ being more vi.
>
>
>I would be very much surprised if jim/sam was not the editor
>of choice (apart from Ken Thompson who seemed content with
>'ed').
>
>
>
>On Thu, Apr 6, 2017 at 12:15 PM, Jason Stevens <
>jsteve at superglobalmegacorp.com <mailto:jsteve at superglobalmegacorp.com>
>>
>wrote:
>
>
>I suppose that it would make sense that all of AT&T's leading edge
>projects would use research Unix. I've always heard of the original C++
>to C translator but this is the first time I've actually seen it.
>
>It doesn't look like it had the wide scale following that C or Fortan
>had at this point.
>
>Sadly my experience with C++ was mostly tied to Borland on the micro in
>early 90's, which makes it look mature compared to these early
>versions.
>
>It's great finding stuff like this in the tree hiding in plain sight,
>if
>only you know what to look for. ( http://unix.
><http://unix.superglobalmegacorp.com/cgi-bin/cvsweb.cgi/researchv9/cmd/c
>front/?cvsroot=rv9>
>superglobalmegacorp.com/cgi-bin/cvsweb.cgi/researchv9/cmd/cfront/?cvsroo
>t=rv9)
>
>Or that emacs was in the v9 tree, in the religious wars I always
>imagined NJ being more vi. 
>
>Thanks again for making this release happen!
>
>-- 
>Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.

-- 
Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
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From paul at mcjones.org  Thu Apr  6 12:42:13 2017
From: paul at mcjones.org (Paul McJones)
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2017 19:42:13 -0700
Subject: [TUHS] I just noticed all the cfont aka C++ in research
In-Reply-To: <mailman.721.1491445316.3779.tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org>
References: <mailman.721.1491445316.3779.tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org>
Message-ID: <B3B2E3D6-EBEF-49D7-902A-F0A7A33A6374@mcjones.org>

> I suppose that it would make sense that all of AT&T's leading edge projects would use research Unix.  I've always heard of the original C++ to C translator but this is the first time I've actually seen it.

In case you’re interested, Bjarne Stroustrup has been helping me collect early versions of cfront here:

http://www.softwarepreservation.org/projects/c_plus_plus/#cfront

Previously we had located a listing of Release E (which we scanned), source for Release 1.0 of 10/10/85, and source for Release 3.0.3. From these 9th and 10th edition snapshots, cfront 1.2.2 6/10/87, AT&T C++ Translator 2.00 06/30/89, AT&T C++ Translator 2.1.0+ 04/01/90, and AT&T C++ Translator 2.1++ 08/24/90 join the list. 
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From jsteve at superglobalmegacorp.com  Thu Apr  6 13:20:10 2017
From: jsteve at superglobalmegacorp.com (Jason Stevens)
Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2017 11:20:10 +0800
Subject: [TUHS] I just noticed all the cfont aka C++ in research
Message-ID: <0F0B9BFC06289346B88512B91E55670D2FFA@EXCHANGE>

wow thats perfect, thanks!

> ----------
> From: 	Paul McJones
> Sent: 	Thursday, April 6, 2017 10:42 AM
> To: 	tuhs at minnie.tuhs.org
> Cc: 	Jason Stevens
> Subject: 	Re: [TUHS] I just noticed all the cfont aka C++ in research
> 
> 	I suppose that it would make sense that all of AT&T's leading edge
> projects would use research Unix.  I've always heard of the original C++
> to C translator but this is the first time I've actually seen it.
> 
> 
> 
> In case you're interested, Bjarne Stroustrup has been helping me collect
> early versions of cfront here:
> 
> 
> 	http://www.softwarepreservation.org/projects/c_plus_plus/#cfront
> 
> 
> Previously we had located a listing of Release E (which we scanned),
> source for Release 1.0 of 10/10/85, and source for Release 3.0.3. From
> these 9th and 10th edition snapshots, cfront 1.2.2 6/10/87, AT&T C++
> Translator 2.00 06/30/89, AT&T C++ Translator 2.1.0+ 04/01/90, and AT&T
> C++ Translator 2.1++ 08/24/90 join the list. 
> 


From arnold at skeeve.com  Thu Apr  6 15:34:37 2017
From: arnold at skeeve.com (arnold at skeeve.com)
Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2017 23:34:37 -0600
Subject: [TUHS] [Uucp] utzoo
In-Reply-To: <alpine.BSF.2.20.1704060851280.81763@aneurin.horsfall.org>
References: <20170330074552.GA32142@minnie.tuhs.org>
 <alpine.BSF.2.20.1703311658390.72701@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <20170405062549.GG39557@server.rulingia.com>
 <alpine.BSF.2.20.1704060851280.81763@aneurin.horsfall.org>
Message-ID: <201704060534.v365YbDl032304@freefriends.org>

> On Wed, 5 Apr 2017, Peter Jeremy wrote:
> > >And I still bear the scars from the aus.bizarre war...  And I'll bet 
> > >that not many people remember that little episode :-)

Dave Horsfall <dave at horsfall.org> wrote:
> > Who is going to take the roll of "Iron Bar"?
>
> Oh gawd...  It was a sad day when we lost him; I really missed him.

What's the story here, for us non-Aussies?  I have no clue as to what
either aus.bizarre was or who "Iron Bar" was.

Thanks,

Arnold


From arnold at skeeve.com  Thu Apr  6 15:42:17 2017
From: arnold at skeeve.com (arnold at skeeve.com)
Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2017 23:42:17 -0600
Subject: [TUHS] [Uucp] utzoo
In-Reply-To: <201704060534.v365YbDl032304@freefriends.org>
References: <20170330074552.GA32142@minnie.tuhs.org>
 <alpine.BSF.2.20.1703311658390.72701@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <20170405062549.GG39557@server.rulingia.com>
 <alpine.BSF.2.20.1704060851280.81763@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <201704060534.v365YbDl032304@freefriends.org>
Message-ID: <201704060542.v365gHZA000812@freefriends.org>

arnold at skeeve.com wrote:

> > On Wed, 5 Apr 2017, Peter Jeremy wrote:
> > > >And I still bear the scars from the aus.bizarre war...  And I'll bet 
> > > >that not many people remember that little episode :-)
>
> Dave Horsfall <dave at horsfall.org> wrote:
> > > Who is going to take the roll of "Iron Bar"?
> >
> > Oh gawd...  It was a sad day when we lost him; I really missed him.
>
> What's the story here, for us non-Aussies?  I have no clue as to what
> either aus.bizarre was or who "Iron Bar" was.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Arnold

OK, so now I know that Iron Bar was John Mackin, a name that rings
a bell from the distant past.  What was the aus.bizarre story?

THanks,

Arnold


From dave at horsfall.org  Thu Apr  6 16:11:23 2017
From: dave at horsfall.org (Dave Horsfall)
Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2017 16:11:23 +1000 (EST)
Subject: [TUHS] [Uucp] utzoo
In-Reply-To: <201704060542.v365gHZA000812@freefriends.org>
References: <20170330074552.GA32142@minnie.tuhs.org>
 <alpine.BSF.2.20.1703311658390.72701@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <20170405062549.GG39557@server.rulingia.com>
 <alpine.BSF.2.20.1704060851280.81763@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <201704060534.v365YbDl032304@freefriends.org>
 <201704060542.v365gHZA000812@freefriends.org>
Message-ID: <alpine.BSF.2.20.1704061550250.81763@aneurin.horsfall.org>

On Wed, 5 Apr 2017, arnold at skeeve.com wrote:

> OK, so now I know that Iron Bar was John Mackin, a name that rings a 
> bell from the distant past.  What was the aus.bizarre story?

Ah; as I said, I still bear the scars...

Basically, I tried to create aus.bizarre (modelled after alt.bizarre) but 
some did not like it, and promptly removed it.  To cut a long story short, 
it involved a newgroup/rmgroup war, which sadly I lost :-(

It also just about brought ACSnet to its knees, because I automated my 
side of things (I don't know what John did, but it was likely automated 
too).  I guess you had to be there...

After that, though, Iron Bar and I became friends.

-- 
Dave Horsfall DTM (VK2KFU)  "Those who don't understand security will suffer."


From fair-tuhs at netbsd.org  Thu Apr  6 16:57:20 2017
From: fair-tuhs at netbsd.org (Erik E. Fair)
Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2017 23:57:20 -0700
Subject: [TUHS] Unix emacs at Bell Labs and elsewhere
In-Reply-To: <5F2D4901-9FEC-4CF8-9D08-AA4342C1F465@superglobalmegacorp.com>
Message-ID: <10619.1491461840@cesium.clock.org>

Jason,
	There was a Unix-based emacs from the Labs, back in the day: Warren Montgomery's emacs.

	https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/comp.emacs/f7L4OYbJT5U

It was installed on the UCB Cory Hall PDP-11/70 running 2.8 BSD when I gained access (an account) to it in January 1981. I used Montgomery emacs as my transition aid to Unix because TECO-based EMACS was the first screen-oriented editor I had learned to use on the CERAS DECsystem-20/60 running TOPS-20, during a 1978 summer school session at Stanford.

I switched to vi relatively rapidly that winter - it faster, and I disliked having one finger on the "control" key all day long. However, I've never forgotten a series of emacs key bindings, and that's been ... useful in a wide range of circumstances where I've encountered other systems put together by people from that "culture" (e.g. Cisco IOS). I also claim to have made an informed choice of text editor: I use vi and prefer it, despite having learned emacs first.

Perhaps someone else here can speak to how widely Montgomery emacs was used at Bell Labs or elsewhere.

	Erik Fair


From wes.parish at paradise.net.nz  Thu Apr  6 19:40:56 2017
From: wes.parish at paradise.net.nz (Wesley Parish)
Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2017 21:40:56 +1200 (NZST)
Subject: [TUHS] Unix clones
In-Reply-To: <ea552ded-b728-4c14-7909-59b9d3ed8e1b@gmail.com>
References: <1491441504.58e5976086fec@www.paradise.net.nz>
 <ea552ded-b728-4c14-7909-59b9d3ed8e1b@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1491471656.58e60d2874425@www.paradise.net.nz>

Thanks. I'm thinking we could classify the Unix clones under three categories:
the commercial, such as UniFlex, Idris, UNOS
the academic, such as Minix and Tunix
and the hobbyist such as Linux at its beginning

Then it strikes me that that could probably apply to Unix at various stages in
its history:
v1, v2, v3 hobbyist v4?
v5, v6, *BSD academic
SysIII, SysV commercial

FWVLIW

Wesley Parish

Quoting William Pechter <pechter at gmail.com>:

> Wesley Parish wrote:
> > The mention of UNOS a realtime "clone" of Unix in a recent thread
> raises a question for me. How many 
> > Unix clones are there?
<snip>
> > Thanks
> >
> > Wesley Parish
<snip>
> Idris from Whitesmiths once passed through my hands... I actually
> skipped that one for UniPlus SysIII and SysV on the
> Perkin-Elmer 7350 box with a dip packaged 68000...
> 
> I ran Coherent until I got the hardware to go 386-BSD, NetBSD, FreeBSD,
> and Linux 0.99.xx (SLS and later Slackware).
> 
> Before the UniPlus I ran Xenix-86 on an AT&T 6300 with a Nec V30 (not a
> 6300+ 286 box).
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unix-like
> 
> Bill
>  



"I have supposed that he who buys a Method means to learn it." - Ferdinand Sor,
Method for Guitar

"A verbal contract isn't worth the paper it's written on." -- Samuel Goldwyn


From clemc at ccc.com  Fri Apr  7 04:00:48 2017
From: clemc at ccc.com (Clem Cole)
Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2017 14:00:48 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] Unix clones
Message-ID: <CAC20D2MyJ5ipdApzLa8mgKiR7_Kw-ZJ8V2XgfH56EF29KOAT6g@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Apr 5, 2017 at 9:18 PM, Wesley Parish <wes.parish at paradise.net.nz>
wrote:

> The mention of UNOS a realtime "clone" of Unix in a recent thread raises a
> question for me. How many
> Unix clones are there?
>

​An interesting question....   I'll take a shot at this in a second, note
there is a Wikipedia page:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Unix_variants that I don't fully
agree with.

The problem with all of this question is really depends where you place
which boundary on the following continuum:

non-unix                      add-unix ideas               trying to be
unix              might as well be unix                       research unix
stream

eg  VMS                            eg Domain                    eg UNOS
                    eg Sys V, BSD/386 & Linux              Vx & BSD VAX


Different people value different things.  So here is my take from the
"cloned" systems I used/was basically aware....

Idris was a V6 clone for the PDP-11, which I saw 1978ish.   I can say I was
able to recompile code from v6 and it "just worked"  so from a user's
standpoint it might as well has been.   But the compilers and assemblers
were different and I never tried anything "hard"

The first attempt to "clone" v7 that I knew about was in France, and
written in Pascal - I think at Ecole Tech in Paris?  The name of the
project escapes me, but they presented the work in the 1979/80 winter
USENIX (Blackhole) conference in Denver.  There were no proceedings in
those days.  I believe it also ran on the PDP-11, but I never ran it so; so
I have no idea how easy it was to move things from Seventh Edition.   But I
also don't think they were working binary compatibility, so I think it
landed more toward the center.

The Cruds folks (Goldberg) wrote UNOS shortly there after (early 80s)
 It was definitely not UNIX although it tried to have be mostly.   We had
CRDS box at Masscomp and before I arrived they plan had been to use it get
code working before the RTU was running.   But the truth was it failed
because it was not UNIX.   The 68000 vs Vax issues were far, far less of an
issue than UNOS != UNIX.  To Goldberg's credit, he did have a couple of
cool things in it. I believe only system commercial systems that used
Kanodia & Reed's Sequences and Eventcounts, were UNOS, Apollo Doman, and
Stellar's Stellix (I'm not sure about DG - they might have also at one
point).   But these were hidden in the kernel.  Also the driver model he
had was different, so there was no gain writing drivers there.

Mike Malcom & Dave Cheriton at Waterloo developed Thoth (Thoth - Thucks),
which was written in B, IIRC.  Ran on the PDP-11 and was very fast and
light.  It was the first "ukernel" UNIX-like/clone system..  Moving code
from V7 was pretty simple and there was attempt to make it good enough to
make it easy to move things, but it was not trying to be UNIX so it was
somewhere in the middle.

The Tunis folks seem to have been next.   This was more in the left side of
the page than the right.   I think they did make run on the PDP-11, but I'm
not so sure how easy it was to move code.   If you used their concurrent
Pascal, I suspect that code moved.  But I'm not sure how easy it was to
move a raw K&R "White Book" C code.

CMU's Accent (which was redo of Rochester's RIG) came around the same time.
  Like Tunis the system language was an extended Pascal and in fact the
target was the triple drip Perq (aka the Pascalto).   The C compiler for it
was late, and moving code was difficult, the UNIX influence was clear.

Apollo's Aegis/Domain really came next - about 82/83 ish.   Like Accent it
was written in hacked up Pascal and the command were in Ratfor/Fortran
(from the SW Tool User's Group).    C showed up reasonably early, but the
focus did not start trying to be UNIX.  In fact, they were very
successfully and were getting ISV's to abandon VMS for them at a very good
clip.   UNIX clearly influenced the system, but it was not trying to be
UNIX, although moving code from BSD or V7 could be done fairly easily.

Tannebaum then did MINIX.   Other than 8086 vs PDP-11-ism, it was a pretty
darned good clone.    You could recompile and most things pretty much "just
worked."   He did not support ptrace and few other calls, but as a basic V7
system running on a pure PDP PC, it was remarkably clean.  It also had a
large number of languages and it was a great teaching system - which is
what Andy created it be.    A problem was that UNIX had moved on by the
time Andy released it.   So BSD & V8 were now pretty much the definition of
"UNIX" - large address spaces were needed.  As were the BSD tools
extensions, such as vi, csh.   Also UUCP was now very much in the thing,
and while it was a pure v7 clone, it was the lack of "tools" that made it
not a good system to "use" and it's deficiencies out weighed the value.
Plus as discussed elsewhere, BSD/386 would appear.

Steve Ward's crew at MIT created TRIX, which was a UNIX-like, although
instead of everything being a file, everything was a process.  This was
supposed to be the system that rms was originally going to use for GNU, but
I never knew what happened.   Noel might.  I thought it was a cool system,
although it was a mono-kernel and around this time, most of the OS research
had gone ukernel happy.

Coherent was announcement and its provenance is questioned, although as
discussed was eventually released from the AT&T official inquiry and you
can look it your self.   It was clearly a V7 clone for the PC and was more
complete than Minix.  I also think they supported the 386 fairly quickly,
which may have made it more interesting from a commercial standpoint.  It
also had more of the BSD tools available than Minix did when it was first
released.

CMU rewrites Accent to create Mach, but this time splices the BSD kernel
inside of it so that the 4.1BSD binaries "just work."   So it's bit UNIX
and a new system all in one.  So which is it?   This system would begat
OSF/1 and eventually become Apple's Mac OS?   I think its UNIX, but one can
claim its not either....

By this point in time the explosion occurs.   You have Lion's book, Andy's
and Maury Bach's book on the street. he genie is clearly out of the bottle,
and there is a ton of code out there and the DNS is getting all mixed up.
Doug Comer does Xinu, Sheraton does V-kernel, Thoth is rewritten to become
QNX, and  a host of others I have not repeated.  BSD's CSRG group would
break up, BSDi would be created and their 386 code come out.   It was
clearly "might as well be" if it was not.  Soon, Linus would start with
Minix and the rest is history on the generic line.

Clem
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From clemc at ccc.com  Fri Apr  7 04:02:59 2017
From: clemc at ccc.com (Clem Cole)
Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2017 14:02:59 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] Unix clones
In-Reply-To: <CAC20D2MyJ5ipdApzLa8mgKiR7_Kw-ZJ8V2XgfH56EF29KOAT6g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAC20D2MyJ5ipdApzLa8mgKiR7_Kw-ZJ8V2XgfH56EF29KOAT6g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAC20D2NSjoULQiLdK2Q-_dctUp2W0S-XH6L=3f0WP2s-XdywjA@mail.gmail.com>

​try-II sorry about that...​


On Wed, Apr 5, 2017 at 9:18 PM, Wesley Parish <wes.parish at paradise.net.nz>
 wrote:

> The mention of UNOS a realtime "clone" of Unix in a recent thread raises a
> question for me. How many
> Unix clones are there?
>

​An interesting question....   I'll take a shot at this in a second, note
there is a Wikipedia page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/
Category:Unix_variants that I don't fully agree with.

The problem with all of this question is really depends where you place
which boundary on the following continuum:

non-unix                      add-unix ideas               trying to be
unix              might as well be unix                       research unix
stream

eg  VMS                            eg Domain                    eg UNOS
                    eg Sys V, BSD/386 & Linux              Vx & BSD VAX


Different people value different things.  So here is my take from the
"cloned" systems I used/was basically aware....

Idris was a V6 clone for the PDP-11, which I saw 1978ish.   I can say I was
able to recompile code from v6 and it "just worked"  so from a user's
standpoint it might as well has been.   But the compilers and assemblers
were different and I never tried anything "hard"

The first attempt to "clone" v7 that I knew about was in France, and
written in Pascal - I think at Ecole Tech in Paris?  The name of the
project escapes me, but they presented the work in the 1979/80 winter
USENIX (Blackhole) conference in Denver.  There were no proceedings in
those days.  I believe it also ran on the PDP-11, but I never ran it so; so
I have no idea how easy it was to move things from Seventh Edition.   But I
also don't think they were working binary compatibility, so I think it
landed more toward the center.

The Cruds folks (Goldberg) wrote UNOS shortly there after (early 80s)
 It was definitely not UNIX although it tried to have be mostly.   We had
CRDS box at Masscomp and before I arrived they plan had been to use it get
code working before the RTU was running.   But the truth was it failed
because it was not UNIX.   The 68000 vs Vax issues were far, far less of an
issue than UNOS != UNIX.  To Goldberg's credit, he did have a couple of
cool things in it. I believe only system commercial systems that used
Kanodia & Reed's Sequences and Eventcounts, were UNOS, Apollo Doman, and
Stellar's Stellix (I'm not sure about DG - they might have also at one
point).   But these were hidden in the kernel.  Also the driver model he
had was different, so there was no gain writing drivers there.

Mike Malcom & Dave Cheriton at Waterloo developed Thoth (Thoth - Thucks),
which was written in B, IIRC.  Ran on the PDP-11 and was very fast and
light.  It was the first "ukernel" UNIX-like/clone system..  Moving code
from V7 was pretty simple and there was attempt to make it good enough to
make it easy to move things, but it was not trying to be UNIX so it was
somewhere in the middle.

The Tunis folks seem to have been next.   This was more in the left side of
the page than the right.   I think they did make run on the PDP-11, but I'm
not so sure how easy it was to move code.   If you used their concurrent
Pascal, I suspect that code moved.  But I'm not sure how easy it was to
move a raw K&R "White Book" C code.

CMU's Accent (which was redo of Rochester's RIG) came around the same time.
  Like Tunis the system language was an extended Pascal and in fact the
target was the triple drip Perq (aka the Pascalto).   The C compiler for it
was late, and moving code was difficult, the UNIX influence was clear.

Apollo's Aegis/Domain really came next - about 82/83 ish.   Like Accent it
was written in hacked up Pascal and the command were in Ratfor/Fortran
(from the SW Tool User's Group).    C showed up reasonably early, but the
focus did not start trying to be UNIX.  In fact, they were very
successfully and were getting ISV's to abandon VMS for them at a very good
clip.   UNIX clearly influenced the system, but it was not trying to be
UNIX, although moving code from BSD or V7 could be done fairly easily.

Tannebaum then did MINIX.   Other than 8086 vs PDP-11-ism, it was a pretty
darned good clone.    You could recompile and most things pretty much "just
worked."   He did not support ptrace and few other calls, but as a basic V7
system running on a pure PDP PC, it was remarkably clean.  It also had a
large number of languages and it was a great teaching system - which is
what Andy created it be.    A problem was that UNIX had moved on by the
time Andy released it.   So BSD & V8 were now pretty much the definition of
"UNIX" - large address spaces were needed.  As were the BSD tools
extensions, such as vi, csh.   Also UUCP was now very much in the thing,
and while it was a pure v7 clone, it was the lack of "tools" that made it
not a good system to "use" and it's deficiencies out weighed the value.
Plus as discussed elsewhere, BSD/386 would appear.

Steve Ward's crew at MIT created TRIX, which was a UNIX-like, although
instead of everything being a file, everything was a process.  This was
supposed to be the system that rms was originally going to use for GNU, but
I never knew what happened.   Noel might.  I thought it was a cool system,
although it was a mono-kernel and around this time, most of the OS research
had gone ukernel happy.

Coherent was announcement and its provenance is questioned, although as
discussed was eventually released from the AT&T official inquiry and you
can look it your self.   It was clearly a V7 clone for the PC and was more
complete than Minix.  I also think they supported the 386 fairly quickly,
which may have made it more interesting from a commercial standpoint.  It
also had more of the BSD tools available than Minix did when it was first
released.

CMU rewrites Accent to create Mach, but this time splices the BSD kernel
inside of it so that the 4.1BSD binaries "just work."   So it's bit UNIX
and a new system all in one.  So which is it?   This system would begat
OSF/1 and eventually become Apple's Mac OS?   I think its UNIX, but one can
claim its not either....

By this point in time the explosion occurs.   You have Lion's book, Andy's
and Maury Bach's book on the street. he genie is clearly out of the bottle,
and there is a ton of code out there and the DNS is getting all mixed up.
Doug Comer does Xinu, Sheraton does V-kernel, Thoth is rewritten to become
QNX, and  a host of others I have not repeated.  BSD's CSRG group would
break up, BSDi would be created and their 386 code come out.   It was
clearly "might as well be" if it was not.  Soon, Linus would start with
Minix and the rest is history on the generic line.

Clem
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From clemc at ccc.com  Fri Apr  7 04:09:54 2017
From: clemc at ccc.com (Clem Cole)
Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2017 14:09:54 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] Unix clones
In-Reply-To: <CAC20D2NSjoULQiLdK2Q-_dctUp2W0S-XH6L=3f0WP2s-XdywjA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAC20D2MyJ5ipdApzLa8mgKiR7_Kw-ZJ8V2XgfH56EF29KOAT6g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAC20D2NSjoULQiLdK2Q-_dctUp2W0S-XH6L=3f0WP2s-XdywjA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAC20D2MAXM=bsfZDqgcx_=W3ez=VsoiA-dqWyY3LyW9Ho8O5zA@mail.gmail.com>

s/DNS/DNA/    - dyslexia sucks....

On Thu, Apr 6, 2017 at 2:02 PM, Clem Cole <clemc at ccc.com> wrote:

> ​try-II sorry about that...​
>
>
> On Wed, Apr 5, 2017 at 9:18 PM, Wesley Parish <wes.parish at paradise.net.nz>
>  wrote:
>
>> The mention of UNOS a realtime "clone" of Unix in a recent thread raises
>> a question for me. How many
>> Unix clones are there?
>>
>
> ​An interesting question....   I'll take a shot at this in a second, note
> there is a Wikipedia page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Unix_
> variants that I don't fully agree with.
>
> The problem with all of this question is really depends where you place
> which boundary on the following continuum:
>
> non-unix                      add-unix ideas               trying to be
> unix              might as well be unix                       research unix
> stream
>
> eg  VMS                            eg Domain                    eg UNOS
>                       eg Sys V, BSD/386 & Linux              Vx & BSD VAX
>
>
> Different people value different things.  So here is my take from the
> "cloned" systems I used/was basically aware....
>
> Idris was a V6 clone for the PDP-11, which I saw 1978ish.   I can say I
> was able to recompile code from v6 and it "just worked"  so from a user's
> standpoint it might as well has been.   But the compilers and assemblers
> were different and I never tried anything "hard"
>
> The first attempt to "clone" v7 that I knew about was in France, and
> written in Pascal - I think at Ecole Tech in Paris?  The name of the
> project escapes me, but they presented the work in the 1979/80 winter
> USENIX (Blackhole) conference in Denver.  There were no proceedings in
> those days.  I believe it also ran on the PDP-11, but I never ran it so; so
> I have no idea how easy it was to move things from Seventh Edition.   But I
> also don't think they were working binary compatibility, so I think it
> landed more toward the center.
>
> The Cruds folks (Goldberg) wrote UNOS shortly there after (early 80s)
>  It was definitely not UNIX although it tried to have be mostly.   We had
> CRDS box at Masscomp and before I arrived they plan had been to use it get
> code working before the RTU was running.   But the truth was it failed
> because it was not UNIX.   The 68000 vs Vax issues were far, far less of an
> issue than UNOS != UNIX.  To Goldberg's credit, he did have a couple of
> cool things in it. I believe only system commercial systems that used
> Kanodia & Reed's Sequences and Eventcounts, were UNOS, Apollo Doman, and
> Stellar's Stellix (I'm not sure about DG - they might have also at one
> point).   But these were hidden in the kernel.  Also the driver model he
> had was different, so there was no gain writing drivers there.
>
> Mike Malcom & Dave Cheriton at Waterloo developed Thoth (Thoth - Thucks),
> which was written in B, IIRC.  Ran on the PDP-11 and was very fast and
> light.  It was the first "ukernel" UNIX-like/clone system..  Moving code
> from V7 was pretty simple and there was attempt to make it good enough to
> make it easy to move things, but it was not trying to be UNIX so it was
> somewhere in the middle.
>
> The Tunis folks seem to have been next.   This was more in the left side
> of the page than the right.   I think they did make run on the PDP-11, but
> I'm not so sure how easy it was to move code.   If you used their
> concurrent Pascal, I suspect that code moved.  But I'm not sure how easy it
> was to move a raw K&R "White Book" C code.
>
> CMU's Accent (which was redo of Rochester's RIG) came around the same
> time.   Like Tunis the system language was an extended Pascal and in fact
> the target was the triple drip Perq (aka the Pascalto).   The C compiler
> for it was late, and moving code was difficult, the UNIX influence was
> clear.
>
> Apollo's Aegis/Domain really came next - about 82/83 ish.   Like Accent it
> was written in hacked up Pascal and the command were in Ratfor/Fortran
> (from the SW Tool User's Group).    C showed up reasonably early, but the
> focus did not start trying to be UNIX.  In fact, they were very
> successfully and were getting ISV's to abandon VMS for them at a very good
> clip.   UNIX clearly influenced the system, but it was not trying to be
> UNIX, although moving code from BSD or V7 could be done fairly easily.
>
> Tannebaum then did MINIX.   Other than 8086 vs PDP-11-ism, it was a pretty
> darned good clone.    You could recompile and most things pretty much "just
> worked."   He did not support ptrace and few other calls, but as a basic V7
> system running on a pure PDP PC, it was remarkably clean.  It also had a
> large number of languages and it was a great teaching system - which is
> what Andy created it be.    A problem was that UNIX had moved on by the
> time Andy released it.   So BSD & V8 were now pretty much the definition of
> "UNIX" - large address spaces were needed.  As were the BSD tools
> extensions, such as vi, csh.   Also UUCP was now very much in the thing,
> and while it was a pure v7 clone, it was the lack of "tools" that made it
> not a good system to "use" and it's deficiencies out weighed the value.
> Plus as discussed elsewhere, BSD/386 would appear.
>
> Steve Ward's crew at MIT created TRIX, which was a UNIX-like, although
> instead of everything being a file, everything was a process.  This was
> supposed to be the system that rms was originally going to use for GNU, but
> I never knew what happened.   Noel might.  I thought it was a cool system,
> although it was a mono-kernel and around this time, most of the OS research
> had gone ukernel happy.
>
> Coherent was announcement and its provenance is questioned, although as
> discussed was eventually released from the AT&T official inquiry and you
> can look it your self.   It was clearly a V7 clone for the PC and was more
> complete than Minix.  I also think they supported the 386 fairly quickly,
> which may have made it more interesting from a commercial standpoint.  It
> also had more of the BSD tools available than Minix did when it was first
> released.
>
> CMU rewrites Accent to create Mach, but this time splices the BSD kernel
> inside of it so that the 4.1BSD binaries "just work."   So it's bit UNIX
> and a new system all in one.  So which is it?   This system would begat
> OSF/1 and eventually become Apple's Mac OS?   I think its UNIX, but one can
> claim its not either....
>
> By this point in time the explosion occurs.   You have Lion's book, Andy's
> and Maury Bach's book on the street. he genie is clearly out of the bottle,
> and there is a ton of code out there and the DNS is getting all mixed up.
> Doug Comer does Xinu, Sheraton does V-kernel, Thoth is rewritten to become
> QNX, and  a host of others I have not repeated.  BSD's CSRG group would
> break up, BSDi would be created and their 386 code come out.   It was
> clearly "might as well be" if it was not.  Soon, Linus would start with
> Minix and the rest is history on the generic line.
>
> Clem
>
>
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From pepe at naleco.com  Fri Apr  7 06:08:41 2017
From: pepe at naleco.com (Josh Good)
Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2017 22:08:41 +0200
Subject: [TUHS] A decision
In-Reply-To: <20170405222255.GA4109@minnie.tuhs.org>
References: <20170405222255.GA4109@minnie.tuhs.org>
Message-ID: <20170406200839.GA30805@naleco.com>

On 2017 Apr  6, 08:22, Warren Toomey wrote:
> All, in the 25 years of running this list, generally things have gone
> well and I've not had to make many unilateral decisions. But today I
> have chosen to unsubscribe Joerg Schilling from the list.
> 
> I'm sending this e-mail in so that there is a level of transparency here.
> I've sent Joerg an e-mail outlining my reasons.
> 
> Cheers, Warren

A decision is a decision, and I don't pretend that you revert it.

However, Joerg Schilling, notwithstanding his (lack of?) social
abilities and confrontational style of writing, has provided valuable
historical information, and has a non-dismissable background. It is
also worrying that this is making TUHS even more USA-centric, and that
his european point of view (however removed from "on-the-ground" MIT-
or Berkely-epicenters first hand info) is being silenced.

In my opinion, the TUHS list has been a very enjoyable read in recent
times, and those who found Joerg unpalatable had already "kill-filed" him.

Peace,

-- 
Josh Good



From khm at sciops.net  Fri Apr  7 06:32:29 2017
From: khm at sciops.net (Kurt H Maier)
Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2017 13:32:29 -0700
Subject: [TUHS] A decision
In-Reply-To: <20170406200839.GA30805@naleco.com>
References: <20170405222255.GA4109@minnie.tuhs.org>
 <20170406200839.GA30805@naleco.com>
Message-ID: <20170406203229.GA86947@wopr>

On Thu, Apr 06, 2017 at 10:08:41PM +0200, Josh Good wrote:
>
> However, Joerg Schilling, notwithstanding his (lack of?) social
> abilities and confrontational style of writing, has provided valuable
> historical information, and has a non-dismissable background. 
       
I disagree with both of these assertions; I was weary of the repeated
personal attacks and misinformation, and I am grateful that Warren is
preserving the focus of TUHS.
       
khm


From aram.h at mgk.ro  Fri Apr  7 07:23:09 2017
From: aram.h at mgk.ro (=?UTF-8?B?QXJhbSBIxIN2xINybmVhbnU=?=)
Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2017 23:23:09 +0200
Subject: [TUHS] A decision
In-Reply-To: <20170406203229.GA86947@wopr>
References: <20170405222255.GA4109@minnie.tuhs.org>
 <20170406200839.GA30805@naleco.com> <20170406203229.GA86947@wopr>
Message-ID: <CAEAzY3_nr91LoC6fW9qTEudPUZtGHa0EwQfgkXgvS5P5njB6kQ@mail.gmail.com>

> I disagree with both of these assertions; I was weary of the repeated
> personal attacks and misinformation, and I am grateful that Warren is
> preserving the focus of TUHS.

I agree.

Thanks Warren for your continued efforts of keeping the flame alive!

-- 
Aram Hăvărneanu


From pepe at naleco.com  Fri Apr  7 07:46:20 2017
From: pepe at naleco.com (Josh Good)
Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2017 23:46:20 +0200
Subject: [TUHS] A decision
In-Reply-To: <CAEAzY3_nr91LoC6fW9qTEudPUZtGHa0EwQfgkXgvS5P5njB6kQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20170405222255.GA4109@minnie.tuhs.org>
 <20170406200839.GA30805@naleco.com> <20170406203229.GA86947@wopr>
 <CAEAzY3_nr91LoC6fW9qTEudPUZtGHa0EwQfgkXgvS5P5njB6kQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20170406214620.GD30805@naleco.com>

On 2017 Apr  6, 23:23, Aram H??v??rneanu wrote:
> > I disagree with both of these assertions; I was weary of the repeated
> > personal attacks and misinformation, and I am grateful that Warren is
> > preserving the focus of TUHS.
> 
> I agree.
> 
> Thanks Warren for your continued efforts of keeping the flame alive!

I am grateful to Warren too, for a mailing list needs to be curated,
and he is putting a lot of valuable time and wise effort into that job!

However, I chimed in just to note that the decision, however legitimate
and based on the list owner's best criterion, is not an "unanimous
feeling".

I hope I can be in disagreement while respecting Warren's decision.

-- 
Josh Good



From wkt at tuhs.org  Fri Apr  7 09:09:10 2017
From: wkt at tuhs.org (Warren Toomey)
Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2017 09:09:10 +1000
Subject: [TUHS] Non-US Unix Activities
In-Reply-To: <20170406200839.GA30805@naleco.com>
References: <20170405222255.GA4109@minnie.tuhs.org>
 <20170406200839.GA30805@naleco.com>
Message-ID: <20170406230910.GB30625@minnie.tuhs.org>

On Thu, Apr 06, 2017 at 10:08:41PM +0200, Josh Good wrote:
> It is also worrying that this is making TUHS even more USA-centric, and that
> his european point of view (however removed from "on-the-ground" MIT-
> or Berkely-epicenters first hand info) is being silenced.

That's a good point Josh. I've been trying to find copies of UKUUG and
EUUG newsletters to add to the archive, along with the AUUG newsletters.

So if you're on this list and outside of the US, now is the time to
speak up with anecotes etc. Oh, and if you have anything worth adding
to the Unix Archive, please let me know!

Cheers, Warren


From wes.parish at paradise.net.nz  Fri Apr  7 11:12:21 2017
From: wes.parish at paradise.net.nz (Wesley Parish)
Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2017 13:12:21 +1200 (NZST)
Subject: [TUHS] Unix clones
In-Reply-To: <CAC20D2MAXM=bsfZDqgcx_=W3ez=VsoiA-dqWyY3LyW9Ho8O5zA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAC20D2MyJ5ipdApzLa8mgKiR7_Kw-ZJ8V2XgfH56EF29KOAT6g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAC20D2NSjoULQiLdK2Q-_dctUp2W0S-XH6L=3f0WP2s-XdywjA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAC20D2MAXM=bsfZDqgcx_=W3ez=VsoiA-dqWyY3LyW9Ho8O5zA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1491527541.58e6e7750449e@www.paradise.net.nz>

's/DNS/DNA/' - Not a problem. Thanks!

I'd come across Thoth mentioned in an OS book at the U of Canterbury (NZ) Science Library; they also 
had a copy of the Tunis book. But I never took the time to read them.

Getting them put into a time frame is useful - it gives an external perspective to Salus' book, eg, this is 
what some non-Unix folk thought of Unix at the time.

Wesley Parish

Quoting Clem Cole <clemc at ccc.com>:

> s/DNS/DNA/ - dyslexia sucks....
> 
> On Thu, Apr 6, 2017 at 2:02 PM, Clem Cole <clemc at ccc.com> wrote:
> 
> > ​try-II sorry about that...​
> >
> >
> > On Wed, Apr 5, 2017 at 9:18 PM, Wesley Parish
> <wes.parish at paradise.net.nz>
> > wrote:
> >
> >> The mention of UNOS a realtime "clone" of Unix in a recent thread
> raises
> >> a question for me. How many
> >> Unix clones are there?
> >>
> >
> > ​An interesting question.... I'll take a shot at this in a second,
> note
> > there is a Wikipedia page:
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Unix_
> > variants that I don't fully agree with.
> >
> > The problem with all of this question is really depends where you
> place
> > which boundary on the following continuum:
> >
> > non-unix add-unix ideas trying to be
> > unix might as well be unix research unix
> > stream
> >
> > eg VMS eg Domain eg UNOS
> > eg Sys V, BSD/386 & Linux Vx & BSD VAX
> >
> >
> > Different people value different things. So here is my take from the
> > "cloned" systems I used/was basically aware....
> >
> > Idris was a V6 clone for the PDP-11, which I saw 1978ish. I can say I
> > was able to recompile code from v6 and it "just worked" so from a
> user's
> > standpoint it might as well has been. But the compilers and
> assemblers
> > were different and I never tried anything "hard"
> >
> > The first attempt to "clone" v7 that I knew about was in France, and
> > written in Pascal - I think at Ecole Tech in Paris? The name of the
> > project escapes me, but they presented the work in the 1979/80 winter
> > USENIX (Blackhole) conference in Denver. There were no proceedings in
> > those days. I believe it also ran on the PDP-11, but I never ran it
> so; so
> > I have no idea how easy it was to move things from Seventh Edition.
> But I
> > also don't think they were working binary compatibility, so I think
> it
> > landed more toward the center.
> >
> > The Cruds folks (Goldberg) wrote UNOS shortly there after (early 80s)
> > It was definitely not UNIX although it tried to have be mostly. We
> had
> > CRDS box at Masscomp and before I arrived they plan had been to use it
> get
> > code working before the RTU was running. But the truth was it failed
> > because it was not UNIX. The 68000 vs Vax issues were far, far less of
> an
> > issue than UNOS != UNIX. To Goldberg's credit, he did have a couple
> of
> > cool things in it. I believe only system commercial systems that used
> > Kanodia & Reed's Sequences and Eventcounts, were UNOS, Apollo Doman,
> and
> > Stellar's Stellix (I'm not sure about DG - they might have also at
> one
> > point). But these were hidden in the kernel. Also the driver model he
> > had was different, so there was no gain writing drivers there.
> >
> > Mike Malcom & Dave Cheriton at Waterloo developed Thoth (Thoth -
> Thucks),
> > which was written in B, IIRC. Ran on the PDP-11 and was very fast and
> > light. It was the first "ukernel" UNIX-like/clone system.. Moving
> code
> > from V7 was pretty simple and there was attempt to make it good enough
> to
> > make it easy to move things, but it was not trying to be UNIX so it
> was
> > somewhere in the middle.
> >
> > The Tunis folks seem to have been next. This was more in the left
> side
> > of the page than the right. I think they did make run on the PDP-11,
> but
> > I'm not so sure how easy it was to move code. If you used their
> > concurrent Pascal, I suspect that code moved. But I'm not sure how
> easy it
> > was to move a raw K&R "White Book" C code.
> >
> > CMU's Accent (which was redo of Rochester's RIG) came around the same
> > time. Like Tunis the system language was an extended Pascal and in
> fact
> > the target was the triple drip Perq (aka the Pascalto). The C
> compiler
> > for it was late, and moving code was difficult, the UNIX influence
> was
> > clear.
> >
> > Apollo's Aegis/Domain really came next - about 82/83 ish. Like Accent
> it
> > was written in hacked up Pascal and the command were in
> Ratfor/Fortran
> > (from the SW Tool User's Group). C showed up reasonably early, but
> the
> > focus did not start trying to be UNIX. In fact, they were very
> > successfully and were getting ISV's to abandon VMS for them at a very
> good
> > clip. UNIX clearly influenced the system, but it was not trying to be
> > UNIX, although moving code from BSD or V7 could be done fairly
> easily.
> >
> > Tannebaum then did MINIX. Other than 8086 vs PDP-11-ism, it was a
> pretty
> > darned good clone. You could recompile and most things pretty much
> "just
> > worked." He did not support ptrace and few other calls, but as a basic
> V7
> > system running on a pure PDP PC, it was remarkably clean. It also had
> a
> > large number of languages and it was a great teaching system - which
> is
> > what Andy created it be. A problem was that UNIX had moved on by the
> > time Andy released it. So BSD & V8 were now pretty much the definition
> of
> > "UNIX" - large address spaces were needed. As were the BSD tools
> > extensions, such as vi, csh. Also UUCP was now very much in the
> thing,
> > and while it was a pure v7 clone, it was the lack of "tools" that made
> it
> > not a good system to "use" and it's deficiencies out weighed the
> value.
> > Plus as discussed elsewhere, BSD/386 would appear.
> >
> > Steve Ward's crew at MIT created TRIX, which was a UNIX-like,
> although
> > instead of everything being a file, everything was a process. This
> was
> > supposed to be the system that rms was originally going to use for
> GNU, but
> > I never knew what happened. Noel might. I thought it was a cool
> system,
> > although it was a mono-kernel and around this time, most of the OS
> research
> > had gone ukernel happy.
> >
> > Coherent was announcement and its provenance is questioned, although
> as
> > discussed was eventually released from the AT&T official inquiry and
> you
> > can look it your self. It was clearly a V7 clone for the PC and was
> more
> > complete than Minix. I also think they supported the 386 fairly
> quickly,
> > which may have made it more interesting from a commercial standpoint.
> It
> > also had more of the BSD tools available than Minix did when it was
> first
> > released.
> >
> > CMU rewrites Accent to create Mach, but this time splices the BSD
> kernel
> > inside of it so that the 4.1BSD binaries "just work." So it's bit
> UNIX
> > and a new system all in one. So which is it? This system would begat
> > OSF/1 and eventually become Apple's Mac OS? I think its UNIX, but one
> can
> > claim its not either....
> >
> > By this point in time the explosion occurs. You have Lion's book,
> Andy's
> > and Maury Bach's book on the street. he genie is clearly out of the
> bottle,
> > and there is a ton of code out there and the DNS is getting all mixed
> up.
> > Doug Comer does Xinu, Sheraton does V-kernel, Thoth is rewritten to
> become
> > QNX, and a host of others I have not repeated. BSD's CSRG group would
> > break up, BSDi would be created and their 386 code come out. It was
> > clearly "might as well be" if it was not. Soon, Linus would start
> with
> > Minix and the rest is history on the generic line.
> >
> > Clem
> >
> >
>  



"I have supposed that he who buys a Method means to learn it." - Ferdinand Sor,
Method for Guitar

"A verbal contract isn't worth the paper it's written on." -- Samuel Goldwyn


From dave at horsfall.org  Fri Apr  7 14:48:04 2017
From: dave at horsfall.org (Dave Horsfall)
Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2017 14:48:04 +1000 (EST)
Subject: [TUHS] Happy birthday, Internet!
Message-ID: <alpine.BSF.2.20.1704071441560.24640@aneurin.horsfall.org>

The Internet (spelled with a capital "I", please, as it is a proper noun) 
was born in 1969, when RFC-1 got published; it described the IMP and 
ARPAnet.

As I said at a club lecture once, there are many internets, but only one 
Internet.

-- 
Dave Horsfall DTM (VK2KFU)  "Those who don't understand security will suffer."


From wkt at tuhs.org  Fri Apr  7 14:58:03 2017
From: wkt at tuhs.org (Warren Toomey)
Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2017 14:58:03 +1000
Subject: [TUHS] Happy birthday, Internet!
In-Reply-To: <alpine.BSF.2.20.1704071441560.24640@aneurin.horsfall.org>
References: <alpine.BSF.2.20.1704071441560.24640@aneurin.horsfall.org>
Message-ID: <20170407045803.GA17495@minnie.tuhs.org>

On Fri, Apr 07, 2017 at 02:48:04PM +1000, Dave Horsfall wrote:
> The Internet (spelled with a capital "I", please, as it is a proper noun) 
> was born in 1969, when RFC-1 got published; it described the IMP and 
> ARPAnet.

https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc1 7 April 1969
	Warren


From lars at nocrew.org  Fri Apr  7 15:13:36 2017
From: lars at nocrew.org (Lars Brinkhoff)
Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2017 07:13:36 +0200
Subject: [TUHS] Happy birthday, Internet!
In-Reply-To: <alpine.BSF.2.20.1704071441560.24640@aneurin.horsfall.org> (Dave
 Horsfall's message of "Fri, 7 Apr 2017 14:48:04 +1000 (EST)")
References: <alpine.BSF.2.20.1704071441560.24640@aneurin.horsfall.org>
Message-ID: <86tw604x6n.fsf@molnjunk.nocrew.org>

Dave Horsfall <dave at horsfall.org> writes:
> The Internet (spelled with a capital "I", please, as it is a proper
> noun) was born in 1969, when RFC-1 got published; it described the IMP
> and ARPAnet.

Actual data transmissions were first made on October 29 later that year.
If my two-minute research checks out.


From dave at horsfall.org  Fri Apr  7 15:15:42 2017
From: dave at horsfall.org (Dave Horsfall)
Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2017 15:15:42 +1000 (EST)
Subject: [TUHS] Non-US Unix Activities
In-Reply-To: <20170406230910.GB30625@minnie.tuhs.org>
References: <20170405222255.GA4109@minnie.tuhs.org>
 <20170406200839.GA30805@naleco.com> <20170406230910.GB30625@minnie.tuhs.org>
Message-ID: <alpine.BSF.2.20.1704071514080.24640@aneurin.horsfall.org>

On Fri, 7 Apr 2017, Warren Toomey wrote:

> So if you're on this list and outside of the US, now is the time to 
> speak up with anecotes etc. Oh, and if you have anything worth adding to 
> the Unix Archive, please let me know!

The problem is that some of them are still alive :-)

-- 
Dave Horsfall DTM (VK2KFU)  "Those who don't understand security will suffer."


From grog at lemis.com  Fri Apr  7 16:57:25 2017
From: grog at lemis.com (Greg 'groggy' Lehey)
Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2017 16:57:25 +1000
Subject: [TUHS] Happy birthday, Internet!
In-Reply-To: <86tw604x6n.fsf@molnjunk.nocrew.org>
References: <alpine.BSF.2.20.1704071441560.24640@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <86tw604x6n.fsf@molnjunk.nocrew.org>
Message-ID: <20170407065725.GG34113@eureka.lemis.com>

On Friday,  7 April 2017 at  7:13:36 +0200, Lars Brinkhoff wrote:
> Dave Horsfall <dave at horsfall.org> writes:
>> The Internet (spelled with a capital "I", please, as it is a proper
>> noun) was born in 1969, when RFC-1 got published; it described the IMP
>> and ARPAnet.
>
> Actual data transmissions were first made on October 29 later that year.
> If my two-minute research checks out.

Yes, this was my date, too, though I call it 30 October (UTC).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Internet#ARPANET

Greg
--
Sent from my desktop computer.
Finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key.
See complete headers for address and phone numbers.
This message is digitally signed.  If your Microsoft mail program
reports problems, please read http://lemis.com/broken-MUA
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From alec.muffett at gmail.com  Fri Apr  7 18:44:32 2017
From: alec.muffett at gmail.com (Alec Muffett)
Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2017 09:44:32 +0100
Subject: [TUHS] Non-US Unix Activities
In-Reply-To: <20170406230910.GB30625@minnie.tuhs.org>
References: <20170405222255.GA4109@minnie.tuhs.org>
 <20170406200839.GA30805@naleco.com>
 <20170406230910.GB30625@minnie.tuhs.org>
Message-ID: <CAFWeb9LVFEcDGP-WWZ5jGMkbRFUPe4Wu69=nqt6S-GzoXUMQfw@mail.gmail.com>

On 7 April 2017 at 00:09, Warren Toomey <wkt at tuhs.org> wrote:

> So if you're on this list and outside of the US, now is the time to
> speak up with anecotes etc. Oh, and if you have anything worth adding
> to the Unix Archive, please let me know!
>

So: you're looking for European geeks?  I think I know where to find some...

Hello, my name is Alec, and I have been a Unix addict for around 30 years
now. :-)

I'm based in the UK, specifically near Farnborough; formerly University of
Aberystwyth (3yr), then Sun Microsystems (17yr), various, then Facebook
(3yr).

First encounter with Unix: as an undergrad in 1987 using 4.2BSD on the Sun
3/50 and 3/160, and first job was porting them to "SunOS".

Story to add to the collective zeitgeist? I have all the versions of Crack
- because I wrote it - but it also led to an interesting tale, told at
length in a video*, but which I can recap as "I was appointed
'cryptographic moderator' of comp.sources.misc because Kent Landfield, the
actual moderator, was dragged into a USG attempt to prosecute Phil
Zimmerman for publishing PGP, and US-based moderation of crypto publication
became an issue."

If I have anything to contribute it's likely paper-based or war-stories;
I'm pretty sure I have old MACRO-11 manuals, and maybe a few copies of the
old unix programmer docs, but there was too much to keep the whole thing.
If anyone is interested in multi-user games, I have the original source of
AberMUD, printed on fanfold, implemented in B for GCOS3 on a Honeywell L-66
(a machine which was literally advertised as being able to withstand
grenade detonations within N feet)

Unixes I have hacked on:

4.1-4.3 BSD on Vaxes and Suns

Gould UTX/32 on a "NP-1" - a bizarre machine which used 2 Coherent PCs, one
as a sort of bootloader (?) and the other as a master console which was so
deeply integrated into the system that simply pressing "Return" on the
console was enough to time-out all X.25 Ethernet sessions on the machine

Dynix/PTX on a Sequent; odd, but fun.

MIPS/Ultrix on DEC 5820, later 5830 when the performance was underwhelming;
then we found that the DECStation5000/200 which served as an ops-console
was at least as performant as the servers, and we put _that_ into
user-service, too.; various DESstations

Mostly every SunOS/Solaris from 1987-2009

$modern_stuff.  Loving having a farm of Raspberry Pi at home.  One of them
is now labelled "vaxa" and running an 11/780 SIMH with 4.2BSD on it, though
I would love to upgrade that to Tahoe/Reno and get it talking to the net
via NAT.  I've found the source of the DEC ethernet driver and am racking
my brains trying to remember how to rebuild the kernel...

    - alec

* video: https://video.adm.ntnu.no/pres/5494065ba6b9f

-- 
http://dropsafe.crypticide.com/aboutalecm
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From wkt at tuhs.org  Fri Apr  7 19:21:38 2017
From: wkt at tuhs.org (Warren Toomey)
Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2017 19:21:38 +1000
Subject: [TUHS] Anybody with V7M experience?
Message-ID: <20170407092138.GA1909@minnie.tuhs.org>

All, I'm trying to build a split I/D kernel for V7M. I've installed
the system following my notes at
http://www.tuhs.org/Archive/Distributions/DEC/Jean_Huens_v7m/simh_notes.txt

Reading the setup.txt document in the same place, I should be able to do:

cd /sys/conf
make all44		(build the kern & dev components split I/D)
mkconf < hptmconf	(set up for hp and tm devices)
make unix44		(link the kernel)
cp unix_id /nunix	(copy it to the root)

However, when I try to boot the kernel:

PDP-11 simulator V4.0-0 Beta        git commit id: 24f1c06d

#nunix
Trap stack push abort, PC: 071752 (BIS #1,(R3))

Thanks in advance for any help.
	Warren


From rmswierczek at gmail.com  Fri Apr  7 19:32:02 2017
From: rmswierczek at gmail.com (Robert Swierczek)
Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2017 05:32:02 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] Non-US Unix Activities
In-Reply-To: <CAFWeb9LVFEcDGP-WWZ5jGMkbRFUPe4Wu69=nqt6S-GzoXUMQfw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20170405222255.GA4109@minnie.tuhs.org>
 <20170406200839.GA30805@naleco.com>
 <20170406230910.GB30625@minnie.tuhs.org>
 <CAFWeb9LVFEcDGP-WWZ5jGMkbRFUPe4Wu69=nqt6S-GzoXUMQfw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAAFR5panWJRoAnfReRP7F92_kRAzK6EjHf=aB+yJMU355GtRuw@mail.gmail.com>

> If anyone is interested in multi-user games, I have the original source of
> AberMUD, printed on fanfold, implemented in B for GCOS3 on a Honeywell L-66
> (a machine which was literally advertised as being able to withstand grenade
> detonations within N feet)

Yes!  I am very much interesting in getting my eyes on that early B
version of AberMUD (and any other B code for that matter.)


From gilles at gravier.org  Fri Apr  7 19:43:26 2017
From: gilles at gravier.org (Gilles Gravier)
Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2017 11:43:26 +0200
Subject: [TUHS] New on the list!
Message-ID: <CABq8+zfMThCchB9N_8Ytt5juRZPFU5Kx8PoTGdf_1g1_Z+w11A@mail.gmail.com>

Hello all!

Thanks Warren for accepting / inviting me!

Old timer of computing... Did and contributed the port of PGP 2.6.3i
to MIPS RC/3230 in 1993-1994 (cause I needed that to order a
Munititions T-Shirt from Adam Back).

Yeah... I was running crypto on my corporate server, in France, while
it was illegal. But I wanted the T-Shirt...

In effect, I can say "been there... done that... got the t-shirt" :)

Gilles


From alec.muffett at gmail.com  Fri Apr  7 20:24:04 2017
From: alec.muffett at gmail.com (Alec Muffett)
Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2017 11:24:04 +0100
Subject: [TUHS] Non-US Unix Activities
In-Reply-To: <CAAFR5panWJRoAnfReRP7F92_kRAzK6EjHf=aB+yJMU355GtRuw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20170405222255.GA4109@minnie.tuhs.org>
 <20170406200839.GA30805@naleco.com>
 <20170406230910.GB30625@minnie.tuhs.org>
 <CAFWeb9LVFEcDGP-WWZ5jGMkbRFUPe4Wu69=nqt6S-GzoXUMQfw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAAFR5panWJRoAnfReRP7F92_kRAzK6EjHf=aB+yJMU355GtRuw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAFWeb9J6eg6iWWGEtUwJUg9A7uCDVExcXnXNeg9+0WPT4QBmkw@mail.gmail.com>

On 7 April 2017 at 10:32, Robert Swierczek <rmswierczek at gmail.com> wrote:

> > If anyone is interested in multi-user games, I have the original source
> of
> > AberMUD, printed on fanfold, implemented in B for GCOS3 on a Honeywell
> L-66
> > (a machine which was literally advertised as being able to withstand
> grenade
> > detonations within N feet)
>
> Yes!  I am very much interesting in getting my eyes on that early B
> version of AberMUD (and any other B code for that matter.)
>

It's a few inches thick, I'll dig it out and post sample code photos from
it, somewhere.

    -a

-- 
http://dropsafe.crypticide.com/aboutalecm
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From lars at nocrew.org  Fri Apr  7 20:40:23 2017
From: lars at nocrew.org (Lars Brinkhoff)
Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2017 12:40:23 +0200
Subject: [TUHS] Non-US Unix Activities
In-Reply-To: <CAAFR5panWJRoAnfReRP7F92_kRAzK6EjHf=aB+yJMU355GtRuw@mail.gmail.com>
 (Robert Swierczek's message of "Fri, 7 Apr 2017 05:32:02 -0400")
References: <20170405222255.GA4109@minnie.tuhs.org>
 <20170406200839.GA30805@naleco.com>
 <20170406230910.GB30625@minnie.tuhs.org>
 <CAFWeb9LVFEcDGP-WWZ5jGMkbRFUPe4Wu69=nqt6S-GzoXUMQfw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAAFR5panWJRoAnfReRP7F92_kRAzK6EjHf=aB+yJMU355GtRuw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <86vaqg33hk.fsf@molnjunk.nocrew.org>

Robert Swierczek <rmswierczek at gmail.com> writes:
>> If anyone is interested in multi-user games, I have the original source of
>> AberMUD, printed on fanfold, implemented in B for GCOS3 on a Honeywell L-66
>> (a machine which was literally advertised as being able to withstand grenade
>> detonations within N feet)
>
> Yes!  I am very much interesting in getting my eyes on that early B
> version of AberMUD (and any other B code for that matter.)

There is also the very first MUD written in Essex BCPL.  The Essex
compiler was recently unearthed.

https://github.com/PDP-10/MUD1
https://github.com/PDP-10/essex-bcpl


From jsteve at superglobalmegacorp.com  Fri Apr  7 21:35:23 2017
From: jsteve at superglobalmegacorp.com (jsteve at superglobalmegacorp.com)
Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2017 19:35:23 +0800
Subject: [TUHS] Non-US Unix Activities
In-Reply-To: <CAFWeb9J6eg6iWWGEtUwJUg9A7uCDVExcXnXNeg9+0WPT4QBmkw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20170405222255.GA4109@minnie.tuhs.org>
 <20170406200839.GA30805@naleco.com>
 <20170406230910.GB30625@minnie.tuhs.org>
 <CAFWeb9LVFEcDGP-WWZ5jGMkbRFUPe4Wu69=nqt6S-GzoXUMQfw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAAFR5panWJRoAnfReRP7F92_kRAzK6EjHf=aB+yJMU355GtRuw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFWeb9J6eg6iWWGEtUwJUg9A7uCDVExcXnXNeg9+0WPT4QBmkw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7c1a7f72-0ca7-4f81-adc1-a4a4828c9493@SG2APC01FT062.eop-APC01.prod.protection.outlook.com>

Abermud on a L-66?  That certainly sounds interesting!

I bought efylon.org a few years ago to keep the abermud list alive.  I had setup a 4.2BSD SIMH VAX that replaced the login program with the AberMUD 2 that I had found on http://abermud.tripod.com/mudstuff.html .

Although I’m sure running it will be some fun.... 


From: Alec Muffett
Sent: Friday, 7 April 2017 6:25 PM
To: Robert Swierczek
Cc: tuhs at minnie.tuhs.org
Subject: Re: [TUHS] Non-US Unix Activities

On 7 April 2017 at 10:32, Robert Swierczek <rmswierczek at gmail.com> wrote:
> If anyone is interested in multi-user games, I have the original source of
> AberMUD, printed on fanfold, implemented in B for GCOS3 on a Honeywell L-66
> (a machine which was literally advertised as being able to withstand grenade
> detonations within N feet)

Yes!  I am very much interesting in getting my eyes on that early B
version of AberMUD (and any other B code for that matter.)

It's a few inches thick, I'll dig it out and post sample code photos from it, somewhere.

    -a


-- 
http://dropsafe.crypticide.com/aboutalecm

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From steffen at sdaoden.eu  Fri Apr  7 21:56:46 2017
From: steffen at sdaoden.eu (Steffen Nurpmeso)
Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2017 13:56:46 +0200
Subject: [TUHS] A decision
In-Reply-To: <20170406214620.GD30805@naleco.com>
References: <20170405222255.GA4109@minnie.tuhs.org>
 <20170406200839.GA30805@naleco.com> <20170406203229.GA86947@wopr>
 <CAEAzY3_nr91LoC6fW9qTEudPUZtGHa0EwQfgkXgvS5P5njB6kQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20170406214620.GD30805@naleco.com>
Message-ID: <20170407115646.0WVxJ%steffen@sdaoden.eu>

Josh Good <pepe at naleco.com> wrote:
 |On 2017 Apr  6, 23:23, Aram H??v??rneanu wrote:
 |>> I disagree with both of these assertions; I was weary of the repeated
 |>> personal attacks and misinformation, and I am grateful that Warren is
 |>> preserving the focus of TUHS.
 |> 
 |> I agree.
 |> 
 |> Thanks Warren for your continued efforts of keeping the flame alive!
 |
 |I am grateful to Warren too, for a mailing list needs to be curated,
 |and he is putting a lot of valuable time and wise effort into that job!
 |
 |However, I chimed in just to note that the decision, however legitimate
 |and based on the list owner's best criterion, is not an "unanimous
 |feeling".
 |
 |I hope I can be in disagreement while respecting Warren's decision.

I share that with you.

I have had private communication with Jörg Schilling in the past
and i think he is a very sensitive person.  I have used his
software, yes, decades before that, and he has undisputable merits
regarding the creation, maintaining and deployment of free and
open software at least, but likely even the clearing of formerly
closed source code from the sun side of the road.  I cannot
comment on the latter nor the historical facts.

But the last exchange rate of Austrian Schilling and German Mark
that i know was 7:1, still i liked spending the former.  I more
and more often (than, say, in the 70s) get the impression that the
world judges too much by the cover, let completely aside the
unwritten in between the lines, but which for more aboriginal is
the sole thing that is transported by speech!  I can't help to
wonder whether this direction is the right one.

--steffen

From tfb at tfeb.org  Fri Apr  7 22:09:04 2017
From: tfb at tfeb.org (Tim Bradshaw)
Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2017 13:09:04 +0100
Subject: [TUHS] Non-US Unix Activities
In-Reply-To: <20170406230910.GB30625@minnie.tuhs.org>
References: <20170405222255.GA4109@minnie.tuhs.org>
 <20170406200839.GA30805@naleco.com> <20170406230910.GB30625@minnie.tuhs.org>
Message-ID: <0CDD3B3C-5512-4992-90AA-239CB2D1C8D7@tfeb.org>

On 7 Apr 2017, at 00:09, Warren Toomey <wkt at tuhs.org> wrote:
> 
> That's a good point Josh. I've been trying to find copies of UKUUG and
> EUUG newsletters to add to the archive, along with the AUUG newsletters.

We certainly have some EUUG / UKUUG stuff, on paper though, and I'm not sure where they are and it is probably very partial.

While going through papers recently we found what was I am reasonably sure the quote for the first Sun sold in Scotland which might be of some interest (inevitably I now don't know where it is, although we did not throw it away).  We're not sure whether it is for that machine, but we are sure that my wife (who isn't on the list) ran it (a 2/120 we think).  It started out with SunOS 1 (or perhaps before).

Unfortunately we have thrown a lot of stuff away as we just didn't have room, including lots of SunOS & other distributions.

We both have the usual anecdotes about doing what seems now like unreasonably heroic things to fix broken systems: nothing that almost everyone who ran machines in the 1980s did not do, I think.

It's strange to think that when we first seriously encountered Unix it was about 14 or 15, while now it is 47: we've used Unix for the great majority of its life while not in any way feeling like 'old unix people': the systems we started with had huge address spaces, virtual memory and IP stacks and almost had things like NFS, and were just clearly almost unrecognisably advanced over what had existed in the early history which seemed so long ago but actually was not.

--tim

From wlc at jctaylor.com  Fri Apr  7 22:20:06 2017
From: wlc at jctaylor.com (William Corcoran)
Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2017 08:20:06 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] A decision
In-Reply-To: <20170407115646.0WVxJ%steffen@sdaoden.eu>
References: <20170405222255.GA4109@minnie.tuhs.org>
 <20170406200839.GA30805@naleco.com> <20170406203229.GA86947@wopr>
 <CAEAzY3_nr91LoC6fW9qTEudPUZtGHa0EwQfgkXgvS5P5njB6kQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20170406214620.GD30805@naleco.com> <20170407115646.0WVxJ%steffen@sdaoden.eu>
Message-ID: <83CBA573-B91D-4401-9C7A-70F0B816F0F7@jctaylor.com>


Well, this is a fascinating place.  So many pioneers, including Warren's endless contributions can be found here.  

I would feel awful if I were kicked out without any kind of due process.  I mean 100 years from now, this place will live on and continue to be a primary source.

Perhaps, it would be better for Warren to create a policy, if it does not already exist, and then show how that policy was violated. 

Next, there should also be a panel of at least three arbiters that could be used for the subject to appeal any decision.  

Also, having a policy in place would allow for progressive discipline to be implemented: first a warning, then privileges suspended and finally privileges revoked. 



Truly,

Bill Corcoran




From jsteve at superglobalmegacorp.com  Fri Apr  7 22:25:05 2017
From: jsteve at superglobalmegacorp.com (jsteve at superglobalmegacorp.com)
Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2017 20:25:05 +0800
Subject: [TUHS] Non-US Unix Activities
In-Reply-To: <0CDD3B3C-5512-4992-90AA-239CB2D1C8D7@tfeb.org>
References: <20170405222255.GA4109@minnie.tuhs.org>
 <20170406200839.GA30805@naleco.com>
 <20170406230910.GB30625@minnie.tuhs.org>
 <0CDD3B3C-5512-4992-90AA-239CB2D1C8D7@tfeb.org>
Message-ID: <6212e6f1-cb38-4e8e-bb0e-4e346dc2479c@SG2APC01FT060.eop-APC01.prod.protection.outlook.com>


That’s too bad all the old Sun kit was lost, without even imaging it.  I’ve been playing with TME, and going through some motions on getting SunOS 2.0 running.  SunOS 1.0 would have been interesting as well, and or anything from the SUN-100 days.


From: Tim Bradshaw
Sent: Friday, 7 April 2017 8:09 PM
To: Warren Toomey
Cc: tuhs at minnie.tuhs.org
Subject: Re: [TUHS] Non-US Unix Activities

On 7 Apr 2017, at 00:09, Warren Toomey <wkt at tuhs.org> wrote:
> 
> That's a good point Josh. I've been trying to find copies of UKUUG and
> EUUG newsletters to add to the archive, along with the AUUG newsletters.

We certainly have some EUUG / UKUUG stuff, on paper though, and I'm not sure where they are and it is probably very partial.

While going through papers recently we found what was I am reasonably sure the quote for the first Sun sold in Scotland which might be of some interest (inevitably I now don't know where it is, although we did not throw it away).  We're not sure whether it is for that machine, but we are sure that my wife (who isn't on the list) ran it (a 2/120 we think).  It started out with SunOS 1 (or perhaps before).

Unfortunately we have thrown a lot of stuff away as we just didn't have room, including lots of SunOS & other distributions.

We both have the usual anecdotes about doing what seems now like unreasonably heroic things to fix broken systems: nothing that almost everyone who ran machines in the 1980s did not do, I think.

It's strange to think that when we first seriously encountered Unix it was about 14 or 15, while now it is 47: we've used Unix for the great majority of its life while not in any way feeling like 'old unix people': the systems we started with had huge address spaces, virtual memory and IP stacks and almost had things like NFS, and were just clearly almost unrecognisably advanced over what had existed in the early history which seemed so long ago but actually was not.

--tim

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From tfb at tfeb.org  Fri Apr  7 23:55:20 2017
From: tfb at tfeb.org (tfb at tfeb.org)
Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2017 14:55:20 +0100
Subject: [TUHS] Non-US Unix Activities
In-Reply-To: <6212e6f1-cb38-4e8e-bb0e-4e346dc2479c@SG2APC01FT060.eop-APC01.prod.protection.outlook.com>
References: <20170405222255.GA4109@minnie.tuhs.org>
 <20170406200839.GA30805@naleco.com> <20170406230910.GB30625@minnie.tuhs.org>
 <0CDD3B3C-5512-4992-90AA-239CB2D1C8D7@tfeb.org>
 <6212e6f1-cb38-4e8e-bb0e-4e346dc2479c@SG2APC01FT060.eop-APC01.prod.protection.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <B4AE948D-49F5-48FB-8952-099280B12D20@tfeb.org>

On 7 Apr 2017, at 13:25, jsteve at superglobalmegacorp.com wrote:
> 
> That’s too bad all the old Sun kit was lost, without even imaging it.  I’ve been playing with TME, and going through some motions on getting SunOS 2.0 running.  SunOS 1.0 would have been interesting as well, and or anything from the SUN-100 days.

I don't think we had anything that old left: we had only 4.x (and probably only 4.1.x).  I assumed (perhaps wrongly) that there were just lots of copied of that stuff. Anything older was QIC tapes.

In fact there's a sad story about that, too: most of this stuff lived in the machine room shared by AI, CSTR & AIAI at 80 South Bridge, Edinburgh (there was another AI machine room in Forest Hill but I always worked in departments based at South Bridge).

That building had been a department store and had a lift shaft which which had been filled with RS232 and, later, ethernet cable.  I used to worry that the lift shaft was a fire risk as it was a great vertical hole in the building full of probably-flammable insulation on the cables.  And the whole building sat on top of a club and several other structures going down to the Cowgate (the machine room was significantly noisy at night, when I used to spend too much time in it playing with an orphaned Symbolics 3670).  There was a tape store which probably had interesting things in it.  Access to the machine room was insanely hard: everything that went in there was carried down stairs by strong people.

Sometime after I had left (I was there from 1989 to 1999 on and off), on 7th December 2002, the building burned down due I think to a fire which started in the club below it.  I am not sure if the fire spread up the lift shaft (which didn't go down below the machine room level).

I don't know what was still in the machine room & tape store -- certainly most of the tapes & a bunch of interesting but mostly dead machines, all of which were lost of course.

The thing which was lost which *actually* mattered was the AI library, which had a lot of completely irreplaceable early history of AI in it: the AI department at Edinburgh was very early and most have originally been populated by a lot of ex-Bletchley Park people, including Donald Michie, who was fascinating to talk to.

I believe (this may not be true and if it is not then I apologise in case anyone who was involved reads it) that the AI department was making backups but *not* taking them off-site (SB ones to FH & the other way around) at the time of the fire.  They *were* putting them in the fire safe though.  The fire safe (which wasn't in the machine room as it was absurdly heavy so it sat in the back entranceway of the building) fell through the floor, *but survived intact*.  So they were lucky.

But a lot of history must have been lost in that fire.




From cym224 at gmail.com  Fri Apr  7 23:55:57 2017
From: cym224 at gmail.com (Nemo)
Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2017 09:55:57 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] Happy birthday, Internet!
In-Reply-To: <alpine.BSF.2.20.1704071441560.24640@aneurin.horsfall.org>
References: <alpine.BSF.2.20.1704071441560.24640@aneurin.horsfall.org>
Message-ID: <CAJfiPzyA631KHoweuDsvKBKMzcBMo-XoTw0hR9G1K0rUcgScVw@mail.gmail.com>

On 7 April 2017 at 00:48, Dave Horsfall <dave at horsfall.org> wrote:
> The Internet (spelled with a capital "I", please, as it is a proper noun)
> was born in 1969, when RFC-1 got published; it described the IMP and
> ARPAnet.
>
> As I said at a club lecture once, there are many internets, but only one
> Internet.

>From the OED entry of Internet, n. (with a capital I):
"Originally (in form internet): a computer network consisting of or
connecting a number of smaller networks, such as two or more local
area networks connected by a shared communications protocol; spec.
such a network (called ARPAnet) operated by the U.S. Defense
Department. In later use (usu. the Internet): the global computer
network (which evolved out of ARPAnet) providing a variety of
information and communication facilities to its users, and consisting
of a loose confederation of interconnected networks which use
standardized communication protocols; (also) the information available
on this network."

I have seen -- and written it -- abbreviated as "the 'Net".  Is this
common about the globe?

N.


From luvisi at gmail.com  Sat Apr  8 00:05:08 2017
From: luvisi at gmail.com (Andru Luvisi)
Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2017 07:05:08 -0700
Subject: [TUHS] A decision
In-Reply-To: <83CBA573-B91D-4401-9C7A-70F0B816F0F7@jctaylor.com>
References: <20170405222255.GA4109@minnie.tuhs.org>
 <20170406200839.GA30805@naleco.com> <20170406203229.GA86947@wopr>
 <CAEAzY3_nr91LoC6fW9qTEudPUZtGHa0EwQfgkXgvS5P5njB6kQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20170406214620.GD30805@naleco.com> <20170407115646.0WVxJ%steffen@sdaoden.eu>
 <83CBA573-B91D-4401-9C7A-70F0B816F0F7@jctaylor.com>
Message-ID: <CAObyg6YdG2ez-_DgrnXZbMF3sehYL77KxQnOJ+Gp5gRKJVsNDg@mail.gmail.com>

Sometimes a leader has to make difficult decisions. I see no point in
making them more difficult by playing armchair quarterback after the fact.

I also see no point in establishing an entire bureaucracy just to handle a
problem that only comes up once every 10 years.

On Apr 7, 2017 5:20 AM, "William Corcoran" <wlc at jctaylor.com> wrote:


Well, this is a fascinating place.  So many pioneers, including Warren's
endless contributions can be found here.

I would feel awful if I were kicked out without any kind of due process.  I
mean 100 years from now, this place will live on and continue to be a
primary source.

Perhaps, it would be better for Warren to create a policy, if it does not
already exist, and then show how that policy was violated.

Next, there should also be a panel of at least three arbiters that could be
used for the subject to appeal any decision.

Also, having a policy in place would allow for progressive discipline to be
implemented: first a warning, then privileges suspended and finally
privileges revoked.



Truly,

Bill Corcoran
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From arrigo at alchemistowl.org  Sat Apr  8 00:29:16 2017
From: arrigo at alchemistowl.org (Arrigo Triulzi)
Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2017 16:29:16 +0200
Subject: [TUHS] Non-US Unix Activities
In-Reply-To: <mailman.729.1491557525.3779.tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org>
References: <mailman.729.1491557525.3779.tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org>
Message-ID: <CB60E23F-F125-4E63-A96F-BA0F2FE86825@alchemistowl.org>

Ah, so someone rattled our cages… I see Alec has already chimed in so I guess it is time for the others to admit culpability.

I’m Italian, born & raised in Milan and first touched Unix in 1978 on my father’s TTY via an acoustic coupler into the “Unix machine” at the University of Milan. It was actually a completely “illegal” venture because the acoustic coupler was not the official one from the Italian monopoly telco, SIP (now Telecom Italia), but one which my dad had imported from the US as he used to work for Honeywell.

Not only, the Unix machine was another amazing story because it belonged to the “Cybernetics” group of the Physics Department as the proper Computer Science department did not yet exist (it would be later born as an offspring of the Physics department as “Scienze dell’ Informazione”, Information Sciences aka dsi.unimi.it when “the Internet” arrived) and was run out of God knows who’s funds (Italian academic funding is particular in that you get handed pots of money under generic titles and then what you do with them is your problem). I distinctly remember being asked to change a disk pack aged 8 and causing quite a kerfuffle when I switched the wrong pack. I *think* it was a Vax but cannot remember (age…). At some point I was handed my first Unix book, an Italian translation of a McGraw-Hill book which contained a series of exercises. I ended up following them faithfully, including e-mailing root at the time who was a lady called Anna who’s password was “favola” (fable) and, er, it actually worked when I tested by copying straight out the book. I assume that they thought the readership would not have access to the exact machine the book was written on!

At home we eventually landed a string of fancy kit plus access to my father’s GECOS & other Honeywell kit including a Western Digital Pascal uEngine (gorgeous), Apple ][e, etc. but my first “home Unix” was an Onyx C8002, a Z8000-based system with a 40Mb disk and “my" lovely ADM 3a serial terminal on which I learned C on Unix Version 7. That was 1980.

After the Onyx we “upgraded" to a series of disastrous Xenix systems but eventually *the* machine came into our house: a gorgeous Data General Aviion pizza box followed by an even more powerful “radiator” later model. Cue: learn X11 :)

In parallel by then I was also managing a set of Sun workstations (both Sun3 & Sun4) and a Silicon Graphics at the University of Milan for a professor researching “eidomatics”. I had a memorable joust, my first security gig, with the guy running “idea” (name censored as he turned out to be exactly who he was predicted to be in his youth).

Shifted myself to the UK for uni and landed at Imperial College where within a few months I was root on the RS/6000 cluster which had just been purchased and, as they say, the rest is history including running SunOS, installing the first three DEC Alpha workstations in the UK (tera, the server, giga and mega, the “clients”) along with a slew of Ultrix MIPS DECstations which were then upgraded to Alpha via the, then available, “upgrade kit”. Ended up running Alphas & Suns a bit everywhere in Imperial plus a few HPs for the Aeronautical Engineering bunch. I hate HP/UX, for reference.

Following Imperial ended up at the now defunct London Parallel Applications Centre where I had an Alpha farm, several Alpha workstations and “my” MasPar plus a rarity, an AMT DAP. Cue: HPF, MPI, etc. etc. plus Tandem K10000. Then Mathematics again where it was Linux & Sun Solaris. At some point I ended up on IPv6 & 6BONE with my very own 3FFE:: prefix.

Startup time because it was the dot.com thing and K2 Defender was born (http://www.k2defender.com/) as a co-founder, a gigantic distributed NIDS based around a Tandem S-series (Cue: more TACL) and then ported “down” to a simple Unix database. 

Then death of the startup because the product was far too early for the world and the only customers would not readily buy from an Italian & South-African/German combo.

Since then independent security consultant with an eternal adoration for old Unix systems, in particular Motorola 88K-based.

Machines owned in various ways:

* VAX w/ Unix
* Onyx C8002
* Data General Aviion with System V
* tons of PCs running whatever Unix I could lay my hands on
* Sun3
* Sun4 until my Ultra & SS10 died
* SGI Irix on different machines
* Apollo DN10000
* A/UX 1.0 (yes, that too…)
* RS/6000 w/ AIX
* RIOS with RISCOS (I think…)
* Linux since 0.12 booting off a floppy in the Mathematics undergrad PC room :)
* OpenBSD since 2.2
* FreeBSD since forever
* NetBSD only occasionally
* HP/UX
* OSF/1 since T1.0 until the bitter end (I still have a gorgeous PWS 600au with the Evans & Sutherland 3D graphics card)
* Ultrix
* WD9000 w/ Pascal
* Xenix
* Tandem Unix layer
* Convex
* other absurd Unix variants I have forgotten…

Arrigo



From gdmr at inf.ed.ac.uk  Sat Apr  8 00:36:53 2017
From: gdmr at inf.ed.ac.uk (George Ross)
Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2017 15:36:53 +0100
Subject: [TUHS] Non-US Unix Activities
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 07 Apr 2017 14:55:20 BST."
 <B4AE948D-49F5-48FB-8952-099280B12D20@tfeb.org>
Message-ID: <201704071436.v37Earlq009811@farg.inf.ed.ac.uk>

(I'm from the Computer Science side of things.  We (CS), AI and CogSci were 
joined together to form Informatics not very long before the fire, so I was 
often in the building but only familiar with parts of it.  I got to know 
Forrest Hill *much* better.)

> Sometime after I had left (I was there from 1989 to 1999 on and off), on
> 7th December 2002, the building burned down due I think to a fire which
> started in the club below it.  I am not sure if the fire spread up the lift
> shaft (which didn't go down below the machine room level).

My understanding is that it wasn't the lift shaft's fault.  There were other 
vertical shafts through the building, and it was one of those which spread 
the fire.  Apparently the fireman who opened it up got quite a surprise.

> The thing which was lost which *actually* mattered was the AI library ...

Yes, that was a real shame.

> I believe (this may not be true and if it is not then I apologise in case
> anyone who was involved reads it) that the AI department was making backups
> but *not* taking them off-site (SB ones to FH & the other way around) at the
> time of the fire.  They *were* putting them in the fire safe though.  The
> fire safe (which wasn't in the machine room as it was absurdly heavy so it
> sat in the back entranceway of the building) fell through the floor, *but
> survived intact*.  So they were lucky.

That's a pretty reasonable summary, and we were indeed, mostly.  And the
firesafe was at the other end of the building from the worst of the fire.
There were a few people, though, who were taking personal backups and
keeping them safely locked up in their desk drawers.  We learned a lot from 
that experience!  (Now we don't even consider Appleton Tower and the 
Informatics Forum, just across the street from each other, to be 
sufficiently far apart, so we mirror everything off-site to KB a couple of 
miles up the road.)

Incidentally, <http://history.dcs.ed.ac.uk/> has a rather unstructured
collection of historical Edinburgh computing stuff, though it is a bit
skewed by where the contributors were originally based.  The CAAD people
were into UNIX quite early IIRC, but we don't have much from that side.

Dragging us back onto list-topic, we were pretty much entirely a Sun site 
at that point.  We (CS) used to do our own thing hardware- and systems-wise, 
but eventually UNIX boxes of various kinds started to appear.  Initially it 
was a VAX 11/750 running 4.2BSD, which I mostly managed, then a Pyramid, a 
Gould (shared with AI and EE), then lots of Suns.  It was economies of 
scale, really: they could sell us stuff cheaper than we could build it 
ourselves.  Now we're mostly Linux on PCs, though with a motley collection 
of other odds and ends hung off.

So I'm mostly an interested listener on this list!
-- 
George D M Ross MSc PhD CEng MBCS CITP, University of Edinburgh,
School of Informatics, 10 Crichton Street, Edinburgh, Scotland, EH8 9AB
Mail: gdmr at inf.ed.ac.uk   Voice: 0131 650 5147   Fax: 0131 650 6899
PGP: 1024D/AD758CC5  B91E D430 1E0D 5883 EF6A  426C B676 5C2B AD75 8CC5

The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in
Scotland, with registration number SC005336.




From khm at sciops.net  Sat Apr  8 01:09:01 2017
From: khm at sciops.net (Kurt H Maier)
Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2017 08:09:01 -0700
Subject: [TUHS] A decision
In-Reply-To: <83CBA573-B91D-4401-9C7A-70F0B816F0F7@jctaylor.com>
References: <20170405222255.GA4109@minnie.tuhs.org>
 <20170406200839.GA30805@naleco.com> <20170406203229.GA86947@wopr>
 <CAEAzY3_nr91LoC6fW9qTEudPUZtGHa0EwQfgkXgvS5P5njB6kQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20170406214620.GD30805@naleco.com>
 <20170407115646.0WVxJ%steffen@sdaoden.eu>
 <83CBA573-B91D-4401-9C7A-70F0B816F0F7@jctaylor.com>
Message-ID: <20170407150901.GA87149@wopr>

On Fri, Apr 07, 2017 at 08:20:06AM -0400, William Corcoran wrote:
> 
> Also, having a policy in place would allow for progressive discipline to be implemented: first a warning, then privileges suspended and finally privileges revoked. 
> 

But that is what happened.  

khm


From lm at mcvoy.com  Sat Apr  8 01:23:36 2017
From: lm at mcvoy.com (Larry McVoy)
Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2017 08:23:36 -0700
Subject: [TUHS] A decision
In-Reply-To: <20170407150901.GA87149@wopr>
References: <20170405222255.GA4109@minnie.tuhs.org>
 <20170406200839.GA30805@naleco.com> <20170406203229.GA86947@wopr>
 <CAEAzY3_nr91LoC6fW9qTEudPUZtGHa0EwQfgkXgvS5P5njB6kQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20170406214620.GD30805@naleco.com>
 <20170407115646.0WVxJ%steffen@sdaoden.eu>
 <83CBA573-B91D-4401-9C7A-70F0B816F0F7@jctaylor.com>
 <20170407150901.GA87149@wopr>
Message-ID: <20170407152336.GB14089@mcvoy.com>

On Fri, Apr 07, 2017 at 08:09:01AM -0700, Kurt H Maier wrote:
> On Fri, Apr 07, 2017 at 08:20:06AM -0400, William Corcoran wrote:
> > 
> > Also, having a policy in place would allow for progressive discipline to be implemented: first a warning, then privileges suspended and finally privileges revoked. 
> > 
> 
> But that is what happened.  
> 
> khm

Indeed.  Perhaps I shouldn't comment, since I had some conflicts with
Joerg, but just this one observation.  To this day, I struggle with my
own lack of tact, I'm just not good at coming across well.  That's my
problem, noone taught me that, noone encourages me to be impolite,
it's mine, and I own it.  If I don't keep it under control then I lose
access to mailing lists, forums, what have you.

Joerg was warned and sadly couldn't or wouldn't tone down his interactions
on the list.  It's a bummer, because he does have things to add to the
conversation.  But some of his contributions caused people to leave the
list.  Keep that in mind, we lost people and that's never good.

I'm not sure how any formal process would have had a different outcome
and, as khm says, the informal process was identical to the proposed
formal process.

--lm


From rminnich at gmail.com  Sat Apr  8 01:25:57 2017
From: rminnich at gmail.com (ron minnich)
Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2017 15:25:57 +0000
Subject: [TUHS] A decision
In-Reply-To: <20170407152336.GB14089@mcvoy.com>
References: <20170405222255.GA4109@minnie.tuhs.org>
 <20170406200839.GA30805@naleco.com> <20170406203229.GA86947@wopr>
 <CAEAzY3_nr91LoC6fW9qTEudPUZtGHa0EwQfgkXgvS5P5njB6kQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20170406214620.GD30805@naleco.com> <20170407115646.0WVxJ%steffen@sdaoden.eu>
 <83CBA573-B91D-4401-9C7A-70F0B816F0F7@jctaylor.com>
 <20170407150901.GA87149@wopr> <20170407152336.GB14089@mcvoy.com>
Message-ID: <CAP6exYKdFopRAxbXv8sQ8xh8SoXm-mbr_im7kcjksYbqUQvWFQ@mail.gmail.com>

I agree with Warren's decision, but I think out of respect for Joerg this
discussion ought to be taken off list.

On Fri, Apr 7, 2017 at 8:23 AM Larry McVoy <lm at mcvoy.com> wrote:

> On Fri, Apr 07, 2017 at 08:09:01AM -0700, Kurt H Maier wrote:
> > On Fri, Apr 07, 2017 at 08:20:06AM -0400, William Corcoran wrote:
> > >
> > > Also, having a policy in place would allow for progressive discipline
> to be implemented: first a warning, then privileges suspended and finally
> privileges revoked.
> > >
> >
> > But that is what happened.
> >
> > khm
>
> Indeed.  Perhaps I shouldn't comment, since I had some conflicts with
> Joerg, but just this one observation.  To this day, I struggle with my
> own lack of tact, I'm just not good at coming across well.  That's my
> problem, noone taught me that, noone encourages me to be impolite,
> it's mine, and I own it.  If I don't keep it under control then I lose
> access to mailing lists, forums, what have you.
>
> Joerg was warned and sadly couldn't or wouldn't tone down his interactions
> on the list.  It's a bummer, because he does have things to add to the
> conversation.  But some of his contributions caused people to leave the
> list.  Keep that in mind, we lost people and that's never good.
>
> I'm not sure how any formal process would have had a different outcome
> and, as khm says, the informal process was identical to the proposed
> formal process.
>
> --lm
>
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From alec.muffett at gmail.com  Sat Apr  8 02:09:08 2017
From: alec.muffett at gmail.com (Alec Muffett)
Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2017 17:09:08 +0100
Subject: [TUHS] Non-US Unix Activities
In-Reply-To: <CAFWeb9J6eg6iWWGEtUwJUg9A7uCDVExcXnXNeg9+0WPT4QBmkw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20170405222255.GA4109@minnie.tuhs.org>
 <20170406200839.GA30805@naleco.com>
 <20170406230910.GB30625@minnie.tuhs.org>
 <CAFWeb9LVFEcDGP-WWZ5jGMkbRFUPe4Wu69=nqt6S-GzoXUMQfw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAAFR5panWJRoAnfReRP7F92_kRAzK6EjHf=aB+yJMU355GtRuw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFWeb9J6eg6iWWGEtUwJUg9A7uCDVExcXnXNeg9+0WPT4QBmkw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAFWeb9Ki0n4owLvr=_XrDk7uYP-zeZj-5Q9eWHjJJfkzGG7UTA@mail.gmail.com>

On 7 April 2017 at 11:24, Alec Muffett <alec.muffett at gmail.com> wrote:

> On 7 April 2017 at 10:32, Robert Swierczek <rmswierczek at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Yes!  I am very much interesting in getting my eyes on that early B
>> version of AberMUD (and any other B code for that matter.)
>>
>
> It's a few inches thick, I'll dig it out and post sample code photos from
> it, somewhere.
>

I've posted a few images at https://dropsafe.crypticide.com/article/12714

Username "iy7" spattered around the text, was Alan Cox.

I suppose the most notable thing is use of asterisk, where C coders would
expect backslash?  And the lack of types.

    -a

-- 
http://dropsafe.crypticide.com/aboutalecm
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From rmswierczek at gmail.com  Sat Apr  8 03:57:49 2017
From: rmswierczek at gmail.com (Robert Swierczek)
Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2017 13:57:49 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] Non-US Unix Activities
In-Reply-To: <CAFWeb9J6eg6iWWGEtUwJUg9A7uCDVExcXnXNeg9+0WPT4QBmkw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20170405222255.GA4109@minnie.tuhs.org>
 <20170406200839.GA30805@naleco.com>
 <20170406230910.GB30625@minnie.tuhs.org>
 <CAFWeb9LVFEcDGP-WWZ5jGMkbRFUPe4Wu69=nqt6S-GzoXUMQfw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAAFR5panWJRoAnfReRP7F92_kRAzK6EjHf=aB+yJMU355GtRuw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFWeb9J6eg6iWWGEtUwJUg9A7uCDVExcXnXNeg9+0WPT4QBmkw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAAFR5pZnmazx8-xLNgJzcEva97aEEP_aOf1Rzd6FWD7GgsSnEw@mail.gmail.com>

>> Yes!  I am very much interesting in getting my eyes on that early B
>> version of AberMUD (and any other B code for that matter.)
>
>
> It's a few inches thick, I'll dig it out and post sample code photos from
> it, somewhere.

That would be wonderful, but I would really like to bring that
software back to life again.  Does anyone know of an inexpensive and
non-labor intensive solution to this?  I imagine a fanfold printout
should be fairly easy to scan given the proper scanner.  I don't know
how or if the scanner should be taken to Alec's printout or
visa-versa.

I apologize if I sound too eager, but I feel these windows of
opportunity open rarely and then close quick and often permanently.


From toby at telegraphics.com.au  Sat Apr  8 04:24:18 2017
From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain)
Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2017 14:24:18 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] Non-US Unix Activities
In-Reply-To: <CAAFR5pZnmazx8-xLNgJzcEva97aEEP_aOf1Rzd6FWD7GgsSnEw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20170405222255.GA4109@minnie.tuhs.org>
 <20170406200839.GA30805@naleco.com> <20170406230910.GB30625@minnie.tuhs.org>
 <CAFWeb9LVFEcDGP-WWZ5jGMkbRFUPe4Wu69=nqt6S-GzoXUMQfw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAAFR5panWJRoAnfReRP7F92_kRAzK6EjHf=aB+yJMU355GtRuw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFWeb9J6eg6iWWGEtUwJUg9A7uCDVExcXnXNeg9+0WPT4QBmkw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAAFR5pZnmazx8-xLNgJzcEva97aEEP_aOf1Rzd6FWD7GgsSnEw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <40464639-b217-1647-eae4-c3d2c3aa2d8f@telegraphics.com.au>

On 2017-04-07 1:57 PM, Robert Swierczek wrote:
>>> Yes!  I am very much interesting in getting my eyes on that early B
>>> version of AberMUD (and any other B code for that matter.)
>>
>>
>> It's a few inches thick, I'll dig it out and post sample code photos from
>> it, somewhere.
>
> That would be wonderful, but I would really like to bring that
> software back to life again.  Does anyone know of an inexpensive and
> non-labor intensive solution to this?  I imagine a fanfold printout
> should be fairly easy to scan given the proper scanner.  I don't know
> how or if the scanner should be taken to Alec's printout or
> visa-versa.

Yes, a full duplex ADF scanner, like the Fujitsu fi-4530 I own, can do 
it, but you would need to guillotine off the perforations (take it 
around to your local printer, who has the right guillotine).

--Toby


>
> I apologize if I sound too eager, but I feel these windows of
> opportunity open rarely and then close quick and often permanently.
>



From dave at horsfall.org  Sat Apr  8 05:56:57 2017
From: dave at horsfall.org (Dave Horsfall)
Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2017 05:56:57 +1000 (EST)
Subject: [TUHS] Non-US Unix Activities
In-Reply-To: <alpine.BSF.2.20.1704071514080.24640@aneurin.horsfall.org>
References: <20170405222255.GA4109@minnie.tuhs.org>
 <20170406200839.GA30805@naleco.com> <20170406230910.GB30625@minnie.tuhs.org>
 <alpine.BSF.2.20.1704071514080.24640@aneurin.horsfall.org>
Message-ID: <alpine.BSF.2.20.1704080540060.24640@aneurin.horsfall.org>

On Fri, 7 Apr 2017, Dave Horsfall wrote:

> The problem is that some of them are still alive :-)

Oh, OK; I'll leave out the names...  This is the story of the Great Root 
Password Disaster.

Way back at UNSW (University of New South Wales for the Aussie-bereft), 
the major Unix players decided to use a common root password (yes, 
really!) so that they could access each others' systems.  I was working 
for the CSU (Computing Services Unit for the UNSW-bereft) and I thought it 
was a stupid idea, and refused to join.

Well, the obvious happened...  The password must've been leaked (as 
passwords do) because every box got hacked, except mine.  Naturally, I got 
blamed for it; here's a chrome-plated hint: never blame me for something 
that I did not do...  And I still don't know what their shared root 
password was.

More stories as I dredge them up from my addled memory.

-- 
Dave Horsfall DTM (VK2KFU)  "Those who don't understand security will suffer."


From rmswierczek at gmail.com  Sat Apr  8 06:23:04 2017
From: rmswierczek at gmail.com (Robert Swierczek)
Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2017 16:23:04 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] Non-US Unix Activities
In-Reply-To: <40464639-b217-1647-eae4-c3d2c3aa2d8f@telegraphics.com.au>
References: <20170405222255.GA4109@minnie.tuhs.org>
 <20170406200839.GA30805@naleco.com>
 <20170406230910.GB30625@minnie.tuhs.org>
 <CAFWeb9LVFEcDGP-WWZ5jGMkbRFUPe4Wu69=nqt6S-GzoXUMQfw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAAFR5panWJRoAnfReRP7F92_kRAzK6EjHf=aB+yJMU355GtRuw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFWeb9J6eg6iWWGEtUwJUg9A7uCDVExcXnXNeg9+0WPT4QBmkw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAAFR5pZnmazx8-xLNgJzcEva97aEEP_aOf1Rzd6FWD7GgsSnEw@mail.gmail.com>
 <40464639-b217-1647-eae4-c3d2c3aa2d8f@telegraphics.com.au>
Message-ID: <CAAFR5pY2uhCjcXB6Tb4WpxbqJ8OGieAzdwr=W199FX5z+=ACQA@mail.gmail.com>

>>>> Yes!  I am very much interesting in getting my eyes on that early B
>>>> version of AberMUD (and any other B code for that matter.)
>>>
>>> It's a few inches thick, I'll dig it out and post sample code photos from
>>> it, somewhere.
>>
>> That would be wonderful, but I would really like to bring that
>> software back to life again.  Does anyone know of an inexpensive and
>> non-labor intensive solution to this?  I imagine a fanfold printout
>> should be fairly easy to scan given the proper scanner.  I don't know
>> how or if the scanner should be taken to Alec's printout or
>> visa-versa.
>
> Yes, a full duplex ADF scanner, like the Fujitsu fi-4530 I own, can do it,
> but you would need to guillotine off the perforations (take it around to
> your local printer, who has the right guillotine).

Heck, I would settle for a decent camera on a tripod and a well lit
flat surface you can drape the printout over, then take a video as the
source scrolls by.
OK, maybe that is worst case, but isn't there an easy solution that
does not include cutting anything (those fanfold binder covers can be
easily dis/re-assembled.)


From pepe at naleco.com  Sat Apr  8 06:25:21 2017
From: pepe at naleco.com (Josh Good)
Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2017 22:25:21 +0200
Subject: [TUHS] A decision
In-Reply-To: <CAP6exYKdFopRAxbXv8sQ8xh8SoXm-mbr_im7kcjksYbqUQvWFQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20170405222255.GA4109@minnie.tuhs.org>
 <20170406200839.GA30805@naleco.com> <20170406203229.GA86947@wopr>
 <CAEAzY3_nr91LoC6fW9qTEudPUZtGHa0EwQfgkXgvS5P5njB6kQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20170406214620.GD30805@naleco.com> <20170407115646.0WVxJ%steffen@sdaoden.eu>
 <83CBA573-B91D-4401-9C7A-70F0B816F0F7@jctaylor.com>
 <20170407150901.GA87149@wopr> <20170407152336.GB14089@mcvoy.com>
 <CAP6exYKdFopRAxbXv8sQ8xh8SoXm-mbr_im7kcjksYbqUQvWFQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20170407202521.GG30805@naleco.com>

On 2017 Apr  7, 15:25, ron minnich wrote:
> I agree with Warren's decision, but I think out of respect for Joerg this
> discussion ought to be taken off list.

I agree with that. Past this point, as Joerg has no access to refute
anything, nothing negative should be said here publicly about him.

Regards,

-- 
Josh Good



From toby at telegraphics.com.au  Sat Apr  8 06:53:51 2017
From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain)
Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2017 16:53:51 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] Non-US Unix Activities
In-Reply-To: <CAAFR5pY2uhCjcXB6Tb4WpxbqJ8OGieAzdwr=W199FX5z+=ACQA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20170405222255.GA4109@minnie.tuhs.org>
 <20170406200839.GA30805@naleco.com> <20170406230910.GB30625@minnie.tuhs.org>
 <CAFWeb9LVFEcDGP-WWZ5jGMkbRFUPe4Wu69=nqt6S-GzoXUMQfw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAAFR5panWJRoAnfReRP7F92_kRAzK6EjHf=aB+yJMU355GtRuw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFWeb9J6eg6iWWGEtUwJUg9A7uCDVExcXnXNeg9+0WPT4QBmkw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAAFR5pZnmazx8-xLNgJzcEva97aEEP_aOf1Rzd6FWD7GgsSnEw@mail.gmail.com>
 <40464639-b217-1647-eae4-c3d2c3aa2d8f@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAAFR5pY2uhCjcXB6Tb4WpxbqJ8OGieAzdwr=W199FX5z+=ACQA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <2eefb902-e1b9-d56a-f116-4ea57cb03c67@telegraphics.com.au>

On 2017-04-07 4:23 PM, Robert Swierczek wrote:
>>>>> Yes!  I am very much interesting in getting my eyes on that early B
>>>>> version of AberMUD (and any other B code for that matter.)
>>>>
>>>> It's a few inches thick, I'll dig it out and post sample code photos from
>>>> it, somewhere.
>>>
>>> That would be wonderful, but I would really like to bring that
>>> software back to life again.  Does anyone know of an inexpensive and
>>> non-labor intensive solution to this?  I imagine a fanfold printout
>>> should be fairly easy to scan given the proper scanner.  I don't know
>>> how or if the scanner should be taken to Alec's printout or
>>> visa-versa.
>>
>> Yes, a full duplex ADF scanner, like the Fujitsu fi-4530 I own, can do it,
>> but you would need to guillotine off the perforations (take it around to
>> your local printer, who has the right guillotine).
>
> Heck, I would settle for a decent camera on a tripod and a well lit
> flat surface you can drape the printout over, then take a video as the
> source scrolls by.
> OK, maybe that is worst case, but isn't there an easy solution that
> does not include cutting anything (those fanfold binder covers can be
> easily dis/re-assembled.)
>

Yes, there's always SOME way to avoid it, but obviously significantly 
more work. Just depends what the priorities are... Preserving fanfold 
seems like a strange priority, wouldn't it be more practical bound 
book-like anyway?

Or, similar to your suggestion, load it into a compatible printer (so 
that it can be sprocket fed), with some kind of takeup spool, then form 
feed pages through, snapping each one between feeds.

--T


From rmswierczek at gmail.com  Sat Apr  8 07:51:03 2017
From: rmswierczek at gmail.com (Robert Swierczek)
Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2017 17:51:03 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] Non-US Unix Activities
In-Reply-To: <2eefb902-e1b9-d56a-f116-4ea57cb03c67@telegraphics.com.au>
References: <20170405222255.GA4109@minnie.tuhs.org>
 <20170406200839.GA30805@naleco.com>
 <20170406230910.GB30625@minnie.tuhs.org>
 <CAFWeb9LVFEcDGP-WWZ5jGMkbRFUPe4Wu69=nqt6S-GzoXUMQfw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAAFR5panWJRoAnfReRP7F92_kRAzK6EjHf=aB+yJMU355GtRuw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFWeb9J6eg6iWWGEtUwJUg9A7uCDVExcXnXNeg9+0WPT4QBmkw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAAFR5pZnmazx8-xLNgJzcEva97aEEP_aOf1Rzd6FWD7GgsSnEw@mail.gmail.com>
 <40464639-b217-1647-eae4-c3d2c3aa2d8f@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAAFR5pY2uhCjcXB6Tb4WpxbqJ8OGieAzdwr=W199FX5z+=ACQA@mail.gmail.com>
 <2eefb902-e1b9-d56a-f116-4ea57cb03c67@telegraphics.com.au>
Message-ID: <CAAFR5pbo0qbEpymF=oZj-ccXxK6gc8X1R73EKuWUFqb-+n86cw@mail.gmail.com>

>
> Yes, there's always SOME way to avoid it, but obviously significantly more
> work. Just depends what the priorities are... Preserving fanfold seems like
> a strange priority, wouldn't it be more practical bound book-like anyway?
>
> Or, similar to your suggestion, load it into a compatible printer (so that
> it can be sprocket fed), with some kind of takeup spool, then form feed
> pages through, snapping each one between feeds.
>

Fully agree!  If there is anything I can do to help get that online
(in whatever form) let me know.

Are there any other surviving examples of B code from that era in this
ballpark of complexity?


From scj at yaccman.com  Sat Apr  8 07:58:22 2017
From: scj at yaccman.com (Steve Johnson)
Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2017 14:58:22 -0700
Subject: [TUHS] Unix clones
In-Reply-To: <1491527541.58e6e7750449e@www.paradise.net.nz>
Message-ID: <026fcb0e618391672f8133bf75d4464b6d1579f3@webmail.yaccman.com>

Thoth was under development at Waterloo when I was there, and I really
enjoyed talking with those folks.  They viewed the parts of the
system as inhabitants of a community and gave them clever names --
this led to some interesting discussions about the distribution of
functions in the kernel.   For example, I remember that the guy who
killed processes was called "Big Al", and when the process was dead
the "Undertaker" was called, etc.

There were also some B-inspired languages that got worked on:  eh? 
was a simpler version of B, and its follow-on was called zed.  Don't
know that they ever got out of the university, though...

Steve

----- Original Message -----
From: "Wesley Parish" <wes.parish at paradise.net.nz>
To:"Clem Cole" <clemc at ccc.com>
Cc:"The Eunuchs Hysterical Society" <tuhs at tuhs.org>
Sent:Fri, 07 Apr 2017 13:12:21 +1200 (NZST)
Subject:Re: [TUHS] Unix clones

 's/DNS/DNA/' - Not a problem. Thanks!

 I'd come across Thoth mentioned in an OS book at the U of Canterbury
(NZ) Science Library; they also 
 had a copy of the Tunis book. But I never took the time to read them.

 Getting them put into a time frame is useful - it gives an external
perspective to Salus' book, eg, this is 
 what some non-Unix folk thought of Unix at the time.

 Wesley Parish

 Quoting Clem Cole <clemc at ccc.com>:

 > s/DNS/DNA/ - dyslexia sucks....
 > 
 > On Thu, Apr 6, 2017 at 2:02 PM, Clem Cole <clemc at ccc.com> wrote:
 > 
 > > âtry-II sorry about that...â
 > >
 > >
 > > On Wed, Apr 5, 2017 at 9:18 PM, Wesley Parish
 > <wes.parish at paradise.net.nz>
 > > wrote:
 > >
 > >> The mention of UNOS a realtime "clone" of Unix in a recent
thread
 > raises
 > >> a question for me. How many
 > >> Unix clones are there?
 > >>
 > >
 > > âAn interesting question.... I'll take a shot at this in a
second,
 > note
 > > there is a Wikipedia page:
 > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Unix_
 > > variants that I don't fully agree with.
 > >
 > > The problem with all of this question is really depends where you
 > place
 > > which boundary on the following continuum:
 > >
 > > non-unix add-unix ideas trying to be
 > > unix might as well be unix research unix
 > > stream
 > >
 > > eg VMS eg Domain eg UNOS
 > > eg Sys V, BSD/386 & Linux Vx & BSD VAX
 > >
 > >
 > > Different people value different things. So here is my take from
the
 > > "cloned" systems I used/was basically aware....
 > >
 > > Idris was a V6 clone for the PDP-11, which I saw 1978ish. I can
say I
 > > was able to recompile code from v6 and it "just worked" so from a
 > user's
 > > standpoint it might as well has been. But the compilers and
 > assemblers
 > > were different and I never tried anything "hard"
 > >
 > > The first attempt to "clone" v7 that I knew about was in France,
and
 > > written in Pascal - I think at Ecole Tech in Paris? The name of
the
 > > project escapes me, but they presented the work in the 1979/80
winter
 > > USENIX (Blackhole) conference in Denver. There were no
proceedings in
 > > those days. I believe it also ran on the PDP-11, but I never ran
it
 > so; so
 > > I have no idea how easy it was to move things from Seventh
Edition.
 > But I
 > > also don't think they were working binary compatibility, so I
think
 > it
 > > landed more toward the center.
 > >
 > > The Cruds folks (Goldberg) wrote UNOS shortly there after (early
80s)
 > > It was definitely not UNIX although it tried to have be mostly.
We
 > had
 > > CRDS box at Masscomp and before I arrived they plan had been to
use it
 > get
 > > code working before the RTU was running. But the truth was it
failed
 > > because it was not UNIX. The 68000 vs Vax issues were far, far
less of
 > an
 > > issue than UNOS != UNIX. To Goldberg's credit, he did have a
couple
 > of
 > > cool things in it. I believe only system commercial systems that
used
 > > Kanodia & Reed's Sequences and Eventcounts, were UNOS, Apollo
Doman,
 > and
 > > Stellar's Stellix (I'm not sure about DG - they might have also
at
 > one
 > > point). But these were hidden in the kernel. Also the driver
model he
 > > had was different, so there was no gain writing drivers there.
 > >
 > > Mike Malcom & Dave Cheriton at Waterloo developed Thoth (Thoth -
 > Thucks),
 > > which was written in B, IIRC. Ran on the PDP-11 and was very fast
and
 > > light. It was the first "ukernel" UNIX-like/clone system.. Moving
 > code
 > > from V7 was pretty simple and there was attempt to make it good
enough
 > to
 > > make it easy to move things, but it was not trying to be UNIX so
it
 > was
 > > somewhere in the middle.
 > >
 > > The Tunis folks seem to have been next. This was more in the left
 > side
 > > of the page than the right. I think they did make run on the
PDP-11,
 > but
 > > I'm not so sure how easy it was to move code. If you used their
 > > concurrent Pascal, I suspect that code moved. But I'm not sure
how
 > easy it
 > > was to move a raw K&R "White Book" C code.
 > >
 > > CMU's Accent (which was redo of Rochester's RIG) came around the
same
 > > time. Like Tunis the system language was an extended Pascal and
in
 > fact
 > > the target was the triple drip Perq (aka the Pascalto). The C
 > compiler
 > > for it was late, and moving code was difficult, the UNIX
influence
 > was
 > > clear.
 > >
 > > Apollo's Aegis/Domain really came next - about 82/83 ish. Like
Accent
 > it
 > > was written in hacked up Pascal and the command were in
 > Ratfor/Fortran
 > > (from the SW Tool User's Group). C showed up reasonably early,
but
 > the
 > > focus did not start trying to be UNIX. In fact, they were very
 > > successfully and were getting ISV's to abandon VMS for them at a
very
 > good
 > > clip. UNIX clearly influenced the system, but it was not trying
to be
 > > UNIX, although moving code from BSD or V7 could be done fairly
 > easily.
 > >
 > > Tannebaum then did MINIX. Other than 8086 vs PDP-11-ism, it was a
 > pretty
 > > darned good clone. You could recompile and most things pretty
much
 > "just
 > > worked." He did not support ptrace and few other calls, but as a
basic
 > V7
 > > system running on a pure PDP PC, it was remarkably clean. It also
had
 > a
 > > large number of languages and it was a great teaching system -
which
 > is
 > > what Andy created it be. A problem was that UNIX had moved on by
the
 > > time Andy released it. So BSD & V8 were now pretty much the
definition
 > of
 > > "UNIX" - large address spaces were needed. As were the BSD tools
 > > extensions, such as vi, csh. Also UUCP was now very much in the
 > thing,
 > > and while it was a pure v7 clone, it was the lack of "tools" that
made
 > it
 > > not a good system to "use" and it's deficiencies out weighed the
 > value.
 > > Plus as discussed elsewhere, BSD/386 would appear.
 > >
 > > Steve Ward's crew at MIT created TRIX, which was a UNIX-like,
 > although
 > > instead of everything being a file, everything was a process.
This
 > was
 > > supposed to be the system that rms was originally going to use
for
 > GNU, but
 > > I never knew what happened. Noel might. I thought it was a cool
 > system,
 > > although it was a mono-kernel and around this time, most of the
OS
 > research
 > > had gone ukernel happy.
 > >
 > > Coherent was announcement and its provenance is questioned,
although
 > as
 > > discussed was eventually released from the AT&T official inquiry
and
 > you
 > > can look it your self. It was clearly a V7 clone for the PC and
was
 > more
 > > complete than Minix. I also think they supported the 386 fairly
 > quickly,
 > > which may have made it more interesting from a commercial
standpoint.
 > It
 > > also had more of the BSD tools available than Minix did when it
was
 > first
 > > released.
 > >
 > > CMU rewrites Accent to create Mach, but this time splices the BSD
 > kernel
 > > inside of it so that the 4.1BSD binaries "just work." So it's bit
 > UNIX
 > > and a new system all in one. So which is it? This system would
begat
 > > OSF/1 and eventually become Apple's Mac OS? I think its UNIX, but
one
 > can
 > > claim its not either....
 > >
 > > By this point in time the explosion occurs. You have Lion's book,
 > Andy's
 > > and Maury Bach's book on the street. he genie is clearly out of
the
 > bottle,
 > > and there is a ton of code out there and the DNS is getting all
mixed
 > up.
 > > Doug Comer does Xinu, Sheraton does V-kernel, Thoth is rewritten
to
 > become
 > > QNX, and a host of others I have not repeated. BSD's CSRG group
would
 > > break up, BSDi would be created and their 386 code come out. It
was
 > > clearly "might as well be" if it was not. Soon, Linus would start
 > with
 > > Minix and the rest is history on the generic line.
 > >
 > > Clem
 > >
 > >
 > 

 "I have supposed that he who buys a Method means to learn it." -
Ferdinand Sor,
 Method for Guitar

 "A verbal contract isn't worth the paper it's written on." -- Samuel
Goldwyn

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From alec.muffett at gmail.com  Sat Apr  8 08:01:09 2017
From: alec.muffett at gmail.com (Alec Muffett)
Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2017 23:01:09 +0100
Subject: [TUHS] Non-US Unix Activities
In-Reply-To: <2eefb902-e1b9-d56a-f116-4ea57cb03c67@telegraphics.com.au>
References: <20170405222255.GA4109@minnie.tuhs.org>
 <20170406200839.GA30805@naleco.com>
 <20170406230910.GB30625@minnie.tuhs.org>
 <CAFWeb9LVFEcDGP-WWZ5jGMkbRFUPe4Wu69=nqt6S-GzoXUMQfw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAAFR5panWJRoAnfReRP7F92_kRAzK6EjHf=aB+yJMU355GtRuw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFWeb9J6eg6iWWGEtUwJUg9A7uCDVExcXnXNeg9+0WPT4QBmkw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAAFR5pZnmazx8-xLNgJzcEva97aEEP_aOf1Rzd6FWD7GgsSnEw@mail.gmail.com>
 <40464639-b217-1647-eae4-c3d2c3aa2d8f@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAAFR5pY2uhCjcXB6Tb4WpxbqJ8OGieAzdwr=W199FX5z+=ACQA@mail.gmail.com>
 <2eefb902-e1b9-d56a-f116-4ea57cb03c67@telegraphics.com.au>
Message-ID: <CAFWeb9KmUg5ExhHvpuicRyMWS1ZJ-2sJMFs3sLa41tny4_5bZA@mail.gmail.com>

Before we get all complicated, I will go ask some people if they have the
source.  :-)

I was the first person to die on AberMUD, and that particular story is told
here:

  https://dropsafe.crypticide.com/alecm/abermud/README_HISTORY.HTML

...along with a walk-through of the room descriptions from that era, respun
as simple navigation through clickable room descriptions.

I didn't go into the topic of this because it seemed a little far off the
topic of "Unix", but if Warren will permit me a brief digression, some of
which many of you will be completely aware, but this is for posterity:

Over here in Europe the Internet was not king; instead the UK universities
were linked by X.25 networks, the hostnames were bigendian, and the
services often literally chargeable.

The UK academia network was JANET (Joint Academic NETwork) and - since
systems could not communicate with each other unless a godlike "Network
Manager" waved dead chickens over them in arcane ceremonies - the students
wrote, and then advertised, samizdat style, the addresses and login
credentials for various "Bulletin Boards" which they would log into and
share messages.

Onesuch was University College London (UCL) "Bullet", run by myself, Rob
Newsom, and Steve Usher, at UCL.

Steve keeps a copy of Bullet running even today, the history and details
are at: https://www.earth.ox.ac.uk/~steve/bullet.html

At Aberystwyth - where I got a job after graduation, having hacked it
quietly but extensively - was Honeyboard, running on the previously
mentioned L66 under GCOS-3.  Authors: Alan Cox (of Linux fame)

Both Bullet & Honeyboard had "message boards" (cf: single-host USENET) and
"talkers" (group chat & private messaging) - the irony was that Bullet was
meant to be a MUD but turned into a Bulletin board, whereas Honeyboard was
a bulletin board which turned into a MUD - AberMUD.

In the latter case: "descriptions" (flat files, named by channel number)
were added as augmentation to numbered "talker channels", and the files
were given annotations ("#DEATH" - kills people on entry, logs them out) in
rooms with special features; then a basic action parser was hacked into the
chat system; the rest of *that* story is in the README_HISTORY.HTML link,
above.

Honeyboard became AberMUD, got enhanced with a lot of cleanup, then got
shared, and - this is where I get hazy - Rich $alz got a copy, reworked a
bunch of code (ported to C at this point? Or maybe earlier) and it got
posted to USENET... and the rest is more well-known history.

I'll send this now, and then forward the e-mail around some friends to see
if the source is extant.

    - alec


* footnote: we shared addresses of BBSes samizdat style amongst friends;
one very popular place to do that was Essex MUD, the source code for which
is upstream.  A TOPS-10 system, it permitted access to players from (IIRC)
2am until 7am on weekdays, plus extensions on weekends.  I lost a lot of
sleep that way.
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From scj at yaccman.com  Sat Apr  8 08:08:48 2017
From: scj at yaccman.com (Steve Johnson)
Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2017 15:08:48 -0700
Subject: [TUHS] Non-US Unix Activities
In-Reply-To: <CAAFR5pbo0qbEpymF=oZj-ccXxK6gc8X1R73EKuWUFqb-+n86cw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1e89d5607378028b7e5c493f8389e51327587033@webmail.yaccman.com>

At AT&T, the evolution from B to C was quite smooth, as was the
evolution of C itself.   Most B programs were converted to "nb" (the
first C incarnation) by hacking on the character strings and putting
in some types where needed.   It wasn't a big deal.  So I'd be
surprised if there were substantial B programs that survived.

One lesson learned that I've never forgotten is how smooth it is to
evolve a language using the following process:

	* Announce that the change is coming and explain why
	* Change the compiler to accept both the old and new syntax
	* Produce a simple warning message when the old syntax was used, but
make it still work
	* Produce a more complicated, verbose message, but still make it work
	* Produce a message that says "After date xxxx, the old stuff won't
work any more"
	* On the date, change the warning to fatal, but keep recognizing the
old syntax and emit "Error: You used the old xxx, change to the new
one"
	* Eventually, stop recognizing the old syntax and remove the message.

	Dennis was a master at this strategy, so things like the otherwise
painful evolution of changing =+ to += went well.
Steve

----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert Swierczek" <rmswierczek at gmail.com>
To:"Toby Thain" <toby at telegraphics.com.au>
Cc:<tuhs at minnie.tuhs.org>
Sent:Fri, 7 Apr 2017 17:51:03 -0400
Subject:Re: [TUHS] Non-US Unix Activities

 >
 > Yes, there's always SOME way to avoid it, but obviously
significantly more
 > work. Just depends what the priorities are... Preserving fanfold
seems like
 > a strange priority, wouldn't it be more practical bound book-like
anyway?
 >
 > Or, similar to your suggestion, load it into a compatible printer
(so that
 > it can be sprocket fed), with some kind of takeup spool, then form
feed
 > pages through, snapping each one between feeds.
 >

 Fully agree! If there is anything I can do to help get that online
 (in whatever form) let me know.

 Are there any other surviving examples of B code from that era in
this
 ballpark of complexity?

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From lm at mcvoy.com  Sat Apr  8 08:36:24 2017
From: lm at mcvoy.com (Larry McVoy)
Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2017 15:36:24 -0700
Subject: [TUHS] Non-US Unix Activities
In-Reply-To: <1e89d5607378028b7e5c493f8389e51327587033@webmail.yaccman.com>
References: <CAAFR5pbo0qbEpymF=oZj-ccXxK6gc8X1R73EKuWUFqb-+n86cw@mail.gmail.com>
 <1e89d5607378028b7e5c493f8389e51327587033@webmail.yaccman.com>
Message-ID: <20170407223624.GI14089@mcvoy.com>

On Fri, Apr 07, 2017 at 03:08:48PM -0700, Steve Johnson wrote:
> One lesson learned that I've never forgotten is how smooth it is to
> evolve a language using the following process:
> 
> 	* Announce that the change is coming and explain why
> 	* Change the compiler to accept both the old and new syntax
> 	* Produce a simple warning message when the old syntax was used, but
> make it still work
> 	* Produce a more complicated, verbose message, but still make it work
> 	* Produce a message that says "After date xxxx, the old stuff won't
> work any more"
> 	* On the date, change the warning to fatal, but keep recognizing the
> old syntax and emit "Error: You used the old xxx, change to the new
> one"
> 	* Eventually, stop recognizing the old syntax and remove the message.
> 
> 	Dennis was a master at this strategy, so things like the otherwise
> painful evolution of changing =+ to += went well.

That's interesting that that sort of thing dates back (at least) to the 
Labs.  

We did a distributed source management system which has

	- a file format (I can think of 3 different major versions)
	- a network protocol (also had major revisions)
	- various per repository features

All that started back in 1998 and we were extremely good about backwards
compatibility.

That said, we eventually had too many things to be compat with and we
took the approach of supporting 

	- our original ascii file format which was SCCS compat plus extensions
	- our original (once stable) network protocol
and
	- our latest and greatest stuff

Every version of the software supports a 

	bk clone --downgrade repo repo.old

which gets you back to the old ascii format, and then there is a

	bk clone --upgrade repo.old repo

which gets you to the latest and greatest.

What did this buy us?  We only had two targets, the original (not moving)
formats and the latest and greatest.  If you had some halfway repo you 
could use the old release to clone it down to the old format and the new
release to clone it forward to the latest and greatest.

It worked really, really well.  

Sort of off topic but thought I'd share, I wish someone had told me this
picture when we started, especially the feature bit idea (which was that
if a repo uses some optional feature you stuck that on disk.  If all 
versions of the software know to read in the feature bits, see if they
know all of them, if not, spit out "This repo uses feature XYZ which is
not understood by this version of BitKeeper".  We called them bits, they
were actually strings, but internally they were bits).


From usotsuki at buric.co  Sat Apr  8 09:18:57 2017
From: usotsuki at buric.co (Steve Nickolas)
Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2017 19:18:57 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [TUHS] Unix clones
In-Reply-To: <026fcb0e618391672f8133bf75d4464b6d1579f3@webmail.yaccman.com>
References: <026fcb0e618391672f8133bf75d4464b6d1579f3@webmail.yaccman.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.BSF.2.02.1704071918240.57863@frieza.hoshinet.org>

On Fri, 7 Apr 2017, Steve Johnson wrote:

> There were also some B-inspired languages that got worked on:  eh? 
> was a simpler version of B, and its follow-on was called zed.  Don't
> know that they ever got out of the university, though...

Heh, that's so Canadian it hurts.

-uso.

From richard at inf.ed.ac.uk  Sat Apr  8 09:31:08 2017
From: richard at inf.ed.ac.uk (Richard Tobin)
Date: Sat,  8 Apr 2017 00:31:08 +0100 (BST)
Subject: [TUHS] Non-US Unix Activities
In-Reply-To: Tim Bradshaw's message of Fri, 7 Apr 2017 13:09:04 +0100
Message-ID: <20170407233108.0930B114FBE6@macaroni.inf.ed.ac.uk>


> While going through papers recently we found what was I am reasonably
> sure the quote for the first Sun sold in Scotland which might be of some
> interest (inevitably I now don't know where it is, although we did not
> throw it away).  We're not sure whether it is for that machine, but we
> are sure that my wife (who isn't on the list) ran it (a 2/120 we think).
>  It started out with SunOS 1 (or perhaps before).

In 1984 the Programming Systems Groups in Edinburgh's AI department
was contracted by SERC to evaluate workstations for its "Common Base"
program.  We had a Sun 2/120, a Whitechapel MG-1, an Apollo Domain
system, and I think we already had at least one PNX Perq.

We recommended Suns.  I can't find the report we wrote anywhere
online, but I'm fairly sure I've seen it in the last couple of years.

Presumably we gave the evaluation 2/120 back to Sun and bought the one
mentioned by Tim (it was called "islay" unless I have become confused)
a bit later, in 1985.

-- Richard

-- 
The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in
Scotland, with registration number SC005336.



From jsteve at superglobalmegacorp.com  Sat Apr  8 11:26:11 2017
From: jsteve at superglobalmegacorp.com (Jason Stevens)
Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2017 09:26:11 +0800
Subject: [TUHS] Unix clones
In-Reply-To: <alpine.BSF.2.02.1704071918240.57863@frieza.hoshinet.org>
References: <026fcb0e618391672f8133bf75d4464b6d1579f3@webmail.yaccman.com>
 <alpine.BSF.2.02.1704071918240.57863@frieza.hoshinet.org>
Message-ID: <FC0A0B05-F2EA-457E-B190-61E64A425CD5@superglobalmegacorp.com>

Only if the compiler apologized for any errors in French and English.

On April 8, 2017 7:18:57 AM GMT+08:00, Steve Nickolas <usotsuki at buric.co> wrote:
>On Fri, 7 Apr 2017, Steve Johnson wrote:
>
>> There were also some B-inspired languages that got worked on:  eh? 
>> was a simpler version of B, and its follow-on was called zed.  Don't
>> know that they ever got out of the university, though...
>
>Heh, that's so Canadian it hurts.
>
>-uso.

-- 
Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
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From jsteve at superglobalmegacorp.com  Sat Apr  8 11:26:11 2017
From: jsteve at superglobalmegacorp.com (Jason Stevens)
Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2017 09:26:11 +0800
Subject: [TUHS] Unix clones
In-Reply-To: <alpine.BSF.2.02.1704071918240.57863@frieza.hoshinet.org>
References: <026fcb0e618391672f8133bf75d4464b6d1579f3@webmail.yaccman.com>
 <alpine.BSF.2.02.1704071918240.57863@frieza.hoshinet.org>
Message-ID: <FC0A0B05-F2EA-457E-B190-61E64A425CD5@superglobalmegacorp.com>

Only if the compiler apologized for any errors in French and English.

On April 8, 2017 7:18:57 AM GMT+08:00, Steve Nickolas <usotsuki at buric.co> wrote:
>On Fri, 7 Apr 2017, Steve Johnson wrote:
>
>> There were also some B-inspired languages that got worked on:  eh? 
>> was a simpler version of B, and its follow-on was called zed.  Don't
>> know that they ever got out of the university, though...
>
>Heh, that's so Canadian it hurts.
>
>-uso.

-- 
Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
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From dave at horsfall.org  Sat Apr  8 15:13:42 2017
From: dave at horsfall.org (Dave Horsfall)
Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2017 15:13:42 +1000 (EST)
Subject: [TUHS] Happy birthday, Internet!
In-Reply-To: <20170407065725.GG34113@eureka.lemis.com>
References: <alpine.BSF.2.20.1704071441560.24640@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <86tw604x6n.fsf@molnjunk.nocrew.org>
 <20170407065725.GG34113@eureka.lemis.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.BSF.2.20.1704081456380.24640@aneurin.horsfall.org>

On Fri, 7 Apr 2017, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote:

> > Actual data transmissions were first made on October 29 later that 
> > year. If my two-minute research checks out.
> 
> Yes, this was my date, too, though I call it 30 October (UTC).
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Internet#ARPANET

This is a problem that I regularly face, when keeping a global calendar.

I'm in Australia (Sydney time), which is pretty much at the leading edge 
of the dateline, but most of America is close to the trailing edge, and 
therefore events can happen "yesterday".

So, which reference should I use?  My time, US time (for US events), or 
UTC?  I'm starting to lean towards the latter, but it's equally confusing; 
I'll have people saying that it happened yesterday, by their reference.

I dimly recall that the moon landings were on GMT (not the same as UTC),
for example.

-- 
Dave Horsfall DTM (VK2KFU)  "Those who don't understand security will suffer."


From berny at berwynlodge.com  Sat Apr  8 19:46:46 2017
From: berny at berwynlodge.com (Berny Goodheart)
Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2017 10:46:46 +0100
Subject: [TUHS] Non-US Unix Activities
Message-ID: <D432BED9-68BD-4755-9515-7453D392D49B@berwynlodge.com>

> On 7 Apr 2017, at 03:00, tuhs-request at minnie.tuhs.org wrote:
> 
> That's a good point Josh. I've been trying to find copies of UKUUG and
> EUUG newsletters to add to the archive, along with the AUUG newsletters.
> 
> So if you're on this list and outside of the US, now is the time to
> speak up with anecotes etc. Oh, and if you have anything worth adding
> to the Unix Archive, please let me know


Sheesh! Where to begin....

When I lived in Aus my wife and I were very close friends with John and Marrion. When he passed away, Marrion asked me to clean up his office at UNSW and collect anything of importance. Suffice to say I collected an awful lot of extremely important Unix memorabilia including copies of his books and his first original copy with hand written editing and signed by both Ken and Dennis. There's also the original Unix licenses signed off by BWK. There is so much stuff I can't list it all here but it's boxes (emphasing plural). When I left Aus I brought all this stuff for safe keeping back to the UK. That was 1996. Some time ago, I think at leat 15 years past I was in contact with someone from AUUG (grog may recall) hoping that they would send to collect it all but nothing happened. I also spoke to Armando about all this stuff he suggested a few things but even USENIX group weren't interested. So here I am with all this important stuff.....I would dearly love to hand it off. However I want some sort of guarantee that it would be housed somewhere safe for prosperity and not eventually ending up on eBay...if you know what I mean.

As to AUUGN...well one of the boxes contains just about every copy of the newsletter that was published since issue 1 through to the 1996 editions.

Warren please email me if you want to discuss further.
Cheers
Berny 

Sent from my iPhone
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From jsteve at superglobalmegacorp.com  Sat Apr  8 20:28:23 2017
From: jsteve at superglobalmegacorp.com (Jason Stevens)
Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2017 18:28:23 +0800
Subject: [TUHS] Non-US Unix Activities
In-Reply-To: <D432BED9-68BD-4755-9515-7453D392D49B@berwynlodge.com>
References: <D432BED9-68BD-4755-9515-7453D392D49B@berwynlodge.com>
Message-ID: <ED581FCC-D8A5-469F-94F2-4FA0B10BCFD4@superglobalmegacorp.com>

I'm sure Jason Scott over at archive.org would be more than happy to archive it.

On April 8, 2017 5:46:46 PM GMT+08:00, Berny Goodheart <berny at berwynlodge.com> wrote:
>On 7 Apr 2017, at 03:00,  tuhs-request at minnie.tuhs.org
><mailto:tuhs-request at minnie.tuhs.org>  wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>That's a good point Josh. I've been trying to find copies of UKUUG and
>
>
>EUUG newsletters to add to the archive, along with the AUUG
>newsletters.
>
>
>
>
>
>So if you're on this list and outside of the US, now is the time to
>
>
>speak up with anecotes etc. Oh, and if you have anything worth adding
>
>
>to the Unix Archive, please let me know
>
>
>Sheesh! Where to begin....
>
>When I lived in Aus my wife and I were very close friends with John and
>Marrion. When he passed away, Marrion asked me to clean up his office
>at
>UNSW and collect anything of importance. Suffice to say I collected an
>awful lot of extremely important Unix memorabilia including copies of
>his books and his first original copy with hand written editing and
>signed by both Ken and Dennis. There's also the original Unix licenses
>signed off by BWK. There is so much stuff I can't list it all here but
>it's boxes (emphasing plural). When I left Aus I brought all this stuff
>for safe keeping back to the UK. That was 1996. Some time ago, I think
>at leat 15 years past I was in contact with someone from AUUG (grog may
>recall) hoping that they would send to collect it all but nothing
>happened. I also spoke to Armando about all this stuff he suggested a
>few things but even USENIX group weren't interested. So here I am with
>all this important stuff.....I would dearly love to hand it off.
>However
>I want some sort of guarantee that it would be housed somewhere safe
>for
>prosperity and not eventually ending up on eBay...if you know what I
>mean.
>
>As to AUUGN...well one of the boxes contains just about every copy of
>the newsletter that was published since issue 1 through to the 1996
>editions.
>
>Warren please email me if you want to discuss further.
>Cheers
>Berny 
>
>Sent from my iPhone

-- 
Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
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From tfb at tfeb.org  Sat Apr  8 20:57:13 2017
From: tfb at tfeb.org (Tim Bradshaw)
Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2017 11:57:13 +0100
Subject: [TUHS] Non-US Unix Activities
In-Reply-To: <20170407233108.0930B114FBE6@macaroni.inf.ed.ac.uk>
References: <20170407233108.0930B114FBE6@macaroni.inf.ed.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <42157DA1-A228-4E1F-96F2-8257D4AC6534@tfeb.org>

On 8 Apr 2017, at 00:31, Richard Tobin <richard at inf.ed.ac.uk> wrote:
> 
> Presumably we gave the evaluation 2/120 back to Sun and bought the one
> mentioned by Tim (it was called "islay" unless I have become confused)
> a bit later, in 1985.


Gail says it was.  She thinks Islay *was* the evaluation machine, which was bought after it was evaluated (but she also says you'd know better).  I also remember (from reading the report?  It was all long before I was there of course) that an HLH Orion was evaluated, although this may be wrong.

That machine (islay) was, much later, given to Sun at Linlithgow as an artifact, but it is presumably gone now.

From jsteve at superglobalmegacorp.com  Sat Apr  8 21:13:48 2017
From: jsteve at superglobalmegacorp.com (Jason Stevens)
Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2017 19:13:48 +0800
Subject: [TUHS] Non-US Unix Activities
In-Reply-To: <42157DA1-A228-4E1F-96F2-8257D4AC6534@tfeb.org>
References: <20170407233108.0930B114FBE6@macaroni.inf.ed.ac.uk>
 <42157DA1-A228-4E1F-96F2-8257D4AC6534@tfeb.org>
Message-ID: <152637FF-3A89-40F3-BBB7-72CC7C808171@superglobalmegacorp.com>

It is sort of weird how the most prolific stuff a generation later is all but gone. I guess compared to automobiles, minicomputers and workstations are pretty rare things to start with.

Although the loss of IP doesn't surprise me, I've been to too many places that have nothing surviving from their original products, even if they still sell support.  -If a company like Sega can lose all their art assets and source code, anyone can.

On April 8, 2017 6:57:13 PM GMT+08:00, Tim Bradshaw <tfb at tfeb.org> wrote:
>On 8 Apr 2017, at 00:31, Richard Tobin <richard at inf.ed.ac.uk> wrote:
>> 
>> Presumably we gave the evaluation 2/120 back to Sun and bought the
>one
>> mentioned by Tim (it was called "islay" unless I have become
>confused)
>> a bit later, in 1985.
>
>
>Gail says it was.  She thinks Islay *was* the evaluation machine, which
>was bought after it was evaluated (but she also says you'd know
>better).  I also remember (from reading the report?  It was all long
>before I was there of course) that an HLH Orion was evaluated, although
>this may be wrong.
>
>That machine (islay) was, much later, given to Sun at Linlithgow as an
>artifact, but it is presumably gone now.

-- 
Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
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From doug at cs.dartmouth.edu  Sun Apr  9 00:31:29 2017
From: doug at cs.dartmouth.edu (Doug McIlroy)
Date: Sat, 08 Apr 2017 10:31:29 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] Non-US Unix Activities
Message-ID: <201704081431.v38EVTZf016881@coolidge.cs.Dartmouth.EDU>

> Steve keeps a copy of Bullet running even today

This conjures images of a mediaeval faire!

Doug


From doug at cs.dartmouth.edu  Sun Apr  9 01:22:23 2017
From: doug at cs.dartmouth.edu (Doug McIlroy)
Date: Sat, 08 Apr 2017 11:22:23 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] Unix clones
Message-ID: <201704081522.v38FMNjx017321@coolidge.cs.Dartmouth.EDU>

> That's interesting that that sort of thing dates back (at least) to the Labs.

Research couldn't hold a candle to Development on making smooth transitions.
You don't take a telephone switch offline to change a file format or the like.
The development cycle used to be about three years: one year for design,
one for implementation, and one to build a hybrid to bridge the transition.
At 2AM on Sunday, you'd install the hybrid on one of the dual cross-checked
 processors at a time, so the switch was never interrupted. Later you'd
dispense with the hybrid the same way.

Doug


From stewart at serissa.com  Sun Apr  9 03:28:08 2017
From: stewart at serissa.com (Lawrence Stewart)
Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2017 13:28:08 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] Non-US Unix Activities
In-Reply-To: <2eefb902-e1b9-d56a-f116-4ea57cb03c67@telegraphics.com.au>
References: <20170405222255.GA4109@minnie.tuhs.org>
 <20170406200839.GA30805@naleco.com> <20170406230910.GB30625@minnie.tuhs.org>
 <CAFWeb9LVFEcDGP-WWZ5jGMkbRFUPe4Wu69=nqt6S-GzoXUMQfw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAAFR5panWJRoAnfReRP7F92_kRAzK6EjHf=aB+yJMU355GtRuw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFWeb9J6eg6iWWGEtUwJUg9A7uCDVExcXnXNeg9+0WPT4QBmkw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAAFR5pZnmazx8-xLNgJzcEva97aEEP_aOf1Rzd6FWD7GgsSnEw@mail.gmail.com>
 <40464639-b217-1647-eae4-c3d2c3aa2d8f@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAAFR5pY2uhCjcXB6Tb4WpxbqJ8OGieAzdwr=W199FX5z+=ACQA@mail.gmail.com>
 <2eefb902-e1b9-d56a-f116-4ea57cb03c67@telegraphics.com.au>
Message-ID: <0B8DC675-09F6-496F-9456-084BB4C9C8BB@serissa.com>


> On 2017, Apr 7, at 4:53 PM, Toby Thain <toby at telegraphics.com.au> wrote:
> 
> On 2017-04-07 4:23 PM, Robert Swierczek wrote:
>>>>>> Yes!  I am very much interesting in getting my eyes on that early B
>>>>>> version of AberMUD (and any other B code for that matter.)
>>>>> 
>>>>> It's a few inches thick, I'll dig it out and post sample code photos from
>>>>> it, somewhere.
>>>> 
>>>> That would be wonderful, but I would really like to bring that
>>>> software back to life again.  Does anyone know of an inexpensive and
>>>> non-labor intensive solution to this?  I imagine a fanfold printout
>>>> should be fairly easy to scan given the proper scanner.  I don't know
>>>> how or if the scanner should be taken to Alec's printout or
>>>> visa-versa.
>>> 
>>> Yes, a full duplex ADF scanner, like the Fujitsu fi-4530 I own, can do it,
>>> but you would need to guillotine off the perforations (take it around to
>>> your local printer, who has the right guillotine).
>> 
>> Heck, I would settle for a decent camera on a tripod and a well lit
>> flat surface you can drape the printout over, then take a video as the
>> source scrolls by.
>> OK, maybe that is worst case, but isn't there an easy solution that
>> does not include cutting anything (those fanfold binder covers can be
>> easily dis/re-assembled.)
>> 
> 
> Yes, there's always SOME way to avoid it, but obviously significantly more work. Just depends what the priorities are... Preserving fanfold seems like a strange priority, wouldn't it be more practical bound book-like anyway?
> 
> Or, similar to your suggestion, load it into a compatible printer (so that it can be sprocket fed), with some kind of takeup spool, then form feed pages through, snapping each one between feeds.
> 
> —T

Adapt the panorama mode of a camera to work when you pull the paper past its view?

This reminds me of a tale.  At my MIT lab around 1975 we had a Xerox 3100 (maybe?) copier we used to copy 11x17 hardware schematics.  It pulled the original and output paper, slightly offset, past opposite sides of the image drum.  I don’t know what possessed me to try it, but I found it would continuously copy fad-fold printer output onto fan-fanold paper, while advancing the copy counter only once.

-L

From richard at inf.ed.ac.uk  Sun Apr  9 03:41:14 2017
From: richard at inf.ed.ac.uk (Richard Tobin)
Date: Sat,  8 Apr 2017 18:41:14 +0100 (BST)
Subject: [TUHS] sun-spots
Message-ID: <20170408174114.1838611544F1@macaroni.inf.ed.ac.uk>

In the 1980s an important resource for Sun users was the sun-spots
mailing list.  I can't find an archive of it, though some digests were
posted to comp.sys.sun and are accessible (with some difficulty)
through Google Groups.

Does anyone know of a complete archive?

-- Richard

-- 
The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in
Scotland, with registration number SC005336.



From grog at lemis.com  Sun Apr  9 10:09:13 2017
From: grog at lemis.com (Greg 'groggy' Lehey)
Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2017 10:09:13 +1000
Subject: [TUHS] Happy birthday, Internet!
In-Reply-To: <alpine.BSF.2.20.1704081456380.24640@aneurin.horsfall.org>
References: <alpine.BSF.2.20.1704071441560.24640@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <86tw604x6n.fsf@molnjunk.nocrew.org>
 <20170407065725.GG34113@eureka.lemis.com>
 <alpine.BSF.2.20.1704081456380.24640@aneurin.horsfall.org>
Message-ID: <20170409000913.GH34113@eureka.lemis.com>

On Saturday,  8 April 2017 at 15:13:42 +1000, Dave Horsfall wrote:
> On Fri, 7 Apr 2017, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote:
>
>>> Actual data transmissions were first made on October 29 later that
>>> year. If my two-minute research checks out.
>>
>> Yes, this was my date, too, though I call it 30 October (UTC).
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Internet#ARPANET
>
> This is a problem that I regularly face, when keeping a global calendar.
>
> I'm in Australia (Sydney time), which is pretty much at the leading edge
> of the dateline, but most of America is close to the trailing edge, and
> therefore events can happen "yesterday".
>
> So, which reference should I use?  My time, US time (for US events), or
> UTC?

Clearly UTC, as the name implies.

Greg
--
Sent from my desktop computer.
Finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key.
See complete headers for address and phone numbers.
This message is digitally signed.  If your Microsoft mail program
reports problems, please read http://lemis.com/broken-MUA
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From jsteve at superglobalmegacorp.com  Sun Apr  9 12:42:19 2017
From: jsteve at superglobalmegacorp.com (Jason Stevens)
Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2017 10:42:19 +0800
Subject: [TUHS] Happy birthday, Internet!
In-Reply-To: <alpine.BSF.2.20.1704081456380.24640@aneurin.horsfall.org>
References: <alpine.BSF.2.20.1704071441560.24640@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <86tw604x6n.fsf@molnjunk.nocrew.org>
 <20170407065725.GG34113@eureka.lemis.com>
 <alpine.BSF.2.20.1704081456380.24640@aneurin.horsfall.org>
Message-ID: <D9A6E50B-04BC-4557-B1C2-AB07CA7A64C8@superglobalmegacorp.com>

Moving to Hong Kong has made this a major issue for me as well...  It can be strange sending stuff from the future and getting replies in the past, just as I then forget to phone people the day after for stuff so I have to slide my calendar+1 day.  It's a shame we don't have a real universal time

On April 8, 2017 1:13:42 PM GMT+08:00, Dave Horsfall <dave at horsfall.org> wrote:
>On Fri, 7 Apr 2017, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote:
>
>> > Actual data transmissions were first made on October 29 later that 
>> > year. If my two-minute research checks out.
>> 
>> Yes, this was my date, too, though I call it 30 October (UTC).
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Internet#ARPANET
>
>This is a problem that I regularly face, when keeping a global
>calendar.
>
>I'm in Australia (Sydney time), which is pretty much at the leading
>edge 
>of the dateline, but most of America is close to the trailing edge, and
>
>therefore events can happen "yesterday".
>
>So, which reference should I use?  My time, US time (for US events), or
>
>UTC?  I'm starting to lean towards the latter, but it's equally
>confusing; 
>I'll have people saying that it happened yesterday, by their reference.
>
>I dimly recall that the moon landings were on GMT (not the same as
>UTC),
>for example.
>
>-- 
>Dave Horsfall DTM (VK2KFU)  "Those who don't understand security will
>suffer."

-- 
Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
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From jsteve at superglobalmegacorp.com  Sun Apr  9 12:42:19 2017
From: jsteve at superglobalmegacorp.com (Jason Stevens)
Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2017 10:42:19 +0800
Subject: [TUHS] Happy birthday, Internet!
In-Reply-To: <alpine.BSF.2.20.1704081456380.24640@aneurin.horsfall.org>
References: <alpine.BSF.2.20.1704071441560.24640@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <86tw604x6n.fsf@molnjunk.nocrew.org>
 <20170407065725.GG34113@eureka.lemis.com>
 <alpine.BSF.2.20.1704081456380.24640@aneurin.horsfall.org>
Message-ID: <D9A6E50B-04BC-4557-B1C2-AB07CA7A64C8@superglobalmegacorp.com>

Moving to Hong Kong has made this a major issue for me as well...  It can be strange sending stuff from the future and getting replies in the past, just as I then forget to phone people the day after for stuff so I have to slide my calendar+1 day.  It's a shame we don't have a real universal time

On April 8, 2017 1:13:42 PM GMT+08:00, Dave Horsfall <dave at horsfall.org> wrote:
>On Fri, 7 Apr 2017, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote:
>
>> > Actual data transmissions were first made on October 29 later that 
>> > year. If my two-minute research checks out.
>> 
>> Yes, this was my date, too, though I call it 30 October (UTC).
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Internet#ARPANET
>
>This is a problem that I regularly face, when keeping a global
>calendar.
>
>I'm in Australia (Sydney time), which is pretty much at the leading
>edge 
>of the dateline, but most of America is close to the trailing edge, and
>
>therefore events can happen "yesterday".
>
>So, which reference should I use?  My time, US time (for US events), or
>
>UTC?  I'm starting to lean towards the latter, but it's equally
>confusing; 
>I'll have people saying that it happened yesterday, by their reference.
>
>I dimly recall that the moon landings were on GMT (not the same as
>UTC),
>for example.
>
>-- 
>Dave Horsfall DTM (VK2KFU)  "Those who don't understand security will
>suffer."

-- 
Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
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From mennis at corvus.net  Sun Apr  9 15:57:15 2017
From: mennis at corvus.net (Michaelian Ennis)
Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2017 22:57:15 -0700
Subject: [TUHS] A decision
In-Reply-To: <20170407202521.GG30805@naleco.com>
References: <20170405222255.GA4109@minnie.tuhs.org>
 <20170406200839.GA30805@naleco.com> <20170406203229.GA86947@wopr>
 <CAEAzY3_nr91LoC6fW9qTEudPUZtGHa0EwQfgkXgvS5P5njB6kQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20170406214620.GD30805@naleco.com> <20170407115646.0WVxJ%steffen@sdaoden.eu>
 <83CBA573-B91D-4401-9C7A-70F0B816F0F7@jctaylor.com>
 <20170407150901.GA87149@wopr> <20170407152336.GB14089@mcvoy.com>
 <CAP6exYKdFopRAxbXv8sQ8xh8SoXm-mbr_im7kcjksYbqUQvWFQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20170407202521.GG30805@naleco.com>
Message-ID: <CAAQydVjrfHD8SRgMN2gymUBN=M1sBZmRw5CrME=3R2Gw_BHtSg@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks for bringing that up, Ron. Warren, thank you for maintaining this list.

Ian


From random832 at fastmail.com  Sun Apr  9 16:34:11 2017
From: random832 at fastmail.com (Random832)
Date: Sun, 09 Apr 2017 02:34:11 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] Non-US Unix Activities
In-Reply-To: <CAFWeb9Ki0n4owLvr=_XrDk7uYP-zeZj-5Q9eWHjJJfkzGG7UTA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20170405222255.GA4109@minnie.tuhs.org>
 <20170406200839.GA30805@naleco.com>
 <20170406230910.GB30625@minnie.tuhs.org>
 <CAFWeb9LVFEcDGP-WWZ5jGMkbRFUPe4Wu69=nqt6S-GzoXUMQfw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAAFR5panWJRoAnfReRP7F92_kRAzK6EjHf=aB+yJMU355GtRuw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFWeb9J6eg6iWWGEtUwJUg9A7uCDVExcXnXNeg9+0WPT4QBmkw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFWeb9Ki0n4owLvr=_XrDk7uYP-zeZj-5Q9eWHjJJfkzGG7UTA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1491719651.446512.938862816.7CC04EDA@webmail.messagingengine.com>

On Fri, Apr 7, 2017, at 12:09, Alec Muffett wrote:
> I've posted a few images at https://dropsafe.crypticide.com/article/12714
> 
> Username "iy7" spattered around the text, was Alan Cox.
> 
> I suppose the most notable thing is use of asterisk, where C coders would
> expect backslash?  And the lack of types.

Are those BASIC-style line numbers?


From alec.muffett at gmail.com  Sun Apr  9 21:03:13 2017
From: alec.muffett at gmail.com (Alec Muffett)
Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2017 12:03:13 +0100
Subject: [TUHS] Non-US Unix Activities
In-Reply-To: <1491719651.446512.938862816.7CC04EDA@webmail.messagingengine.com>
References: <20170405222255.GA4109@minnie.tuhs.org>
 <20170406200839.GA30805@naleco.com>
 <20170406230910.GB30625@minnie.tuhs.org>
 <CAFWeb9LVFEcDGP-WWZ5jGMkbRFUPe4Wu69=nqt6S-GzoXUMQfw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAAFR5panWJRoAnfReRP7F92_kRAzK6EjHf=aB+yJMU355GtRuw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFWeb9J6eg6iWWGEtUwJUg9A7uCDVExcXnXNeg9+0WPT4QBmkw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFWeb9Ki0n4owLvr=_XrDk7uYP-zeZj-5Q9eWHjJJfkzGG7UTA@mail.gmail.com>
 <1491719651.446512.938862816.7CC04EDA@webmail.messagingengine.com>
Message-ID: <CAFWeb9Ln3c_hvDfrK3YgqBbwb3GJw9uhadrL6TM23=bxkS_a7w@mail.gmail.com>

On 9 April 2017 at 07:34, Random832 <random832 at fastmail.com> wrote:

> > I've posted a few images at https://dropsafe.crypticide.co
> m/article/12714
> > Username "iy7" spattered around the text, was Alan Cox.
> >
> > I suppose the most notable thing is use of asterisk, where C coders would
> > expect backslash?  And the lack of types.
>
> Are those BASIC-style line numbers?
>

I honestly can't remember; I think it was the Aberystwyth sysadmin (Rob
Ash) who write a B prettifier (the cited BTIDY) but I can't remember
whether B as a language used/ignored line numbers, or if this was just a
prettyprint thing.

There are mentions of line numbers in https://www.bell-labs.com/
usr/dmr/www/btut.pdf so perhaps they are a compiler convenience for
diagnostics?

    -a
-- 
http://dropsafe.crypticide.com/aboutalecm
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From toby at telegraphics.com.au  Mon Apr 10 02:57:34 2017
From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain)
Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2017 12:57:34 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] Non-US Unix Activities
In-Reply-To: <CAFWeb9Ln3c_hvDfrK3YgqBbwb3GJw9uhadrL6TM23=bxkS_a7w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20170405222255.GA4109@minnie.tuhs.org>
 <20170406200839.GA30805@naleco.com> <20170406230910.GB30625@minnie.tuhs.org>
 <CAFWeb9LVFEcDGP-WWZ5jGMkbRFUPe4Wu69=nqt6S-GzoXUMQfw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAAFR5panWJRoAnfReRP7F92_kRAzK6EjHf=aB+yJMU355GtRuw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFWeb9J6eg6iWWGEtUwJUg9A7uCDVExcXnXNeg9+0WPT4QBmkw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFWeb9Ki0n4owLvr=_XrDk7uYP-zeZj-5Q9eWHjJJfkzGG7UTA@mail.gmail.com>
 <1491719651.446512.938862816.7CC04EDA@webmail.messagingengine.com>
 <CAFWeb9Ln3c_hvDfrK3YgqBbwb3GJw9uhadrL6TM23=bxkS_a7w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <a798bb2d-36d7-4791-f94b-6861557a9a46@telegraphics.com.au>

On 2017-04-09 7:03 AM, Alec Muffett wrote:
>
> On 9 April 2017 at 07:34, Random832 <random832 at fastmail.com
> <mailto:random832 at fastmail.com>> wrote:
>
>     > I've posted a few images at https://dropsafe.crypticide.com/article/12714
>     <https://dropsafe.crypticide.com/article/12714>
>     > Username "iy7" spattered around the text, was Alan Cox.
>     >
>     > I suppose the most notable thing is use of asterisk, where C coders would
>     > expect backslash?  And the lack of types.
>
>     Are those BASIC-style line numbers?
>
>
> I honestly can't remember; I think it was the Aberystwyth sysadmin (Rob
> Ash) who write a B prettifier (the cited BTIDY) but I can't remember
> whether B as a language used/ignored line numbers, or if this was just a
> prettyprint thing.

Looks like something added in printing and not in the source. 
Mercifully, B doesn't use line numbers.

--T

>
> There are mentions of line numbers
> in https://www.bell-labs.com/usr/dmr/www/btut.pdf
> <https://www.bell-labs.com/usr/dmr/www/btut.pdf> so perhaps they are a
> compiler convenience for diagnostics?
>
>     -a
> --
> http://dropsafe.crypticide.com/aboutalecm
> <http://dropsafe.crypticide.com/aboutalecm>



From mah at mhorton.net  Mon Apr 10 03:14:06 2017
From: mah at mhorton.net (Mary Ann Horton)
Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2017 10:14:06 -0700
Subject: [TUHS] 4.3 Wisc file transfer
Message-ID: <850255f3-8ce3-a051-51c7-cb11fcdb0aab@mhorton.net>

Apologies if this is already on the list somewhere.

What's the best way to transfer files in and out of the simh 4.3BSD Wisc 
version?  I can do it with tape files, but it seems like FTP or ssh or 
NFS ought to be possible, and none is behaving at first blush.

Also, what's the recommended way to shut down the system?  I shutdown 
now to single user, then sync a few times, then ^E, but when I boot 
again I get fsck errors serious enough to require a manual fsck (which 
generally works fine.)

Thanks,

     Mary Ann




From random832 at fastmail.com  Mon Apr 10 05:20:46 2017
From: random832 at fastmail.com (Random832)
Date: Sun, 09 Apr 2017 15:20:46 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] Non-US Unix Activities
In-Reply-To: <a798bb2d-36d7-4791-f94b-6861557a9a46@telegraphics.com.au>
References: <20170405222255.GA4109@minnie.tuhs.org>
 <20170406200839.GA30805@naleco.com>
 <20170406230910.GB30625@minnie.tuhs.org>
 <CAFWeb9LVFEcDGP-WWZ5jGMkbRFUPe4Wu69=nqt6S-GzoXUMQfw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAAFR5panWJRoAnfReRP7F92_kRAzK6EjHf=aB+yJMU355GtRuw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFWeb9J6eg6iWWGEtUwJUg9A7uCDVExcXnXNeg9+0WPT4QBmkw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFWeb9Ki0n4owLvr=_XrDk7uYP-zeZj-5Q9eWHjJJfkzGG7UTA@mail.gmail.com>
 <1491719651.446512.938862816.7CC04EDA@webmail.messagingengine.com>
 <CAFWeb9Ln3c_hvDfrK3YgqBbwb3GJw9uhadrL6TM23=bxkS_a7w@mail.gmail.com>
 <a798bb2d-36d7-4791-f94b-6861557a9a46@telegraphics.com.au>
Message-ID: <1491765646.1507730.939232448.028ABAA8@webmail.messagingengine.com>

On Sun, Apr 9, 2017, at 12:57, Toby Thain wrote:
> On 2017-04-09 7:03 AM, Alec Muffett wrote:
> > I honestly can't remember; I think it was the Aberystwyth sysadmin (Rob
> > Ash) who write a B prettifier (the cited BTIDY) but I can't remember
> > whether B as a language used/ignored line numbers, or if this was just a
> > prettyprint thing.
> 
> Looks like something added in printing and not in the source. 
> Mercifully, B doesn't use line numbers.

The fact that they're not on every line and increment by 10 is what made
me think of BASIC.


From scj at yaccman.com  Mon Apr 10 08:45:49 2017
From: scj at yaccman.com (Steve Johnson)
Date: Sun, 09 Apr 2017 15:45:49 -0700
Subject: [TUHS] Non-US Unix Activities
In-Reply-To: <CAFWeb9Ln3c_hvDfrK3YgqBbwb3GJw9uhadrL6TM23=bxkS_a7w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <dc34dda495cb2b31347b7b55ded7b9de1aef52a0@webmail.yaccman.com>

My memory is clearly that B did not use line numbers.   However, it
did report line numbers for errors.  The 'ed' command had an 'n'
command that would number the lines of the file -- I think this was a
result of an early customer for Unix being the patent department -- at
the time, patents had to have exactly 50 lines on each page with no
blanks and the lines had to be numbered...   When writing about a
program, it was handy to include line numbers so the document could
refer more easily to lines in the program, but they weren't fed to the
compiler.

Steve

(Funny how this conversation makes me feel like one of a few surviving
members of a tribe speaking a soon to be dead language...)
  

----- Original Message -----
From:
 "Alec Muffett" <alec.muffett at gmail.com>

To:
"Random832" <random832 at fastmail.com>
Cc:
<tuhs at minnie.tuhs.org>
Sent:
Sun, 9 Apr 2017 12:03:13 +0100
Subject:
Re: [TUHS] Non-US Unix Activities

On 9 April 2017 at 07:34, Random832 <random832 at fastmail.com [1]>
 wrote:
> I've posted a few images at
https://dropsafe.crypticide.com/article/12714 [2]
> Username "iy7" spattered around the text, was Alan Cox.
 >
 > I suppose the most notable thing is use of asterisk, where C coders
would
 > expect backslash?  And the lack of types.

Are those BASIC-style line numbers?

I honestly can't remember; I think it was the Aberystwyth sysadmin
(Rob Ash) who write a B prettifier (the cited BTIDY) but I can't
remember whether B as a language used/ignored line numbers, or if this
was just a prettyprint thing.

There are mentions of line numbers
in https://www.bell-labs.com/usr/dmr/www/btut.pdf [3] so perhaps they
are a compiler convenience for diagnostics?

    -a
-- 
http://dropsafe.crypticide.com/aboutalecm [4]

 

Links:
------
[1] mailto:random832 at fastmail.com
[2] https://dropsafe.crypticide.com/article/12714
[3] https://www.bell-labs.com/usr/dmr/www/btut.pdf
[4] http://dropsafe.crypticide.com/aboutalecm

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From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Mon Apr 10 09:10:58 2017
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Sun,  9 Apr 2017 19:10:58 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [TUHS] 4.3 Wisc file transfer
Message-ID: <20170409231058.8F42F18C0C2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > From: Mary Ann Horton

    > What's the best way to transfer files in and out of the simh 4.3BSD Wisc
    > version?  I can do it with tape files, but it seems like FTP or ssh or
    > NFS ought to be possible, and none is behaving at first blush.

Someone should add the equivalent of Ersatz-11's 'DOS' device to SIMH; it's a
pseudo-device that can read files on the host filesystem. (Other stuff too,
but that's the relevant one here.) A short device driver in the emulated OS,
and a program to talk to it, and voila, getting a file into the emulated
system is a short one line command, none of this hassle with putting the bits
on a virtual tape, etc, etc.

I found editing files with 'ed' on my simulated V6 system painful (although i
still have the mental microcode to do it), so I did my editing under Windows
(Epsilon), and then read the file down to the Unix to compile it. Initially I
was doing it by putting the file on a raw virtual pack, and doing something
similar to that tape kludge. Then I got smart, and whipped up a driver for the
DOS device in Ersatz-11, and a program that used it, to allow me to easily
read a file from the Windows filesystem down to the Unix. Going around the
compile-debug-edit loop is totally painless now.

	Noel


From krewat at kilonet.net  Mon Apr 10 09:20:35 2017
From: krewat at kilonet.net (Arthur Krewat)
Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2017 19:20:35 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] 4.3 Wisc file transfer
In-Reply-To: <20170409231058.8F42F18C0C2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20170409231058.8F42F18C0C2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <9a2474cf-0a88-2de8-c6a9-5e77eb7c95e9@kilonet.net>

I haven't done it, but wouldn't Kermit be relatively painless over a 
serial line?

http://www.kermitproject.org/ck90.html

I used it on TOPS-10 and SIMH, using a TELNET connection into an 
emulated DZ11 (the version that I got working with SIMH, not the newer one).

Put KERMIT on the BSD side into server mode, and just send all the files 
you want to.



On 4/9/2017 7:10 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote:
>      > From: Mary Ann Horton
>
>      > What's the best way to transfer files in and out of the simh 4.3BSD Wisc
>      > version?  I can do it with tape files, but it seems like FTP or ssh or
>      > NFS ought to be possible, and none is behaving at first blush.
>
> Someone should add the equivalent of Ersatz-11's 'DOS' device to SIMH; it's a
> pseudo-device that can read files on the host filesystem. (Other stuff too,
> but that's the relevant one here.) A short device driver in the emulated OS,
> and a program to talk to it, and voila, getting a file into the emulated
> system is a short one line command, none of this hassle with putting the bits
> on a virtual tape, etc, etc.
>
> I found editing files with 'ed' on my simulated V6 system painful (although i
> still have the mental microcode to do it), so I did my editing under Windows
> (Epsilon), and then read the file down to the Unix to compile it. Initially I
> was doing it by putting the file on a raw virtual pack, and doing something
> similar to that tape kludge. Then I got smart, and whipped up a driver for the
> DOS device in Ersatz-11, and a program that used it, to allow me to easily
> read a file from the Windows filesystem down to the Unix. Going around the
> compile-debug-edit loop is totally painless now.
>
> 	Noel
>



From wkt at tuhs.org  Mon Apr 10 10:05:08 2017
From: wkt at tuhs.org (Warren Toomey)
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2017 10:05:08 +1000
Subject: [TUHS] 4.3 Wisc file transfer
In-Reply-To: <850255f3-8ce3-a051-51c7-cb11fcdb0aab@mhorton.net>
References: <850255f3-8ce3-a051-51c7-cb11fcdb0aab@mhorton.net>
Message-ID: <20170410000508.GA28291@minnie.tuhs.org>

On Sun, Apr 09, 2017 at 10:14:06AM -0700, Mary Ann Horton wrote:
> What's the best way to transfer files in and out of the simh 4.3BSD Wisc
> version?  I can do it with tape files, but it seems like FTP or ssh or NFS
> ought to be possible, and none is behaving at first blush.

I don't know how close 4.3UWisc is (in terms of config files etc.) to
valilla 4.3BSD, but you might be able to untar the 4bsd-uucp customisation
tarball over the top of 4.3UWisc. That would get you the ftp binary with
PASV on by default, and the de0 interface set up with a working NAT IP
address. Then you could set up a local ftp server on another box.

I'm nearly out the door for a week's break else I'd try it out.
Cheers, Warren


From jsteve at superglobalmegacorp.com  Mon Apr 10 11:46:54 2017
From: jsteve at superglobalmegacorp.com (Jason Stevens)
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2017 09:46:54 +0800
Subject: [TUHS] 4.3 Wisc file transfer
In-Reply-To: <850255f3-8ce3-a051-51c7-cb11fcdb0aab@mhorton.net>
References: <850255f3-8ce3-a051-51c7-cb11fcdb0aab@mhorton.net>
Message-ID: <4FA45575-95C4-4E93-ACB9-F031BD868D0C@superglobalmegacorp.com>

You have to remember this is old stuff, so you will have to fight protocol drift.

Simh has issues using pcap and talking to the host is, it's more so a pcap limitation.  I think the newer version has tun/tap support which may be easier to deal with, although more involved.

My favorite way was using a web server to serve files out.  As for getting stuff in, a simple CGI or like thing for uploading.

Back in 4.3 land, ftp is going to be active mode, there was no nat, no passive mode, so you'll need to configure accordingly.

How do you have your lan setup?  What host OS? Are you trying to access fSit from the same machine?  

In the past I've had to use uuencode/uudecode on a connection to transfer the bare minimum of a pre-compiled GCC to sparc solaris, so I know this pain.

Also don't forget if you have tty access you can build sz/rz and use Z-modem.

NFS should be present in UWisc, it has many Sun stuff built in.  But keep in mind it's very old, and could easily suffer from odd things like block size issues, akin to stuff like ancient Sun-100U / Sun-2 had.

On April 10, 2017 1:14:06 AM GMT+08:00, Mary Ann Horton <mah at mhorton.net> wrote:
>Apologies if this is already on the list somewhere.
>
>What's the best way to transfer files in and out of the simh 4.3BSD
>Wisc 
>version?  I can do it with tape files, but it seems like FTP or ssh or 
>NFS ought to be possible, and none is behaving at first blush.
>
>Also, what's the recommended way to shut down the system?  I shutdown 
>now to single user, then sync a few times, then ^E, but when I boot 
>again I get fsck errors serious enough to require a manual fsck (which 
>generally works fine.)
>
>Thanks,
>
>     Mary Ann

-- 
Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
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From pechter at gmail.com  Mon Apr 10 13:32:50 2017
From: pechter at gmail.com (William Pechter)
Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2017 23:32:50 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] 4.3 Wisc file transfer
In-Reply-To: <20170410000508.GA28291@minnie.tuhs.org>
References: <850255f3-8ce3-a051-51c7-cb11fcdb0aab@mhorton.net>
 <20170410000508.GA28291@minnie.tuhs.org>
Message-ID: <406d9148-497c-4bfe-89a9-19103af4add4.maildroid@localhost>

Should work fine with the 4.3 template tape... But I would save the original kernel
just in case

I moved binaries from the older 4.3 to Reno and uWisc without problems. 

Ftp works.  I wish I could get lynx and wet to build. 

Bill





-----Original Message-----
From: Warren Toomey <wkt at tuhs.org>
To: Mary Ann Horton <mah at mhorton.net>
Cc: TUHS main list <tuhs at minnie.tuhs.org>
Sent: Sun, 09 Apr 2017 20:05
Subject: Re: [TUHS] 4.3 Wisc file transfer

On Sun, Apr 09, 2017 at 10:14:06AM -0700, Mary Ann Horton wrote:
> What's the best way to transfer files in and out of the simh 4.3BSD Wisc
> version?  I can do it with tape files, but it seems like FTP or ssh or NFS
> ought to be possible, and none is behaving at first blush.

I don't know how close 4.3UWisc is (in terms of config files etc.) to
valilla 4.3BSD, but you might be able to untar the 4bsd-uucp customisation
tarball over the top of 4.3UWisc. That would get you the ftp binary with
PASV on by default, and the de0 interface set up with a working NAT IP
address. Then you could set up a local ftp server on another box.

I'm nearly out the door for a week's break else I'd try it out.
Cheers, Warren


From jsteve at superglobalmegacorp.com  Mon Apr 10 13:56:56 2017
From: jsteve at superglobalmegacorp.com (jsteve at superglobalmegacorp.com)
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2017 11:56:56 +0800
Subject: [TUHS] 4.3 Wisc file transfer
In-Reply-To: <406d9148-497c-4bfe-89a9-19103af4add4.maildroid@localhost>
References: <850255f3-8ce3-a051-51c7-cb11fcdb0aab@mhorton.net>
 <20170410000508.GA28291@minnie.tuhs.org>
 <406d9148-497c-4bfe-89a9-19103af4add4.maildroid@localhost>
Message-ID: <a969be2f-b196-4e03-9c2b-c13b745641ab@SG2APC01FT051.eop-APC01.prod.protection.outlook.com>

I have a pre-built Lynx for 4.3 UWISC here:
https://sourceforge.net/projects/bsd42/files/Package%20Tapes/4.3%20BSD%20Uwisc/lynx-2.8.2.binary.BSD-4.3.Uwisc.tap.bz2/download

I recall 4.3 RENO being incredibly unstable, and having major issues compiling lynx as some of the files are pretty big.  Basically I found 4.3 UWisc hiding in a directory on TUHS, and though I’d see what it was and I found it to be a FAR FAR superior thing to not only RENO, but stock 4.3 .

Speaking of AberMUD, I have version 2 built for pretty much everything....

https://sourceforge.net/projects/bsd42/files/Package%20Tapes/4.3%20BSD%20Uwisc/AberMUD-2.BSD-4.3.Uwisc.tap.bz2/download

I need to troll the old usenet stuff for some sz/rz and an old httpd, maybe Apache 1.3 may work as well, I mean I did get it to actually build for NT 3. 1 of all things, so a BSD shouldn’t be such a long shot.  Maybe add in a perl, and we can have a semi useful gateway....  Although I guess adding in MySQL and going full *AMP may be a bit crazy, but it could be useful.. And maybe it’d open up WebDAV for shuffling files around.

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: William Pechter
Sent: Monday, 10 April 2017 11:33 AM
To: Mary Ann Horton; Warren Toomey
Cc: TUHS main list
Subject: Re: [TUHS] 4.3 Wisc file transfer

Should work fine with the 4.3 template tape... But I would save the original kernel
just in case

I moved binaries from the older 4.3 to Reno and uWisc without problems. 

Ftp works.  I wish I could get lynx and wet to build. 

Bill





-----Original Message-----
From: Warren Toomey <wkt at tuhs.org>
To: Mary Ann Horton <mah at mhorton.net>
Cc: TUHS main list <tuhs at minnie.tuhs.org>
Sent: Sun, 09 Apr 2017 20:05
Subject: Re: [TUHS] 4.3 Wisc file transfer

On Sun, Apr 09, 2017 at 10:14:06AM -0700, Mary Ann Horton wrote:
> What's the best way to transfer files in and out of the simh 4.3BSD Wisc
> version?  I can do it with tape files, but it seems like FTP or ssh or NFS
> ought to be possible, and none is behaving at first blush.

I don't know how close 4.3UWisc is (in terms of config files etc.) to
valilla 4.3BSD, but you might be able to untar the 4bsd-uucp customisation
tarball over the top of 4.3UWisc. That would get you the ftp binary with
PASV on by default, and the de0 interface set up with a working NAT IP
address. Then you could set up a local ftp server on another box.

I'm nearly out the door for a week's break else I'd try it out.
Cheers, Warren

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From henry.r.bent at gmail.com  Mon Apr 10 14:26:37 2017
From: henry.r.bent at gmail.com (Henry Bent)
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2017 00:26:37 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] 4.3 Wisc file transfer
In-Reply-To: <a969be2f-b196-4e03-9c2b-c13b745641ab@SG2APC01FT051.eop-APC01.prod.protection.outlook.com>
References: <850255f3-8ce3-a051-51c7-cb11fcdb0aab@mhorton.net>
 <20170410000508.GA28291@minnie.tuhs.org>
 <406d9148-497c-4bfe-89a9-19103af4add4.maildroid@localhost>
 <a969be2f-b196-4e03-9c2b-c13b745641ab@SG2APC01FT051.eop-APC01.prod.protection.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <CAEdTPBf=zG82ZnH33CcdmeVKdDVG_AHnxT0pvT26Vqzh4qXyCA@mail.gmail.com>

I haven't worked too much with 4.3BSD but I have worked extensively with
Ultrix 1 which is basically 4.2.  If you can get a relatively recent gmake
and gcc 2 going, that should be enough to get bash 2 built, and from there
you can use that to run configure scripts with LIBS=-liberty which should
be enough for most smaller programs.  Perl 5.6 should be possible. If you
really want a web server, maybe try thttpd.  MySQL/PHP/WebDAV seem like a
pipe dream, 4.3BSD doesn't have dynamic loading and even if you can get
around that you're still going to run into memory limitations in a big
hurry.

Personally, I just set up rsh so that I can use rcp to move files in and
out. Setting up rsh on a modern OS can be a pain but it's still much
simpler than most of what is being proposed here. I find that life is much
easier if you look at what tools are available in the historic OS and find
a way to use those with a modern OS, rather than the other way around.

Oh, and I'm not sure what the 4.3BSD default is, but make sure your
interface isn't using trailers. They don't play well with modern networking.

-Henry

On 9 April 2017 at 23:56, <jsteve at superglobalmegacorp.com> wrote:

> I have a pre-built Lynx for 4.3 UWISC here:
>
> https://sourceforge.net/projects/bsd42/files/Package%
> 20Tapes/4.3%20BSD%20Uwisc/lynx-2.8.2.binary.BSD-4.3.Uwisc.tap.bz2/download
>
>
>
> I recall 4.3 RENO being incredibly unstable, and having major issues
> compiling lynx as some of the files are pretty big.  Basically I found 4.3
> UWisc hiding in a directory on TUHS, and though I’d see what it was and I
> found it to be a FAR FAR superior thing to not only RENO, but stock 4.3 .
>
>
>
> Speaking of AberMUD, I have version 2 built for pretty much everything....
>
>
>
> https://sourceforge.net/projects/bsd42/files/Package%
> 20Tapes/4.3%20BSD%20Uwisc/AberMUD-2.BSD-4.3.Uwisc.tap.bz2/download
>
>
>
> I need to troll the old usenet stuff for some sz/rz and an old httpd,
> maybe Apache 1.3 may work as well, I mean I did get it to actually build
> for NT 3. 1 of all things, so a BSD shouldn’t be such a long shot.  Maybe
> add in a perl, and we can have a semi useful gateway....  Although I guess
> adding in MySQL and going full *AMP may be a bit crazy, but it could be
> useful.. And maybe it’d open up WebDAV for shuffling files around.
>
>
>
> Sent from Mail <https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for
> Windows 10
>
>
>
> *From: *William Pechter <pechter at gmail.com>
> *Sent: *Monday, 10 April 2017 11:33 AM
> *To: *Mary Ann Horton <mah at mhorton.net>; Warren Toomey <wkt at tuhs.org>
> *Cc: *TUHS main list <tuhs at minnie.tuhs.org>
> *Subject: *Re: [TUHS] 4.3 Wisc file transfer
>
>
>
> Should work fine with the 4.3 template tape... But I would save the
> original kernel
>
> just in case
>
>
>
> I moved binaries from the older 4.3 to Reno and uWisc without problems.
>
>
>
> Ftp works.  I wish I could get lynx and wet to build.
>
>
>
> Bill
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
>
> From: Warren Toomey <wkt at tuhs.org>
>
> To: Mary Ann Horton <mah at mhorton.net>
>
> Cc: TUHS main list <tuhs at minnie.tuhs.org>
>
> Sent: Sun, 09 Apr 2017 20:05
>
> Subject: Re: [TUHS] 4.3 Wisc file transfer
>
>
>
> On Sun, Apr 09, 2017 at 10:14:06AM -0700, Mary Ann Horton wrote:
>
> > What's the best way to transfer files in and out of the simh 4.3BSD Wisc
>
> > version?  I can do it with tape files, but it seems like FTP or ssh or
> NFS
>
> > ought to be possible, and none is behaving at first blush.
>
>
>
> I don't know how close 4.3UWisc is (in terms of config files etc.) to
>
> valilla 4.3BSD, but you might be able to untar the 4bsd-uucp customisation
>
> tarball over the top of 4.3UWisc. That would get you the ftp binary with
>
> PASV on by default, and the de0 interface set up with a working NAT IP
>
> address. Then you could set up a local ftp server on another box.
>
>
>
> I'm nearly out the door for a week's break else I'd try it out.
>
> Cheers, Warren
>
>
>
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From rmswierczek at gmail.com  Mon Apr 10 15:40:43 2017
From: rmswierczek at gmail.com (Robert Swierczek)
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2017 01:40:43 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] Non-US Unix Activities
In-Reply-To: <dc34dda495cb2b31347b7b55ded7b9de1aef52a0@webmail.yaccman.com>
References: <CAFWeb9Ln3c_hvDfrK3YgqBbwb3GJw9uhadrL6TM23=bxkS_a7w@mail.gmail.com>
 <dc34dda495cb2b31347b7b55ded7b9de1aef52a0@webmail.yaccman.com>
Message-ID: <CAAFR5pZF=rnrEW5d_NnmEQAmyuXPTVY1UC94U5X9vhRfZUgd8A@mail.gmail.com>

> (Funny how this conversation makes me feel like one of a few surviving
> members of a tribe speaking a soon to be dead language...)

I think there is a beautiful simplicity to B code as a high level
assembler or universal machine language.  The lack of types is closer
to the machine since a CPU generally does not enforce types on memory
or register cells.

Adding types to B (to create C) was an excellent design choice,
however another choice would have been to keep it type-less.  Operator
forms would explicitly encode the appropriate type (such as unsigned
right shift >>> in Java, or floating point add #+ in BCPL.)

Pointer dereference and increment symbols would also need size
annotation (perhaps char and word forms would suffice.)

It is interesting to ponder such a language as a universal target for
higher level language compilers, or as a specialized language for OS
and device driver development.<div
id="DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2"><br />
<table style="border-top: 1px solid #D3D4DE;">
	<tr>
        <td style="width: 55px; padding-top: 13px;"><a
href="https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail&utm_term=icon"
target="_blank"><img
src="https://ipmcdn.avast.com/images/icons/icon-envelope-tick-round-orange-animated-no-repeat-v1.gif"
width="46" height="29" style="width: 46px; height: 29px;" /></a></td>
		<td style="width: 470px; padding-top: 12px; color: #41424e;
font-size: 13px; font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;
line-height: 18px;">Virus-free. <a
href="https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail&utm_term=link"
target="_blank" style="color: #4453ea;">www.avast.com</a>
		</td>
	</tr>
</table><a href="#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2" width="1"
height="1"></a></div>


From dave at horsfall.org  Mon Apr 10 15:54:29 2017
From: dave at horsfall.org (Dave Horsfall)
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2017 15:54:29 +1000 (EST)
Subject: [TUHS] Happy birthday, Internet!
In-Reply-To: <86tw604x6n.fsf@molnjunk.nocrew.org>
References: <alpine.BSF.2.20.1704071441560.24640@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <86tw604x6n.fsf@molnjunk.nocrew.org>
Message-ID: <alpine.BSF.2.20.1704101553520.47093@aneurin.horsfall.org>

On Fri, 7 Apr 2017, Lars Brinkhoff wrote:

> > The Internet (spelled with a capital "I", please, as it is a proper 
> > noun) was born in 1969, when RFC-1 got published; it described the IMP 
> > and ARPAnet.
> 
> Actual data transmissions were first made on October 29 later that year. 
> If my two-minute research checks out.

Noted - thanks.

-- 
Dave Horsfall DTM (VK2KFU)  "Those who don't understand security will suffer."


From tfb at tfeb.org  Mon Apr 10 23:06:25 2017
From: tfb at tfeb.org (Tim Bradshaw)
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2017 14:06:25 +0100
Subject: [TUHS] Non-US Unix Activities
In-Reply-To: <a798bb2d-36d7-4791-f94b-6861557a9a46@telegraphics.com.au>
References: <20170405222255.GA4109@minnie.tuhs.org>
 <20170406200839.GA30805@naleco.com> <20170406230910.GB30625@minnie.tuhs.org>
 <CAFWeb9LVFEcDGP-WWZ5jGMkbRFUPe4Wu69=nqt6S-GzoXUMQfw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAAFR5panWJRoAnfReRP7F92_kRAzK6EjHf=aB+yJMU355GtRuw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFWeb9J6eg6iWWGEtUwJUg9A7uCDVExcXnXNeg9+0WPT4QBmkw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFWeb9Ki0n4owLvr=_XrDk7uYP-zeZj-5Q9eWHjJJfkzGG7UTA@mail.gmail.com>
 <1491719651.446512.938862816.7CC04EDA@webmail.messagingengine.com>
 <CAFWeb9Ln3c_hvDfrK3YgqBbwb3GJw9uhadrL6TM23=bxkS_a7w@mail.gmail.com>
 <a798bb2d-36d7-4791-f94b-6861557a9a46@telegraphics.com.au>
Message-ID: <251427CB-4F01-4D7C-BDED-A1CAB0B38F08@tfeb.org>

On 9 Apr 2017, at 17:57, Toby Thain <toby at telegraphics.com.au> wrote:
> 
> Looks like something added in printing and not in the source. Mercifully, B doesn't use line numbers.

I think people perhaps forget how important line numbers were in hardcopy: in a world where you did a lot of work on a program by printing it out, then taking the printout to your desk, reading it and writing notes and new code on it (which was how almost everyone worked since terminals were a scarce resource), the line numbers on the printout where how you communicated the changes you wanted to make to yourself later on: if you'd changed line 53 on the printout you told the editor to go to line 53 and changed it.  If you didn't have line numbers on the printout then it was almost useless.



From tfb at tfeb.org  Mon Apr 10 23:10:26 2017
From: tfb at tfeb.org (Tim Bradshaw)
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2017 14:10:26 +0100
Subject: [TUHS] Non-US Unix Activities
In-Reply-To: <CAAFR5pZF=rnrEW5d_NnmEQAmyuXPTVY1UC94U5X9vhRfZUgd8A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAFWeb9Ln3c_hvDfrK3YgqBbwb3GJw9uhadrL6TM23=bxkS_a7w@mail.gmail.com>
 <dc34dda495cb2b31347b7b55ded7b9de1aef52a0@webmail.yaccman.com>
 <CAAFR5pZF=rnrEW5d_NnmEQAmyuXPTVY1UC94U5X9vhRfZUgd8A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <E1BCEF67-C6B1-44CD-B305-0270ACF00FB8@tfeb.org>

On 10 Apr 2017, at 06:40, Robert Swierczek <rmswierczek at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> The lack of types is closer
> to the machine

It's not: it's further.  Languages like BCPL and B were fine for word-addressed machines which had really one type in the hardware, but modern machines are a seething mass of types: four or more integral types, two or more float types, at least.

From mah at mhorton.net  Tue Apr 11 01:23:51 2017
From: mah at mhorton.net (Mary Ann Horton)
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2017 08:23:51 -0700
Subject: [TUHS] 4.3 Wisc file transfer
In-Reply-To: <406d9148-497c-4bfe-89a9-19103af4add4.maildroid@localhost>
References: <850255f3-8ce3-a051-51c7-cb11fcdb0aab@mhorton.net>
 <20170410000508.GA28291@minnie.tuhs.org>
 <406d9148-497c-4bfe-89a9-19103af4add4.maildroid@localhost>
Message-ID: <9b8c841e-13d2-21ea-8e56-c467affaa32b@mhorton.net>

Bill, mine is set up to NAT, and here's the FTP failure I get. How did 
you set up your NIC?

Thanks,

     Mary Ann


% who > who.out
% ftp mah
Connected to mah.
220 mah FTP server (Version 6.4/OpenBSD/Linux-ftpd-0.17) ready.
Name (mah:mah):
331 Password required for mah.
Password:
230 User mah logged in.
ftp> debug
Debugging on (debug=1).
ftp> put who.out
---> PORT 10,0,2,4,4,33
500 Illegal PORT rejected (address wrong).
---> STOR who.out
425 Can't build data connection: Connection refused.
ftp> quit
---> QUIT
221 Goodbye.

cbosgd# ifconfig de0
de0: flags=43<UP,BROADCAST,RUNNING>
         inet 10.0.2.4 netmask ffffff00 broadcast 10.0.2.255

mah@/home/mah/src/vax/4.3-wisc> grep xu  boot2.ini
set xu enable
attach xu nat:


On 04/09/2017 08:32 PM, William Pechter wrote:
> Ftp works.  I wish I could get lynx and wet to build.
>
> Bill
>
>
>
> Cheers, Warren



From jsteve at superglobalmegacorp.com  Tue Apr 11 01:42:32 2017
From: jsteve at superglobalmegacorp.com (Jason Stevens)
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2017 23:42:32 +0800
Subject: [TUHS] 4.3 Wisc file transfer
In-Reply-To: <9b8c841e-13d2-21ea-8e56-c467affaa32b@mhorton.net>
References: <850255f3-8ce3-a051-51c7-cb11fcdb0aab@mhorton.net>
 <20170410000508.GA28291@minnie.tuhs.org>
 <406d9148-497c-4bfe-89a9-19103af4add4.maildroid@localhost>
 <9b8c841e-13d2-21ea-8e56-c467affaa32b@mhorton.net>
Message-ID: <6B873C6B-3933-449B-82BF-D1BD3F402A27@superglobalmegacorp.com>

Nat and vintage ftp won't get along.  You need something that does passive on the VAX.

On April 10, 2017 11:23:51 PM GMT+08:00, Mary Ann Horton <mah at mhorton.net> wrote:
>Bill, mine is set up to NAT, and here's the FTP failure I get. How did 
>you set up your NIC?
>
>Thanks,
>
>     Mary Ann
>
>
>% who > who.out
>% ftp mah
>Connected to mah.
>220 mah FTP server (Version 6.4/OpenBSD/Linux-ftpd-0.17) ready.
>Name (mah:mah):
>331 Password required for mah.
>Password:
>230 User mah logged in.
>ftp> debug
>Debugging on (debug=1).
>ftp> put who.out
>---> PORT 10,0,2,4,4,33
>500 Illegal PORT rejected (address wrong).
>---> STOR who.out
>425 Can't build data connection: Connection refused.
>ftp> quit
>---> QUIT
>221 Goodbye.
>
>cbosgd# ifconfig de0
>de0: flags=43<UP,BROADCAST,RUNNING>
>         inet 10.0.2.4 netmask ffffff00 broadcast 10.0.2.255
>
>mah@/home/mah/src/vax/4.3-wisc> grep xu  boot2.ini
>set xu enable
>attach xu nat:
>
>
>On 04/09/2017 08:32 PM, William Pechter wrote:
>> Ftp works.  I wish I could get lynx and wet to build.
>>
>> Bill
>>
>>
>>
>> Cheers, Warren

-- 
Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
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From b4 at gewt.net  Tue Apr 11 01:43:22 2017
From: b4 at gewt.net (Cory Smelosky)
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2017 08:43:22 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [TUHS] 4.3 Wisc file transfer
In-Reply-To: <6B873C6B-3933-449B-82BF-D1BD3F402A27@superglobalmegacorp.com>
References: <850255f3-8ce3-a051-51c7-cb11fcdb0aab@mhorton.net>
 <20170410000508.GA28291@minnie.tuhs.org>
 <406d9148-497c-4bfe-89a9-19103af4add4.maildroid@localhost>
 <9b8c841e-13d2-21ea-8e56-c467affaa32b@mhorton.net>
 <6B873C6B-3933-449B-82BF-D1BD3F402A27@superglobalmegacorp.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.BSF.2.20.1704100842540.2245@meaghan.sj.gimme-sympathy.org>

On Mon, 10 Apr 2017, Jason Stevens wrote:

> Nat and vintage ftp won't get along.  You need something that does passive on the VAX.
>

I wonder if pf's ftp-proxy approach helps any...

-- 
Cory Smelosky
http://gewt.net Personal stuff
http://gimme-sympathy.org Projects


From pechter at gmail.com  Tue Apr 11 02:13:02 2017
From: pechter at gmail.com (William Pechter)
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2017 12:13:02 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] 4.3 Wisc file transfer
In-Reply-To: <9b8c841e-13d2-21ea-8e56-c467affaa32b@mhorton.net>
References: <850255f3-8ce3-a051-51c7-cb11fcdb0aab@mhorton.net>
 <20170410000508.GA28291@minnie.tuhs.org>
 <406d9148-497c-4bfe-89a9-19103af4add4.maildroid@localhost>
 <9b8c841e-13d2-21ea-8e56-c467affaa32b@mhorton.net>
Message-ID: <07561ea3-a986-4076-8695-061ebd73f866.maildroid@localhost>

Either extract Warren's ftp from the template tar tape or I think it's on anonymous ftp at lakewoodmicro.com. 

Bill

-----Original Message-----
From: Mary Ann Horton <mah at mhorton.net>
To: William Pechter <pechter at gmail.com>
Cc: TUHS main list <tuhs at minnie.tuhs.org>
Sent: Mon, 10 Apr 2017 11:23
Subject: Re: [TUHS] 4.3 Wisc file transfer

Bill, mine is set up to NAT, and here's the FTP failure I get. How did 
you set up your NIC?

Thanks,

     Mary Ann


% who > who.out
% ftp mah
Connected to mah.
220 mah FTP server (Version 6.4/OpenBSD/Linux-ftpd-0.17) ready.
Name (mah:mah):
331 Password required for mah.
Password:
230 User mah logged in.
ftp> debug
Debugging on (debug=1).
ftp> put who.out
---> PORT 10,0,2,4,4,33
500 Illegal PORT rejected (address wrong).
---> STOR who.out
425 Can't build data connection: Connection refused.
ftp> quit
---> QUIT
221 Goodbye.

cbosgd# ifconfig de0
de0: flags=43<UP,BROADCAST,RUNNING>
         inet 10.0.2.4 netmask ffffff00 broadcast 10.0.2.255

mah@/home/mah/src/vax/4.3-wisc> grep xu  boot2.ini
set xu enable
attach xu nat:


On 04/09/2017 08:32 PM, William Pechter wrote:
> Ftp works.  I wish I could get lynx and wet to build.
>
> Bill
>
>
>
> Cheers, Warren



From jsteve at superglobalmegacorp.com  Tue Apr 11 09:52:28 2017
From: jsteve at superglobalmegacorp.com (Jason Stevens)
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2017 07:52:28 +0800
Subject: [TUHS] 4.3 Wisc file transfer
In-Reply-To: <alpine.BSF.2.20.1704100842540.2245@meaghan.sj.gimme-sympathy.org>
References: <850255f3-8ce3-a051-51c7-cb11fcdb0aab@mhorton.net>
 <20170410000508.GA28291@minnie.tuhs.org>
 <406d9148-497c-4bfe-89a9-19103af4add4.maildroid@localhost>
 <9b8c841e-13d2-21ea-8e56-c467affaa32b@mhorton.net>
 <6B873C6B-3933-449B-82BF-D1BD3F402A27@superglobalmegacorp.com>
 <alpine.BSF.2.20.1704100842540.2245@meaghan.sj.gimme-sympathy.org>
Message-ID: <D1C68101-E9F7-42C4-962F-FDE66CD49157@superglobalmegacorp.com>

How?  SLiRP is user mode code.  It's the one doing the nat.

On April 10, 2017 11:43:22 PM GMT+08:00, Cory Smelosky <b4 at gewt.net> wrote:
>On Mon, 10 Apr 2017, Jason Stevens wrote:
>
>> Nat and vintage ftp won't get along.  You need something that does
>passive on the VAX.
>>
>
>I wonder if pf's ftp-proxy approach helps any...
>
>-- 
>Cory Smelosky
>http://gewt.net Personal stuff
>http://gimme-sympathy.org Projects

-- 
Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
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From jsteve at superglobalmegacorp.com  Tue Apr 11 22:37:21 2017
From: jsteve at superglobalmegacorp.com (Jason Stevens)
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2017 20:37:21 +0800
Subject: [TUHS] 4.3 Wisc file transfer
In-Reply-To: <07561ea3-a986-4076-8695-061ebd73f866.maildroid@localhost>
References: <850255f3-8ce3-a051-51c7-cb11fcdb0aab@mhorton.net>
 <20170410000508.GA28291@minnie.tuhs.org>
 <406d9148-497c-4bfe-89a9-19103af4add4.maildroid@localhost>
 <9b8c841e-13d2-21ea-8e56-c467affaa32b@mhorton.net>
 <07561ea3-a986-4076-8695-061ebd73f866.maildroid@localhost>
Message-ID: <77AE456F-E619-4107-9738-D0BE721FBB79@superglobalmegacorp.com>

Sorry for replying off the chain, but here is Apache 1.3.6 compiled for 4.3 UWisc.

It's strictly a "wow it linked" stage, and this is just my source tree that I've compiled in.  I did get it to serve an empty directory to me, so I know that much works.

https://sourceforge.net/projects/bsd42/files/Package%20Tapes/4.3%20BSD%20Uwisc/Apache-1.3.6.compiled.BSD-4.3.Uwisc.tap.bz2/download

It's been a busy day, but I'll try to get a webdav static compile.

If anyone is crazy enough to try it themselves, tell Apache you are running NeXTSTEP, (-DNEXT) as it's a 4.3BSD and seems to be close enough, with the exception that there is no shared libraries.

On April 11, 2017 12:13:02 AM GMT+08:00, William Pechter <pechter at gmail.com> wrote:
>Either extract Warren's ftp from the template tar tape or I think it's
>on anonymous ftp at lakewoodmicro.com. 
>
>Bill
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Mary Ann Horton <mah at mhorton.net>
>To: William Pechter <pechter at gmail.com>
>Cc: TUHS main list <tuhs at minnie.tuhs.org>
>Sent: Mon, 10 Apr 2017 11:23
>Subject: Re: [TUHS] 4.3 Wisc file transfer
>
>Bill, mine is set up to NAT, and here's the FTP failure I get. How did 
>you set up your NIC?
>
>Thanks,
>
>     Mary Ann
>
>
>% who > who.out
>% ftp mah
>Connected to mah.
>220 mah FTP server (Version 6.4/OpenBSD/Linux-ftpd-0.17) ready.
>Name (mah:mah):
>331 Password required for mah.
>Password:
>230 User mah logged in.
>ftp> debug
>Debugging on (debug=1).
>ftp> put who.out
>---> PORT 10,0,2,4,4,33
>500 Illegal PORT rejected (address wrong).
>---> STOR who.out
>425 Can't build data connection: Connection refused.
>ftp> quit
>---> QUIT
>221 Goodbye.
>
>cbosgd# ifconfig de0
>de0: flags=43<UP,BROADCAST,RUNNING>
>         inet 10.0.2.4 netmask ffffff00 broadcast 10.0.2.255
>
>mah@/home/mah/src/vax/4.3-wisc> grep xu  boot2.ini
>set xu enable
>attach xu nat:
>
>
>On 04/09/2017 08:32 PM, William Pechter wrote:
>> Ftp works.  I wish I could get lynx and wet to build.
>>
>> Bill
>>
>>
>>
>> Cheers, Warren

-- 
Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
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From krewat at kilonet.net  Thu Apr 13 03:18:53 2017
From: krewat at kilonet.net (Arthur Krewat)
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2017 13:18:53 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] BSD 4.2 distribution differences
Message-ID: <ae3ddeea-db2c-69ad-66cf-53841f1a869d@kilonet.net>

Hello all...

I have a BSD 4.2 distribution that I imaged a few years back. It differs 
from the one in Warren's archives in subtle but significant ways. It 
appears to be a few months earlier than the one at:

http://www.tuhs.org/Archive/Distributions/UCB/4.2BSD/

Case in point, from srcsys.tar:

diff -r ./GENERIC/vers.c 
/home/krewat/archive/unix/tuhs/4BSD/Distributions/4.2BSD/bin/srcsys/GENERIC/vers.c
1c1
< char version[] = "4.2 BSD UNIX #8: Sun Oct 2 12:03:09 PDT 1983\n";
---
 > char version[] = "4.2 BSD UNIX #9: Wed Nov 2 16:00:29 PST 1983\n";

or from src.tar:

diff -r ./bin/mail.c 
/home/krewat/archive/unix/tuhs/4BSD/Distributions/4.2BSD/bin/src/bin/mail.c
2c2
< static char sccsid[] = "@(#)mail.c    4.18 (Berkeley) 9/9/83";
---
 > static char sccsid[] = "@(#)mail.c    4.21 (Berkeley) 11/1/83";
449,454d448
<                       if (strcmp(my_name, "root") &&
<                           strcmp(my_name, "daemon") &&
<                           strcmp(my_name, "network")) {
<                               usage();
<                               done();
<                       }

(was doing a diff -r of the entire tree)

stand (first file on tape) is the same down to the checksum. But the 
checksum for every other file (tape files, not individual files) on the 
tape is different.

Also weird is that on my distribution, these exist:

< -rwxrwxr-x   0/10       0 Jul 26 16:37 1983 ./ucb/lisp/doc/
< -r--r--r--   0/10    3522 Jul 26 03:08 1983 ./ucb/lisp/doc/lmacs
< -r--r--r--   0/10    5196 Sep 25 21:01 1983 ./ucb/lisp/doc/ch0.n
< -r--r--r--   0/10   13713 Sep 25 21:01 1983 ./ucb/lisp/doc/ch1.n
< -r--r--r--   0/10   42144 Sep 25 21:01 1983 ./ucb/lisp/doc/ch2.n
< -r--r--r--   0/10    9278 Jul 26 03:09 1983 ./ucb/lisp/doc/ch3.n
< -r--r--r--   0/10   34324 Sep 25 21:01 1983 ./ucb/lisp/doc/ch4.n
< -r--r--r--   0/10   18913 Jul 26 03:10 1983 ./ucb/lisp/doc/ch5.n
< -r--r--r--   0/10   21543 Sep 25 21:01 1983 ./ucb/lisp/doc/ch6.n
< -r--r--r--   0/10     162 Jul 26 03:10 1983 ./ucb/lisp/doc/ch61.n
< -r--r--r--   0/10   19093 Jul 26 03:10 1983 ./ucb/lisp/doc/ch7.n
< -r--r--r--   0/10   26713 Sep 25 21:01 1983 ./ucb/lisp/doc/ch8.n
< -r--r--r--   0/10   12914 Jul 26 03:11 1983 ./ucb/lisp/doc/ch9.n
< -r--r--r--   0/10    8107 Jul 26 03:11 1983 ./ucb/lisp/doc/ch10.n
< -r--r--r--   0/10    8694 Sep 25 21:01 1983 ./ucb/lisp/doc/ch11.n
< -r--r--r--   0/10   22170 Jul 26 03:12 1983 ./ucb/lisp/doc/ch12.n
< -r--r--r--   0/10   11453 Jul 26 03:12 1983 ./ucb/lisp/doc/ch13.n
< -r--r--r--   0/10    6678 Jul 26 03:12 1983 ./ucb/lisp/doc/ch14.n
< -r--r--r--   0/10    6368 Jul 26 03:12 1983 ./ucb/lisp/doc/ch15.n
< -r--r--r--   0/10   36465 Jul 26 03:13 1983 ./ucb/lisp/doc/ch16.n
< -r--r--r--   0/10    6301 Jul 26 03:13 1983 ./ucb/lisp/doc/chb.n
< -r--r--r--   0/10    4364 Jul 26 03:13 1983 ./ucb/lisp/doc/chc.n
< -r--r--r--   0/10    5700 Jul 26 03:13 1983 ./ucb/lisp/doc/Makefile
< -r--r--r--   0/10      12 Jul 26 03:13 1983 ./ucb/lisp/doc/indexsed
< -r--r--r--   0/10      98 Jul 26 03:13 1983 ./ucb/lisp/doc/mantags
< -r--r--r--   0/10     166 Jul 26 03:13 1983 ./ucb/lisp/doc/extrnames.awk
< -r--r--r--   0/10      94 Jul 26 03:13 1983 ./ucb/lisp/doc/fixmks.sed
< -r--r--r--   0/10   57142 Jul 26 03:14 1983 ./ucb/lisp/doc/franz.n

But in the TUHS version, ./usb/lisp/doc is linked to /usr/doc/lisp - 
which doesn't seem to exist.

These are just examples of what I see and not the only differences.




From reed at reedmedia.net  Thu Apr 13 04:37:24 2017
From: reed at reedmedia.net (Jeremy C. Reed)
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2017 13:37:24 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [TUHS] BSD 4.2 distribution differences
In-Reply-To: <ae3ddeea-db2c-69ad-66cf-53841f1a869d@kilonet.net>
References: <ae3ddeea-db2c-69ad-66cf-53841f1a869d@kilonet.net>
Message-ID: <alpine.NEB.2.20.1704121329170.8522@t1.m.reedmedia.net>

On Wed, 12 Apr 2017, Arthur Krewat wrote:

> diff -r ./GENERIC/vers.c
> /home/krewat/archive/unix/tuhs/4BSD/Distributions/4.2BSD/bin/srcsys/GENERIC/vers.c
> 1c1
> < char version[] = "4.2 BSD UNIX #8: Sun Oct 2 12:03:09 PDT 1983\n";
> ---
> > char version[] = "4.2 BSD UNIX #9: Wed Nov 2 16:00:29 PST 1983\n";
> 
> or from src.tar:
> 
> diff -r ./bin/mail.c
> /home/krewat/archive/unix/tuhs/4BSD/Distributions/4.2BSD/bin/src/bin/mail.c
> 2c2
> < static char sccsid[] = "@(#)mail.c    4.18 (Berkeley) 9/9/83";
> ---
> > static char sccsid[] = "@(#)mail.c    4.21 (Berkeley) 11/1/83";

By the way, the CSRG archives CD set's 4.1c.2 and 4.1c.1 version is:

static char SccsId[] = "@(#)mail.c      4.13    2/9/83";

> But in the TUHS version, ./usb/lisp/doc is linked to /usr/doc/lisp - 
> which doesn't seem to exist.

>From the quick look of the copies I have including from the CSRG 
archives I purchased, I assume the TUHS version is the same as the CSRG 
archives.

Will you make your copy of the files available?


From krewat at kilonet.net  Thu Apr 13 05:10:00 2017
From: krewat at kilonet.net (Arthur Krewat)
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2017 15:10:00 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] BSD 4.2 distribution differences
In-Reply-To: <alpine.NEB.2.20.1704121329170.8522@t1.m.reedmedia.net>
References: <ae3ddeea-db2c-69ad-66cf-53841f1a869d@kilonet.net>
 <alpine.NEB.2.20.1704121329170.8522@t1.m.reedmedia.net>
Message-ID: <4004e165-88da-5ec4-7502-f18a381a9fac@kilonet.net>



On 4/12/2017 2:37 PM, Jeremy C. Reed wrote:
>
>  From the quick look of the copies I have including from the CSRG
> archives I purchased, I assume the TUHS version is the same as the CSRG
> archives.
>
> Will you make your copy of the files available?
>

Absolutely! As soon as I determine without a doubt that it contains 
nothing proprietary.




From b4 at gewt.net  Thu Apr 13 07:54:16 2017
From: b4 at gewt.net (Cory Smelosky)
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2017 14:54:16 -0700
Subject: [TUHS] SunOS 4 documentation
Message-ID: <1492034056.640146.943005264.77830DD6@webmail.messagingengine.com>

All,

Does anyone have SunOS 4 documentation?

I am trying to properly configure UUCP and I am unable to find proper
documentation.

-- 
  Cory Smelosky
  b4 at gewt.net


From b4 at gewt.net  Thu Apr 13 08:55:30 2017
From: b4 at gewt.net (Cory Smelosky)
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2017 15:55:30 -0700
Subject: [TUHS] SunOS 4 documentation
In-Reply-To: <1492034056.640146.943005264.77830DD6@webmail.messagingengine.com>
References: <1492034056.640146.943005264.77830DD6@webmail.messagingengine.com>
Message-ID: <1492037730.652251.943052704.39811DAC@webmail.messagingengine.com>

Found it.

http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/sun/sunos/4.1/800-3805-10A_System_and_Network_Administration_199003.pdf

On Wed, Apr 12, 2017, at 14:54, Cory Smelosky wrote:
> All,
> 
> Does anyone have SunOS 4 documentation?
> 
> I am trying to properly configure UUCP and I am unable to find proper
> documentation.
> 
> -- 
>   Cory Smelosky
>   b4 at gewt.net


-- 
  Cory Smelosky
  b4 at gewt.net


From lm at mcvoy.com  Thu Apr 13 09:31:58 2017
From: lm at mcvoy.com (Larry McVoy)
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2017 16:31:58 -0700
Subject: [TUHS] SunOS 4 documentation
In-Reply-To: <1492037730.652251.943052704.39811DAC@webmail.messagingengine.com>
References: <1492034056.640146.943005264.77830DD6@webmail.messagingengine.com>
 <1492037730.652251.943052704.39811DAC@webmail.messagingengine.com>
Message-ID: <20170412233158.GB14143@mcvoy.com>

All done in troff I believe.  Though not for long, I think they switched 
to framemaker around then.

Whoops, I'm wrong, I looked, that's clearly framemaker.  Sigh.  I love me
some troff, even to this day.  I really really really wish that someone 
had done framemaker, word, whatever, that was the GUI interface that had
troff under the covers.  Why?  Because you can version control the source
and diffs will actually make sense.  Best of luck doing that with any
GUI editor.

On Wed, Apr 12, 2017 at 03:55:30PM -0700, Cory Smelosky wrote:
> Found it.
> 
> http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/sun/sunos/4.1/800-3805-10A_System_and_Network_Administration_199003.pdf
> 
> On Wed, Apr 12, 2017, at 14:54, Cory Smelosky wrote:
> > All,
> > 
> > Does anyone have SunOS 4 documentation?
> > 
> > I am trying to properly configure UUCP and I am unable to find proper
> > documentation.
> > 
> > -- 
> >   Cory Smelosky
> >   b4 at gewt.net
> 
> 
> -- 
>   Cory Smelosky
>   b4 at gewt.net

-- 
---
Larry McVoy            	     lm at mcvoy.com             http://www.mcvoy.com/lm 


From toby at telegraphics.com.au  Thu Apr 13 12:13:33 2017
From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain)
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2017 22:13:33 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] SunOS 4 documentation
In-Reply-To: <20170412233158.GB14143@mcvoy.com>
References: <1492034056.640146.943005264.77830DD6@webmail.messagingengine.com>
 <1492037730.652251.943052704.39811DAC@webmail.messagingengine.com>
 <20170412233158.GB14143@mcvoy.com>
Message-ID: <08eb864b-784b-28e5-63b3-420cfbc5f684@telegraphics.com.au>

On 2017-04-12 7:31 PM, Larry McVoy wrote:
> All done in troff I believe.  Though not for long, I think they switched
> to framemaker around then.
>
> Whoops, I'm wrong, I looked, that's clearly framemaker.  Sigh.  I love me
> some troff, even to this day.  I really really really wish that someone
> had done framemaker, word, whatever, that was the GUI interface that had
> troff under the covers.  Why?  Because you can version control the source

You can get really really close to that dream with TeX based tools like 
LyX, etc (and indeed Blue Sky Research had a wysiwyg TeX system back in 
the late 1980s).

While troff can get stuff done in its area, for heavy duty work and 
exacting typography, TeX's markup blows troff out of the water, I am afraid.

--Toby
(typesetter/typographer/TeX porter)

> and diffs will actually make sense.  Best of luck doing that with any
> GUI editor.
>
> On Wed, Apr 12, 2017 at 03:55:30PM -0700, Cory Smelosky wrote:
>> Found it.
>>
>> http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/sun/sunos/4.1/800-3805-10A_System_and_Network_Administration_199003.pdf
>>
>> On Wed, Apr 12, 2017, at 14:54, Cory Smelosky wrote:
>>> All,
>>>
>>> Does anyone have SunOS 4 documentation?
>>>
>>> I am trying to properly configure UUCP and I am unable to find proper
>>> documentation.
>>>
>>> --
>>>   Cory Smelosky
>>>   b4 at gewt.net
>>
>>
>> --
>>   Cory Smelosky
>>   b4 at gewt.net
>



From usotsuki at buric.co  Thu Apr 13 12:16:57 2017
From: usotsuki at buric.co (Steve Nickolas)
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2017 22:16:57 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [TUHS] SunOS 4 documentation
In-Reply-To: <08eb864b-784b-28e5-63b3-420cfbc5f684@telegraphics.com.au>
References: <1492034056.640146.943005264.77830DD6@webmail.messagingengine.com>
 <1492037730.652251.943052704.39811DAC@webmail.messagingengine.com>
 <20170412233158.GB14143@mcvoy.com>
 <08eb864b-784b-28e5-63b3-420cfbc5f684@telegraphics.com.au>
Message-ID: <alpine.BSF.2.02.1704122216110.92631@frieza.hoshinet.org>

On Wed, 12 Apr 2017, Toby Thain wrote:

> You can get really really close to that dream with TeX based tools like LyX, 
> etc (and indeed Blue Sky Research had a wysiwyg TeX system back in the late 
> 1980s).
>
> While troff can get stuff done in its area, for heavy duty work and exacting 
> typography, TeX's markup blows troff out of the water, I am afraid.

Heh, yeah. I'd defy anyone to typeset a Bible with troff, but I did it 
reasonably well with XeLaTeX.

-uso.


From lm at mcvoy.com  Thu Apr 13 12:20:29 2017
From: lm at mcvoy.com (Larry McVoy)
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2017 19:20:29 -0700
Subject: [TUHS] SunOS 4 documentation
In-Reply-To: <08eb864b-784b-28e5-63b3-420cfbc5f684@telegraphics.com.au>
References: <1492034056.640146.943005264.77830DD6@webmail.messagingengine.com>
 <1492037730.652251.943052704.39811DAC@webmail.messagingengine.com>
 <20170412233158.GB14143@mcvoy.com>
 <08eb864b-784b-28e5-63b3-420cfbc5f684@telegraphics.com.au>
Message-ID: <20170413022029.GM14143@mcvoy.com>

On Wed, Apr 12, 2017 at 10:13:33PM -0400, Toby Thain wrote:
> On 2017-04-12 7:31 PM, Larry McVoy wrote:
> >All done in troff I believe.  Though not for long, I think they switched
> >to framemaker around then.
> >
> >Whoops, I'm wrong, I looked, that's clearly framemaker.  Sigh.  I love me
> >some troff, even to this day.  I really really really wish that someone
> >had done framemaker, word, whatever, that was the GUI interface that had
> >troff under the covers.  Why?  Because you can version control the source
> 
> You can get really really close to that dream with TeX based tools like LyX,
> etc (and indeed Blue Sky Research had a wysiwyg TeX system back in the late
> 1980s).

I know, my dad wrote a book with Blue Sky Research's stuff.

> While troff can get stuff done in its area, for heavy duty work and exacting
> typography, TeX's markup blows troff out of the water, I am afraid.

I'd like to learn more about that.  I'd done a ton of stuff in troff,
had to do a paper recently in LaTex and I did not find it at all better.
It was a technical paper, usual stuff, text and tables and figures
and references.  I'm not great at LaTex so maybe it's just my bias
but I really like troff.  In fairness, I like groff, I got James to hack
some stuff into pic for me.  

But it started with troff.  I still remember walking out of the computer
science bookstore with a copy of the troff manual.  That was sort of my
introduction to Unix and it fits.

> --Toby
> (typesetter/typographer/TeX porter)
> 
> >and diffs will actually make sense.  Best of luck doing that with any
> >GUI editor.
> >
> >On Wed, Apr 12, 2017 at 03:55:30PM -0700, Cory Smelosky wrote:
> >>Found it.
> >>
> >>http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/sun/sunos/4.1/800-3805-10A_System_and_Network_Administration_199003.pdf
> >>
> >>On Wed, Apr 12, 2017, at 14:54, Cory Smelosky wrote:
> >>>All,
> >>>
> >>>Does anyone have SunOS 4 documentation?
> >>>
> >>>I am trying to properly configure UUCP and I am unable to find proper
> >>>documentation.
> >>>
> >>>--
> >>>  Cory Smelosky
> >>>  b4 at gewt.net
> >>
> >>
> >>--
> >>  Cory Smelosky
> >>  b4 at gewt.net
> >

-- 
---
Larry McVoy            	     lm at mcvoy.com             http://www.mcvoy.com/lm 


From toby at telegraphics.com.au  Thu Apr 13 12:25:02 2017
From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain)
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2017 22:25:02 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] TeX/troff/typesetting markups - Re:  SunOS 4 documentation
In-Reply-To: <alpine.BSF.2.02.1704122216110.92631@frieza.hoshinet.org>
References: <1492034056.640146.943005264.77830DD6@webmail.messagingengine.com>
 <1492037730.652251.943052704.39811DAC@webmail.messagingengine.com>
 <20170412233158.GB14143@mcvoy.com>
 <08eb864b-784b-28e5-63b3-420cfbc5f684@telegraphics.com.au>
 <alpine.BSF.2.02.1704122216110.92631@frieza.hoshinet.org>
Message-ID: <e569f91d-f34a-3ab6-af64-1aec6e704371@telegraphics.com.au>

On 2017-04-12 10:16 PM, Steve Nickolas wrote:
> On Wed, 12 Apr 2017, Toby Thain wrote:
>
>> You can get really really close to that dream with TeX based tools
>> like LyX, etc (and indeed Blue Sky Research had a wysiwyg TeX system
>> back in the late 1980s).
>>
>> While troff can get stuff done in its area, for heavy duty work and
>> exacting typography, TeX's markup blows troff out of the water, I am
>> afraid.
>
> Heh, yeah. I'd defy anyone to typeset a Bible with troff, but I did it
> reasonably well with XeLaTeX.

I did a 400+ page novel in it once. This had a few benefits. One was 
that the same markup could generate double spaced typewriter-style 
printouts for the novelist to bind and scribble his corrections on, 
while at the same time producing the final plate-ready negatives for the 
printer.

Sadly I'm not called much to use it any more but it's a tangible 
pleasure when I do.

(Although I have to say that I don't like CMR much.)

--T

>
> -uso.
>



From johnl at johnlabovitz.com  Thu Apr 13 23:28:12 2017
From: johnl at johnlabovitz.com (John Labovitz)
Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2017 09:28:12 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] SunOS 4 documentation
In-Reply-To: <08eb864b-784b-28e5-63b3-420cfbc5f684@telegraphics.com.au>
References: <1492034056.640146.943005264.77830DD6@webmail.messagingengine.com>
 <1492037730.652251.943052704.39811DAC@webmail.messagingengine.com>
 <20170412233158.GB14143@mcvoy.com>
 <08eb864b-784b-28e5-63b3-420cfbc5f684@telegraphics.com.au>
Message-ID: <7A44F035-601A-40AD-ACC3-E69AEE7A2F6E@johnlabovitz.com>

On 2017-04-12 7:31 PM, Larry McVoy wrote:

> I love me
> some troff, even to this day.  I really really really wish that someone
> had done framemaker, word, whatever, that was the GUI interface that had
> troff under the covers.  Why?  Because you can version control the source


A bit off topic, but…

I’ve been researching modern macOS writing apps over the last few days. I was very surprised to find that almost all of them use Markdown as their primary format — not just for import/export, but as a storage format as well as a user interface. (Examples: Ulysses, Scrivener, ByWord.) It seems that Markdown and text files has become the gold standard in this particular class of app, even for folks who’d never use the command line. Granted, not all those apps expose the documents as normal, version-controllable files, but still, it’s pretty wild to see text formats be accepted again, at least in a narrow class of documentation-related tools.

—John

From steffen at sdaoden.eu  Thu Apr 13 23:41:51 2017
From: steffen at sdaoden.eu (Steffen Nurpmeso)
Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2017 15:41:51 +0200
Subject: [TUHS] SunOS 4 documentation
In-Reply-To: <20170413022029.GM14143@mcvoy.com>
References: <1492034056.640146.943005264.77830DD6@webmail.messagingengine.com>
 <1492037730.652251.943052704.39811DAC@webmail.messagingengine.com>
 <20170412233158.GB14143@mcvoy.com>
 <08eb864b-784b-28e5-63b3-420cfbc5f684@telegraphics.com.au>
 <20170413022029.GM14143@mcvoy.com>
Message-ID: <20170413134151.c2Hvf%steffen@sdaoden.eu>

Larry McVoy <lm at mcvoy.com> wrote:
 |On Wed, Apr 12, 2017 at 10:13:33PM -0400, Toby Thain wrote:
 |> On 2017-04-12 7:31 PM, Larry McVoy wrote:
 |>>All done in troff I believe.  Though not for long, I think they switched
 |>>to framemaker around then.
 |>>
 |>>Whoops, I'm wrong, I looked, that's clearly framemaker.  Sigh.  I love me
 |>>some troff, even to this day.  I really really really wish that someone
 |>>had done framemaker, word, whatever, that was the GUI interface that had
 |>>troff under the covers.  Why?  Because you can version control the source
 |> 
 |> You can get really really close to that dream with TeX based tools \
 |> like LyX,
 |> etc (and indeed Blue Sky Research had a wysiwyg TeX system back in \
 |> the late
 |> 1980s).
 |
 |I know, my dad wrote a book with Blue Sky Research's stuff.
 |
 |> While troff can get stuff done in its area, for heavy duty work and \
 |> exacting
 |> typography, TeX's markup blows troff out of the water, I am afraid.
 |
 |I'd like to learn more about that.  I'd done a ton of stuff in troff,
 |had to do a paper recently in LaTex and I did not find it at all better.
 |It was a technical paper, usual stuff, text and tables and figures
 |and references.  I'm not great at LaTex so maybe it's just my bias
 |but I really like troff.  In fairness, I like groff, I got James to hack
 |some stuff into pic for me.  
 |
 |But it started with troff.  I still remember walking out of the computer
 |science bookstore with a copy of the troff manual.  That was sort of my
 |introduction to Unix and it fits.

To me that was the german translation of ISO C, by Prof. Dr. A.-T.
Schreiner and Dr. Ernst Janich, "set in pic (by Kernighan), tbl (by
Lesk), eqn (by Kernighan and Cherry), a XENIC-fit device-
independent troff by ELAN".  Except for being afraid the wonderful
introduction could, possibly and maybe, today have been
collaborated in Google Doc, i also adore roff.

I came via (La, then) TeX and a package i have written myself, and
of which i was very proud, and because i could be.  Unfortunately
this has been lost, in major parts.  I came to roff myself because
of this apocalypse -- you know, i come from C64, DOS, Windows,
HTML, Javascript and perl, over the German (for me: ex-) magazine
c't to Linux, JAVA, C++, x86 Assembler and then C, which is likely
and maybe unfortunately so completely different to all of you, and
during the JAVA time i bought the TeX book, the c't has had
articles about TeX, quite often so, so i knew about it.  (I tried
lout for a short time, first, but it was not flexible enough.)
Unfortunately roff has had no promoters in Germany at all, in
anything i read.

Roff has weaknesses due to its by-line layout mode, compared to
TeX's by-paragraph and even by-page (visible white) one.  (Note
i have no idea of what happened on the TeX side in the last, say,
about 15 years.  TeXLive has always been too large for me, i have
the KerTeX basics laying around since a few years, just in case
i ever find time to come back to TeX.)  This can be a problem for
quick use cases that do not allow proper reviews and fine-tuning,
the latter sometimes down to the paragraph level, dependent on the
material.  In TeX this can be tuned more easily with conservative
values and looking out for "overfull boxes" (iirc), if such occur
at all, then.

My finding is that, with groff, i can produce papers (mostly
letters) of almost identical beauty with some fine-tuning, with
almost the identical number of "markup" (which is now also easily
typed with the american keyboard).  And the fine-tuning i like,
because i adore the calligraphic as an art, as an act of devotion
of the calligrapher, to some higher spirit or the being as such,
and spending some seconds in some text is my simple Boche
equivalence to those fine spirits.

--steffen


From krewat at kilonet.net  Fri Apr 14 00:00:33 2017
From: krewat at kilonet.net (Arthur Krewat)
Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2017 10:00:33 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] BSD 4.2 distribution differences
In-Reply-To: <4004e165-88da-5ec4-7502-f18a381a9fac@kilonet.net>
References: <ae3ddeea-db2c-69ad-66cf-53841f1a869d@kilonet.net>
 <alpine.NEB.2.20.1704121329170.8522@t1.m.reedmedia.net>
 <4004e165-88da-5ec4-7502-f18a381a9fac@kilonet.net>
Message-ID: <5cbaca48-e04f-5640-50be-b654f5bb0fef@kilonet.net>

Question: In BSD-land, how do you "version" something like this? Two 
different "snapshots" of BSD 4.2 - what file/version #/whatever is used 
to definitely put a "version number" on this?

FYI, the distribution I have, vfont.tar is truncated, it was the last 
file on the first tape, and at the time may have had a read error. 
4,372,480 bytes of it were read, while the TUHS version is 5,888,000

However, the part that I have which is about 80% of the tar matches the 
first 74% of the TUHS 4.2BSD distribution after extracting the files, 
even though the checksum of that first 74% doesn't match.

So when I cobble this together, I'll just use the TUHS 4.2BSD vfont.tar 
and make a note of it in the index.




On 4/12/2017 3:10 PM, Arthur Krewat wrote:
>
>
> On 4/12/2017 2:37 PM, Jeremy C. Reed wrote:
>>
>>  From the quick look of the copies I have including from the CSRG
>> archives I purchased, I assume the TUHS version is the same as the CSRG
>> archives.
>>
>> Will you make your copy of the files available?
>>
>
> Absolutely! As soon as I determine without a doubt that it contains 
> nothing proprietary.
>
>
>



From krewat at kilonet.net  Fri Apr 14 00:10:08 2017
From: krewat at kilonet.net (Arthur Krewat)
Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2017 10:10:08 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] BSD 4.2 distribution differences
In-Reply-To: <5cbaca48-e04f-5640-50be-b654f5bb0fef@kilonet.net>
References: <ae3ddeea-db2c-69ad-66cf-53841f1a869d@kilonet.net>
 <alpine.NEB.2.20.1704121329170.8522@t1.m.reedmedia.net>
 <4004e165-88da-5ec4-7502-f18a381a9fac@kilonet.net>
 <5cbaca48-e04f-5640-50be-b654f5bb0fef@kilonet.net>
Message-ID: <0f4ebaff-8c4e-4e2b-a9fb-b228fea408dc@kilonet.net>

This should read:

However, the part that I have which is about 74% of the tar matches the 
same 74% of the TUHS 4.2BSD distribution after extracting the files, 
even though the checksum of that first 74% doesn't match.


On 4/13/2017 10:00 AM, Arthur Krewat wrote:
> However, the part that I have which is about 80% of the tar matches 
> the first 74% of the TUHS 4.2BSD distribution after extracting the 
> files, even though the checksum of that first 74% doesn't match.



From cym224 at gmail.com  Fri Apr 14 00:14:08 2017
From: cym224 at gmail.com (Nemo)
Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2017 10:14:08 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] SunOS 4 documentation
In-Reply-To: <20170413022029.GM14143@mcvoy.com>
References: <1492034056.640146.943005264.77830DD6@webmail.messagingengine.com>
 <1492037730.652251.943052704.39811DAC@webmail.messagingengine.com>
 <20170412233158.GB14143@mcvoy.com>
 <08eb864b-784b-28e5-63b3-420cfbc5f684@telegraphics.com.au>
 <20170413022029.GM14143@mcvoy.com>
Message-ID: <CAJfiPzwcGNPYkGaMaU6Cav7HkTERE=_MCzZ16pQAPOEjOGEq9w@mail.gmail.com>

On 12 April 2017 at 22:20, Larry McVoy <lm at mcvoy.com> wrote:
[...]
>> While troff can get stuff done in its area, for heavy duty work and exacting
>> typography, TeX's markup blows troff out of the water, I am afraid.
>
> I'd like to learn more about that.  I'd done a ton of stuff in troff,
> had to do a paper recently in LaTex and I did not find it at all better.
> It was a technical paper, usual stuff, text and tables and figures
> and references.  I'm not great at LaTex so maybe it's just my bias
> but I really like troff.  In fairness, I like groff, I got James to hack
> some stuff into pic for me.
>
> But it started with troff.  I still remember walking out of the computer
> science bookstore with a copy of the troff manual.  That was sort of my
> introduction to Unix and it fits.

I started off with troff (on Suns) and then the dep't installed (La)TeX.  I
switched to LaTeX because I was writing math and it looks better in the
latter (as Knuth intended).  I dabbled with TeX but never stuck to it -- too
much like assembler.  Interestingly, the secretarial staff learnt TeX and
the grad students all used LaTeX.

At work, we once used noweb (and xfig and pstex) to document our code.
This was well before doxygen and I think it worked fairly well (despite the
extra steps).

N.


From cym224 at gmail.com  Fri Apr 14 00:25:51 2017
From: cym224 at gmail.com (Nemo)
Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2017 10:25:51 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] TeX/troff/typesetting markups - Re: SunOS 4 documentation
In-Reply-To: <e569f91d-f34a-3ab6-af64-1aec6e704371@telegraphics.com.au>
References: <1492034056.640146.943005264.77830DD6@webmail.messagingengine.com>
 <1492037730.652251.943052704.39811DAC@webmail.messagingengine.com>
 <20170412233158.GB14143@mcvoy.com>
 <08eb864b-784b-28e5-63b3-420cfbc5f684@telegraphics.com.au>
 <alpine.BSF.2.02.1704122216110.92631@frieza.hoshinet.org>
 <e569f91d-f34a-3ab6-af64-1aec6e704371@telegraphics.com.au>
Message-ID: <CAJfiPzwNH3pA-o6YSziYQSHqo9Mee+jxTECkbbkwdVC=bQ3bVQ@mail.gmail.com>

On 12 April 2017 at 22:25, Toby Thain <toby at telegraphics.com.au> wrote
(in part):
[...]
> I did a 400+ page novel in it once.

Tanenbaum wrote all his tomes in troff, praising it in his prefaces,
and it comes
with MacOS (bit of an amusement, that).

N.


From toby at telegraphics.com.au  Fri Apr 14 01:40:09 2017
From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain)
Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2017 11:40:09 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] TeX/troff/typesetting markups - Re:  SunOS 4 documentation
In-Reply-To: <20170413134151.c2Hvf%steffen@sdaoden.eu>
References: <1492034056.640146.943005264.77830DD6@webmail.messagingengine.com>
 <1492037730.652251.943052704.39811DAC@webmail.messagingengine.com>
 <20170412233158.GB14143@mcvoy.com>
 <08eb864b-784b-28e5-63b3-420cfbc5f684@telegraphics.com.au>
 <20170413022029.GM14143@mcvoy.com> <20170413134151.c2Hvf%steffen@sdaoden.eu>
Message-ID: <f4719263-cbbe-f75a-e3ba-3826bec9d8af@telegraphics.com.au>

On 2017-04-13 9:41 AM, Steffen Nurpmeso wrote:
> ...
> i have no idea of what happened on the TeX side in the last, say,
> about 15 years.  TeXLive has always been too large for me, i have

They have a small "basic" version with the essentials, a hundred 
megabytes or so.

http://www.tug.org/mactex/morepackages.html

> the KerTeX basics laying around since a few years, just in case
> i ever find time to come back to TeX.)  This can be a problem for
> quick use cases that do not allow proper reviews and fine-tuning,
> the latter sometimes down to the paragraph level, dependent on the
> material.  In TeX this can be tuned more easily with conservative
> values and looking out for "overfull boxes" (iirc), if such occur
> at all, then.
>
> My finding is that, with groff, i can produce papers (mostly
> letters) of almost identical beauty with some fine-tuning, with
> almost the identical number of "markup" (which is now also easily
> typed with the american keyboard).  And the fine-tuning i like,
> because i adore the calligraphic as an art, as an act of devotion
> of the calligrapher, to some higher spirit or the being as such,
> and spending some seconds in some text is my simple Boche
> equivalence to those fine spirits.

Indeed, as a typographer, I believe details matter, no matter what the 
audience. I think Knuth feels the same way. :)

--Toby


>
> --steffen
>



From andreas.kahari at icm.uu.se  Fri Apr 14 01:41:31 2017
From: andreas.kahari at icm.uu.se (Andreas Kusalananda =?iso-8859-1?B?S+Ro5HJp?=)
Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2017 17:41:31 +0200
Subject: [TUHS] TeX/troff/typesetting markups - Re: SunOS 4 documentation
In-Reply-To: <e569f91d-f34a-3ab6-af64-1aec6e704371@telegraphics.com.au>
References: <1492034056.640146.943005264.77830DD6@webmail.messagingengine.com>
 <1492037730.652251.943052704.39811DAC@webmail.messagingengine.com>
 <20170412233158.GB14143@mcvoy.com>
 <08eb864b-784b-28e5-63b3-420cfbc5f684@telegraphics.com.au>
 <alpine.BSF.2.02.1704122216110.92631@frieza.hoshinet.org>
 <e569f91d-f34a-3ab6-af64-1aec6e704371@telegraphics.com.au>
Message-ID: <20170413154131.o4e6yjbjqpafcz66@box.local>

On Wed, Apr 12, 2017 at 10:25:02PM -0400, Toby Thain wrote:
> On 2017-04-12 10:16 PM, Steve Nickolas wrote:
> > On Wed, 12 Apr 2017, Toby Thain wrote:
> > 
> > > You can get really really close to that dream with TeX based tools
> > > like LyX, etc (and indeed Blue Sky Research had a wysiwyg TeX system
> > > back in the late 1980s).
> > > 
> > > While troff can get stuff done in its area, for heavy duty work and
> > > exacting typography, TeX's markup blows troff out of the water, I am
> > > afraid.
> > 
> > Heh, yeah. I'd defy anyone to typeset a Bible with troff, but I did it
> > reasonably well with XeLaTeX.
> 
> I did a 400+ page novel in it once. This had a few benefits. One was that
> the same markup could generate double spaced typewriter-style printouts for
> the novelist to bind and scribble his corrections on, while at the same time
> producing the final plate-ready negatives for the printer.
> 
> Sadly I'm not called much to use it any more but it's a tangible pleasure
> when I do.
> 
> (Although I have to say that I don't like CMR much.)
> 
> --T


Hi all,

Some years ago, I did part of the proof-reading for the UTP revival
project (UTP = the book "Unix Text Processing", the original sources of
the book were sadly lost) since I happened to own a copy of the book
itself and quite enjoyed using troff for all sorts of things.

If anyone's interested, I believe the final product (PDf and sources)
may be found at

    ftp://ftp.ffii.org/pub/groff/contrib/documentation/utp/


Regards,
Kusalananda (Andreas Kähäri)


From steve at quintile.net  Fri Apr 14 02:34:44 2017
From: steve at quintile.net (Steve Simon)
Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2017 17:34:44 +0100
Subject: [TUHS] SunOS 4 documentation
In-Reply-To: <CAJfiPzwcGNPYkGaMaU6Cav7HkTERE=_MCzZ16pQAPOEjOGEq9w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1492034056.640146.943005264.77830DD6@webmail.messagingengine.com>
 <1492037730.652251.943052704.39811DAC@webmail.messagingengine.com>
 <20170412233158.GB14143@mcvoy.com>
 <08eb864b-784b-28e5-63b3-420cfbc5f684@telegraphics.com.au>
 <20170413022029.GM14143@mcvoy.com>
 <CAJfiPzwcGNPYkGaMaU6Cav7HkTERE=_MCzZ16pQAPOEjOGEq9w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <47E9A616-0D37-45DA-841E-70F229045423@quintile.net>

i haven't tried it in anger but bwk's pm(1) troff post-proscessor, which does paragraph at at a time layout, is available as a plan9 package. written in c++ so early that cfront will compile it.

-Steve


> On 13 Apr 2017, at 15:14, Nemo <cym224 at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> On 12 April 2017 at 22:20, Larry McVoy <lm at mcvoy.com> wrote:
> [..
>>> While troff can get stuff done in its area, for heavy duty work and exacting
>>> typography, TeX's markup blows troff out of the water, I am afraid.
>> 
>> I'd like to learn more about that.  I'd done a ton of stuff in troff,
>> had to do a paper recently in LaTex and I did not find it at all better.
>> It was a technical paper, usual stuff, text and tables and figures
>> and references.  I'm not great at LaTex so maybe it's just my bias
>> but I really like troff.  In fairness, I like groff, I got James to hack
>> some stuff into pic for me.
>> 
>> But it started with troff.  I still remember walking out of the computer
>> science bookstore with a copy of the troff manual.  That was sort of my
>> introduction to Unix and it fits.
> 
> I started off with troff (on Suns) and then the dep't installed (La)TeX.  I
> switched to LaTeX because I was writing math and it looks better in the
> latter (as Knuth intended).  I dabbled with TeX but never stuck to it -- too
> much like assembler.  Interestingly, the secretarial staff learnt TeX and
> the grad students all used LaTeX.
> 
> At work, we once used noweb (and xfig and pstex) to document our code.
> This was well before doxygen and I think it worked fairly well (despite the
> extra steps).
> 
> N.



From toby at telegraphics.com.au  Fri Apr 14 02:35:19 2017
From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain)
Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2017 12:35:19 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] TeX/troff/typesetting markups - Re: SunOS 4 documentation
In-Reply-To: <e569f91d-f34a-3ab6-af64-1aec6e704371@telegraphics.com.au>
References: <1492034056.640146.943005264.77830DD6@webmail.messagingengine.com>
 <1492037730.652251.943052704.39811DAC@webmail.messagingengine.com>
 <20170412233158.GB14143@mcvoy.com>
 <08eb864b-784b-28e5-63b3-420cfbc5f684@telegraphics.com.au>
 <alpine.BSF.2.02.1704122216110.92631@frieza.hoshinet.org>
 <e569f91d-f34a-3ab6-af64-1aec6e704371@telegraphics.com.au>
Message-ID: <4f202ee6-65af-f027-8833-299bc7b0726a@telegraphics.com.au>

On 2017-04-12 10:25 PM, Toby Thain wrote:
> On 2017-04-12 10:16 PM, Steve Nickolas wrote:
>> On Wed, 12 Apr 2017, Toby Thain wrote:
>>
>>> You can get really really close to that dream with TeX based tools
>>> like LyX, etc (and indeed Blue Sky Research had a wysiwyg TeX system
>>> back in the late 1980s).
>>>
>>> While troff can get stuff done in its area, for heavy duty work and
>>> exacting typography, TeX's markup blows troff out of the water, I am
>>> afraid.
>>
>> Heh, yeah. I'd defy anyone to typeset a Bible with troff, but I did it
>> reasonably well with XeLaTeX.
>
> I did a 400+ page novel in it once. This had a few benefits. One was

Since it was a bit unclear from context: I'm referring to TeX here and 
below.

> that the same markup could generate double spaced typewriter-style
> printouts for the novelist to bind and scribble his corrections on,
> while at the same time producing the final plate-ready negatives for the
> printer.
>
> Sadly I'm not called much to use it any more but it's a tangible
> pleasure when I do.
>
> (Although I have to say that I don't like CMR much.)
>
> --T
>
>>
>> -uso.
>>
>
>



From steve.mynott at gmail.com  Fri Apr 14 05:19:11 2017
From: steve.mynott at gmail.com (Steve Mynott)
Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2017 20:19:11 +0100
Subject: [TUHS] UK written UNIX line editor in early 80s?
Message-ID: <CANuZA8S8H-whmzRQnsMufAPoAqPKgZi6nkYGha+-d5RE6nvi1g@mail.gmail.com>

In the autumn of 1984 as an undergrad at Durham University (UK) I
remember using a Pascal compiler (pc) on a BSD4.1 system (bumped after
several months to 4.1c and running I would guess on a small VAX?) and
using a strange line editor (probably because the terminal had crude
screen handling capabilities?).

I can't remember much about it other than it seemed to resemble ex.  I
think I was told it was written in the UK and doing some Googling
suggests it may have been "em" (Editor for Mortals) from Queen Mary
College.

However, the time frame for that editor was late 70s and it would have
been quite old by 1984. So my current theory is that it was a fork
(maybe with a different name) or later version?

Anyone use this editor or anything similar around 1984?

-- 
4096R/EA75174B Steve Mynott <steve.mynott at gmail.com>


From ats at offog.org  Fri Apr 14 06:35:42 2017
From: ats at offog.org (Adam Sampson)
Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2017 21:35:42 +0100
Subject: [TUHS] UK written UNIX line editor in early 80s?
In-Reply-To: <CANuZA8S8H-whmzRQnsMufAPoAqPKgZi6nkYGha+-d5RE6nvi1g@mail.gmail.com>
 (Steve Mynott's message of "Thu, 13 Apr 2017 20:19:11 +0100")
References: <CANuZA8S8H-whmzRQnsMufAPoAqPKgZi6nkYGha+-d5RE6nvi1g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <y2azifkoxk1.fsf@offog.org>

Steve Mynott <steve.mynott at gmail.com> writes:

> In the autumn of 1984 as an undergrad at Durham University [...] a
> strange line editor [...] it seemed to resemble ex.  I think I was
> told it was written in the UK [...]

ECCE, maybe? This originated at Edinburgh in the late 60s and was ported
to all sorts of languages and platforms. See the DCS archive for many
versions (including several Unix ports with mid-80s dates) and manuals:

http://history.dcs.ed.ac.uk/archive/apps/ecce/

-- 
Adam Sampson <ats at offog.org>                         <http://offog.org/>


From rminnich at gmail.com  Fri Apr 14 06:58:32 2017
From: rminnich at gmail.com (ron minnich)
Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2017 20:58:32 +0000
Subject: [TUHS] The Rand Editor
Message-ID: <CAP6exYKpd7Whws54YrC51ZqnVseuDBU8=w0Xa40BjcrK=o-Zkg@mail.gmail.com>

is this code lost or out there somewhere?
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From drb at msu.edu  Fri Apr 14 07:08:31 2017
From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone)
Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2017 17:08:31 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] The Rand Editor
In-Reply-To: (Your message of Thu, 13 Apr 2017 20:58:32 -0000.)
 <CAP6exYKpd7Whws54YrC51ZqnVseuDBU8=w0Xa40BjcrK=o-Zkg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAP6exYKpd7Whws54YrC51ZqnVseuDBU8=w0Xa40BjcrK=o-Zkg@mail.gmail.com> 
Message-ID: <20170413210831.977C8A584E7@yagi.h-net.msu.edu>

 > is this code lost or out there somewhere?

I found it at one point and fiddled with it a bit.  I think it came from
here:

http://bitsavers.org/bits/Rand/

De


From alec.muffett at gmail.com  Fri Apr 14 07:31:05 2017
From: alec.muffett at gmail.com (Alec Muffett)
Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2017 22:31:05 +0100
Subject: [TUHS] UK written UNIX line editor in early 80s?
In-Reply-To: <y2azifkoxk1.fsf@offog.org>
References: <CANuZA8S8H-whmzRQnsMufAPoAqPKgZi6nkYGha+-d5RE6nvi1g@mail.gmail.com>
 <y2azifkoxk1.fsf@offog.org>
Message-ID: <CAFWeb9JxA_AB-rp7yNsF8yaHSw5L5iNChkomDGUjAkqWOXfOBA@mail.gmail.com>

On 13 April 2017 at 21:35, Adam Sampson <ats at offog.org> wrote:

> Steve Mynott <steve.mynott at gmail.com> writes:
>
> > In the autumn of 1984 as an undergrad at Durham University [...] a
> > strange line editor [...] it seemed to resemble ex.  I think I was
> > told it was written in the UK [...]
>
> ECCE, maybe? This originated at Edinburgh in the late 60s and was ported
> to all sorts of languages and platforms. See the DCS archive for many
> versions (including several Unix ports with mid-80s dates) and manuals:
>

I vaguely remember hearing of ecce, I think; however many British
universities in the 1980s that I knew (largely from the student-hacker
community) ran the children of an editor called GEORGE descended from an
old ICL operating system:

- http://www.icl1900.co.uk/g3/editor.html (user doc)
- http://sw.ccs.bcs.org/CCs/g3/LeedsDoc/sect-e.htm (manual)
- http://sw.ccs.bcs.org/CCs/g3/ (source)

The variant at UCL was called "gedit" and hosted on OS/4000 (
https://dropsafe.crypticide.com/article/3197)

The variant at Aberystwyth was called "ge" and hosted on GECOS-3 and
various Unixen

There were many others; having infected (?) the UK community in the 1970s
(?) it became a favourite.

    -a

ps: as a friend likes to point out, OS/4000, as a B2-secure (ha)
military-grade operating system, had some fabulous syntax. The equivalent
to Unix's "rm -rf ~" would be:

  "FCOPY USER SINK TRACE DESTROY"

...which basically implemented a recursive "mv" to /dev/null, directories
included.

-- 
http://dropsafe.crypticide.com/aboutalecm
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From alec.muffett at gmail.com  Fri Apr 14 07:35:34 2017
From: alec.muffett at gmail.com (Alec Muffett)
Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2017 22:35:34 +0100
Subject: [TUHS] UK written UNIX line editor in early 80s?
In-Reply-To: <CAFWeb9JxA_AB-rp7yNsF8yaHSw5L5iNChkomDGUjAkqWOXfOBA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANuZA8S8H-whmzRQnsMufAPoAqPKgZi6nkYGha+-d5RE6nvi1g@mail.gmail.com>
 <y2azifkoxk1.fsf@offog.org>
 <CAFWeb9JxA_AB-rp7yNsF8yaHSw5L5iNChkomDGUjAkqWOXfOBA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAFWeb9+74vZgmMUHJeQquL5WM3VvR2O0xd_V1vEdMPqBpjCFYQ@mail.gmail.com>

excuse the typo, that should be GCOS-3, though the unix relationship is
obvious.
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From wkt at tuhs.org  Fri Apr 14 07:46:46 2017
From: wkt at tuhs.org (Warren Toomey)
Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2017 07:46:46 +1000
Subject: [TUHS] UK written UNIX line editor in early 80s?
In-Reply-To: <CANuZA8S8H-whmzRQnsMufAPoAqPKgZi6nkYGha+-d5RE6nvi1g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANuZA8S8H-whmzRQnsMufAPoAqPKgZi6nkYGha+-d5RE6nvi1g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <B0142AF7-26B3-4B95-B7C7-2CB0521F3F78@tuhs.org>

http://www.tuhs.org/Archive/Applications/Em_Editor/

Out of range, back soon. Warren
-- 
Sent from my Android phone with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
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From khm at sciops.net  Fri Apr 14 07:51:07 2017
From: khm at sciops.net (Kurt H Maier)
Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2017 14:51:07 -0700
Subject: [TUHS] The Rand Editor
In-Reply-To: <CAP6exYKpd7Whws54YrC51ZqnVseuDBU8=w0Xa40BjcrK=o-Zkg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAP6exYKpd7Whws54YrC51ZqnVseuDBU8=w0Xa40BjcrK=o-Zkg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20170413215107.GA19446@wopr>

On Thu, Apr 13, 2017 at 08:58:32PM +0000, ron minnich wrote:
> is this code lost or out there somewhere?

Until recently it was even being maintained, by someone at CERN.
Someone's got a mirror of the code here:

https://github.com/avacariu/rand-e19

For many years I used stabie's from-memory reimplementation, as it's by
far the lightest visual-interface editor I could find for unix:

http://www.stabie-soft.com/sre/re.html

For completeness, the former; for daily use, I prefer the latter.

khm


From chneukirchen at gmail.com  Fri Apr 14 08:07:31 2017
From: chneukirchen at gmail.com (Christian Neukirchen)
Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2017 00:07:31 +0200
Subject: [TUHS] The QED editor, and its modern versions
Message-ID: <87k26o0xng.fsf@gmail.com>


While we are on the topic of old Unix editors,
I once made Caltech qed build again:
https://github.com/chneukirchen/qed-caltech

Also, I've been trying to contact David Tilbrook, who maintains(-ed?)
his own version of qed, without success.  I got an evaluation copy of
his QEF build system, which contains a bit of documentation about it,
but no binary.

Perhaps someone here can help out, or knows more?

-- 
Christian Neukirchen  <chneukirchen at gmail.com>  http://chneukirchen.org


From mutiny.mutiny at rediffmail.com  Fri Apr 14 07:24:58 2017
From: mutiny.mutiny at rediffmail.com (Mutiny )
Date: 13 Apr 2017 21:24:58 -0000
Subject: [TUHS] =?utf-8?q?The_Rand_Editor?=
In-Reply-To: <CAP6exYKpd7Whws54YrC51ZqnVseuDBU8=w0Xa40BjcrK=o-Zkg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1492117139.S.4641.21568.f4-234-160.1492118698.17155@webmail.rediffmail.com>

https://github.com/blakemcbride/Rand-E-Editorhttp://www.stabie-soft.com/sre/re.htmlwww.stabie-soft.com/sre/sre_editor.tazFrom: ron minnich &lt;rminnich at gmail.com&gt;Sent: Fri, 14 Apr 2017 02:28:59To: TUHS main list &lt;tuhs at minnie.tuhs.org&gt;Subject: [TUHS] The Rand Editor&nbsp;is this code lost or out there somewhere?
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From steve at quintile.net  Fri Apr 14 09:07:28 2017
From: steve at quintile.net (Steve Simon)
Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2017 00:07:28 +0100
Subject: [TUHS] editors passim
Message-ID: <CE806713-A785-492E-8BC7-8CEBA55004EB@quintile.net>


Another one i would be interested to know more of.

whilst at college i used an inter data 3210 running edition 7, which was version 7 with bits of 2.1 bsd (very much from memory).

there was an editor on that machine i have never seen or heard of since - le.  it was a visual editor, and i think supported multiple windows, of termcap style.

anyone know more?

-Steve




From steffen at sdaoden.eu  Fri Apr 14 09:14:02 2017
From: steffen at sdaoden.eu (Steffen Nurpmeso)
Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2017 01:14:02 +0200
Subject: [TUHS] SunOS 4 documentation
In-Reply-To: <47E9A616-0D37-45DA-841E-70F229045423@quintile.net>
References: <1492034056.640146.943005264.77830DD6@webmail.messagingengine.com>
 <1492037730.652251.943052704.39811DAC@webmail.messagingengine.com>
 <20170412233158.GB14143@mcvoy.com>
 <08eb864b-784b-28e5-63b3-420cfbc5f684@telegraphics.com.au>
 <20170413022029.GM14143@mcvoy.com>
 <CAJfiPzwcGNPYkGaMaU6Cav7HkTERE=_MCzZ16pQAPOEjOGEq9w@mail.gmail.com>
 <47E9A616-0D37-45DA-841E-70F229045423@quintile.net>
Message-ID: <20170413231402.Qdkpd%steffen@sdaoden.eu>

Steve Simon <steve at quintile.net> wrote:
 |i haven't tried it in anger but bwk's pm(1) troff post-proscessor, \
 |which does paragraph at at a time layout, is available as a plan9 package. \
 |written in c++ so early that cfront will compile it.

I cannot find this?  I only found occurrences of the macro
package, which seems to adjust some -ms macro for better vertical
stretching and widow avoidance?  Also nice, but not a generic
approach.

--steffen


From steffen at sdaoden.eu  Fri Apr 14 09:22:59 2017
From: steffen at sdaoden.eu (Steffen Nurpmeso)
Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2017 01:22:59 +0200
Subject: [TUHS] TeX/troff/typesetting markups - Re: SunOS 4 documentation
In-Reply-To: <f4719263-cbbe-f75a-e3ba-3826bec9d8af@telegraphics.com.au>
References: <1492034056.640146.943005264.77830DD6@webmail.messagingengine.com>
 <1492037730.652251.943052704.39811DAC@webmail.messagingengine.com>
 <20170412233158.GB14143@mcvoy.com>
 <08eb864b-784b-28e5-63b3-420cfbc5f684@telegraphics.com.au>
 <20170413022029.GM14143@mcvoy.com> <20170413134151.c2Hvf%steffen@sdaoden.eu>
 <f4719263-cbbe-f75a-e3ba-3826bec9d8af@telegraphics.com.au>
Message-ID: <20170413232259.53GdF%steffen@sdaoden.eu>

Toby Thain <toby at telegraphics.com.au> wrote:
 |On 2017-04-13 9:41 AM, Steffen Nurpmeso wrote:
 |> ...
 |> i have no idea of what happened on the TeX side in the last, say,
 |> about 15 years.  TeXLive has always been too large for me, i have
 |
 |They have a small "basic" version with the essentials, a hundred 
 |megabytes or so.
 |
 |http://www.tug.org/mactex/morepackages.html

Oh, ok, now MacTeX basic, 110 MB.  That is really much, much
better, for me, that is.  I never used TeX since then, so i cannot
really tell -- my KerTeX repo ball is 11 MB..

  ...
 |> My finding is that, with groff, i can produce papers (mostly
 |> letters) of almost identical beauty with some fine-tuning, with
 |> almost the identical number of "markup" (which is now also easily
 |> typed with the american keyboard).  And the fine-tuning i like,
 |> because i adore the calligraphic as an art, as an act of devotion
 |> of the calligrapher, to some higher spirit or the being as such,
 |> and spending some seconds in some text is my simple Boche
 |> equivalence to those fine spirits.
 |
 |Indeed, as a typographer, I believe details matter, no matter what the 
 |audience. I think Knuth feels the same way. :)

It is really perfectly looking.  Maybe too perfect, in the
sense of, maybe even aseptic.  At least when having handmade,
artistic calligraphy as a personal optimum.  But this is of course
strange for business letters, and doesn't excuse irregular holes
in between words all over the page, as can be seen in
non-optimized roff.

--steffen


From grog at lemis.com  Fri Apr 14 10:40:48 2017
From: grog at lemis.com (Greg 'groggy' Lehey)
Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2017 10:40:48 +1000
Subject: [TUHS] TeX/troff/typesetting markups - Re: SunOS 4 documentation
In-Reply-To: <20170413232259.53GdF%steffen@sdaoden.eu>
References: <1492034056.640146.943005264.77830DD6@webmail.messagingengine.com>
 <1492037730.652251.943052704.39811DAC@webmail.messagingengine.com>
 <20170412233158.GB14143@mcvoy.com>
 <08eb864b-784b-28e5-63b3-420cfbc5f684@telegraphics.com.au>
 <20170413022029.GM14143@mcvoy.com>
 <20170413134151.c2Hvf%steffen@sdaoden.eu>
 <f4719263-cbbe-f75a-e3ba-3826bec9d8af@telegraphics.com.au>
 <20170413232259.53GdF%steffen@sdaoden.eu>
Message-ID: <20170414004048.GC28292@eureka.lemis.com>

On Friday, 14 April 2017 at  1:22:59 +0200, Steffen Nurpmeso wrote:
> Toby Thain <toby at telegraphics.com.au> wrote:
>
>> Indeed, as a typographer, I believe details matter, no matter what the
>> audience. I think Knuth feels the same way. :)
>
> It is really perfectly looking.  Maybe too perfect, in the
> sense of, maybe even aseptic.

My issue with TeX output using standard parameters is that it reaches
out, grabs you by the throat and says "I was formatted with Tex".
That would be mainly the Computer Modern fonts, but I haven't seen
that with any other text formatting software.

Greg
--
Sent from my desktop computer.
Finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key.
See complete headers for address and phone numbers.
This message is digitally signed.  If your Microsoft mail program
reports problems, please read http://lemis.com/broken-MUA
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From cym224 at gmail.com  Fri Apr 14 11:59:44 2017
From: cym224 at gmail.com (Nemo)
Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2017 21:59:44 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] TeX/troff/typesetting markups - Re: SunOS 4 documentation
In-Reply-To: <20170414004048.GC28292@eureka.lemis.com>
References: <1492034056.640146.943005264.77830DD6@webmail.messagingengine.com>
 <1492037730.652251.943052704.39811DAC@webmail.messagingengine.com>
 <20170412233158.GB14143@mcvoy.com>
 <08eb864b-784b-28e5-63b3-420cfbc5f684@telegraphics.com.au>
 <20170413022029.GM14143@mcvoy.com> <20170413134151.c2Hvf%steffen@sdaoden.eu>
 <f4719263-cbbe-f75a-e3ba-3826bec9d8af@telegraphics.com.au>
 <20170413232259.53GdF%steffen@sdaoden.eu>
 <20170414004048.GC28292@eureka.lemis.com>
Message-ID: <CAJfiPzxZneB1gHn5C+sOpvm5-+t68-H5-mrznS0VrWVrOjP30w@mail.gmail.com>

On 13 April 2017 at 20:40, Greg 'groggy' Lehey <grog at lemis.com> wrote:
> My issue with TeX output using standard parameters is that it reaches
> out, grabs you by the throat and says "I was formatted with Tex".
> That would be mainly the Computer Modern fonts, but I haven't seen
> that with any other text formatting software.

You do have your choice of fonts. (I prefer palatino for text and euler for
math.  I haven't used cm fonts in decades.)

N.


From toby at telegraphics.com.au  Fri Apr 14 12:59:33 2017
From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain)
Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2017 22:59:33 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] TeX/troff/typesetting markups - Re: SunOS 4 documentation
In-Reply-To: <20170414004048.GC28292@eureka.lemis.com>
References: <1492034056.640146.943005264.77830DD6@webmail.messagingengine.com>
 <1492037730.652251.943052704.39811DAC@webmail.messagingengine.com>
 <20170412233158.GB14143@mcvoy.com>
 <08eb864b-784b-28e5-63b3-420cfbc5f684@telegraphics.com.au>
 <20170413022029.GM14143@mcvoy.com> <20170413134151.c2Hvf%steffen@sdaoden.eu>
 <f4719263-cbbe-f75a-e3ba-3826bec9d8af@telegraphics.com.au>
 <20170413232259.53GdF%steffen@sdaoden.eu>
 <20170414004048.GC28292@eureka.lemis.com>
Message-ID: <d3c60e80-002c-4b02-253f-b5ea27698163@telegraphics.com.au>

On 2017-04-13 8:40 PM, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote:
> On Friday, 14 April 2017 at  1:22:59 +0200, Steffen Nurpmeso wrote:
>> Toby Thain <toby at telegraphics.com.au> wrote:
>>
>>> Indeed, as a typographer, I believe details matter, no matter what the
>>> audience. I think Knuth feels the same way. :)
>>
>> It is really perfectly looking.  Maybe too perfect, in the
>> sense of, maybe even aseptic.
>
> My issue with TeX output using standard parameters is that it reaches
> out, grabs you by the throat and says "I was formatted with Tex".
> That would be mainly the Computer Modern fonts, but I haven't seen
> that with any other text formatting software.

Yes, the font uniformity is unfortunate. Personally I think we're long 
overdue for a replacement default typeface family, or better yet, 
diversity (but the underlying engine I think is fine -- and so does 
Adobe -- it powers InDesign's paragraph composer :)

--T

>
> Greg
> --
> Sent from my desktop computer.
> Finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key.
> See complete headers for address and phone numbers.
> This message is digitally signed.  If your Microsoft mail program
> reports problems, please read http://lemis.com/broken-MUA
>



From toby at telegraphics.com.au  Fri Apr 14 13:00:06 2017
From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain)
Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2017 23:00:06 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] TeX/troff/typesetting markups - Re: SunOS 4 documentation
In-Reply-To: <CAJfiPzxZneB1gHn5C+sOpvm5-+t68-H5-mrznS0VrWVrOjP30w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1492034056.640146.943005264.77830DD6@webmail.messagingengine.com>
 <1492037730.652251.943052704.39811DAC@webmail.messagingengine.com>
 <20170412233158.GB14143@mcvoy.com>
 <08eb864b-784b-28e5-63b3-420cfbc5f684@telegraphics.com.au>
 <20170413022029.GM14143@mcvoy.com> <20170413134151.c2Hvf%steffen@sdaoden.eu>
 <f4719263-cbbe-f75a-e3ba-3826bec9d8af@telegraphics.com.au>
 <20170413232259.53GdF%steffen@sdaoden.eu>
 <20170414004048.GC28292@eureka.lemis.com>
 <CAJfiPzxZneB1gHn5C+sOpvm5-+t68-H5-mrznS0VrWVrOjP30w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <c5fa6509-2358-c70b-8f5f-67589f4ac6b7@telegraphics.com.au>

On 2017-04-13 9:59 PM, Nemo wrote:
> On 13 April 2017 at 20:40, Greg 'groggy' Lehey <grog at lemis.com> wrote:
>> My issue with TeX output using standard parameters is that it reaches
>> out, grabs you by the throat and says "I was formatted with Tex".
>> That would be mainly the Computer Modern fonts, but I haven't seen
>> that with any other text formatting software.
>
> You do have your choice of fonts. (I prefer palatino for text and euler for
> math.  I haven't used cm fonts in decades.)

Yes, but not enough authors avail themselves of this -- and that's 
understandable -- not everyone is sensitive to such things.

--T

>
> N.
>



From steve at quintile.net  Fri Apr 14 18:30:30 2017
From: steve at quintile.net (Steve Simon)
Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2017 09:30:30 +0100
Subject: [TUHS] SunOS 4 documentation
In-Reply-To: <20170413231402.Qdkpd%steffen@sdaoden.eu>
References: <1492034056.640146.943005264.77830DD6@webmail.messagingengine.com>
 <1492037730.652251.943052704.39811DAC@webmail.messagingengine.com>
 <20170412233158.GB14143@mcvoy.com>
 <08eb864b-784b-28e5-63b3-420cfbc5f684@telegraphics.com.au>
 <20170413022029.GM14143@mcvoy.com>
 <CAJfiPzwcGNPYkGaMaU6Cav7HkTERE=_MCzZ16pQAPOEjOGEq9w@mail.gmail.com>
 <47E9A616-0D37-45DA-841E-70F229045423@quintile.net>
 <20170413231402.Qdkpd%steffen@sdaoden.eu>
Message-ID: <8DB3BA27-E216-45AD-AED5-9B21BC9BEE4B@quintile.net>

Hi all.

I apologise for misleading tuhs, pm does not do paragraph at a time formatting; memory is not what it used to be. 

It does have some interesting ideas nonetheless - and I have been inspired to try it again.

The code and macros should be here:
http://plan9.bell-labs.com/sources/contrib/steve/pm.tbz

[I haven't been able to check as i am on holiday]

The paper describing it is here:
https://www.usenix.org/legacy/publications/compsystems/1989/spr_kernighan.pdf

-Steve

> On 14 Apr 2017, at 00:14, Steffen Nurpmeso <steffen at sdaoden.eu> wrote:
> 
> Steve Simon <steve at quintile.net> wrote:
> |i haven't tried it in anger but bwk's pm(1) troff post-proscessor, \
> |which does paragraph at at a time layout, is available as a plan9 package. \
> |written in c++ so early that cfront will compile it.
> 
> I cannot find this?  I only found occurrences of the macro
> package, which seems to adjust some -ms macro for better vertical
> stretching and widow avoidance?  Also nice, but not a generic
> approach.
> 
> --steffen
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From helbig at mailbox.org  Fri Apr 14 23:07:07 2017
From: helbig at mailbox.org (Wolfgang Helbig)
Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2017 15:07:07 +0200
Subject: [TUHS] TeX/troff/typesetting markups - Re: SunOS 4 documentation
In-Reply-To: <f4719263-cbbe-f75a-e3ba-3826bec9d8af@telegraphics.com.au>
References: <1492034056.640146.943005264.77830DD6@webmail.messagingengine.com>
 <1492037730.652251.943052704.39811DAC@webmail.messagingengine.com>
 <20170412233158.GB14143@mcvoy.com>
 <08eb864b-784b-28e5-63b3-420cfbc5f684@telegraphics.com.au>
 <20170413022029.GM14143@mcvoy.com> <20170413134151.c2Hvf%steffen@sdaoden.eu>
 <f4719263-cbbe-f75a-e3ba-3826bec9d8af@telegraphics.com.au>
Message-ID: <4F046561-FFC6-409A-AB4D-E656F8C93E5F@mailbox.org>


> Am 13.04.2017 um 17:40 schrieb Toby Thain <toby at telegraphics.com.au>:
> 
> On 2017-04-13 9:41 AM, Steffen Nurpmeso wrote:
>> ...
>> i have no idea of what happened on the TeX side in the last, say,
>> about 15 years.  TeXLive has always been too large for me, i have
> 
> They have a small "basic" version with the essentials, a hundred megabytes or so.
> 
> http://www.tug.org/mactex/morepackages.html

this one is even smaller, only about 700 kB:
	https://www.ctan.org/tex-archive/systems/unix/tex-gpc

You’ll need the GNU Pascal Compiler to install it. Regrettable, GPC does
not run on current Versions of Mac OS X.

Greetings

Wolfgang Helbig
Stauferstr. 22

71334 Waiblingen






From steffen at sdaoden.eu  Fri Apr 14 23:21:47 2017
From: steffen at sdaoden.eu (Steffen Nurpmeso)
Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2017 15:21:47 +0200
Subject: [TUHS] SunOS 4 documentation
In-Reply-To: <8DB3BA27-E216-45AD-AED5-9B21BC9BEE4B@quintile.net>
References: <1492034056.640146.943005264.77830DD6@webmail.messagingengine.com>
 <1492037730.652251.943052704.39811DAC@webmail.messagingengine.com>
 <20170412233158.GB14143@mcvoy.com>
 <08eb864b-784b-28e5-63b3-420cfbc5f684@telegraphics.com.au>
 <20170413022029.GM14143@mcvoy.com>
 <CAJfiPzwcGNPYkGaMaU6Cav7HkTERE=_MCzZ16pQAPOEjOGEq9w@mail.gmail.com>
 <47E9A616-0D37-45DA-841E-70F229045423@quintile.net>
 <20170413231402.Qdkpd%steffen@sdaoden.eu>
 <8DB3BA27-E216-45AD-AED5-9B21BC9BEE4B@quintile.net>
Message-ID: <20170414132147.MyBaN%steffen@sdaoden.eu>

Steve Simon <steve at quintile.net> wrote:
 |I apologise for misleading tuhs, pm does not do paragraph at a time \
 |formatting; memory is not what it used to be. 
 |
 |It does have some interesting ideas nonetheless - and I have been inspired \
 |to try it again.
 |
 |The code and macros should be here:
 |
 |[1]http://plan9.bell-labs.com/sources/contrib/steve/pm.tbz[/1]

Got it.

 |[I haven't been able to check as i am on holiday]
 |
 |The paper describing it is here:
 |
 |[2]https://www.usenix.org/legacy/publications/compsystems/1989/spr_kernighan\
 |.pdf[/2]

Have and read this, too.  This seems to be very interesting, again
(it is Kernighan).  It will take a long time until i will be able
to truly understand it with all of the context it comes from and
lives in, though.
Thanks for the pointer!

--steffen


From steffen at sdaoden.eu  Fri Apr 14 23:38:04 2017
From: steffen at sdaoden.eu (Steffen Nurpmeso)
Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2017 15:38:04 +0200
Subject: [TUHS] TeX/troff/typesetting markups - Re: SunOS 4 documentation
In-Reply-To: <20170414004048.GC28292@eureka.lemis.com>
References: <1492034056.640146.943005264.77830DD6@webmail.messagingengine.com>
 <1492037730.652251.943052704.39811DAC@webmail.messagingengine.com>
 <20170412233158.GB14143@mcvoy.com>
 <08eb864b-784b-28e5-63b3-420cfbc5f684@telegraphics.com.au>
 <20170413022029.GM14143@mcvoy.com> <20170413134151.c2Hvf%steffen@sdaoden.eu>
 <f4719263-cbbe-f75a-e3ba-3826bec9d8af@telegraphics.com.au>
 <20170413232259.53GdF%steffen@sdaoden.eu>
 <20170414004048.GC28292@eureka.lemis.com>
Message-ID: <20170414133804.ZyUiK%steffen@sdaoden.eu>

Greg 'groggy' Lehey <grog at lemis.com> wrote:
 |On Friday, 14 April 2017 at  1:22:59 +0200, Steffen Nurpmeso wrote:
 |> Toby Thain <toby at telegraphics.com.au> wrote:
 |>> Indeed, as a typographer, I believe details matter, no matter what the
 |>> audience. I think Knuth feels the same way. :)
 |>
 |> It is really perfectly looking.  Maybe too perfect, in the
 |> sense of, maybe even aseptic.
 |
 |My issue with TeX output using standard parameters is that it reaches
 |out, grabs you by the throat and says "I was formatted with Tex".
 |That would be mainly the Computer Modern fonts, but I haven't seen
 |that with any other text formatting software.

Maybe it really was a stupid comment of mine.  The thing is, not
too long ago i, somewhere, i watched something like
a documentation on old manuscripts, which we had hundreds of years
ago.  It was Art, it was devotion, these beautifully painted and
written manuscripts.  It is thus just the feeling of having lost
something: controlling a missile exactly or being able to create
a satellite that is capable to analyze a moon is a very amazing
and fantastic achievement, but it seems hollow and nil if not
based on the capability to be able to survive without supermarket
and have a notion of holism.  I.e., stand upon solid ground.
Then again i also favour multiplexer commands which hide the
complexity under the hood, rather than using a nice hand-written
Unix pipeline specification to create a letter myself.  Pfff.

--steffen


From madcrow.maxwell at gmail.com  Fri Apr 14 23:56:35 2017
From: madcrow.maxwell at gmail.com (Michael Kerpan)
Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2017 09:56:35 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] TeX/troff/typesetting markups - Re: SunOS 4 documentation
In-Reply-To: <20170414133804.ZyUiK%steffen@sdaoden.eu>
References: <1492034056.640146.943005264.77830DD6@webmail.messagingengine.com>
 <1492037730.652251.943052704.39811DAC@webmail.messagingengine.com>
 <20170412233158.GB14143@mcvoy.com>
 <08eb864b-784b-28e5-63b3-420cfbc5f684@telegraphics.com.au>
 <20170413022029.GM14143@mcvoy.com> <20170413134151.c2Hvf%steffen@sdaoden.eu>
 <f4719263-cbbe-f75a-e3ba-3826bec9d8af@telegraphics.com.au>
 <20170413232259.53GdF%steffen@sdaoden.eu>
 <20170414004048.GC28292@eureka.lemis.com>
 <20170414133804.ZyUiK%steffen@sdaoden.eu>
Message-ID: <CAHfSdrXX8K3nwomX7kW2HHmysQuwM=tNr7Yf9w2+3-OcYH1BuA@mail.gmail.com>

Of course, these days, there's a version of troff that borrows TeX's layout
rules, while also adding vastly improved font handling, support for the
most useful/widely used groff extensions, and more. Why Heirloom troff
isn't more widely used is a puzzle for the ages.

Mike
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From steffen at sdaoden.eu  Sat Apr 15 02:55:12 2017
From: steffen at sdaoden.eu (Steffen Nurpmeso)
Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2017 18:55:12 +0200
Subject: [TUHS] TeX/troff/typesetting markups - Re: SunOS 4 documentation
In-Reply-To: <CAHfSdrXX8K3nwomX7kW2HHmysQuwM=tNr7Yf9w2+3-OcYH1BuA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1492034056.640146.943005264.77830DD6@webmail.messagingengine.com>
 <1492037730.652251.943052704.39811DAC@webmail.messagingengine.com>
 <20170412233158.GB14143@mcvoy.com>
 <08eb864b-784b-28e5-63b3-420cfbc5f684@telegraphics.com.au>
 <20170413022029.GM14143@mcvoy.com> <20170413134151.c2Hvf%steffen@sdaoden.eu>
 <f4719263-cbbe-f75a-e3ba-3826bec9d8af@telegraphics.com.au>
 <20170413232259.53GdF%steffen@sdaoden.eu>
 <20170414004048.GC28292@eureka.lemis.com>
 <20170414133804.ZyUiK%steffen@sdaoden.eu>
 <CAHfSdrXX8K3nwomX7kW2HHmysQuwM=tNr7Yf9w2+3-OcYH1BuA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20170414165512.0ERay%steffen@sdaoden.eu>

Michael Kerpan <madcrow.maxwell at gmail.com> wrote:
 |Of course, these days, there's a version of troff that borrows TeX's \
 |layout rules, while also adding vastly improved font handling, support \
 |for the most 
 |useful/widely used groff extensions, and more. Why Heirloom troff isn't \
 |more widely used is a puzzle for the ages.

For myself i can answer this, it is not compatible with my own
macro set, the headers and footers are completely messed up, so
i would need to rewrite all this.  The capabilities you mention
are great, sometimes a bit hard to use, maybe.  It is likely that
you can have very good results if you explicitly go for it; surely
the same can be said for GNU roff.

In fact i looked at it a few years ago, but the code appeared
(very) messy to me, and of course i already had been impaired by
"this is good enough for what i need (now)" code, though i for one
have also stated in the past that my damages (you can get a gray
beard!  So just in case this was the source for that) root in code
which has been written almost half a decade earlier.

But note that i never liked the multipass approach that is
necessary to generate (front page) TOC, indices etc., in sofar as
it must be driven from an outer authority.  Iirc there are hints
similar to "two or three pass, maybe more", until TOC and index
insertions are up-to-date and the page numbers have all come in
sync etc.  I "always" had the idea of having some multipass thing
built-in, so that the macros themselves can decide what is
necessary and what not, and are enabled themselves to pick up data
of former runs.  That is what i really would like to get to.
UTF-8 would be great, TTF fonts, too.  A somewhat improved
automatic overall formatting would be nice, or at least warnings
like TeXs "overfull box" (iirc), with page and line number.  But
i have zero idea of what will go and what not, and how long it
will take.  But it would be fantastic to be there one day.

--steffen


From clemc at ccc.com  Sat Apr 15 06:56:02 2017
From: clemc at ccc.com (Clem Cole)
Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2017 16:56:02 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] TeX/troff/typesetting markups - Re: SunOS 4 documentation
In-Reply-To: <4F046561-FFC6-409A-AB4D-E656F8C93E5F@mailbox.org>
References: <1492034056.640146.943005264.77830DD6@webmail.messagingengine.com>
 <1492037730.652251.943052704.39811DAC@webmail.messagingengine.com>
 <20170412233158.GB14143@mcvoy.com>
 <08eb864b-784b-28e5-63b3-420cfbc5f684@telegraphics.com.au>
 <20170413022029.GM14143@mcvoy.com> <20170413134151.c2Hvf%steffen@sdaoden.eu>
 <f4719263-cbbe-f75a-e3ba-3826bec9d8af@telegraphics.com.au>
 <4F046561-FFC6-409A-AB4D-E656F8C93E5F@mailbox.org>
Message-ID: <CAC20D2NtCpn=jv2aNZnioGLts92x20HE5gs3DiPzLs_YP++KXg@mail.gmail.com>

Have you tried the Free Pascal Compiler?    Its pretty much become the
standard for Pascal these days and runs on just about everything (including
modern Macs).  It also supports most of the modern Pascal dialect such as
Delphi et al.

Clem

On Fri, Apr 14, 2017 at 9:07 AM, Wolfgang Helbig <helbig at mailbox.org> wrote:

>
> > Am 13.04.2017 um 17:40 schrieb Toby Thain <toby at telegraphics.com.au>:
> >
> > On 2017-04-13 9:41 AM, Steffen Nurpmeso wrote:
> >> ...
> >> i have no idea of what happened on the TeX side in the last, say,
> >> about 15 years.  TeXLive has always been too large for me, i have
> >
> > They have a small "basic" version with the essentials, a hundred
> megabytes or so.
> >
> > http://www.tug.org/mactex/morepackages.html
>
> this one is even smaller, only about 700 kB:
>         https://www.ctan.org/tex-archive/systems/unix/tex-gpc
>
> You’ll need the GNU Pascal Compiler to install it. Regrettable, GPC does
> not run on current Versions of Mac OS X.
>
> Greetings
>
> Wolfgang Helbig
> Stauferstr. 22
>
> 71334 Waiblingen
>
>
>
>
>
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From toby at telegraphics.com.au  Sat Apr 15 08:24:26 2017
From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain)
Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2017 18:24:26 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] TeX/troff/typesetting markups - Re: SunOS 4 documentation
In-Reply-To: <CAHfSdrXX8K3nwomX7kW2HHmysQuwM=tNr7Yf9w2+3-OcYH1BuA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1492034056.640146.943005264.77830DD6@webmail.messagingengine.com>
 <1492037730.652251.943052704.39811DAC@webmail.messagingengine.com>
 <20170412233158.GB14143@mcvoy.com>
 <08eb864b-784b-28e5-63b3-420cfbc5f684@telegraphics.com.au>
 <20170413022029.GM14143@mcvoy.com> <20170413134151.c2Hvf%steffen@sdaoden.eu>
 <f4719263-cbbe-f75a-e3ba-3826bec9d8af@telegraphics.com.au>
 <20170413232259.53GdF%steffen@sdaoden.eu>
 <20170414004048.GC28292@eureka.lemis.com>
 <20170414133804.ZyUiK%steffen@sdaoden.eu>
 <CAHfSdrXX8K3nwomX7kW2HHmysQuwM=tNr7Yf9w2+3-OcYH1BuA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <b313bd1d-28d3-e498-f72c-692ee27e6ae1@telegraphics.com.au>

On 2017-04-14 9:56 AM, Michael Kerpan wrote:
> Of course, these days, there's a version of troff that borrows TeX's
> layout rules, while also adding vastly improved font handling, support
> for the most useful/widely used groff extensions, and more. Why Heirloom
> troff isn't more widely used is a puzzle for the ages.

No matter how far you tart up the former, Troff and TeX just aren't 
playing the same ballgame.

--T

>
> Mike



From madcrow.maxwell at gmail.com  Sun Apr 16 00:23:34 2017
From: madcrow.maxwell at gmail.com (Michael Kerpan)
Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2017 10:23:34 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] TeX/troff/typesetting markups - Re: SunOS 4 documentation
In-Reply-To: <CAHfSdrVAnPn3hwFR0ie0o-yuqGX0hu+LWweNZngpoY4=efTSaA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1492034056.640146.943005264.77830DD6@webmail.messagingengine.com>
 <1492037730.652251.943052704.39811DAC@webmail.messagingengine.com>
 <20170412233158.GB14143@mcvoy.com>
 <08eb864b-784b-28e5-63b3-420cfbc5f684@telegraphics.com.au>
 <20170413022029.GM14143@mcvoy.com> <20170413134151.c2Hvf%steffen@sdaoden.eu>
 <f4719263-cbbe-f75a-e3ba-3826bec9d8af@telegraphics.com.au>
 <20170413232259.53GdF%steffen@sdaoden.eu>
 <20170414004048.GC28292@eureka.lemis.com>
 <20170414133804.ZyUiK%steffen@sdaoden.eu>
 <CAHfSdrXX8K3nwomX7kW2HHmysQuwM=tNr7Yf9w2+3-OcYH1BuA@mail.gmail.com>
 <b313bd1d-28d3-e498-f72c-692ee27e6ae1@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAHfSdrVAnPn3hwFR0ie0o-yuqGX0hu+LWweNZngpoY4=efTSaA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAHfSdrVaC1UgKn2ssUPfV9zAtaR06WinCZWQNDOH9D4MNDiC1Q@mail.gmail.com>

Comparing documents produced by Heirloom troff and modern versions of
LaTeX, I just can't see a huge difference. The main thing TeX has going for
it is LyX, which makes composing documents a whole lot more comfortable for
folks raised on WYSIWYG. If a tool like that was available for troff...

Mike

On Apr 14, 2017 6:24 PM, "Toby Thain" <toby at telegraphics.com.au> wrote:

On 2017-04-14 9:56 AM, Michael Kerpan wrote:

> Of course, these days, there's a version of troff that borrows TeX's
> layout rules, while also adding vastly improved font handling, support
> for the most useful/widely used groff extensions, and more. Why Heirloom
> troff isn't more widely used is a puzzle for the ages.
>

No matter how far you tart up the former, Troff and TeX just aren't playing
the same ballgame.

--T


> Mike
>
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From toby at telegraphics.com.au  Sun Apr 16 01:09:15 2017
From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain)
Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2017 11:09:15 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] TeX/troff/typesetting markups - Re: SunOS 4 documentation
In-Reply-To: <CAHfSdrVaC1UgKn2ssUPfV9zAtaR06WinCZWQNDOH9D4MNDiC1Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1492034056.640146.943005264.77830DD6@webmail.messagingengine.com>
 <1492037730.652251.943052704.39811DAC@webmail.messagingengine.com>
 <20170412233158.GB14143@mcvoy.com>
 <08eb864b-784b-28e5-63b3-420cfbc5f684@telegraphics.com.au>
 <20170413022029.GM14143@mcvoy.com> <20170413134151.c2Hvf%steffen@sdaoden.eu>
 <f4719263-cbbe-f75a-e3ba-3826bec9d8af@telegraphics.com.au>
 <20170413232259.53GdF%steffen@sdaoden.eu>
 <20170414004048.GC28292@eureka.lemis.com>
 <20170414133804.ZyUiK%steffen@sdaoden.eu>
 <CAHfSdrXX8K3nwomX7kW2HHmysQuwM=tNr7Yf9w2+3-OcYH1BuA@mail.gmail.com>
 <b313bd1d-28d3-e498-f72c-692ee27e6ae1@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAHfSdrVAnPn3hwFR0ie0o-yuqGX0hu+LWweNZngpoY4=efTSaA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAHfSdrVaC1UgKn2ssUPfV9zAtaR06WinCZWQNDOH9D4MNDiC1Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <195e1d78-6aa2-2472-1802-dbade283ad35@telegraphics.com.au>

On 2017-04-15 10:23 AM, Michael Kerpan wrote:
> Comparing documents produced by Heirloom troff and modern versions of
> LaTeX, I just can't see a huge difference. The main thing TeX has going
> for it is LyX, which makes composing documents a whole lot more
> comfortable for folks raised on WYSIWYG. If a tool like that was
> available for troff...

I'm not only talking about the _output_. But my intention isn't to 
denigrate troff but to show that they are completely different animals. 
A glance through the TeXbook would confirm.

TeX is a complete domain-specific language, page model, and runtime 
environment (without even discussing its layered frameworks like LaTeX). 
I admit it took me a few weeks or months of study back in the late 1980s 
to understand this distinction; previously I had been using a 
troff-level markup (perhaps even troff-inspired) on Mac called 
"JustText", which generated PostScript of course.

One _can_ typeset books in both troff and TeX, but that doesn't make 
them at all equivalent. The process and possibilities are different. For 
example, that simple task of producing two different output formats from 
the same manuscript, that I mentioned upthread, is made possible by TeX 
macros. But the sophistication of its page model is also required for 
any nontrivial layout, table, diagram, math, or just typographic 
refinement.

Some projects _have_ tried to replace TeX. 
https://tex.stackexchange.com/questions/120271/alternatives-to-latex

--T

>
> Mike
>
> On Apr 14, 2017 6:24 PM, "Toby Thain" <toby at telegraphics.com.au
> <mailto:toby at telegraphics.com.au>> wrote:
>
>     On 2017-04-14 9:56 AM, Michael Kerpan wrote:
>
>         Of course, these days, there's a version of troff that borrows TeX's
>         layout rules, while also adding vastly improved font handling,
>         support
>         for the most useful/widely used groff extensions, and more. Why
>         Heirloom
>         troff isn't more widely used is a puzzle for the ages.
>
>
>     No matter how far you tart up the former, Troff and TeX just aren't
>     playing the same ballgame.
>
>     --T
>
>
>         Mike
>
>
>



From clemc at ccc.com  Sun Apr 16 01:27:49 2017
From: clemc at ccc.com (Clem Cole)
Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2017 11:27:49 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] TeX/troff/typesetting markups - Re: SunOS 4 documentation
In-Reply-To: <b313bd1d-28d3-e498-f72c-692ee27e6ae1@telegraphics.com.au>
References: <1492034056.640146.943005264.77830DD6@webmail.messagingengine.com>
 <1492037730.652251.943052704.39811DAC@webmail.messagingengine.com>
 <20170412233158.GB14143@mcvoy.com>
 <08eb864b-784b-28e5-63b3-420cfbc5f684@telegraphics.com.au>
 <20170413022029.GM14143@mcvoy.com> <20170413134151.c2Hvf%steffen@sdaoden.eu>
 <f4719263-cbbe-f75a-e3ba-3826bec9d8af@telegraphics.com.au>
 <20170413232259.53GdF%steffen@sdaoden.eu>
 <20170414004048.GC28292@eureka.lemis.com>
 <20170414133804.ZyUiK%steffen@sdaoden.eu>
 <CAHfSdrXX8K3nwomX7kW2HHmysQuwM=tNr7Yf9w2+3-OcYH1BuA@mail.gmail.com>
 <b313bd1d-28d3-e498-f72c-692ee27e6ae1@telegraphics.com.au>
Message-ID: <CAC20D2OR5reLm-BD4Ff+9G_vy=O_b=sSSGZ0q-70qNVFCF_7gg@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Apr 14, 2017 at 6:24 PM, Toby Thain <toby at telegraphics.com.au>
wrote:
>
>
> No matter how far you tart up the former, Troff and TeX just aren't
> playing the same ballgame.


​Toby - that's a tad inflammatory - at least to my American sensibilities.
Saying one or the other has been "dressed up" (using a derogatory term or
not) is to me the same as the vi/emacs wars or rugby/American Football
argument.   Some people like the taste of one, others do not, and thank
goodness we have choices.   I've used the afore mentioned systems (and
played the games too at a fairly high level in my day); and frankly it is a
matter if taste.  They all have their place.

If you grew up with an affinity for one, you are more likely to find it
more comfortable for your needs.  I find a TeX just as ugly and unreadable
as  the runoff family with troff is a member.   It's just a different view
of beauty.  Frankly, Brian Reid's Scribe on the "Twinex" and VMS was the
"best" document product system I ever really used (for those that do not
know, LaTex was an attempt to bring Scribe-like functions into TeX).    But
as Brian Kernighan points out in his "Page Makeup" paper, even Scribe had
some flaws (it's too bad Scribe seems to have been lost to IP and source
issues - I've often wonder how it would have played out in the modern
world).

Anyway - it fine to say you don't like troff - please feel free to suggest
that you don't think that it can be made to your style/preferences.   But
please don't sling to many insults as the truth is, that troff is still
useful to many people and a lot people do still like it.

In my own case, I'll use TeX if a colleague wants too, but I'm a fair bit
faster with troff than almost any other doc prep system for any document of
almost any size; but particularly when the documents get large such as
book.   But that's me; although I note it is also a lot of other people.
As Brian points out, many of the Pearson and Wiley texts use troff; and of
course you have to note that my old deskmate, Tim O'Reilly founded his
empire on it 😂 (I still have a copy of the his original style manual they
wrote for the Masscomp engineers and doc writers in the mid 80s).
Clem
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From toby at telegraphics.com.au  Sun Apr 16 03:05:19 2017
From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain)
Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2017 13:05:19 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] TeX/troff/typesetting markups - Re: SunOS 4 documentation
In-Reply-To: <CAC20D2OR5reLm-BD4Ff+9G_vy=O_b=sSSGZ0q-70qNVFCF_7gg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1492034056.640146.943005264.77830DD6@webmail.messagingengine.com>
 <1492037730.652251.943052704.39811DAC@webmail.messagingengine.com>
 <20170412233158.GB14143@mcvoy.com>
 <08eb864b-784b-28e5-63b3-420cfbc5f684@telegraphics.com.au>
 <20170413022029.GM14143@mcvoy.com> <20170413134151.c2Hvf%steffen@sdaoden.eu>
 <f4719263-cbbe-f75a-e3ba-3826bec9d8af@telegraphics.com.au>
 <20170413232259.53GdF%steffen@sdaoden.eu>
 <20170414004048.GC28292@eureka.lemis.com>
 <20170414133804.ZyUiK%steffen@sdaoden.eu>
 <CAHfSdrXX8K3nwomX7kW2HHmysQuwM=tNr7Yf9w2+3-OcYH1BuA@mail.gmail.com>
 <b313bd1d-28d3-e498-f72c-692ee27e6ae1@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAC20D2OR5reLm-BD4Ff+9G_vy=O_b=sSSGZ0q-70qNVFCF_7gg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <6b0711b9-1ce3-e432-3049-0136910928f6@telegraphics.com.au>

On 2017-04-15 11:27 AM, Clem Cole wrote:
>
>
> On Fri, Apr 14, 2017 at 6:24 PM, Toby Thain <toby at telegraphics.com.au
> <mailto:toby at telegraphics.com.au>> wrote:
>
>
>     No matter how far you tart up the former, Troff and TeX just aren't
>     playing the same ballgame.
>
>
> ​Toby - that's a tad inflammatory - at least to my American
> sensibilities.

Perhaps moreso than I intended. In any case, my 2nd post clarifies what 
I meant about the two tools being very, very different even if they 
"both work" for some tasks.

--T

> Clem



From toby at telegraphics.com.au  Sun Apr 16 03:10:19 2017
From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain)
Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2017 13:10:19 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] TeX/troff/typesetting markups - Re: SunOS 4 documentation
In-Reply-To: <CAC20D2OR5reLm-BD4Ff+9G_vy=O_b=sSSGZ0q-70qNVFCF_7gg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1492034056.640146.943005264.77830DD6@webmail.messagingengine.com>
 <1492037730.652251.943052704.39811DAC@webmail.messagingengine.com>
 <20170412233158.GB14143@mcvoy.com>
 <08eb864b-784b-28e5-63b3-420cfbc5f684@telegraphics.com.au>
 <20170413022029.GM14143@mcvoy.com> <20170413134151.c2Hvf%steffen@sdaoden.eu>
 <f4719263-cbbe-f75a-e3ba-3826bec9d8af@telegraphics.com.au>
 <20170413232259.53GdF%steffen@sdaoden.eu>
 <20170414004048.GC28292@eureka.lemis.com>
 <20170414133804.ZyUiK%steffen@sdaoden.eu>
 <CAHfSdrXX8K3nwomX7kW2HHmysQuwM=tNr7Yf9w2+3-OcYH1BuA@mail.gmail.com>
 <b313bd1d-28d3-e498-f72c-692ee27e6ae1@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAC20D2OR5reLm-BD4Ff+9G_vy=O_b=sSSGZ0q-70qNVFCF_7gg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <902a6533-9638-d15d-6c3a-016458a12e25@telegraphics.com.au>

On 2017-04-15 11:27 AM, Clem Cole wrote:
>
> ...
> Anyway - it fine to say you don't like troff - please feel free to
> suggest that you don't think that it can be made to your
> style/preferences.   But please don't sling to many insults as the truth
> is, that troff is still useful to many people and a lot people do still
> like it.

I'm not saying I "don't like troff". I don't care what anyone uses.

>
> In my own case, I'll use TeX if a colleague wants too, but I'm a fair
> bit faster with troff than almost any other doc prep system for any
> document of almost any size; but particularly when the documents get
> large such as book.   But that's me; although I note it is also a lot of
> other people.   As Brian points out, many of the Pearson and Wiley texts
> use troff; and of course you have to note that my old deskmate, Tim

...and of course I know books have been set with troff. That's 
irrelevant to the point I was making: Tools of different generations, 
with different provenance, ambitions, designs, and capabilities. I hope 
no confusion remains.

--T

> O'Reilly founded his empire on it 😂 (I still have a copy of the his
> original style manual they wrote for the Masscomp engineers and doc
> writers in the mid 80s).
> Clem



From mutiny.mutiny at rediffmail.com  Sun Apr 16 02:07:01 2017
From: mutiny.mutiny at rediffmail.com (Mutiny )
Date: 15 Apr 2017 16:07:01 -0000
Subject: [TUHS]
	=?utf-8?q?TeX/troff/typesetting_markups_-__SunOS_4_documen?=
	=?utf-8?q?tation?=
In-Reply-To: <CAHfSdrVaC1UgKn2ssUPfV9zAtaR06WinCZWQNDOH9D4MNDiC1Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1492266262.S.8157.16231.f4-235-140.1492272421.27414@webmail.rediffmail.com>

I alkways wonder why there wasn&#39;t any WYSIWYG n/troff software. At least I don&#39;t know about it.From: Michael Kerpan &lt;madcrow.maxwell at gmail.com&gt;Sent: Sat, 15 Apr 2017 19:54:22To: Toby Thain &lt;toby at telegraphics.com.au&gt;Cc: tuhs at minnie.tuhs.orgSubject: Re: [TUHS] TeX/troff/typesetting markups - SunOS 4 documentation&nbsp;Comparing documents produced by Heirloom troff and modern versions of LaTeX, I just can&#39;t see a huge difference. The main thing TeX has going for it is LyX, which makes composing documents a whole lot more comfortable for folks raised on WYSIWYG. If a tool like that was available for troff...
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From arnold at skeeve.com  Sun Apr 16 03:56:29 2017
From: arnold at skeeve.com (arnold at skeeve.com)
Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2017 11:56:29 -0600
Subject: [TUHS] Steven Bourne - early days of unix talk
Message-ID: <201704151756.v3FHuUI4019407@freefriends.org>

>From the 9fans list:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2kEJoWfobpA

It's about an hour long; haven't watched it yet.

Arnold


From dave at horsfall.org  Sun Apr 16 07:48:34 2017
From: dave at horsfall.org (Dave Horsfall)
Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2017 07:48:34 +1000 (EST)
Subject: [TUHS] TeX/troff/typesetting markups -  SunOS 4 documentation
In-Reply-To: <1492266262.S.8157.16231.f4-235-140.1492272421.27414@webmail.rediffmail.com>
References: <1492266262.S.8157.16231.f4-235-140.1492272421.27414@webmail.rediffmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.BSF.2.20.1704160747320.5445@aneurin.horsfall.org>

On Sun, 15 Apr 2017, Mutiny  wrote:

> I alkways wonder why there wasn't any WYSIWYG n/troff software. At least 
> I don't know about it.

Err, because terminals were hard-copy at the time?

-- 
Dave Horsfall DTM (VK2KFU)  "Those who don't understand security will suffer."


From rminnich at gmail.com  Sun Apr 16 08:12:23 2017
From: rminnich at gmail.com (ron minnich)
Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2017 22:12:23 +0000
Subject: [TUHS] TeX/troff/typesetting markups - SunOS 4 documentation
In-Reply-To: <alpine.BSF.2.20.1704160747320.5445@aneurin.horsfall.org>
References: <1492266262.S.8157.16231.f4-235-140.1492272421.27414@webmail.rediffmail.com>
 <alpine.BSF.2.20.1704160747320.5445@aneurin.horsfall.org>
Message-ID: <CAP6exYLDeA2H2w2sbzLW0wpoYBtnf_LSv0ewKEoiYWQy7gKv6A@mail.gmail.com>

This may cleara it up.

https://softsenseblog.files.wordpress.com/2015/07/asr33-753504.jpg

On Sat, Apr 15, 2017 at 2:49 PM Dave Horsfall <dave at horsfall.org> wrote:

> On Sun, 15 Apr 2017, Mutiny  wrote:
>
> > I alkways wonder why there wasn't any WYSIWYG n/troff software. At least
> > I don't know about it.
>
> Err, because terminals were hard-copy at the time?
>
> --
> Dave Horsfall DTM (VK2KFU)  "Those who don't understand security will
> suffer."
>
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From dave at horsfall.org  Sun Apr 16 10:02:04 2017
From: dave at horsfall.org (Dave Horsfall)
Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2017 10:02:04 +1000 (EST)
Subject: [TUHS] TeX/troff/typesetting markups - SunOS 4 documentation
In-Reply-To: <CAP6exYLDeA2H2w2sbzLW0wpoYBtnf_LSv0ewKEoiYWQy7gKv6A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1492266262.S.8157.16231.f4-235-140.1492272421.27414@webmail.rediffmail.com>
 <alpine.BSF.2.20.1704160747320.5445@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <CAP6exYLDeA2H2w2sbzLW0wpoYBtnf_LSv0ewKEoiYWQy7gKv6A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.BSF.2.20.1704161000470.5445@aneurin.horsfall.org>

On Sat, 15 Apr 2017, ron minnich wrote:

> This may cleara it up.
> https://softsenseblog.files.wordpress.com/2015/07/asr33-753504.jpg

Well, I suppose it's partly transparent...

> On Sat, Apr 15, 2017 at 2:49 PM Dave Horsfall <dave at horsfall.org> wrote:
>       On Sun, 15 Apr 2017, Mutiny  wrote:
> 
>       > I alkways wonder why there wasn't any WYSIWYG n/troff software. 
>       > At least I don't know about it.
> 
>       Err, because terminals were hard-copy at the time?

-- 
Dave Horsfall DTM (VK2KFU)  "Those who don't understand security will suffer."

From tfb at tfeb.org  Sun Apr 16 23:42:36 2017
From: tfb at tfeb.org (Tim Bradshaw)
Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2017 14:42:36 +0100
Subject: [TUHS] TeX/troff/typesetting markups - Re: SunOS 4 documentation
In-Reply-To: <4F046561-FFC6-409A-AB4D-E656F8C93E5F@mailbox.org>
References: <1492034056.640146.943005264.77830DD6@webmail.messagingengine.com>
 <1492037730.652251.943052704.39811DAC@webmail.messagingengine.com>
 <20170412233158.GB14143@mcvoy.com>
 <08eb864b-784b-28e5-63b3-420cfbc5f684@telegraphics.com.au>
 <20170413022029.GM14143@mcvoy.com> <20170413134151.c2Hvf%steffen@sdaoden.eu>
 <f4719263-cbbe-f75a-e3ba-3826bec9d8af@telegraphics.com.au>
 <4F046561-FFC6-409A-AB4D-E656F8C93E5F@mailbox.org>
Message-ID: <6BF1CC9F-FA9D-4647-9105-350E949C00DB@tfeb.org>

On 14 Apr 2017, at 14:07, Wolfgang Helbig <helbig at mailbox.org> wrote:
> 
> this one is even smaller, only about 700 kB:
> 	https://www.ctan.org/tex-archive/systems/unix/tex-gpc

That's just TeX, Metafont, and perhaps plain & the MF sources for CMR.

Installing that might indeed be interesting in the context of this list, because it would give a feeling for what installing TeX was like in the early 1980s: you went through some more-or-less painful process to get the thing to compile at all, typically involving building a Pascal-C converter of some kind, converting tangle into C, fiddling with the result so it would compile, then using the result to convert TeX (with the various patches which I forget how they work now, except not by 'patch' which probably did not exist anyway) into C, fiddling with *that* to get it to compile, then doing the same for MF, building the plain format & font metrics.  At which point you could probably make DVI files using macros in plain, but not print them or see what they looked like at all.  After dealing with that somehow you realised just how horrible plain looked and started on a huge slow journey of acquiring sets of macros, usually culminating in the inevitability of having to write a less-horrible style for LaTeX (which would be 2.09 without the NFSS and thus deeply painful to use).  Oh, and you had to work out some directory structure for it all to live in, because there wasn't any standard for that, of course.

So, such a thing is interesting in the way that installing 7th edition is interesting, but probably not if you want to actually set text.  If you want to set text just install TeX Live.  Yes, it's big (by 1980s standards: you can perhaps still buy a smartphone without enough storage for it), but it's big because it includes everything you need.

--tim

From arrigo at alchemistowl.org  Mon Apr 17 00:42:19 2017
From: arrigo at alchemistowl.org (Arrigo Triulzi)
Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2017 16:42:19 +0200
Subject: [TUHS] FTP issue
Message-ID: <EBCE6571-176D-4452-AF01-BBD073C97C6F@alchemistowl.org>

May I recommend you use the ftp-proxy setup on OpenBSD? It is well-documented here:

https://www.openbsd.org/faq/pf/ftp.html

So far it has solved all passive FTP issues behind NAT for me.

Arrigo 
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From david at kdbarto.org  Mon Apr 17 04:39:09 2017
From: david at kdbarto.org (David)
Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2017 11:39:09 -0700
Subject: [TUHS] TUHS Digest, Vol 17, Issue 41
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1492308002.1768.tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org>
References: <mailman.1.1492308002.1768.tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org>
Message-ID: <F7480CB1-80B8-4986-9500-8F1C0AEC9071@kdbarto.org>

Just finished it. He isn’t the greatest presenter, and it is an interesting overview of how the Bourne shell got written, including some of the quirks it has to this day.

	David

> On Apr 15, 2017, at 7:00 PM, tuhs-request at minnie.tuhs.org wrote:
> 
> Subject: [TUHS] Steven Bourne - early days of unix talk
> Message-ID: <201704151756.v3FHuUI4019407 at freefriends.org>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
> 
>> From the 9fans list:
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2kEJoWfobpA



From doug at cs.dartmouth.edu  Tue Apr 18 04:56:05 2017
From: doug at cs.dartmouth.edu (Doug McIlroy)
Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2017 14:56:05 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] TeX/troff/typesetting markups - Re: SunOS 4 documentation
Message-ID: <201704171856.v3HIu53w001734@coolidge.cs.Dartmouth.EDU>

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Fabulous.

Tim McNamara said we should make sure with Vicki Smith that it's not in the
conservation easement area and if so, if that's okay?



On 14 April 2017 at 17:37, M. Douglas McIlroy <
M.Douglas.McIlroy at dartmouth.edu> wrote:

> Rory,
>
> A possible tree-felling apportunity exists at the lookout just
> north of the summit. The former view toward Baker Tower has
> been totally obscured by new growth. If Dartmouth is amenable,
> the taller trees might be felled in that patch. There may be
> a dozen trees something like 10" in diaameter.
>
> I saw three other trees at scattered intervals along the
> trail, which could be removed, though none is a pressing
> hazard: a dead pine >18" and two leaners ~8".
>

--001a1143d7a672d411054d5dceaa
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra">Fabulous.=C2=A0</div><div class=
=3D"gmail_extra"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra">Tim McNamara said we =
should make sure with Vicki Smith that it&#39;s not in the conservation eas=
ement area and if so, if that&#39;s okay?=C2=A0</div><div class=3D"gmail_ex=
tra"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_ext=
ra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On 14 April 2017 at 17:37, M. Douglas Mc=
Ilroy <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:M.Douglas.McIlroy at dartmouth.e=
du" target=3D"_blank">M.Douglas.McIlroy at dartmouth.edu</a>&gt;</span> wrote:=
<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-lef=
t:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div id=3D":1mg" class=3D"a3s aXjCH m15b=
6e663c119796f">Rory,<br>
<br>
A possible tree-felling apportunity exists at the lookout just<br>
north of the summit. The former view toward Baker Tower has<br>
been totally obscured by new growth. If Dartmouth is amenable,<br>
the taller trees might be felled in that patch. There may be<br>
a dozen trees something like 10&quot; in diaameter.<br>
<br>
I saw three other trees at scattered intervals along the<br>
trail, which could be removed, though none is a pressing<br>
hazard: a dead pine &gt;18&quot; and two leaners ~8&quot;.</div></blockquot=
e></div><br><br></div></div>

--001a1143d7a672d411054d5dceaa--



From grog at lemis.com  Tue Apr 18 14:49:48 2017
From: grog at lemis.com (Greg 'groggy' Lehey)
Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2017 14:49:48 +1000
Subject: [TUHS] TeX/troff/typesetting markups - Re: SunOS 4 documentation
In-Reply-To: <CAC20D2OR5reLm-BD4Ff+9G_vy=O_b=sSSGZ0q-70qNVFCF_7gg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <08eb864b-784b-28e5-63b3-420cfbc5f684@telegraphics.com.au>
 <20170413022029.GM14143@mcvoy.com>
 <20170413134151.c2Hvf%steffen@sdaoden.eu>
 <f4719263-cbbe-f75a-e3ba-3826bec9d8af@telegraphics.com.au>
 <20170413232259.53GdF%steffen@sdaoden.eu>
 <20170414004048.GC28292@eureka.lemis.com>
 <20170414133804.ZyUiK%steffen@sdaoden.eu>
 <CAHfSdrXX8K3nwomX7kW2HHmysQuwM=tNr7Yf9w2+3-OcYH1BuA@mail.gmail.com>
 <b313bd1d-28d3-e498-f72c-692ee27e6ae1@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAC20D2OR5reLm-BD4Ff+9G_vy=O_b=sSSGZ0q-70qNVFCF_7gg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20170418044948.GB45593@eureka.lemis.com>

On Saturday, 15 April 2017 at 11:27:49 -0400, Clem Cole wrote:
>
> If you grew up with an affinity for one, you are more likely to find
> it more comfortable for your needs.  I find a TeX just as ugly and
> unreadable as the runoff family with troff is a member.

FWIW, I grew up with TeX, but when I wrote "Porting UNIX Software" for
O'Reilly, they wanted the markup in groff with their adaptation of the
mm macro set.  I was game, and it worked well.  And then I discovered
I didn't want to go back to TeX.  I stuck with groff, and 20 years
later I'm still using it.

From the source of that book (P 120 of the printed version):

  .Pe
  More than anywhere else in porting, it is good for your state of mind to steer
  clear of
  .TXI \&
  internals.  The assumptions on which the syntax is based differ markedly from
  those of other programming languages.  For example, identifiers may not contain
  digits, and spaces are required only when the meaning would otherwise be
  ambiguous (to
  .TXI ,
  not to you), so the sequence \s10\f(CWfontsize300\fR\s0 is in fact the
  identifier \s10\f(CWfontsize\fR\s0 followed by the number \s10\f(CW300\fR\s0.
  On the other hand, it is almost impossible to find any good solid information in
  the documentation, so you could spend hours trying to solve a minor problem.  I
  have been using
  .TXI \&
  frequently for years, and I still find it the most frustrating program I have
  ever seen.\**
  .FS
  When I wrote this sentence, I wondered if I wasn't overstating the case.  Mike
  Loukides, the author of \fIProgramming with GNU Software\fR, reviewed the final
  draft and added a single word: \fIAmen\fR.
  .FE

.TXI was a macro that inserted a roughly correctly formatted Tex
emblem.

Greg
--
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From wkt at tuhs.org  Wed Apr 19 06:48:34 2017
From: wkt at tuhs.org (Warren Toomey)
Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2017 06:48:34 +1000
Subject: [TUHS] Bourne shell and comments
Message-ID: <20170418204834.GA22198@minnie.tuhs.org>

I was trying to configure C news on 2.9BSD today and I found that its
Bourne shell doesn't grok # comments. The Bourne shell in 2.11BSD does.

So I thought: when did the Bourne (and other) shells first grok # as
indicating a comment? Was this in response to #! being added to the
kernel, or was it the other way around? And was the choice of #!
arbitrary, or was it borrowed from somewhere else?

Datum point: 2.9BSD's kernel can recognise #!, but the sh can't recognise #.

Cheers, Warren


From ron at ronnatalie.com  Wed Apr 19 06:51:40 2017
From: ron at ronnatalie.com (Ron Natalie)
Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2017 16:51:40 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] Bourne shell and comments
In-Reply-To: <20170418204834.GA22198@minnie.tuhs.org>
References: <20170418204834.GA22198@minnie.tuhs.org>
Message-ID: <020a01d2b885$94bd49c0$be37dd40$@ronnatalie.com>

I believe the Berkeley #! magic number came first.   The C Shell already
used this as a comment, the Bourne shells grudgingly followed.

I still remember using : for a comment in the V6 shell.   Was also the label
for goto.




From chet.ramey at case.edu  Wed Apr 19 06:56:26 2017
From: chet.ramey at case.edu (Chet Ramey)
Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2017 16:56:26 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] Bourne shell and comments
In-Reply-To: <20170418204834.GA22198@minnie.tuhs.org>
References: <20170418204834.GA22198@minnie.tuhs.org>
Message-ID: <2264b631-2c08-def1-6a55-0f64bce13997@case.edu>

On 4/18/17 4:48 PM, Warren Toomey wrote:
> I was trying to configure C news on 2.9BSD today and I found that its
> Bourne shell doesn't grok # comments. The Bourne shell in 2.11BSD does.
> 
> So I thought: when did the Bourne (and other) shells first grok # as
> indicating a comment? Was this in response to #! being added to the
> kernel, or was it the other way around? And was the choice of #!
> arbitrary, or was it borrowed from somewhere else?

The Bourne shell got `#' comments in System III.  csh had them very
early. I'm pretty sure Dennis Ritchie suggested the `#!' syntax before
they were added to the System III sh, but not much earlier.

ISTR that the Berkeley Pascal system had something like `#!' first.

-- 
``The lyf so short, the craft so long to lerne.'' - Chaucer
		 ``Ars longa, vita brevis'' - Hippocrates
Chet Ramey, UTech, CWRU    chet at case.edu    http://cnswww.cns.cwru.edu/~chet/


From gtaylor at tnetconsulting.net  Wed Apr 19 07:45:36 2017
From: gtaylor at tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor)
Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2017 15:45:36 -0600
Subject: [TUHS] Bourne shell and comments
In-Reply-To: <020a01d2b885$94bd49c0$be37dd40$@ronnatalie.com>
References: <20170418204834.GA22198@minnie.tuhs.org>
 <020a01d2b885$94bd49c0$be37dd40$@ronnatalie.com>
Message-ID: <c80774f1-25b2-eae0-09ae-d9eaf2ad787d@tnetconsulting.net>

On 04/18/2017 02:51 PM, Ron Natalie wrote:
> Was also the label for goto.

Does that mean that the (so called) comment was really an (unused) label?



-- 
Grant. . . .
unix || die

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From ron at ronnatalie.com  Wed Apr 19 08:16:19 2017
From: ron at ronnatalie.com (Ron Natalie)
Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2017 18:16:19 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] Bourne shell and comments
In-Reply-To: <c80774f1-25b2-eae0-09ae-d9eaf2ad787d@tnetconsulting.net>
References: <20170418204834.GA22198@minnie.tuhs.org>
 <020a01d2b885$94bd49c0$be37dd40$@ronnatalie.com>
 <c80774f1-25b2-eae0-09ae-d9eaf2ad787d@tnetconsulting.net>
Message-ID: <021701d2b891$67f76180$37e62480$@ronnatalie.com>

Yep, served both purposes.


-----Original Message-----
From: TUHS [mailto:tuhs-bounces at minnie.tuhs.org] On Behalf Of Grant Taylor
Sent: Tuesday, April 18, 2017 5:46 PM
To: tuhs at minnie.tuhs.org
Subject: Re: [TUHS] Bourne shell and comments

On 04/18/2017 02:51 PM, Ron Natalie wrote:
> Was also the label for goto.

Does that mean that the (so called) comment was really an (unused) label?



-- 
Grant. . . .
unix || die




From toby at telegraphics.com.au  Wed Apr 19 08:40:32 2017
From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain)
Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2017 18:40:32 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] Bourne shell and comments
In-Reply-To: <021701d2b891$67f76180$37e62480$@ronnatalie.com>
References: <20170418204834.GA22198@minnie.tuhs.org>
 <020a01d2b885$94bd49c0$be37dd40$@ronnatalie.com>
 <c80774f1-25b2-eae0-09ae-d9eaf2ad787d@tnetconsulting.net>
 <021701d2b891$67f76180$37e62480$@ronnatalie.com>
Message-ID: <da306707-8161-7e1a-e886-ceb96bf8af4c@telegraphics.com.au>

On 2017-04-18 6:16 PM, Ron Natalie wrote:
> Yep, served both purposes.

Hacker parsimony!

>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: TUHS [mailto:tuhs-bounces at minnie.tuhs.org] On Behalf Of Grant Taylor
> Sent: Tuesday, April 18, 2017 5:46 PM
> To: tuhs at minnie.tuhs.org
> Subject: Re: [TUHS] Bourne shell and comments
>
> On 04/18/2017 02:51 PM, Ron Natalie wrote:
>> Was also the label for goto.
>
> Does that mean that the (so called) comment was really an (unused) label?
>
>
>



From john at nova.uucp  Wed Apr 19 08:34:30 2017
From: john at nova.uucp (John Floren)
Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2017 22:34:30 -0000 (UTC)
Subject: [TUHS] make inn automatically accept new group control messages
Message-ID: <slrnofd53m.smn.john@nova.jfloren.net>

Looks like INN isn't quite as trusting as CNews, so it doesn't
automatically create a group when it receives a control message.
Anyone know how to make it do that, or at least email me
to notify of the new group?

john


From lyndon at orthanc.ca  Wed Apr 19 10:50:05 2017
From: lyndon at orthanc.ca (Lyndon Nerenberg)
Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2017 17:50:05 -0700
Subject: [TUHS] Bourne shell and comments
In-Reply-To: <020a01d2b885$94bd49c0$be37dd40$@ronnatalie.com>
References: <20170418204834.GA22198@minnie.tuhs.org>
 <020a01d2b885$94bd49c0$be37dd40$@ronnatalie.com>
Message-ID: <DBD26EB7-FFAE-472F-9C71-27ECAC2A085E@orthanc.ca>

> Ron said:

> I still remember using : for a comment in the V6 shell.   Was also the label
> for goto.

What's cool about ':' vs. '#' is:

-----8<-----8<-----8<-----8<-----8<-----8<-----

function cd {
        command cd "$@" && setprompt
}

function setprompt {
        PS1=": "`id -un`@`hostname|sed 's;\..*$;;'`:'${PWD}; '; export PS1
}

setprompt

-----8<-----8<-----8<-----8<-----8<-----8<-----

Stick that in your .env and you get a snarf-and-barf'able shell prompt that evals as a noop.  Blatantly ripped off from plan9port IIRC.  I run this across all manner of *BSD and Solaris and Linux and it just works.

--lyndon



From wkt at seismo  Wed Apr 19 21:02:43 2017
From: wkt at seismo (Warren Toomey)
Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2017 11:02:43 GMT
Subject: [TUHS] make inn automatically accept new group control messages
References: <slrnofd53m.smn.john@nova.jfloren.net>
Message-ID: <oonLCK.8BI@seismo>

>From article <slrnofd53m.smn.john at nova.jfloren.net>, by John Floren <john at nova.uucp>:
> Looks like INN isn't quite as trusting as CNews, so it doesn't
> automatically create a group when it receives a control message.
> Anyone know how to make it do that, or at least email me
> to notify of the new group?
> 
> john

ctlinnd newgroup tuhs.tuhslist

I think that's what I did on my Inn system.
Cheers, Warrern


From dave at horsfall.org  Wed Apr 19 15:10:35 2017
From: dave at horsfall.org (Dave Horsfall)
Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2017 15:10:35 +1000 (EST)
Subject: [TUHS] make inn automatically accept new group control messages
In-Reply-To: <oonLCK.8BI@seismo>
References: <slrnofd53m.smn.john@nova.jfloren.net> <oonLCK.8BI@seismo>
Message-ID: <alpine.BSF.2.20.1704191508220.5445@aneurin.horsfall.org>

On Wed, 19 Apr 2017, Warren Toomey wrote:

> > Looks like INN isn't quite as trusting as CNews, so it doesn't 
> > automatically create a group when it receives a control message. 
> > Anyone know how to make it do that, or at least email me to notify of 
> > the new group?
> 
> ctlinnd newgroup tuhs.tuhslist
> 
> I think that's what I did on my Inn system.

(Gadzooks; first time I've seen Newsgroups: for ages!)

Isn't there a config file that says something like "this user can issue 
these ctl commands for these groups"?

-- 
Dave Horsfall DTM (VK2KFU)  "Those who don't understand security will suffer."


From andreas.kahari at icm.uu.se  Wed Apr 19 18:35:34 2017
From: andreas.kahari at icm.uu.se (Andreas Kusalananda =?iso-8859-1?B?S+Ro5HJp?=)
Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2017 10:35:34 +0200
Subject: [TUHS] Bourne shell and comments
In-Reply-To: <DBD26EB7-FFAE-472F-9C71-27ECAC2A085E@orthanc.ca>
References: <20170418204834.GA22198@minnie.tuhs.org>
 <020a01d2b885$94bd49c0$be37dd40$@ronnatalie.com>
 <DBD26EB7-FFAE-472F-9C71-27ECAC2A085E@orthanc.ca>
Message-ID: <20170419083534.tsphyyq56klgrsln@box.local>

On Tue, Apr 18, 2017 at 05:50:05PM -0700, Lyndon Nerenberg wrote:
> > Ron said:
> 
> > I still remember using : for a comment in the V6 shell.   Was also the label
> > for goto.
> 
> What's cool about ':' vs. '#' is:
> 
> -----8<-----8<-----8<-----8<-----8<-----8<-----
> 
> function cd {
>         command cd "$@" && setprompt
> }
> 
> function setprompt {
>         PS1=": "`id -un`@`hostname|sed 's;\..*$;;'`:'${PWD}; '; export PS1
> }
> 
> setprompt
> 
> -----8<-----8<-----8<-----8<-----8<-----8<-----
> 
> Stick that in your .env and you get a snarf-and-barf'able shell prompt that evals as a noop.  Blatantly ripped off from plan9port IIRC.  I run this across all manner of *BSD and Solaris and Linux and it just works.
> 
> --lyndon
> 
> 

I don't want to get into an argument in an off-topic sub-thread, but PS1
doesn't need to be exported, and since the shell evaluates the string,
you may as well use

LOGNAME=$(id -un)       # should already be set
HOSTNAME=$(hostname -s) # -s is fairly portable (not on Solaris tho)
PS1=': $LOGNAME@$HOSTNAME: $PWD; '

This saves having to execute id and hostname on every new prompt.

Also note that this has nothing to do with the : command.

Cheers


From dugo at xs4all.nl  Wed Apr 19 19:21:10 2017
From: dugo at xs4all.nl (Jacob Goense)
Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2017 11:21:10 +0200
Subject: [TUHS] make inn automatically accept new group control messages
In-Reply-To: <alpine.BSF.2.20.1704191508220.5445@aneurin.horsfall.org>
References: <slrnofd53m.smn.john@nova.jfloren.net> <oonLCK.8BI@seismo>
 <alpine.BSF.2.20.1704191508220.5445@aneurin.horsfall.org>
Message-ID: <cff8d22be0208fae471cb86c2f9836ea@xs4all.nl>

On 2017-04-19 07:10, Dave Horsfall wrote:
> On Wed, 19 Apr 2017, Warren Toomey wrote:
> 
>> > Looks like INN isn't quite as trusting as CNews, so it doesn't
>> > automatically create a group when it receives a control message.
>> > Anyone know how to make it do that, or at least email me to notify of
>> > the new group?
>> 
>> ctlinnd newgroup tuhs.tuhslist
>> 
>> I think that's what I did on my Inn system.
> 
> (Gadzooks; first time I've seen Newsgroups: for ages!)
> 
> Isn't there a config file that says something like "this user can issue
> these ctl commands for these groups"?

I have not touched INN in ages either. I'm sure you need to be in
control.ctl to configure this. It will be a while until we see
control message abuse on this August network, so you could probably
put in something like newgroup:*:*:doit for now.


From gtaylor at tnetconsulting.net  Thu Apr 20 02:31:53 2017
From: gtaylor at tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor)
Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2017 10:31:53 -0600
Subject: [TUHS] Bourne shell and comments
In-Reply-To: <DBD26EB7-FFAE-472F-9C71-27ECAC2A085E@orthanc.ca>
References: <20170418204834.GA22198@minnie.tuhs.org>
 <020a01d2b885$94bd49c0$be37dd40$@ronnatalie.com>
 <DBD26EB7-FFAE-472F-9C71-27ECAC2A085E@orthanc.ca>
Message-ID: <ecd19e28-c96d-f938-fdb3-0b9a983ab56c@tnetconsulting.net>

On 04/18/2017 06:50 PM, Lyndon Nerenberg wrote:
> What's cool about ':' vs. '#' is:
...
> Stick that in your .env and you get a snarf-and-barf'able shell
> prompt that evals as a noop.  Blatantly ripped off from plan9port
> IIRC.  I run this across all manner of *BSD and Solaris and Linux and
> it just works.

I think you're effectively doing the same thing that I'm doing by having 
my prompt start with '#', thus turning copy & paste ""errors into 
pasting comments.  Just a difference of a '#' comment character and a 
':' label.

I see little difference between ':' and '#' in this case.

Please help me understand if I'm wrong.



-- 
Grant. . . .
unix || die

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From andreas.kahari at icm.uu.se  Thu Apr 20 02:59:06 2017
From: andreas.kahari at icm.uu.se (Andreas Kusalananda =?iso-8859-1?B?S+Ro5HJp?=)
Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2017 18:59:06 +0200
Subject: [TUHS] Bourne shell and comments
In-Reply-To: <ecd19e28-c96d-f938-fdb3-0b9a983ab56c@tnetconsulting.net>
References: <20170418204834.GA22198@minnie.tuhs.org>
 <020a01d2b885$94bd49c0$be37dd40$@ronnatalie.com>
 <DBD26EB7-FFAE-472F-9C71-27ECAC2A085E@orthanc.ca>
 <ecd19e28-c96d-f938-fdb3-0b9a983ab56c@tnetconsulting.net>
Message-ID: <20170419165906.op3niqygjmuoexn5@box.local>

On Wed, Apr 19, 2017 at 10:31:53AM -0600, Grant Taylor wrote:
> On 04/18/2017 06:50 PM, Lyndon Nerenberg wrote:
> > What's cool about ':' vs. '#' is:
> ...
> > Stick that in your .env and you get a snarf-and-barf'able shell
> > prompt that evals as a noop.  Blatantly ripped off from plan9port
> > IIRC.  I run this across all manner of *BSD and Solaris and Linux and
> > it just works.
> 
> I think you're effectively doing the same thing that I'm doing by having my
> prompt start with '#', thus turning copy & paste ""errors into pasting
> comments.  Just a difference of a '#' comment character and a ':' label.

Ah, thanks for explaining "snarf-and-barf"... I did a fast forward at
that point.  Sorry Lyndon...

Is this a reason why "#" was chosen as the root prompt, by the way?
POSIX mentions that "a sufficiently powerful user should be reminded of
that power by having an alternate prompt" but says little else...



> 
> I see little difference between ':' and '#' in this case.
> 
> Please help me understand if I'm wrong.
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Grant. . . .
> unix || die
> 




From bakul at bitblocks.com  Thu Apr 20 03:36:23 2017
From: bakul at bitblocks.com (Bakul Shah)
Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2017 10:36:23 -0700
Subject: [TUHS] Bourne shell and comments
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 19 Apr 2017 10:31:53 MDT."
 <ecd19e28-c96d-f938-fdb3-0b9a983ab56c@tnetconsulting.net>
References: <20170418204834.GA22198@minnie.tuhs.org>
 <020a01d2b885$94bd49c0$be37dd40$@ronnatalie.com>
 <DBD26EB7-FFAE-472F-9C71-27ECAC2A085E@orthanc.ca>
 <ecd19e28-c96d-f938-fdb3-0b9a983ab56c@tnetconsulting.net>
Message-ID: <20170419173623.7097B124AEAD@mail.bitblocks.com>

On Wed, 19 Apr 2017 10:31:53 MDT Grant Taylor <gtaylor at tnetconsulting.net> wrote:
> I think you're effectively doing the same thing that I'm doing by having
> 
> my prompt start with '#', thus turning copy & paste ""errors into
> pasting comments.  Just a difference of a '#' comment character and a
> ':' label.
> 
> I see little difference between ':' and '#' in this case.
> 
> Please help me understand if I'm wrong.

To see the difference try this:

# echo one; echo two
: echo one; echo two

You can select the whole line starting with : and have the
command re-excute.  This is more useful in rc since it doesn't
store history or have ^n/^p etc bound to scrolling through
history.


From gtaylor at tnetconsulting.net  Thu Apr 20 03:59:20 2017
From: gtaylor at tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor)
Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2017 11:59:20 -0600
Subject: [TUHS] Bourne shell and comments
In-Reply-To: <20170419173623.7097B124AEAD@mail.bitblocks.com>
References: <20170418204834.GA22198@minnie.tuhs.org>
 <020a01d2b885$94bd49c0$be37dd40$@ronnatalie.com>
 <DBD26EB7-FFAE-472F-9C71-27ECAC2A085E@orthanc.ca>
 <ecd19e28-c96d-f938-fdb3-0b9a983ab56c@tnetconsulting.net>
 <20170419173623.7097B124AEAD@mail.bitblocks.com>
Message-ID: <6b71192b-3607-ce8d-8cd9-b316ed627592@tnetconsulting.net>

On 04/19/2017 11:36 AM, Bakul Shah wrote:
> To see the difference try this:
>
> # echo one; echo two
> : echo one; echo two

*nod*

> You can select the whole line starting with : and have the
> command re-excute.

Ah.  That's contrary to why I use '#'.

I specifically want the command line to not be re-executed.

I purposefully select the portion of the command line that I want, 
paste, and execute.

> This is more useful in rc since it doesn't
> store history or have ^n/^p etc bound to scrolling through
> history.

This makes perfect sense in the use case you describe.

Thank you for the explanation.



-- 
Grant. . . .
unix || die

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From steve at sk2.org  Thu Apr 20 04:36:47 2017
From: steve at sk2.org (Stephen Kitt)
Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2017 20:36:47 +0200
Subject: [TUHS] Bourne shell and comments
In-Reply-To: <c80774f1-25b2-eae0-09ae-d9eaf2ad787d@tnetconsulting.net>
References: <20170418204834.GA22198@minnie.tuhs.org>
 <020a01d2b885$94bd49c0$be37dd40$@ronnatalie.com>
 <c80774f1-25b2-eae0-09ae-d9eaf2ad787d@tnetconsulting.net>
Message-ID: <20170419203647.710e856a@heffalump.sk2.org>

On Tue, 18 Apr 2017 15:45:36 -0600, Grant Taylor <gtaylor at tnetconsulting.net>
wrote:
> On 04/18/2017 02:51 PM, Ron Natalie wrote:
> > Was also the label for goto.  
> 
> Does that mean that the (so called) comment was really an (unused) label?

Not Unix, but on DOS (on PCs) this was a common trick — it was especially
appreciated because : as a comment prefix (often doubled, so it couldn’t be
mistaken for a goto label) was faster to process than the official REM (which
was a command which had to be executed).

Regards,

Stephen


From doug at cs.dartmouth.edu  Thu Apr 20 05:18:22 2017
From: doug at cs.dartmouth.edu (Doug McIlroy)
Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2017 15:18:22 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] Bourne shell and comments
Message-ID: <201704191918.v3JJIM88026267@coolidge.cs.Dartmouth.EDU>

> Is this a reason why "#" was chosen as the root prompt, by the way?

No. # was adopted as superuser prompt  before the shell had a
comment convention.

Doug


From krewat at kilonet.net  Thu Apr 20 06:35:40 2017
From: krewat at kilonet.net (Arthur Krewat)
Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2017 16:35:40 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] Bourne shell and comments
In-Reply-To: <20170419203647.710e856a@heffalump.sk2.org>
References: <20170418204834.GA22198@minnie.tuhs.org>
 <020a01d2b885$94bd49c0$be37dd40$@ronnatalie.com>
 <c80774f1-25b2-eae0-09ae-d9eaf2ad787d@tnetconsulting.net>
 <20170419203647.710e856a@heffalump.sk2.org>
Message-ID: <2428566d-5998-1688-1bf5-2c369d99350e@kilonet.net>

This is all very interesting. Back when I was in high school, I 
exploited a daemon on the PDP-10 we used. MIC. It allowed you to 
basically run a "shell script" using a PTY as yourself, and it would 
generate a log, and you could peruse it at your leisure. The exploit had 
to do with the fact that PTYs had special privileges because of some 
custom security alterations  the consulting firm made to TOPS-10.

After the consulting firm got wind of what I did, they asked me to write 
a replacement that was more secure. While the original MIC had a lot of 
functionality in it, including labels like GOTHERE: (not the trailing 
colon), and it was used to compile the monitor (TOPS-10), they just 
needed something quick-and-dirty that students could use that wouldn't 
open up a security hole. I basically just forced the script into the 
terminals input buffer and let the monitor execute it line-by-line, 
instead of using a PTY.

So while I was creating this new MIC, I figured why not put the colon at 
the beginning of the line, it was easier to find on-the-fly.

Imagine my surprise when I got into DOS a year or two later and they 
used leading colons for labels in batch files.

Not having any access whatsoever to any flavor of UNIX at the time, this 
is the first I've heard that leading colons were used for labels outside 
of DOS and my MIC-lite :)



On 4/19/2017 2:36 PM, Stephen Kitt wrote:
> On Tue, 18 Apr 2017 15:45:36 -0600, Grant Taylor <gtaylor at tnetconsulting.net>
> wrote:
>> On 04/18/2017 02:51 PM, Ron Natalie wrote:
>>> Was also the label for goto.
>> Does that mean that the (so called) comment was really an (unused) label?
> Not Unix, but on DOS (on PCs) this was a common trick — it was especially
> appreciated because : as a comment prefix (often doubled, so it couldn’t be
> mistaken for a goto label) was faster to process than the official REM (which
> was a command which had to be executed).
>
> Regards,
>
> Stephen
>
>



From mascheck at in-ulm.de  Thu Apr 20 07:02:24 2017
From: mascheck at in-ulm.de (Sven Mascheck)
Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2017 23:02:24 +0200
Subject: [TUHS] Bourne shell and comments
In-Reply-To: <20170418204834.GA22198@minnie.tuhs.org>
References: <20170418204834.GA22198@minnie.tuhs.org>
Message-ID: <20170419210224.GA701493@lisa.in-ulm.de>

On Wed, Apr 19, 2017 at 06:48:34AM +1000, Warren Toomey wrote:
> I was trying to configure C news on 2.9BSD today and I found that its
> Bourne shell doesn't grok # comments. The Bourne shell in 2.11BSD does.
> 
> So I thought: when did the Bourne (and other) shells first grok # as
> indicating a comment? Was this in response to #! being added to the
> kernel, or was it the other way around? And was the choice of #!
> arbitrary, or was it borrowed from somewhere else?
> 
> Datum point: 2.9BSD's kernel can recognise #!, but the sh can't recognise #.

Dennis' email about #! to Berkeley is dated Jan 10 '80.
I've never seen any hint, how the bang in #! was chosen. Looks racy at least..
#! on BSDs was available as compile time option in 4.0BSD (~Oct '80?)
and default on 4.2BSD (~Sep '83).
BTW, AFAIK, the #! implementation in 2.8BSD (compile time option) is not
from research but seems to come from U.S. Geological Survey, Menlo Park.

The BSD csh hack in sh&csh (# special as first character in a file, service.c),
came with 3BSD, also in '80.

I found # as comment character in the BSD-sh first in CSRG 4.1.snap
(~Apr '81, word.c). And at Bell Labs, as mentioned, it came with SysIII, also ~81.
BTW, 4.3BSD ('86), and thus 2.10 BSD, brought an interesting change:
# is only recognized in non-interactive mode. In interactive mode
you actually get this:
  $ # echo x
  #: not found
This was not changed in 4BSD until sh was replaced by ash in 4.3 Net/2.

Sven
-- 
https://www.in-ulm.de/~mascheck/bourne/
https://www.in-ulm.de/~mascheck/various/shebang/


From steffen at sdaoden.eu  Thu Apr 20 08:07:28 2017
From: steffen at sdaoden.eu (Steffen Nurpmeso)
Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2017 00:07:28 +0200
Subject: [TUHS] Bourne shell and comments
In-Reply-To: <20170419210224.GA701493@lisa.in-ulm.de>
References: <20170418204834.GA22198@minnie.tuhs.org>
 <20170419210224.GA701493@lisa.in-ulm.de>
Message-ID: <20170419220728.H4VbN%steffen@sdaoden.eu>

Sven Mascheck <mascheck at in-ulm.de> wrote:
 |On Wed, Apr 19, 2017 at 06:48:34AM +1000, Warren Toomey wrote:
 |> I was trying to configure C news on 2.9BSD today and I found that its
 |> Bourne shell doesn't grok # comments. The Bourne shell in 2.11BSD does.
 |> 
 |> So I thought: when did the Bourne (and other) shells first grok # as
 |> indicating a comment? Was this in response to #! being added to the
 |> kernel, or was it the other way around? And was the choice of #!
 |> arbitrary, or was it borrowed from somewhere else?
 |> 
 |> Datum point: 2.9BSD's kernel can recognise #!, but the sh can't recognise \
 |> #.
 |
 |Dennis' email about #! to Berkeley is dated Jan 10 '80.
 |I've never seen any hint, how the bang in #! was chosen. Looks racy \
 |at least..
 |#! on BSDs was available as compile time option in 4.0BSD (~Oct '80?)
 |and default on 4.2BSD (~Sep '83).
 |BTW, AFAIK, the #! implementation in 2.8BSD (compile time option) is not
 |from research but seems to come from U.S. Geological Survey, Menlo Park.
 |
 |The BSD csh hack in sh&csh (# special as first character in a file, \
 |service.c),
 |came with 3BSD, also in '80.
 |
 |I found # as comment character in the BSD-sh first in CSRG 4.1.snap
 |(~Apr '81, word.c). And at Bell Labs, as mentioned, it came with SysIII, \
 |also ~81.
 |BTW, 4.3BSD ('86), and thus 2.10 BSD, brought an interesting change:
 |# is only recognized in non-interactive mode. In interactive mode
 |you actually get this:
 |  $ # echo x
 |  #: not found
 |This was not changed in 4BSD until sh was replaced by ash in 4.3 Net/2.

Hmm.  Kurt Shoens added # as a null() saying "The do nothing
command for comments." before that (2BSD, file copyright 1979).

--steffen


From ag4ve.us at gmail.com  Thu Apr 20 10:31:29 2017
From: ag4ve.us at gmail.com (shawn wilson)
Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2017 20:31:29 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] Bourne shell and comments
In-Reply-To: <20170419220728.H4VbN%steffen@sdaoden.eu>
References: <20170418204834.GA22198@minnie.tuhs.org>
 <20170419210224.GA701493@lisa.in-ulm.de>
 <20170419220728.H4VbN%steffen@sdaoden.eu>
Message-ID: <CAH_OBid2VhKdO-idijLH2fWiJPerSSxx5Y9StGCkYduhmB62xw@mail.gmail.com>

This is a bit old (hope someone has archived it incase the account is ever
deleted) but this is the shebang history reference I've ref'd a few times
(comes right after the Wikipedia hits when searching for "shebang history"
in Google - for me anyway).

https://www.in-ulm.de/~mascheck/various/shebang/

It'd be interesting to hear if the group finds any inaccuracies or knows of
anything more thorough on the topic.

On Apr 19, 2017 6:05 PM, "Steffen Nurpmeso" <steffen at sdaoden.eu> wrote:

> Sven Mascheck <mascheck at in-ulm.de> wrote:
>  |On Wed, Apr 19, 2017 at 06:48:34AM +1000, Warren Toomey wrote:
>  |> I was trying to configure C news on 2.9BSD today and I found that its
>  |> Bourne shell doesn't grok # comments. The Bourne shell in 2.11BSD does.
>  |>
>  |> So I thought: when did the Bourne (and other) shells first grok # as
>  |> indicating a comment? Was this in response to #! being added to the
>  |> kernel, or was it the other way around? And was the choice of #!
>  |> arbitrary, or was it borrowed from somewhere else?
>  |>
>  |> Datum point: 2.9BSD's kernel can recognise #!, but the sh can't
> recognise \
>  |> #.
>  |
>  |Dennis' email about #! to Berkeley is dated Jan 10 '80.
>  |I've never seen any hint, how the bang in #! was chosen. Looks racy \
>  |at least..
>  |#! on BSDs was available as compile time option in 4.0BSD (~Oct '80?)
>  |and default on 4.2BSD (~Sep '83).
>  |BTW, AFAIK, the #! implementation in 2.8BSD (compile time option) is not
>  |from research but seems to come from U.S. Geological Survey, Menlo Park.
>  |
>  |The BSD csh hack in sh&csh (# special as first character in a file, \
>  |service.c),
>  |came with 3BSD, also in '80.
>  |
>  |I found # as comment character in the BSD-sh first in CSRG 4.1.snap
>  |(~Apr '81, word.c). And at Bell Labs, as mentioned, it came with SysIII,
> \
>  |also ~81.
>  |BTW, 4.3BSD ('86), and thus 2.10 BSD, brought an interesting change:
>  |# is only recognized in non-interactive mode. In interactive mode
>  |you actually get this:
>  |  $ # echo x
>  |  #: not found
>  |This was not changed in 4BSD until sh was replaced by ash in 4.3 Net/2.
>
> Hmm.  Kurt Shoens added # as a null() saying "The do nothing
> command for comments." before that (2BSD, file copyright 1979).
>
> --steffen
>
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From ag4ve.us at gmail.com  Thu Apr 20 10:35:27 2017
From: ag4ve.us at gmail.com (shawn wilson)
Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2017 20:35:27 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] Bourne shell and comments
In-Reply-To: <CAH_OBid2VhKdO-idijLH2fWiJPerSSxx5Y9StGCkYduhmB62xw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20170418204834.GA22198@minnie.tuhs.org>
 <20170419210224.GA701493@lisa.in-ulm.de>
 <20170419220728.H4VbN%steffen@sdaoden.eu>
 <CAH_OBid2VhKdO-idijLH2fWiJPerSSxx5Y9StGCkYduhmB62xw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAH_OBieK7g9enBpEL_8QTYZ8bJpLiQNrZb33=M8U=qa2jRC78Q@mail.gmail.com>

Heh apparently I missed Sven's links below his name... Well, nice writeup
:)

On Apr 19, 2017 8:31 PM, "shawn wilson" <ag4ve.us at gmail.com> wrote:

This is a bit old (hope someone has archived it incase the account is ever
deleted) but this is the shebang history reference I've ref'd a few times
(comes right after the Wikipedia hits when searching for "shebang history"
in Google - for me anyway).

https://www.in-ulm.de/~mascheck/various/shebang/

It'd be interesting to hear if the group finds any inaccuracies or knows of
anything more thorough on the topic.

On Apr 19, 2017 6:05 PM, "Steffen Nurpmeso" <steffen at sdaoden.eu> wrote:

> Sven Mascheck <mascheck at in-ulm.de> wrote:
>  |On Wed, Apr 19, 2017 at 06:48:34AM +1000, Warren Toomey wrote:
>  |> I was trying to configure C news on 2.9BSD today and I found that its
>  |> Bourne shell doesn't grok # comments. The Bourne shell in 2.11BSD does.
>  |>
>  |> So I thought: when did the Bourne (and other) shells first grok # as
>  |> indicating a comment? Was this in response to #! being added to the
>  |> kernel, or was it the other way around? And was the choice of #!
>  |> arbitrary, or was it borrowed from somewhere else?
>  |>
>  |> Datum point: 2.9BSD's kernel can recognise #!, but the sh can't
> recognise \
>  |> #.
>  |
>  |Dennis' email about #! to Berkeley is dated Jan 10 '80.
>  |I've never seen any hint, how the bang in #! was chosen. Looks racy \
>  |at least..
>  |#! on BSDs was available as compile time option in 4.0BSD (~Oct '80?)
>  |and default on 4.2BSD (~Sep '83).
>  |BTW, AFAIK, the #! implementation in 2.8BSD (compile time option) is not
>  |from research but seems to come from U.S. Geological Survey, Menlo Park.
>  |
>  |The BSD csh hack in sh&csh (# special as first character in a file, \
>  |service.c),
>  |came with 3BSD, also in '80.
>  |
>  |I found # as comment character in the BSD-sh first in CSRG 4.1.snap
>  |(~Apr '81, word.c). And at Bell Labs, as mentioned, it came with SysIII,
> \
>  |also ~81.
>  |BTW, 4.3BSD ('86), and thus 2.10 BSD, brought an interesting change:
>  |# is only recognized in non-interactive mode. In interactive mode
>  |you actually get this:
>  |  $ # echo x
>  |  #: not found
>  |This was not changed in 4BSD until sh was replaced by ash in 4.3 Net/2.
>
> Hmm.  Kurt Shoens added # as a null() saying "The do nothing
> command for comments." before that (2BSD, file copyright 1979).
>
> --steffen
>
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From fair-tuhs at netbsd.org  Thu Apr 20 11:42:42 2017
From: fair-tuhs at netbsd.org (Erik E. Fair)
Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2017 18:42:42 -0700
Subject: [TUHS] Zilog Z80 Unix
Message-ID: <19663.1492652562@cesium.clock.org>

I have a memory of having seen a Zilog Z-80 (not Z8002 like the Onyx) based Unix, possibly v6, at a vendor show or conference - perhaps the West Coast Computer Faire (WCCF) in the late 1970s or early 1980s.

I recall asking the people in the booth how they managed without an MMU, and don't recall their answer. I do remember thinking that since Unix had "grown up" with MMUs to stomp on obvious pointer mistakes, the software ought to be relatively well-behaved ... you know: not trying to play "core war" with itself?

I searched the TUHS archives cursorily with Google to see if this has been previously mentioned, but pretty much all Z80 CPU references have for its use in "smart" I/O devices back in the day.

Does anyone else remember this Z80 Unix and who did it? Or maybe that it was a clone of some kind ... ?

	looking for a little history,

	Erik Fair


From jsteve at superglobalmegacorp.com  Thu Apr 20 12:54:12 2017
From: jsteve at superglobalmegacorp.com (Jason Stevens)
Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2017 10:54:12 +0800
Subject: [TUHS] Zilog Z80 Unix
In-Reply-To: <19663.1492652562@cesium.clock.org>
References: <19663.1492652562@cesium.clock.org>
Message-ID: <B2E4A430-2425-4AE8-A638-95430747FD31@superglobalmegacorp.com>

Maybe it was UZI?

https://github.com/chettrick/uzics

I know it's been around..

On April 20, 2017 9:42:42 AM GMT+08:00, "Erik E. Fair" <fair-tuhs at netbsd.org> wrote:
>I have a memory of having seen a Zilog Z-80 (not Z8002 like the Onyx)
>based Unix, possibly v6, at a vendor show or conference - perhaps the
>West Coast Computer Faire (WCCF) in the late 1970s or early 1980s.
>
>I recall asking the people in the booth how they managed without an
>MMU, and don't recall their answer. I do remember thinking that since
>Unix had "grown up" with MMUs to stomp on obvious pointer mistakes, the
>software ought to be relatively well-behaved ... you know: not trying
>to play "core war" with itself?
>
>I searched the TUHS archives cursorily with Google to see if this has
>been previously mentioned, but pretty much all Z80 CPU references have
>for its use in "smart" I/O devices back in the day.
>
>Does anyone else remember this Z80 Unix and who did it? Or maybe that
>it was a clone of some kind ... ?
>
>	looking for a little history,
>
>	Erik Fair

-- 
Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
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From jsteve at superglobalmegacorp.com  Thu Apr 20 12:54:12 2017
From: jsteve at superglobalmegacorp.com (Jason Stevens)
Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2017 10:54:12 +0800
Subject: [TUHS] Zilog Z80 Unix
In-Reply-To: <19663.1492652562@cesium.clock.org>
References: <19663.1492652562@cesium.clock.org>
Message-ID: <B2E4A430-2425-4AE8-A638-95430747FD31@superglobalmegacorp.com>

Maybe it was UZI?

https://github.com/chettrick/uzics

I know it's been around..

On April 20, 2017 9:42:42 AM GMT+08:00, "Erik E. Fair" <fair-tuhs at netbsd.org> wrote:
>I have a memory of having seen a Zilog Z-80 (not Z8002 like the Onyx)
>based Unix, possibly v6, at a vendor show or conference - perhaps the
>West Coast Computer Faire (WCCF) in the late 1970s or early 1980s.
>
>I recall asking the people in the booth how they managed without an
>MMU, and don't recall their answer. I do remember thinking that since
>Unix had "grown up" with MMUs to stomp on obvious pointer mistakes, the
>software ought to be relatively well-behaved ... you know: not trying
>to play "core war" with itself?
>
>I searched the TUHS archives cursorily with Google to see if this has
>been previously mentioned, but pretty much all Z80 CPU references have
>for its use in "smart" I/O devices back in the day.
>
>Does anyone else remember this Z80 Unix and who did it? Or maybe that
>it was a clone of some kind ... ?
>
>	looking for a little history,
>
>	Erik Fair

-- 
Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
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From bakul at bitblocks.com  Thu Apr 20 13:09:13 2017
From: bakul at bitblocks.com (Bakul Shah)
Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2017 20:09:13 -0700
Subject: [TUHS] Zilog Z80 Unix
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 19 Apr 2017 18:42:42 PDT."
 <19663.1492652562@cesium.clock.org>
References: <19663.1492652562@cesium.clock.org>
Message-ID: <20170420030913.A3CDF124AEAA@mail.bitblocks.com>

On Wed, 19 Apr 2017 18:42:42 PDT "Erik E. Fair" <fair-tuhs at netbsd.org> wrote:
> I have a memory of having seen a Zilog Z-80 (not Z8002 like the Onyx) based =
> Unix, possibly v6, at a vendor show or conference - perhaps the West Coast =
> Computer Faire (WCCF) in the late 1970s or early 1980s.
> 
> I recall asking the people in the booth how they managed without an MMU, and 
> don't recall their answer. I do remember thinking that since Unix had "grown 
> up" with MMUs to stomp on obvious pointer mistakes, the software ought to be 
> relatively well-behaved ... you know: not trying to play "core war" with =
> itself?
> 
> I searched the TUHS archives cursorily with Google to see if this has been
> previously mentioned, but pretty much all Z80 CPU references have for its use
> in "smart" I/O devices back in the day.
> 
> Does anyone else remember this Z80 Unix and who did it? Or maybe that it was 
> a clone of some kind ... ?
> 
> 	looking for a little history,
> 
> 	Erik Fair

You may be thinking of Cromemco.


From gregg.drwho8 at gmail.com  Thu Apr 20 13:40:30 2017
From: gregg.drwho8 at gmail.com (Gregg Levine)
Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2017 23:40:30 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] Zilog Z80 Unix
In-Reply-To: <20170420030913.A3CDF124AEAA@mail.bitblocks.com>
References: <19663.1492652562@cesium.clock.org>
 <20170420030913.A3CDF124AEAA@mail.bitblocks.com>
Message-ID: <CAC5iaNFwq+xwBgZuaBPemGs=7MQy=KE0f3Vffg1KLPj+_VpPOA@mail.gmail.com>

Hello!
That was also a board vendor. FYI: The first GASP [GetAway Special
Program] a Space Shuttle payload made use of such a board.
-----
Gregg C Levine gregg.drwho8 at gmail.com
"This signature fought the Time Wars, time and again."


On Wed, Apr 19, 2017 at 11:09 PM, Bakul Shah <bakul at bitblocks.com> wrote:
> On Wed, 19 Apr 2017 18:42:42 PDT "Erik E. Fair" <fair-tuhs at netbsd.org> wrote:
>> I have a memory of having seen a Zilog Z-80 (not Z8002 like the Onyx) based =
>> Unix, possibly v6, at a vendor show or conference - perhaps the West Coast =
>> Computer Faire (WCCF) in the late 1970s or early 1980s.
>>
>> I recall asking the people in the booth how they managed without an MMU, and
>> don't recall their answer. I do remember thinking that since Unix had "grown
>> up" with MMUs to stomp on obvious pointer mistakes, the software ought to be
>> relatively well-behaved ... you know: not trying to play "core war" with =
>> itself?
>>
>> I searched the TUHS archives cursorily with Google to see if this has been
>> previously mentioned, but pretty much all Z80 CPU references have for its use
>> in "smart" I/O devices back in the day.
>>
>> Does anyone else remember this Z80 Unix and who did it? Or maybe that it was
>> a clone of some kind ... ?
>>
>>       looking for a little history,
>>
>>       Erik Fair
>
> You may be thinking of Cromemco.


From akosela at andykosela.com  Thu Apr 20 13:50:15 2017
From: akosela at andykosela.com (Andy Kosela)
Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2017 22:50:15 -0500
Subject: [TUHS] Bourne shell and comments
In-Reply-To: <CAH_OBieK7g9enBpEL_8QTYZ8bJpLiQNrZb33=M8U=qa2jRC78Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20170418204834.GA22198@minnie.tuhs.org>
 <20170419210224.GA701493@lisa.in-ulm.de>
 <20170419220728.H4VbN%steffen@sdaoden.eu>
 <CAH_OBid2VhKdO-idijLH2fWiJPerSSxx5Y9StGCkYduhmB62xw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH_OBieK7g9enBpEL_8QTYZ8bJpLiQNrZb33=M8U=qa2jRC78Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALMnNGg-ynB-EV=8DzioY1ws2nJuN+DQRNaBbNp6+XyQ2=WR5A@mail.gmail.com>

On Wednesday, April 19, 2017, shawn wilson <ag4ve.us at gmail.com> wrote:

> Heh apparently I missed Sven's links below his name... Well, nice writeup
> :)
>

Yes indeed.  So while we are at it can we settle down once and for all why
and when the term "shebang" originated?  Is it derived from "shell bang",
or "sharp bang"?

--Andy
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From unix at deranged.schneider.org  Thu Apr 20 14:32:16 2017
From: unix at deranged.schneider.org (Rik Schneider)
Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2017 21:32:16 -0700
Subject: [TUHS] Zilog Z80 Unix
In-Reply-To: <20170420030913.A3CDF124AEAA@mail.bitblocks.com>
References: <19663.1492652562@cesium.clock.org>
 <20170420030913.A3CDF124AEAA@mail.bitblocks.com>
Message-ID: <CAKr56SwoZK9ADmrVTLJtFfmSP49NtEWd=CJVvo=fd-cuh=G5ZA@mail.gmail.com>

Cromix was the name of Cromenco's Unix Like OS.

http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/crom/cromix.jpg

On Wed, Apr 19, 2017 at 8:09 PM, Bakul Shah <bakul at bitblocks.com> wrote:
> On Wed, 19 Apr 2017 18:42:42 PDT "Erik E. Fair" <fair-tuhs at netbsd.org> wrote:
>> I have a memory of having seen a Zilog Z-80 (not Z8002 like the Onyx) based =
>> Unix, possibly v6, at a vendor show or conference - perhaps the West Coast =
>> Computer Faire (WCCF) in the late 1970s or early 1980s.
>>
>> I recall asking the people in the booth how they managed without an MMU, and
>> don't recall their answer. I do remember thinking that since Unix had "grown
>> up" with MMUs to stomp on obvious pointer mistakes, the software ought to be
>> relatively well-behaved ... you know: not trying to play "core war" with =
>> itself?
>>
>> I searched the TUHS archives cursorily with Google to see if this has been
>> previously mentioned, but pretty much all Z80 CPU references have for its use
>> in "smart" I/O devices back in the day.
>>
>> Does anyone else remember this Z80 Unix and who did it? Or maybe that it was
>> a clone of some kind ... ?
>>
>>       looking for a little history,
>>
>>       Erik Fair
>
> You may be thinking of Cromemco.


From bakul at bitblocks.com  Thu Apr 20 14:34:10 2017
From: bakul at bitblocks.com (Bakul Shah)
Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2017 21:34:10 -0700
Subject: [TUHS] Zilog Z80 Unix
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 19 Apr 2017 23:40:30 EDT."
 <CAC5iaNFwq+xwBgZuaBPemGs=7MQy=KE0f3Vffg1KLPj+_VpPOA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <19663.1492652562@cesium.clock.org>
 <20170420030913.A3CDF124AEAA@mail.bitblocks.com>
 <CAC5iaNFwq+xwBgZuaBPemGs=7MQy=KE0f3Vffg1KLPj+_VpPOA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20170420043410.815CC124AEAD@mail.bitblocks.com>

Yes, Cromemco was the company, Cromix their unix like OS.

IIRC, in 1981-83 timeframe someone I worked with had mentioned
he used to work at Cromemco and that they had a unix like OS
called Cromix. Cromemco were in Mountain View so likely they
were at the WCCF.

Even though z80 could only address 64k, their system had a
bank select under s/w control & upto 512K of RAM could be
added.  Z80 didn't have a supervisor mode but still, the bank
select must have  afforded enouh protection from bad pointers
crashing random processes.

On Wed, 19 Apr 2017 23:40:30 EDT Gregg Levine <gregg.drwho8 at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hello!
> That was also a board vendor. FYI: The first GASP [GetAway Special
> Program] a Space Shuttle payload made use of such a board.
> -----
> Gregg C Levine gregg.drwho8 at gmail.com
> "This signature fought the Time Wars, time and again."
> 
> 
> On Wed, Apr 19, 2017 at 11:09 PM, Bakul Shah <bakul at bitblocks.com> wrote:
> > On Wed, 19 Apr 2017 18:42:42 PDT "Erik E. Fair" <fair-tuhs at netbsd.org> wrote:
> >> I have a memory of having seen a Zilog Z-80 (not Z8002 like the Onyx) based 
> >> Unix, possibly v6, at a vendor show or conference - perhaps the West Coast
> >> Computer Faire (WCCF) in the late 1970s or early 1980s.
> >>
> >> I recall asking the people in the booth how they managed without an MMU, and
> >> don't recall their answer. I do remember thinking that since Unix had "grown
> >> up" with MMUs to stomp on obvious pointer mistakes, the software ought to be
> >> relatively well-behaved ... you know: not trying to play "core war" with 
> >> itself?
> >>
> >> I searched the TUHS archives cursorily with Google to see if this has been
> >> previously mentioned, but pretty much all Z80 CPU references have for its use
> >> in "smart" I/O devices back in the day.
> >>
> >> Does anyone else remember this Z80 Unix and who did it? Or maybe that it was
> >> a clone of some kind ... ?
> >>
> >>       looking for a little history,
> >>
> >>       Erik Fair
> >
> > You may be thinking of Cromemco.


From imp at bsdimp.com  Thu Apr 20 14:47:19 2017
From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh)
Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2017 22:47:19 -0600
Subject: [TUHS] Bourne shell and comments
In-Reply-To: <CALMnNGg-ynB-EV=8DzioY1ws2nJuN+DQRNaBbNp6+XyQ2=WR5A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20170418204834.GA22198@minnie.tuhs.org>
 <20170419210224.GA701493@lisa.in-ulm.de>
 <20170419220728.H4VbN%steffen@sdaoden.eu>
 <CAH_OBid2VhKdO-idijLH2fWiJPerSSxx5Y9StGCkYduhmB62xw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH_OBieK7g9enBpEL_8QTYZ8bJpLiQNrZb33=M8U=qa2jRC78Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALMnNGg-ynB-EV=8DzioY1ws2nJuN+DQRNaBbNp6+XyQ2=WR5A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CANCZdfptwXYU0KL72tGwKyv+c=zLZBQy8BBgCCwPdtpMhFOz_Q@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Apr 19, 2017 at 9:50 PM, Andy Kosela <akosela at andykosela.com> wrote:
>
> On Wednesday, April 19, 2017, shawn wilson <ag4ve.us at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Heh apparently I missed Sven's links below his name... Well, nice writeup
>> :)
>
>
> Yes indeed.  So while we are at it can we settle down once and for all why
> and when the term "shebang" originated?  Is it derived from "shell bang", or
> "sharp bang"?

That would be too neat... And these things get harder with time...

Warner


From imp at bsdimp.com  Thu Apr 20 14:50:16 2017
From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh)
Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2017 22:50:16 -0600
Subject: [TUHS] Zilog Z80 Unix
In-Reply-To: <20170420043410.815CC124AEAD@mail.bitblocks.com>
References: <19663.1492652562@cesium.clock.org>
 <20170420030913.A3CDF124AEAA@mail.bitblocks.com>
 <CAC5iaNFwq+xwBgZuaBPemGs=7MQy=KE0f3Vffg1KLPj+_VpPOA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20170420043410.815CC124AEAD@mail.bitblocks.com>
Message-ID: <CANCZdfoZ1t8RrANRRG9RBTW3euBKAM80g0AdROJ_hZRXW=4zvw@mail.gmail.com>

There were a number of 8088/8086 ports as well that didn't have memory
protection....

On Wed, Apr 19, 2017 at 10:34 PM, Bakul Shah <bakul at bitblocks.com> wrote:
> Yes, Cromemco was the company, Cromix their unix like OS.
>
> IIRC, in 1981-83 timeframe someone I worked with had mentioned
> he used to work at Cromemco and that they had a unix like OS
> called Cromix. Cromemco were in Mountain View so likely they
> were at the WCCF.
>
> Even though z80 could only address 64k, their system had a
> bank select under s/w control & upto 512K of RAM could be
> added.  Z80 didn't have a supervisor mode but still, the bank
> select must have  afforded enouh protection from bad pointers
> crashing random processes.
>
> On Wed, 19 Apr 2017 23:40:30 EDT Gregg Levine <gregg.drwho8 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Hello!
>> That was also a board vendor. FYI: The first GASP [GetAway Special
>> Program] a Space Shuttle payload made use of such a board.
>> -----
>> Gregg C Levine gregg.drwho8 at gmail.com
>> "This signature fought the Time Wars, time and again."
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Apr 19, 2017 at 11:09 PM, Bakul Shah <bakul at bitblocks.com> wrote:
>> > On Wed, 19 Apr 2017 18:42:42 PDT "Erik E. Fair" <fair-tuhs at netbsd.org> wrote:
>> >> I have a memory of having seen a Zilog Z-80 (not Z8002 like the Onyx) based
>> >> Unix, possibly v6, at a vendor show or conference - perhaps the West Coast
>> >> Computer Faire (WCCF) in the late 1970s or early 1980s.
>> >>
>> >> I recall asking the people in the booth how they managed without an MMU, and
>> >> don't recall their answer. I do remember thinking that since Unix had "grown
>> >> up" with MMUs to stomp on obvious pointer mistakes, the software ought to be
>> >> relatively well-behaved ... you know: not trying to play "core war" with
>> >> itself?
>> >>
>> >> I searched the TUHS archives cursorily with Google to see if this has been
>> >> previously mentioned, but pretty much all Z80 CPU references have for its use
>> >> in "smart" I/O devices back in the day.
>> >>
>> >> Does anyone else remember this Z80 Unix and who did it? Or maybe that it was
>> >> a clone of some kind ... ?
>> >>
>> >>       looking for a little history,
>> >>
>> >>       Erik Fair
>> >
>> > You may be thinking of Cromemco.


From wes.parish at paradise.net.nz  Thu Apr 20 17:03:48 2017
From: wes.parish at paradise.net.nz (Wesley Parish)
Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2017 19:03:48 +1200 (NZST)
Subject: [TUHS] Zilog Z80 Unix
In-Reply-To: <20170420043410.815CC124AEAD@mail.bitblocks.com>
References: <19663.1492652562@cesium.clock.org>
 <20170420030913.A3CDF124AEAA@mail.bitblocks.com>
 <CAC5iaNFwq+xwBgZuaBPemGs=7MQy=KE0f3Vffg1KLPj+_VpPOA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20170420043410.815CC124AEAD@mail.bitblocks.com>
Message-ID: <1492671828.58f85d549cfc5@www.paradise.net.nz>

FWIW, it appears to be here:
http://www.autometer.de/unix4fun/z80pack/ftp/cromemco/
"cromix1127.tgz	Cromix 11.27
cromix_work.tgz	Cromix 11.27 with C compiler installed, Cromemco ed replaced
		with ANSI version, WordMaster installed. Ready to use work"

Wesley Parish

Quoting Bakul Shah <bakul at bitblocks.com>:

> Yes, Cromemco was the company, Cromix their unix like OS.
> 
> IIRC, in 1981-83 timeframe someone I worked with had mentioned
> he used to work at Cromemco and that they had a unix like OS
> called Cromix. Cromemco were in Mountain View so likely they
> were at the WCCF.
> 
> Even though z80 could only address 64k, their system had a
> bank select under s/w control & upto 512K of RAM could be
> added. Z80 didn't have a supervisor mode but still, the bank
> select must have afforded enouh protection from bad pointers
> crashing random processes.
> 
> On Wed, 19 Apr 2017 23:40:30 EDT Gregg Levine <gregg.drwho8 at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > Hello!
> > That was also a board vendor. FYI: The first GASP [GetAway Special
> > Program] a Space Shuttle payload made use of such a board.
> > -----
> > Gregg C Levine gregg.drwho8 at gmail.com
> > "This signature fought the Time Wars, time and again."
> > 
> > 
> > On Wed, Apr 19, 2017 at 11:09 PM, Bakul Shah <bakul at bitblocks.com>
> wrote:
> > > On Wed, 19 Apr 2017 18:42:42 PDT "Erik E. Fair"
> <fair-tuhs at netbsd.org> wrote:
> > >> I have a memory of having seen a Zilog Z-80 (not Z8002 like the
> Onyx) based 
> > >> Unix, possibly v6, at a vendor show or conference - perhaps the
> West Coast
> > >> Computer Faire (WCCF) in the late 1970s or early 1980s.
> > >>
> > >> I recall asking the people in the booth how they managed without an
> MMU, and
> > >> don't recall their answer. I do remember thinking that since Unix
> had "grown
> > >> up" with MMUs to stomp on obvious pointer mistakes, the software
> ought to be
> > >> relatively well-behaved ... you know: not trying to play "core war"
> with 
> > >> itself?
> > >>
> > >> I searched the TUHS archives cursorily with Google to see if this
> has been
> > >> previously mentioned, but pretty much all Z80 CPU references have
> for its use
> > >> in "smart" I/O devices back in the day.
> > >>
> > >> Does anyone else remember this Z80 Unix and who did it? Or maybe
> that it was
> > >> a clone of some kind ... ?
> > >>
> > >> looking for a little history,
> > >>
> > >> Erik Fair
> > >
> > > You may be thinking of Cromemco.
>  



"I have supposed that he who buys a Method means to learn it." - Ferdinand Sor,
Method for Guitar

"A verbal contract isn't worth the paper it's written on." -- Samuel Goldwyn


From wes.parish at paradise.net.nz  Thu Apr 20 17:32:20 2017
From: wes.parish at paradise.net.nz (Wesley Parish)
Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2017 19:32:20 +1200 (NZST)
Subject: [TUHS] Zilog Z80 Unix
In-Reply-To: <1492671828.58f85d549cfc5@www.paradise.net.nz>
References: <19663.1492652562@cesium.clock.org>
 <20170420030913.A3CDF124AEAA@mail.bitblocks.com>
 <CAC5iaNFwq+xwBgZuaBPemGs=7MQy=KE0f3Vffg1KLPj+_VpPOA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20170420043410.815CC124AEAD@mail.bitblocks.com>
 <1492671828.58f85d549cfc5@www.paradise.net.nz>
Message-ID: <1492673540.58f86404060e8@www.paradise.net.nz>

This is a timeline of microcomputer Unix:

https://www.landley.net/history/mirror/robotwisdom/nonnix.html

Quoting Wesley Parish <wes.parish at paradise.net.nz>:

> FWIW, it appears to be here:
> http://www.autometer.de/unix4fun/z80pack/ftp/cromemco/
> "cromix1127.tgz	Cromix 11.27
> cromix_work.tgz	Cromix 11.27 with C compiler installed, Cromemco ed
> replaced
> 		with ANSI version, WordMaster installed. Ready to use work"
> 
> Wesley Parish
> 
> Quoting Bakul Shah <bakul at bitblocks.com>:
> 
> > Yes, Cromemco was the company, Cromix their unix like OS.
> > 
> > IIRC, in 1981-83 timeframe someone I worked with had mentioned
> > he used to work at Cromemco and that they had a unix like OS
> > called Cromix. Cromemco were in Mountain View so likely they
> > were at the WCCF.
> > 
> > Even though z80 could only address 64k, their system had a
> > bank select under s/w control & upto 512K of RAM could be
> > added. Z80 didn't have a supervisor mode but still, the bank
> > select must have afforded enouh protection from bad pointers
> > crashing random processes.
> > 
> > On Wed, 19 Apr 2017 23:40:30 EDT Gregg Levine
> <gregg.drwho8 at gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> > > Hello!
> > > That was also a board vendor. FYI: The first GASP [GetAway Special
> > > Program] a Space Shuttle payload made use of such a board.
> > > -----
> > > Gregg C Levine gregg.drwho8 at gmail.com
> > > "This signature fought the Time Wars, time and again."
> > > 
> > > 
> > > On Wed, Apr 19, 2017 at 11:09 PM, Bakul Shah <bakul at bitblocks.com>
> > wrote:
> > > > On Wed, 19 Apr 2017 18:42:42 PDT "Erik E. Fair"
> > <fair-tuhs at netbsd.org> wrote:
> > > >> I have a memory of having seen a Zilog Z-80 (not Z8002 like the
> > Onyx) based 
> > > >> Unix, possibly v6, at a vendor show or conference - perhaps the
> > West Coast
> > > >> Computer Faire (WCCF) in the late 1970s or early 1980s.
> > > >>
> > > >> I recall asking the people in the booth how they managed without
> an
> > MMU, and
> > > >> don't recall their answer. I do remember thinking that since
> Unix
> > had "grown
> > > >> up" with MMUs to stomp on obvious pointer mistakes, the software
> > ought to be
> > > >> relatively well-behaved ... you know: not trying to play "core
> war"
> > with 
> > > >> itself?
> > > >>
> > > >> I searched the TUHS archives cursorily with Google to see if
> this
> > has been
> > > >> previously mentioned, but pretty much all Z80 CPU references
> have
> > for its use
> > > >> in "smart" I/O devices back in the day.
> > > >>
> > > >> Does anyone else remember this Z80 Unix and who did it? Or maybe
> > that it was
> > > >> a clone of some kind ... ?
> > > >>
> > > >> looking for a little history,
> > > >>
> > > >> Erik Fair
> > > >
> > > > You may be thinking of Cromemco.
> > 
> 
> 
> 
> "I have supposed that he who buys a Method means to learn it." -
> Ferdinand Sor,
> Method for Guitar
> 
> "A verbal contract isn't worth the paper it's written on." -- Samuel
> Goldwyn
>  



"I have supposed that he who buys a Method means to learn it." - Ferdinand Sor,
Method for Guitar

"A verbal contract isn't worth the paper it's written on." -- Samuel Goldwyn


From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Thu Apr 20 22:34:09 2017
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2017 08:34:09 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [TUHS] Zilog Z80 Unix
Message-ID: <20170420123409.BA37918C0B3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > From: "Erik E. Fair"

    > I have a memory of having seen a Zilog Z-80 .... based Unix, possibly v6
    > ... I recall asking the people in the booth how they managed without an
    > MMU, and don't recall their answer. I do remember thinking that since
    > Unix had "grown up" with MMUs to stomp on obvious pointer mistakes, the
    > software ought to be relatively well-behaved

I don't know about the Z80 part, but for the MMU aspect, recall that the first
couple of versions of PDP-11 Unix ran on a model (the -11/20) which didn't
have an MMU (although, as mentioned before here, it apparently did later use a
thing called a KS11, the specifications for which seem to be mostly lost).
Although recall the mention of calling out "a.out!", as to the hazards of
doing so...

And of course there was the 'Unix for an LSI-11' (LSX), although I gather that
was somewhat lobotomized, as the OS and application has to fit into 56KB
total.

So it was possible to 'sorta kind-of' do Unix without an MMU.

   Noel


From clemc at ccc.com  Thu Apr 20 23:05:44 2017
From: clemc at ccc.com (Clem Cole)
Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2017 09:05:44 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] Zilog Z80 Unix
In-Reply-To: <19663.1492652562@cesium.clock.org>
References: <19663.1492652562@cesium.clock.org>
Message-ID: <CAC20D2NAX1mqb-JQtcGZu-Pk8KUVb9Zb=kxVxe64_fCGtDQg1A@mail.gmail.com>

Leor Zolman had a little firm her in NE called Brain Damaged Software (BDS)
and he wrote and marketed a full C compiler called BDS C -
http://www.bdsoft.com/resources/bdsc.html [ which is now freely available -
including the sources].   For years Leor's compiler was the de facto
standard K&R style C compiler for the 8080/z80 systems for CP/M and such
systems.  [What was important, is that until Leor, the CP/M community was
using something called "Small C" which was a sub-set of the language.  Leor
managed to get V7/K&R into a 8080].

A couple of other folks (which I thought included Leor) had a UNIX-like
system running on/with it that we showed to Dennis at first Boston USENIX
in late the 1970s/early 1980s - that IIRC could take CP/M programs -
[although they may have to been relinked].   My memory is that the system
got sold/licensed to a firm on the west coast and marketed independently of
BDS C, [you might ask Leor or maybe some like Phil Karn - i.e. any one that
was doing both UNIX and CP/M in those days].

If forgotten the details, I do remember Dennis saying that it reminded him
very much of early UNIX and was very impressed with job that had been
done.  The basic tools were there: sh, ed, grep, ls and it was quite usable
modulo floppy disk speeds.

Clem



On Wed, Apr 19, 2017 at 9:42 PM, Erik E. Fair <fair-tuhs at netbsd.org> wrote:

> I have a memory of having seen a Zilog Z-80 (not Z8002 like the Onyx)
> based Unix, possibly v6, at a vendor show or conference - perhaps the West
> Coast Computer Faire (WCCF) in the late 1970s or early 1980s.
>
> I recall asking the people in the booth how they managed without an MMU,
> and don't recall their answer. I do remember thinking that since Unix had
> "grown up" with MMUs to stomp on obvious pointer mistakes, the software
> ought to be relatively well-behaved ... you know: not trying to play "core
> war" with itself?
>
> I searched the TUHS archives cursorily with Google to see if this has been
> previously mentioned, but pretty much all Z80 CPU references have for its
> use in "smart" I/O devices back in the day.
>
> Does anyone else remember this Z80 Unix and who did it? Or maybe that it
> was a clone of some kind ... ?
>
>         looking for a little history,
>
>         Erik Fair
>
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From mutiny.mutiny at rediffmail.com  Thu Apr 20 23:41:38 2017
From: mutiny.mutiny at rediffmail.com (Mutiny )
Date: 20 Apr 2017 13:41:38 -0000
Subject: [TUHS] =?utf-8?q?Zilog_Z80_Unix?=
In-Reply-To: <20170420123409.BA37918C0B3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <1492691693.S.3763.29563.f4-235-222.1492695698.7643@webmail.rediffmail.com>

not to forget Sun&nbsp;UNIX&nbsp;0.7 (Sun-1) From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)Sent: Thu, 20 Apr 2017 18:04:53To: tuhs at tuhs.orgCc: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.eduSubject: Re: [TUHS] Zilog Z80 Unix&nbsp; &nbsp;&gt; From: &quot;Erik E. Fair&quot;&nbsp; &nbsp;&gt; I have a memory of having seen a Zilog Z-80 .... based Unix, possibly v6&nbsp; &nbsp;&gt; ... I recall asking the people in the booth how they managed without an&nbsp; &nbsp;&gt; MMU, and don&#39;t recall their answer. I do remember thinking that since&nbsp; &nbsp;&gt; Unix had &quot;grown up&quot; with MMUs to stomp on obvious pointer mistakes, the&nbsp; &nbsp;&gt; software ought to be relatively well-behavedI don&#39;t know about the Z80 part, but for the MMU aspect, recall that the firstcouple of versions of PDP-11 Unix ran on a model (the -11/20) which didn&#39;thave an MMU (although, as mentioned before here, it apparently did later use athing called a KS11, the specifications for which seem to be mostly lost).A
 lthough recall the mention of calling out &quot;a.out!&quot;, as to the hazards ofdoing so...And of course there was the &#39;Unix for an LSI-11&#39; (LSX), although I gather thatwas somewhat lobotomized, as the OS and application has to fit into 56KBtotal.So it was possible to &#39;sorta kind-of&#39; do Unix without an MMU.&nbsp; Noel
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From mascheck at in-ulm.de  Fri Apr 21 02:39:57 2017
From: mascheck at in-ulm.de (Sven Mascheck)
Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2017 18:39:57 +0200
Subject: [TUHS] Bourne shell and comments
In-Reply-To: <20170419220728.H4VbN%steffen@sdaoden.eu>
References: <20170418204834.GA22198@minnie.tuhs.org>
 <20170419210224.GA701493@lisa.in-ulm.de>
 <20170419220728.H4VbN%steffen@sdaoden.eu>
Message-ID: <20170420163956.GA5144@autechre4>

On Thu, Apr 20, 2017 at 12:07:28AM +0200, Steffen Nurpmeso wrote:
> Hmm.  Kurt Shoens added # as a null() saying "The do nothing
> command for comments." before that (2BSD, file copyright 1979).

Is it possible that you were looking at 2BSD/src/Mail/cmd3.c?
2BSD is an add-on for V6, without any Bourne shell.


From clemc at ccc.com  Fri Apr 21 06:13:18 2017
From: clemc at ccc.com (Clem Cole)
Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2017 16:13:18 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] Bourne shell and comments
In-Reply-To: <020a01d2b885$94bd49c0$be37dd40$@ronnatalie.com>
References: <20170418204834.GA22198@minnie.tuhs.org>
 <020a01d2b885$94bd49c0$be37dd40$@ronnatalie.com>
Message-ID: <CAC20D2Pbv3Hkvmz_=G3Hh9PjoDQQb1GcYf0ZwvTQ7tu6BP447g@mail.gmail.com>

below...

On Tue, Apr 18, 2017 at 4:51 PM, Ron Natalie <ron at ronnatalie.com> wrote:

> I believe the Berkeley #! magic number came first.

​That's right....​ the #!path syntax was BSDism that went main stream
because of its usefulness with "little languages" not just the shell.
 I'd have to check the tapes but it may have gone back as far as the
original BSD ~77/78 - Ken would have brought it back after his sabbatical
(or not - he would have seen it).

The # was nod to the # being the first characters of the C program to say
to use the preprocessor; but I've forgotten why the bang was added before
the path.    It could have been almost anything.

But the #!path syntax really was a great idea and opened up a lot of
different pseudo built-in scripting languages we think go with UNIX today.
But back in the day, their were not that many to start.




> The C Shell already
> ​ ​
> used this as a comment,

​exactly.​


> the Bourne shells grudgingly followed.
>
​Yep - although, like Warren I don't remember how soon.   The thing was you
programmed to V7 [Bourne] syntax and typed to C shell [I still do - the
rom's in the my fingers are not erasable].   I do remember commenting
Bourne scripts, so it must have come early in the Vax line, although its
strange the 2.x did not pick it up, until it seems 2.11 which is pretty
late.



>
> I still remember using : for a comment in the V6 shell.   Was also the
> label
> for goto.
>
​Yep - I remember that also - it worked...
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From chet.ramey at case.edu  Fri Apr 21 06:17:23 2017
From: chet.ramey at case.edu (Chet Ramey)
Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2017 16:17:23 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] Bourne shell and comments
In-Reply-To: <CAC20D2Pbv3Hkvmz_=G3Hh9PjoDQQb1GcYf0ZwvTQ7tu6BP447g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20170418204834.GA22198@minnie.tuhs.org>
 <020a01d2b885$94bd49c0$be37dd40$@ronnatalie.com>
 <CAC20D2Pbv3Hkvmz_=G3Hh9PjoDQQb1GcYf0ZwvTQ7tu6BP447g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <a213f239-d1ad-5c3d-1f6f-cdef793dd6e0@case.edu>

On 4/20/17 4:13 PM, Clem Cole wrote:

>     the Bourne shells grudgingly followed.
> 
> ​Yep - although, like Warren I don't remember how soon.   

System III

-- 
``The lyf so short, the craft so long to lerne.'' - Chaucer
		 ``Ars longa, vita brevis'' - Hippocrates
Chet Ramey, UTech, CWRU    chet at case.edu    http://cnswww.cns.cwru.edu/~chet/


From dave at horsfall.org  Fri Apr 21 07:32:50 2017
From: dave at horsfall.org (Dave Horsfall)
Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2017 07:32:50 +1000 (EST)
Subject: [TUHS] Zilog Z80 Unix
In-Reply-To: <19663.1492652562@cesium.clock.org>
References: <19663.1492652562@cesium.clock.org>
Message-ID: <alpine.BSF.2.20.1704210730080.5445@aneurin.horsfall.org>

On Wed, 19 Apr 2017, Erik E. Fair wrote:

> I have a memory of having seen a Zilog Z-80 (not Z8002 like the Onyx) 
> based Unix, possibly v6, at a vendor show or conference - perhaps the 
> West Coast Computer Faire (WCCF) in the late 1970s or early 1980s.

I'd kill to have Unix running on a Z-80; it combines two of my passions...

-- 
Dave Horsfall DTM (VK2KFU)  "Those who don't understand security will suffer."


From steffen at sdaoden.eu  Fri Apr 21 07:42:20 2017
From: steffen at sdaoden.eu (Steffen Nurpmeso)
Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2017 23:42:20 +0200
Subject: [TUHS] Bourne shell and comments
In-Reply-To: <20170420163956.GA5144@autechre4>
References: <20170418204834.GA22198@minnie.tuhs.org>
 <20170419210224.GA701493@lisa.in-ulm.de>
 <20170419220728.H4VbN%steffen@sdaoden.eu> <20170420163956.GA5144@autechre4>
Message-ID: <20170420214220.aDqQj%steffen@sdaoden.eu>

Sven Mascheck <mascheck at in-ulm.de> wrote:

 |On Thu, Apr 20, 2017 at 12:07:28AM +0200, Steffen Nurpmeso wrote:
 |> Hmm.  Kurt Shoens added # as a null() saying "The do nothing
 |> command for comments." before that (2BSD, file copyright 1979).
 |
 |Is it possible that you were looking at 2BSD/src/Mail/cmd3.c?
 |2BSD is an add-on for V6, without any Bourne shell.

Oh yes, sorry.  Mail that is.  (And lead there from cmdtab.c.)

--steffen


From lm at mcvoy.com  Fri Apr 21 07:59:55 2017
From: lm at mcvoy.com (Larry McVoy)
Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2017 14:59:55 -0700
Subject: [TUHS] Zilog Z80 Unix
In-Reply-To: <alpine.BSF.2.20.1704210730080.5445@aneurin.horsfall.org>
References: <19663.1492652562@cesium.clock.org>
 <alpine.BSF.2.20.1704210730080.5445@aneurin.horsfall.org>
Message-ID: <20170420215955.GJ3285@mcvoy.com>

On Fri, Apr 21, 2017 at 07:32:50AM +1000, Dave Horsfall wrote:
> On Wed, 19 Apr 2017, Erik E. Fair wrote:
> 
> > I have a memory of having seen a Zilog Z-80 (not Z8002 like the Onyx) 
> > based Unix, possibly v6, at a vendor show or conference - perhaps the 
> > West Coast Computer Faire (WCCF) in the late 1970s or early 1980s.
> 
> I'd kill to have Unix running on a Z-80; it combines two of my passions...

I get the sentiment, I too have a fond spot for the Z-80, it's perhaps the
chip where I've done the most assembly (did assembler versions of ls, cp,
rm, etc for CP/M).

That said, would I _want_ a stripped down Unix on a floppy disk based Z-80
machine?  Hmm, well once I thought I wanted that old porsche coupe like
the one Richard Pryor & Gene Wilder drove in one of their movies.  I found
one, $13,000 in the late 1990's and drove it.  Curied me of ever wanting
a car that old.  Uncomfortable seats, everything rattled, the windows didn't
want to roll up, etc, etc.

I suspect that living on a Z-80 with floppies after the stuff we are used
to would not be pleasant.  At least not for me.  Fun but frustrating, where
is the network?  Where's my SSD?  64K?  Really?  Retro is cool but not that
retro :)


From usotsuki at buric.co  Fri Apr 21 08:33:11 2017
From: usotsuki at buric.co (Steve Nickolas)
Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2017 18:33:11 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [TUHS] Zilog Z80 Unix
In-Reply-To: <20170420215955.GJ3285@mcvoy.com>
References: <19663.1492652562@cesium.clock.org>
 <alpine.BSF.2.20.1704210730080.5445@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <20170420215955.GJ3285@mcvoy.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.BSF.2.02.1704201831160.54902@frieza.hoshinet.org>

On Thu, 20 Apr 2017, Larry McVoy wrote:

> On Fri, Apr 21, 2017 at 07:32:50AM +1000, Dave Horsfall wrote:
>> On Wed, 19 Apr 2017, Erik E. Fair wrote:
>>
>>> I have a memory of having seen a Zilog Z-80 (not Z8002 like the Onyx)
>>> based Unix, possibly v6, at a vendor show or conference - perhaps the
>>> West Coast Computer Faire (WCCF) in the late 1970s or early 1980s.
>>
>> I'd kill to have Unix running on a Z-80; it combines two of my passions...
>
> I get the sentiment, I too have a fond spot for the Z-80, it's perhaps the
> chip where I've done the most assembly (did assembler versions of ls, cp,
> rm, etc for CP/M).
>
> That said, would I _want_ a stripped down Unix on a floppy disk based Z-80
> machine?  Hmm, well once I thought I wanted that old porsche coupe like
> the one Richard Pryor & Gene Wilder drove in one of their movies.  I found
> one, $13,000 in the late 1990's and drove it.  Curied me of ever wanting
> a car that old.  Uncomfortable seats, everything rattled, the windows didn't
> want to roll up, etc, etc.
>
> I suspect that living on a Z-80 with floppies after the stuff we are used
> to would not be pleasant.  At least not for me.  Fun but frustrating, where
> is the network?  Where's my SSD?  64K?  Really?  Retro is cool but not that
> retro :)
>

I'm a 6502 person myself.  Though I'm not sure I'd want to run a *x on my 
actual 6502 machine (a "Platinum" Apple //e), I wonder if something a bit 
unixier than GNO (Gno's Not Orca, runs on top of GS/OS) could be pulled 
off on my pet 6502-class machine, the 65816-based Apple IIgs, with 512K 
base in the common version and 1 MB base in the final...

-uso.


From harald at skogtun.org  Fri Apr 21 09:19:52 2017
From: harald at skogtun.org (Harald Arnesen)
Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2017 01:19:52 +0200
Subject: [TUHS] Zilog Z80 Unix
In-Reply-To: <alpine.BSF.2.20.1704210730080.5445@aneurin.horsfall.org>
References: <19663.1492652562@cesium.clock.org>
 <alpine.BSF.2.20.1704210730080.5445@aneurin.horsfall.org>
Message-ID: <58F94218.1000601@skogtun.org>

Dave Horsfall [2017-04-20 23:32]:
> On Wed, 19 Apr 2017, Erik E. Fair wrote:
> 
>> I have a memory of having seen a Zilog Z-80 (not Z8002 like the Onyx) 
>> based Unix, possibly v6, at a vendor show or conference - perhaps the 
>> West Coast Computer Faire (WCCF) in the late 1970s or early 1980s.
> 
> I'd kill to have Unix running on a Z-80; it combines two of my passions...

Check out Fuzix OS:

<https://plus.google.com/+AlanCoxLinux/posts/a2jAP7Pz1gj>
-- 
Hilsen Harald


From pete at dunnington.plus.com  Fri Apr 21 09:28:07 2017
From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull)
Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2017 00:28:07 +0100
Subject: [TUHS] Zilog Z80 Unix
In-Reply-To: <20170420215955.GJ3285@mcvoy.com>
References: <19663.1492652562@cesium.clock.org>
 <alpine.BSF.2.20.1704210730080.5445@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <20170420215955.GJ3285@mcvoy.com>
Message-ID: <1a54d4eb-f202-8543-5971-d5d147801633@dunnington.plus.com>

On 20/04/2017 22:59, Larry McVoy wrote:

> I suspect that living on a Z-80 with floppies after the stuff we are used
> to would not be pleasant.  At least not for me.  Fun but frustrating, where
> is the network?  Where's my SSD?  64K?  Really?  Retro is cool but not that
> retro :)

I've frequently run (and demonstrated at a UK DEC Legacy event) my 
PDP-11/23 running 7th Edition from a pair of RL02 hard drives in 256KB. 
That's slow enough to be painful, and horrifying to bystanders; I 
suspect a Z-80 floppy system would be slightly slower still.

-- 
Pete
Pete Turnbull


From akosela at andykosela.com  Fri Apr 21 10:03:55 2017
From: akosela at andykosela.com (Andy Kosela)
Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2017 19:03:55 -0500
Subject: [TUHS] Zilog Z80 Unix
In-Reply-To: <58F94218.1000601@skogtun.org>
References: <19663.1492652562@cesium.clock.org>
 <alpine.BSF.2.20.1704210730080.5445@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <58F94218.1000601@skogtun.org>
Message-ID: <CALMnNGhtf1TR0vnOrk48rfPOLF5areEgBoqdehVrVV+oZerAvw@mail.gmail.com>

On Thursday, April 20, 2017, Harald Arnesen <harald at skogtun.org> wrote:

> Dave Horsfall [2017-04-20 23:32]:
> > On Wed, 19 Apr 2017, Erik E. Fair wrote:
> >
> >> I have a memory of having seen a Zilog Z-80 (not Z8002 like the Onyx)
> >> based Unix, possibly v6, at a vendor show or conference - perhaps the
> >> West Coast Computer Faire (WCCF) in the late 1970s or early 1980s.
> >
> > I'd kill to have Unix running on a Z-80; it combines two of my
> passions...
>
> Check out Fuzix OS:
>
> <https://plus.google.com/+AlanCoxLinux/posts/a2jAP7Pz1gj>
>
>
Simply beautiful!  And here is some documentation on getting it running on
a Z-80 emulator:

   https://sinrega.org/?p=218

--Andy
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From cym224 at gmail.com  Fri Apr 21 11:42:19 2017
From: cym224 at gmail.com (Nemo)
Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2017 21:42:19 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] Bourne shell and comments
In-Reply-To: <CANCZdfptwXYU0KL72tGwKyv+c=zLZBQy8BBgCCwPdtpMhFOz_Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20170418204834.GA22198@minnie.tuhs.org>
 <20170419210224.GA701493@lisa.in-ulm.de>
 <20170419220728.H4VbN%steffen@sdaoden.eu>
 <CAH_OBid2VhKdO-idijLH2fWiJPerSSxx5Y9StGCkYduhmB62xw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH_OBieK7g9enBpEL_8QTYZ8bJpLiQNrZb33=M8U=qa2jRC78Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALMnNGg-ynB-EV=8DzioY1ws2nJuN+DQRNaBbNp6+XyQ2=WR5A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANCZdfptwXYU0KL72tGwKyv+c=zLZBQy8BBgCCwPdtpMhFOz_Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJfiPzx-fkXEjTHk6Hv7iSDi+D=R3zStyzx-L5gJV=wQAQuS7w@mail.gmail.com>

On 20 April 2017 at 00:47, Warner Losh <imp at bsdimp.com> wrote:
> On Wed, Apr 19, 2017 at 9:50 PM, Andy Kosela <akosela at andykosela.com> wrote:
[...]
>> Yes indeed.  So while we are at it can we settle down once and for all why
>> and when the term "shebang" originated?  Is it derived from "shell bang", or
>> "sharp bang"?
>
> That would be too neat... And these things get harder with time...

Yes, it would be nice to know the origin of the whole shebang.

N.


From arnold at skeeve.com  Fri Apr 21 13:28:06 2017
From: arnold at skeeve.com (arnold at skeeve.com)
Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2017 21:28:06 -0600
Subject: [TUHS] Bourne shell and comments
In-Reply-To: <CAC20D2Pbv3Hkvmz_=G3Hh9PjoDQQb1GcYf0ZwvTQ7tu6BP447g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20170418204834.GA22198@minnie.tuhs.org>
 <020a01d2b885$94bd49c0$be37dd40$@ronnatalie.com>
 <CAC20D2Pbv3Hkvmz_=G3Hh9PjoDQQb1GcYf0ZwvTQ7tu6BP447g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <201704210328.v3L3S6MI010851@freefriends.org>

Clem Cole <clemc at ccc.com> wrote:

> below...
>
> On Tue, Apr 18, 2017 at 4:51 PM, Ron Natalie <ron at ronnatalie.com> wrote:
>
> > I believe the Berkeley #! magic number came first.
>
> That's right.... the #!path syntax was BSDism that went main stream
> because of its usefulness with "little languages" not just the shell.
>  I'd have to check the tapes but it may have gone back as far as the
> original BSD ~77/78 - Ken would have brought it back after his sabbatical
> (or not - he would have seen it).

I thought it was pretty well established that DMR invented it and
told the UCB guys about it? There's an email in the archives from
him, too.

Dr. McIlroy? Can you clarify?

> The # was nod to the # being the first characters of the C program to say
> to use the preprocessor; but I've forgotten why the bang was added before
> the path.    It could have been almost anything.

Perhaps reminiscent of the '!' escape to shell in ed and maybe
some other interactive programs of the time?  That's purely a guess
on my part.

My two cents,

Arnold


From bakul at bitblocks.com  Fri Apr 21 13:43:31 2017
From: bakul at bitblocks.com (Bakul Shah)
Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2017 20:43:31 -0700
Subject: [TUHS] Bourne shell and comments
In-Reply-To: <201704210328.v3L3S6MI010851@freefriends.org>
References: <20170418204834.GA22198@minnie.tuhs.org>
 <020a01d2b885$94bd49c0$be37dd40$@ronnatalie.com>
 <CAC20D2Pbv3Hkvmz_=G3Hh9PjoDQQb1GcYf0ZwvTQ7tu6BP447g@mail.gmail.com>
 <201704210328.v3L3S6MI010851@freefriends.org>
Message-ID: <272995B6-6842-4E4F-8A69-8B5C57EE4E35@bitblocks.com>

From the horse’s mouth (as per https://www.talisman.org/~erlkonig/documents/dennis-ritchie-and-hash-bang.shtml ):


From: "Ritchie, Dennis M (Dennis)** CTR **" <dmr at research.bell-labs.com>
To: <erlĸonigⓐtαlismαn.org>

Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 18:37:37 -0600
Subject: RE: What do -you- call your #!<something> line?

 I can't recall that we ever gave it a proper name.
It was pretty late that it went in--I think that I
got the idea from someone at one of the UCB conferences
on Berkeley Unix; I may have been one of the first to
actually install it, but it was an idea that I got
from elsewhere.

As for the name: probably something descriptive like
"hash-bang" though this has a specifically British flavor, but
in any event I don't recall particularly using a pet name
for the construction.

   Regards,
   Dennis
 

[Sorry about the html]

> On Apr 20, 2017, at 8:28 PM, arnold at skeeve.com wrote:
> 
> Clem Cole <clemc at ccc.com> wrote:
> 
>> below...
>> 
>> On Tue, Apr 18, 2017 at 4:51 PM, Ron Natalie <ron at ronnatalie.com> wrote:
>> 
>>> I believe the Berkeley #! magic number came first.
>> 
>> That's right.... the #!path syntax was BSDism that went main stream
>> because of its usefulness with "little languages" not just the shell.
>> I'd have to check the tapes but it may have gone back as far as the
>> original BSD ~77/78 - Ken would have brought it back after his sabbatical
>> (or not - he would have seen it).
> 
> I thought it was pretty well established that DMR invented it and
> told the UCB guys about it? There's an email in the archives from
> him, too.
> 
> Dr. McIlroy? Can you clarify?
> 
>> The # was nod to the # being the first characters of the C program to say
>> to use the preprocessor; but I've forgotten why the bang was added before
>> the path.    It could have been almost anything.
> 
> Perhaps reminiscent of the '!' escape to shell in ed and maybe
> some other interactive programs of the time?  That's purely a guess
> on my part.
> 
> My two cents,
> 
> Arnold

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From usotsuki at buric.co  Fri Apr 21 16:07:00 2017
From: usotsuki at buric.co (Steve Nickolas)
Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2017 02:07:00 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [TUHS] Bourne shell and comments
In-Reply-To: <272995B6-6842-4E4F-8A69-8B5C57EE4E35@bitblocks.com>
References: <20170418204834.GA22198@minnie.tuhs.org>
 <020a01d2b885$94bd49c0$be37dd40$@ronnatalie.com>
 <CAC20D2Pbv3Hkvmz_=G3Hh9PjoDQQb1GcYf0ZwvTQ7tu6BP447g@mail.gmail.com>
 <201704210328.v3L3S6MI010851@freefriends.org>
 <272995B6-6842-4E4F-8A69-8B5C57EE4E35@bitblocks.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.BSF.2.02.1704210205530.81367@frieza.hoshinet.org>

On Thu, 20 Apr 2017, Bakul Shah wrote:

> From the horse’s mouth (as per https://www.talisman.org/~erlkonig/documents/dennis-ritchie-and-hash-bang.shtml ):
>
>
> From: "Ritchie, Dennis M (Dennis)** CTR **" <dmr at research.bell-labs.com>
> To: <erlĸonigⓐtαlismαn.org>
>
> Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 18:37:37 -0600
> Subject: RE: What do -you- call your #!<something> line?
>
> I can't recall that we ever gave it a proper name.
> It was pretty late that it went in--I think that I
> got the idea from someone at one of the UCB conferences
> on Berkeley Unix; I may have been one of the first to
> actually install it, but it was an idea that I got
> from elsewhere.
>
> As for the name: probably something descriptive like
> "hash-bang" though this has a specifically British flavor, but
> in any event I don't recall particularly using a pet name
> for the construction.
>
>   Regards,
>   Dennis
>
>
> [Sorry about the html]

In the process of replying, I've de-htmlized it. ;)

Anyway, I use "pound-bang" which is basically the same thing, although I 
must say it has a particular violent quality about it...

-uso.

From ron at ronnatalie.com  Fri Apr 21 20:54:30 2017
From: ron at ronnatalie.com (Ron Natalie)
Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2017 06:54:30 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] Bourne shell and comments
In-Reply-To: <CAJfiPzx-fkXEjTHk6Hv7iSDi+D=R3zStyzx-L5gJV=wQAQuS7w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20170418204834.GA22198@minnie.tuhs.org>
 <20170419210224.GA701493@lisa.in-ulm.de>
 <20170419220728.H4VbN%steffen@sdaoden.eu>
 <CAH_OBid2VhKdO-idijLH2fWiJPerSSxx5Y9StGCkYduhmB62xw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH_OBieK7g9enBpEL_8QTYZ8bJpLiQNrZb33=M8U=qa2jRC78Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALMnNGg-ynB-EV=8DzioY1ws2nJuN+DQRNaBbNp6+XyQ2=WR5A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANCZdfptwXYU0KL72tGwKyv+c=zLZBQy8BBgCCwPdtpMhFOz_Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJfiPzx-fkXEjTHk6Hv7iSDi+D=R3zStyzx-L5gJV=wQAQuS7w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <03cc01d2ba8d$a798f4e0$f6cadea0$@ronnatalie.com>

Shebang is very old.   Earliest uses are around 1862 according to the OED.    It's listed as American Slang of obscure origin.




From clemc at ccc.com  Fri Apr 21 21:18:31 2017
From: clemc at ccc.com (Clem cole)
Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2017 07:18:31 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] Bourne shell and comments
In-Reply-To: <201704210328.v3L3S6MI010851@freefriends.org>
References: <20170418204834.GA22198@minnie.tuhs.org>
 <020a01d2b885$94bd49c0$be37dd40$@ronnatalie.com>
 <CAC20D2Pbv3Hkvmz_=G3Hh9PjoDQQb1GcYf0ZwvTQ7tu6BP447g@mail.gmail.com>
 <201704210328.v3L3S6MI010851@freefriends.org>
Message-ID: <E120C2AA-E9C1-48CE-B97F-60BD2518BEE2@ccc.com>

It is quite possible.  But I think it might have been the other way around that Dennis got the idea from elsewhere. 

Sent from my PDP-7 Running UNIX V0 expect things to be almost but not quite. 

> On Apr 20, 2017, at 11:28 PM, arnold at skeeve.com wrote:
> 
> I thought it was pretty well established that DMR invented it and
> told the UCB guys about it? There's an email in the archives from
> him, too.


From michael at kjorling.se  Fri Apr 21 23:20:22 2017
From: michael at kjorling.se (Michael =?utf-8?B?S2rDtnJsaW5n?=)
Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2017 13:20:22 +0000
Subject: [TUHS] Bourne shell and comments
In-Reply-To: <201704210328.v3L3S6MI010851@freefriends.org>
References: <20170418204834.GA22198@minnie.tuhs.org>
 <020a01d2b885$94bd49c0$be37dd40$@ronnatalie.com>
 <CAC20D2Pbv3Hkvmz_=G3Hh9PjoDQQb1GcYf0ZwvTQ7tu6BP447g@mail.gmail.com>
 <201704210328.v3L3S6MI010851@freefriends.org>
Message-ID: <20170421132022.GA16779@yeono.kjorling.se>

On 20 Apr 2017 21:28 -0600, from arnold at skeeve.com:
>> The # was nod to the # being the first characters of the C program to say
>> to use the preprocessor; but I've forgotten why the bang was added before
>> the path.    It could have been almost anything.
> 
> Perhaps reminiscent of the '!' escape to shell in ed and maybe
> some other interactive programs of the time?  That's purely a guess
> on my part.

How about that # could start a C preprocessor directive, but no C
preprocessor directives begins with `!'? Makes it easy for the C
compiler or preprocessor to check that it isn't being fed a random
script.

-- 
Michael Kjörling • https://michael.kjorling.se • michael at kjorling.se
                 “People who think they know everything really annoy
                 those of us who know we don’t.” (Bjarne Stroustrup)


From akosela at andykosela.com  Sat Apr 22 00:22:08 2017
From: akosela at andykosela.com (Andy Kosela)
Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2017 09:22:08 -0500
Subject: [TUHS]  Bourne shell and comments
In-Reply-To: <03cc01d2ba8d$a798f4e0$f6cadea0$@ronnatalie.com>
References: <20170418204834.GA22198@minnie.tuhs.org>
 <20170419210224.GA701493@lisa.in-ulm.de>
 <20170419220728.H4VbN%steffen@sdaoden.eu>
 <CAH_OBid2VhKdO-idijLH2fWiJPerSSxx5Y9StGCkYduhmB62xw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH_OBieK7g9enBpEL_8QTYZ8bJpLiQNrZb33=M8U=qa2jRC78Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALMnNGg-ynB-EV=8DzioY1ws2nJuN+DQRNaBbNp6+XyQ2=WR5A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANCZdfptwXYU0KL72tGwKyv+c=zLZBQy8BBgCCwPdtpMhFOz_Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJfiPzx-fkXEjTHk6Hv7iSDi+D=R3zStyzx-L5gJV=wQAQuS7w@mail.gmail.com>
 <03cc01d2ba8d$a798f4e0$f6cadea0$@ronnatalie.com>
Message-ID: <CALMnNGjEWe8WHsMZ8dw2+RK7SFAoerA04sy47RGzDrx2vEt-Uw@mail.gmail.com>

On Friday, April 21, 2017, Ron Natalie <ron at ronnatalie.com
<javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','ron at ronnatalie.com');>> wrote:

> Shebang is very old.   Earliest uses are around 1862 according to the
> OED.    It's listed as American Slang of obscure origin.
>

Most of us are probably familiar with the word, but it is more interesting
when and why it was first used in the context of '#!'.  It seems Dennis did
not use that term in the beginning.

--Andy
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From ron at ronnatalie.com  Sat Apr 22 00:45:12 2017
From: ron at ronnatalie.com (Ron Natalie)
Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2017 10:45:12 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] Bourne shell and comments
In-Reply-To: <CALMnNGjEWe8WHsMZ8dw2+RK7SFAoerA04sy47RGzDrx2vEt-Uw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20170418204834.GA22198@minnie.tuhs.org>
 <20170419210224.GA701493@lisa.in-ulm.de>
 <20170419220728.H4VbN%steffen@sdaoden.eu>
 <CAH_OBid2VhKdO-idijLH2fWiJPerSSxx5Y9StGCkYduhmB62xw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH_OBieK7g9enBpEL_8QTYZ8bJpLiQNrZb33=M8U=qa2jRC78Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALMnNGg-ynB-EV=8DzioY1ws2nJuN+DQRNaBbNp6+XyQ2=WR5A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANCZdfptwXYU0KL72tGwKyv+c=zLZBQy8BBgCCwPdtpMhFOz_Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJfiPzx-fkXEjTHk6Hv7iSDi+D=R3zStyzx-L5gJV=wQAQuS7w@mail.gmail.com>
 <03cc01d2ba8d$a798f4e0$f6cadea0$@ronnatalie.com>
 <CALMnNGjEWe8WHsMZ8dw2+RK7SFAoerA04sy47RGzDrx2vEt-Uw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <03f501d2baad$e398b4b0$aaca1e10$@ronnatalie.com>

Amusingly, people were asking this question in 2000.   I found this in comp.unix.shell:

 

in news: at.linux, there's a discussion about why the
interpretersymbol #! is called shebang (you can imagine, which
theories already occurred). but does anybody know, WHY this is really
called shebang?

sorry for being a bit offtopic, but it's essential :)

thanks before.

Stefan

No origins were found in the messages other than a guess that it was a cute shortening of “SHARP BANG.”



Wasn’t it Ken Thompson who said if he had it to do over again he’d have put an “e” on the end of create.    Five decades of calling it “CREE – AT”

 

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From ron at ronnatalie.com  Sat Apr 22 00:48:02 2017
From: ron at ronnatalie.com (Ron Natalie)
Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2017 10:48:02 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] Etymology of shebang
Message-ID: <040501d2baae$47bc8a20$d7359e60$@ronnatalie.com>

Oldest actual use in a post I can find is 1997 

 

I did find something I had completely forgot about.   The csh used to (probably still does?) differentiate between Bourne shell scripts and csh scripts by looking for #.

 

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From clemc at ccc.com  Sat Apr 22 01:07:48 2017
From: clemc at ccc.com (Clem Cole)
Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2017 11:07:48 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] Etymology of shebang
In-Reply-To: <040501d2baae$47bc8a20$d7359e60$@ronnatalie.com>
References: <040501d2baae$47bc8a20$d7359e60$@ronnatalie.com>
Message-ID: <CAC20D2MT0UsODkGzcHONwOFA7BpKn4bPXMHCwsVRXbkrX=68uQ@mail.gmail.com>

Sorry, yes -- which is why I think the exec hack first show up in the BSD
kernel.  It was an efficiency trick on the PDP-11's.  The idea was to catch
the change of shell as soon as possible.

On Fri, Apr 21, 2017 at 10:48 AM, Ron Natalie <ron at ronnatalie.com> wrote:

> Oldest actual use in a post I can find is 1997
>
>
>
> *I did find something I had completely forgot about.   The csh used to
> (probably still does?) differentiate between Bourne shell scripts and csh
> scripts by looking for #.*
>
>
>
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From chris at groessler.org  Sat Apr 22 01:22:13 2017
From: chris at groessler.org (Christian Groessler)
Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2017 17:22:13 +0200
Subject: [TUHS] Tektronix 8560 floppies
Message-ID: <475e0b13-c4a8-8dd1-89c3-864537b3c64e@groessler.org>

Hi,

I've imaged (with ImageDisk) some floppies I've got with my "new" 8560 
system.

You can find them at 
ftp://ftp.groessler.org/pub/chris/tektronix/8560/diskimages .

Among other things there are cross-assemblers for 68000, 6809, and 6800.
 From the TNIX installation disk set one is missing (disk 5 of 5).

I'm looking for the Z8000 cross-assembler for TNIX. Does anyone have it?

regards,
chris



From doug at cs.dartmouth.edu  Sat Apr 22 03:03:24 2017
From: doug at cs.dartmouth.edu (Doug McIlroy)
Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2017 13:03:24 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] Bourne shell and comments
Message-ID: <201704211703.v3LH3OmI019751@coolidge.cs.Dartmouth.EDU>

"Shebang". Nice coinage (which I somehow hadn't heard before).
Very much  in tune with Bell Labs, where Vic Vyssotsky had instilled
"sharp" as the name of # -- not "number", not "pound", and definitely
not "hash" -- so shell scripts began with sharp-bang.

Doug


From clemc at ccc.com  Sat Apr 22 04:15:08 2017
From: clemc at ccc.com (Clem Cole)
Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2017 14:15:08 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] Bourne shell and comments
In-Reply-To: <201704211703.v3LH3OmI019751@coolidge.cs.Dartmouth.EDU>
References: <201704211703.v3LH3OmI019751@coolidge.cs.Dartmouth.EDU>
Message-ID: <CAC20D2O=XQNnHQcB5117HxEpMA0hYvnuM4YOwqMmCMds9Tp1sQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Apr 21, 2017 at 1:03 PM, Doug McIlroy <doug at cs.dartmouth.edu> wrote:

> "sharp" as the name of # -- not "number", not "pound", and definitely
> not "hash" -- so shell scripts began with sharp-bang.
>

​Amen....​
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From scj at yaccman.com  Sat Apr 22 05:13:30 2017
From: scj at yaccman.com (Steve Johnson)
Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2017 12:13:30 -0700
Subject: [TUHS] Bourne shell and comments
In-Reply-To: <CAC20D2O=XQNnHQcB5117HxEpMA0hYvnuM4YOwqMmCMds9Tp1sQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <c9c7488a00943a7a8e77f5f4f9c71dd69c3458b4@webmail.yaccman.com>

I always kind of liked octothorpe,  the "official" AT&T name for the
# key on your phone...   Why use one syllable when three will do?

Steve

----- Original Message -----
From:
 "Clem Cole" <clemc at ccc.com>

To:
"Doug McIlroy" <doug at cs.dartmouth.edu>
Cc:
"TUHS main list" <tuhs at minnie.tuhs.org>
Sent:
Fri, 21 Apr 2017 14:15:08 -0400
Subject:
Re: [TUHS] Bourne shell and comments

On Fri, Apr 21, 2017 at 1:03 PM, Doug McIlroy <doug at cs.dartmouth.edu
[1]>
 wrote:

"sharp" as the name of # -- not "number", not "pound", and definitely
 not "hash" -- so shell scripts began with sharp-bang.

​Amen....​

 

Links:
------
[1] mailto:doug at cs.dartmouth.edu

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From dave at horsfall.org  Sat Apr 22 12:46:42 2017
From: dave at horsfall.org (Dave Horsfall)
Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2017 12:46:42 +1000 (EST)
Subject: [TUHS] Bourne shell and comments
In-Reply-To: <CALMnNGg-ynB-EV=8DzioY1ws2nJuN+DQRNaBbNp6+XyQ2=WR5A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20170418204834.GA22198@minnie.tuhs.org>
 <20170419210224.GA701493@lisa.in-ulm.de>
 <20170419220728.H4VbN%steffen@sdaoden.eu>
 <CAH_OBid2VhKdO-idijLH2fWiJPerSSxx5Y9StGCkYduhmB62xw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH_OBieK7g9enBpEL_8QTYZ8bJpLiQNrZb33=M8U=qa2jRC78Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALMnNGg-ynB-EV=8DzioY1ws2nJuN+DQRNaBbNp6+XyQ2=WR5A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.BSF.2.20.1704221242120.5445@aneurin.horsfall.org>

On Wed, 19 Apr 2017, Andy Kosela wrote:

>       Heh apparently I missed Sven's links below his name... Well, nice 
>       writeup :) 
> 
> Yes indeed.  So while we are at it can we settle down once and for all 
> why and when the term "shebang" originated?  Is it derived from "shell 
> bang", or "sharp bang"?

Well, just to stir the possum a little, I've always called it "hash bang".

-- 
Dave Horsfall DTM (VK2KFU)  "Those who don't understand security will suffer."

From dave at horsfall.org  Sun Apr 23 07:07:13 2017
From: dave at horsfall.org (Dave Horsfall)
Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2017 07:07:13 +1000 (EST)
Subject: [TUHS] Zilog Z80 Unix
In-Reply-To: <CAC20D2NAX1mqb-JQtcGZu-Pk8KUVb9Zb=kxVxe64_fCGtDQg1A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <19663.1492652562@cesium.clock.org>
 <CAC20D2NAX1mqb-JQtcGZu-Pk8KUVb9Zb=kxVxe64_fCGtDQg1A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.BSF.2.20.1704230653200.5445@aneurin.horsfall.org>

On Thu, 20 Apr 2017, Clem Cole wrote:

> Leor Zolman had a little firm her in NE called Brain Damaged Software 
> (BDS) and he wrote and marketed a full C compiler called BDS C - 
> http://www.bdsoft.com/resources/bdsc.html [ which is now freely 
> available - including the sources].   For years Leor's compiler was the 
> de facto standard K&R style C compiler for the 8080/z80 systems for CP/M 
> and such systems.  [What was important, is that until Leor, the CP/M 
> community was using something called "Small C" which was a sub-set of 
> the language.  Leor managed to get V7/K&R into a 8080].

We must be talking about a different BDS C.

I remember BDS C for all the wrong reasons; I can only repeat a remark 
from Henry Spencer about another alleged C compiler: "To be called a C 
compiler, it ought to at least be able to compile C."  My Z-80 C compiler 
was Hi-Tech C, which was full ANSI.

My favourite test of any language is "can it process itself?".

-- 
Dave Horsfall DTM (VK2KFU)  "Those who don't understand security will suffer."

From clemc at ccc.com  Sun Apr 23 09:59:28 2017
From: clemc at ccc.com (Clem cole)
Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2017 19:59:28 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] Zilog Z80 Unix
In-Reply-To: <alpine.BSF.2.20.1704230653200.5445@aneurin.horsfall.org>
References: <19663.1492652562@cesium.clock.org>
 <CAC20D2NAX1mqb-JQtcGZu-Pk8KUVb9Zb=kxVxe64_fCGtDQg1A@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.BSF.2.20.1704230653200.5445@aneurin.horsfall.org>
Message-ID: <3E8A1915-84F0-4BC1-B825-29CD2C10B0E8@ccc.com>

That interesting Dave.  I had not heard of people that did not like it. I did not think Henry's comment was about Leor's  work. 

FWIW:  I can not say I personally pushed it as hard as i did other compilers later in my career but it always worked fine for me on the z80 and worked better than the Teletype corp z80 compiler which was the first one I saw 

Sent from my PDP-7 Running UNIX V0 expect things to be almost but not quite. 

> On Apr 22, 2017, at 5:07 PM, Dave Horsfall <dave at horsfall.org> wrote:
> 
>> On Thu, 20 Apr 2017, Clem Cole wrote:
>> 
>> Leor Zolman had a little firm her in NE called Brain Damaged Software 
>> (BDS) and he wrote and marketed a full C compiler called BDS C - 
>> http://www.bdsoft.com/resources/bdsc.html [ which is now freely 
>> available - including the sources].   For years Leor's compiler was the 
>> de facto standard K&R style C compiler for the 8080/z80 systems for CP/M 
>> and such systems.  [What was important, is that until Leor, the CP/M 
>> community was using something called "Small C" which was a sub-set of 
>> the language.  Leor managed to get V7/K&R into a 8080].
> 
> We must be talking about a different BDS C.
> 
> I remember BDS C for all the wrong reasons; I can only repeat a remark 
> from Henry Spencer about another alleged C compiler: "To be called a C 
> compiler, it ought to at least be able to compile C."  My Z-80 C compiler 
> was Hi-Tech C, which was full ANSI.
> 
> My favourite test of any language is "can it process itself?".
> 
> -- 
> Dave Horsfall DTM (VK2KFU)  "Those who don't understand security will suffer."


From clemc at ccc.com  Sun Apr 23 10:01:19 2017
From: clemc at ccc.com (Clem cole)
Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2017 20:01:19 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] Zilog Z80 Unix
In-Reply-To: <alpine.BSF.2.20.1704230653200.5445@aneurin.horsfall.org>
References: <19663.1492652562@cesium.clock.org>
 <CAC20D2NAX1mqb-JQtcGZu-Pk8KUVb9Zb=kxVxe64_fCGtDQg1A@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.BSF.2.20.1704230653200.5445@aneurin.horsfall.org>
Message-ID: <0C1941E4-6303-493A-A5EC-2FA039A2BFD7@ccc.com>

Well you can try it if you like. The sources and binaries are freely available.  

Sent from my PDP-7 Running UNIX V0 expect things to be almost but not quite. 

> On Apr 22, 2017, at 5:07 PM, Dave Horsfall <dave at horsfall.org> wrote:
> 
> My favourite test of any language is "can it process itself?".


From lm at mcvoy.com  Sun Apr 23 10:13:00 2017
From: lm at mcvoy.com (Larry McVoy)
Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2017 17:13:00 -0700
Subject: [TUHS] Zilog Z80 Unix
In-Reply-To: <alpine.BSF.2.20.1704230653200.5445@aneurin.horsfall.org>
References: <19663.1492652562@cesium.clock.org>
 <CAC20D2NAX1mqb-JQtcGZu-Pk8KUVb9Zb=kxVxe64_fCGtDQg1A@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.BSF.2.20.1704230653200.5445@aneurin.horsfall.org>
Message-ID: <20170423001300.GK15459@mcvoy.com>

On Sun, Apr 23, 2017 at 07:07:13AM +1000, Dave Horsfall wrote:
> On Thu, 20 Apr 2017, Clem Cole wrote:
> 
> > Leor Zolman had a little firm her in NE called Brain Damaged Software 
> > (BDS) and he wrote and marketed a full C compiler called BDS C - 
> > http://www.bdsoft.com/resources/bdsc.html [ which is now freely 
> > available - including the sources]. ?? For years Leor's compiler was the 
> > de facto standard K&R style C compiler for the 8080/z80 systems for CP/M 
> > and such systems. ??[What was important, is that until Leor, the CP/M 
> > community was using something called "Small C" which was a sub-set of 
> > the language.?? Leor managed to get V7/K&R into a 8080].
> 
> We must be talking about a different BDS C.
> 
> I remember BDS C for all the wrong reasons; I can only repeat a remark 
> from Henry Spencer about another alleged C compiler: "To be called a C 
> compiler, it ought to at least be able to compile C."  My Z-80 C compiler 
> was Hi-Tech C, which was full ANSI.

I've never heard of Hi-Tech C but I am apparently more forgiving.  I spent
many happy hours using BDS C.  It wasn't exactly standard, the standard
I/O library was far from compat, but whatever, it was a C compiler on 
a CP/M system.  Pretty pleasant.


From wes.parish at paradise.net.nz  Sun Apr 23 15:14:55 2017
From: wes.parish at paradise.net.nz (Wesley Parish)
Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2017 17:14:55 +1200 (NZST)
Subject: [TUHS] Zilog Z80 Unix
In-Reply-To: <CAC20D2NAX1mqb-JQtcGZu-Pk8KUVb9Zb=kxVxe64_fCGtDQg1A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <19663.1492652562@cesium.clock.org>
 <CAC20D2NAX1mqb-JQtcGZu-Pk8KUVb9Zb=kxVxe64_fCGtDQg1A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1492924495.58fc384fad4f9@www.paradise.net.nz>

FWIW, I've got a copy of "A Book on C" by RE Berry, BAE Meekings and MD Soren, which presents an 
extension of Small C called RatC, and with example translations from RatC to 8080 and VAX.

Did anyone use RatC for any major project?

Wesley Parish

Quoting Clem Cole <clemc at ccc.com>:

> Leor Zolman had a little firm her in NE called Brain Damaged Software
> (BDS)
> and he wrote and marketed a full C compiler called BDS C -
> http://www.bdsoft.com/resources/bdsc.html [ which is now freely
> available -
> including the sources]. For years Leor's compiler was the de facto
> standard K&R style C compiler for the 8080/z80 systems for CP/M and
> such
> systems. [What was important, is that until Leor, the CP/M community
> was
> using something called "Small C" which was a sub-set of the language.
> Leor
> managed to get V7/K&R into a 8080].
> 
> A couple of other folks (which I thought included Leor) had a UNIX-like
> system running on/with it that we showed to Dennis at first Boston
> USENIX
> in late the 1970s/early 1980s - that IIRC could take CP/M programs -
> [although they may have to been relinked]. My memory is that the system
> got sold/licensed to a firm on the west coast and marketed independently
> of
> BDS C, [you might ask Leor or maybe some like Phil Karn - i.e. any one
> that
> was doing both UNIX and CP/M in those days].
> 
> If forgotten the details, I do remember Dennis saying that it reminded
> him
> very much of early UNIX and was very impressed with job that had been
> done. The basic tools were there: sh, ed, grep, ls and it was quite
> usable
> modulo floppy disk speeds.
> 
> Clem
> 
> 
> 
> On Wed, Apr 19, 2017 at 9:42 PM, Erik E. Fair <fair-tuhs at netbsd.org>
> wrote:
> 
> > I have a memory of having seen a Zilog Z-80 (not Z8002 like the Onyx)
> > based Unix, possibly v6, at a vendor show or conference - perhaps the
> West
> > Coast Computer Faire (WCCF) in the late 1970s or early 1980s.
> >
> > I recall asking the people in the booth how they managed without an
> MMU,
> > and don't recall their answer. I do remember thinking that since Unix
> had
> > "grown up" with MMUs to stomp on obvious pointer mistakes, the
> software
> > ought to be relatively well-behaved ... you know: not trying to play
> "core
> > war" with itself?
> >
> > I searched the TUHS archives cursorily with Google to see if this has
> been
> > previously mentioned, but pretty much all Z80 CPU references have for
> its
> > use in "smart" I/O devices back in the day.
> >
> > Does anyone else remember this Z80 Unix and who did it? Or maybe that
> it
> > was a clone of some kind ... ?
> >
> > looking for a little history,
> >
> > Erik Fair
> >
>  



"I have supposed that he who buys a Method means to learn it." - Ferdinand Sor,
Method for Guitar

"A verbal contract isn't worth the paper it's written on." -- Samuel Goldwyn


From wes.parish at paradise.net.nz  Sun Apr 23 15:14:55 2017
From: wes.parish at paradise.net.nz (Wesley Parish)
Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2017 17:14:55 +1200 (NZST)
Subject: [TUHS] Zilog Z80 Unix
In-Reply-To: <CAC20D2NAX1mqb-JQtcGZu-Pk8KUVb9Zb=kxVxe64_fCGtDQg1A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <19663.1492652562@cesium.clock.org>
 <CAC20D2NAX1mqb-JQtcGZu-Pk8KUVb9Zb=kxVxe64_fCGtDQg1A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1492924495.58fc384f33c25@www.paradise.net.nz>

FWIW, I've got a copy of "A Book on C" by RE Berry, BAE Meekings and MD Soren, which presents an 
extension of Small C called RatC, and with example translations from RatC to 8080 and VAX.

Did anyone use RatC for any major project?

Wesley Parish

Quoting Clem Cole <clemc at ccc.com>:

> Leor Zolman had a little firm her in NE called Brain Damaged Software
> (BDS)
> and he wrote and marketed a full C compiler called BDS C -
> http://www.bdsoft.com/resources/bdsc.html [ which is now freely
> available -
> including the sources]. For years Leor's compiler was the de facto
> standard K&R style C compiler for the 8080/z80 systems for CP/M and
> such
> systems. [What was important, is that until Leor, the CP/M community
> was
> using something called "Small C" which was a sub-set of the language.
> Leor
> managed to get V7/K&R into a 8080].
> 
> A couple of other folks (which I thought included Leor) had a UNIX-like
> system running on/with it that we showed to Dennis at first Boston
> USENIX
> in late the 1970s/early 1980s - that IIRC could take CP/M programs -
> [although they may have to been relinked]. My memory is that the system
> got sold/licensed to a firm on the west coast and marketed independently
> of
> BDS C, [you might ask Leor or maybe some like Phil Karn - i.e. any one
> that
> was doing both UNIX and CP/M in those days].
> 
> If forgotten the details, I do remember Dennis saying that it reminded
> him
> very much of early UNIX and was very impressed with job that had been
> done. The basic tools were there: sh, ed, grep, ls and it was quite
> usable
> modulo floppy disk speeds.
> 
> Clem
> 
> 
> 
> On Wed, Apr 19, 2017 at 9:42 PM, Erik E. Fair <fair-tuhs at netbsd.org>
> wrote:
> 
> > I have a memory of having seen a Zilog Z-80 (not Z8002 like the Onyx)
> > based Unix, possibly v6, at a vendor show or conference - perhaps the
> West
> > Coast Computer Faire (WCCF) in the late 1970s or early 1980s.
> >
> > I recall asking the people in the booth how they managed without an
> MMU,
> > and don't recall their answer. I do remember thinking that since Unix
> had
> > "grown up" with MMUs to stomp on obvious pointer mistakes, the
> software
> > ought to be relatively well-behaved ... you know: not trying to play
> "core
> > war" with itself?
> >
> > I searched the TUHS archives cursorily with Google to see if this has
> been
> > previously mentioned, but pretty much all Z80 CPU references have for
> its
> > use in "smart" I/O devices back in the day.
> >
> > Does anyone else remember this Z80 Unix and who did it? Or maybe that
> it
> > was a clone of some kind ... ?
> >
> > looking for a little history,
> >
> > Erik Fair
> >
>  



"I have supposed that he who buys a Method means to learn it." - Ferdinand Sor,
Method for Guitar

"A verbal contract isn't worth the paper it's written on." -- Samuel Goldwyn


From mwe012008 at gmx.net  Mon Apr 24 03:58:27 2017
From: mwe012008 at gmx.net (Michael Welle)
Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2017 19:58:27 +0200
Subject: [TUHS] Zilog Z80 Unix
In-Reply-To: <19663.1492652562@cesium.clock.org> (Erik E. Fair's message of
 "Wed, 19 Apr 2017 18:42:42 -0700")
References: <19663.1492652562@cesium.clock.org>
Message-ID: <87mvb76m64.fsf@luisa.c0t0d0s0.de>

Hello,

"Erik E. Fair" <fair-tuhs at netbsd.org> writes:

> I have a memory of having seen a Zilog Z-80 (not Z8002 like the Onyx)
> based Unix, possibly v6, at a vendor show or conference - perhaps the
> West Coast Computer Faire (WCCF) in the late 1970s or early 1980s.

as a side note: behind the iron curtain, in the GDR, they had Z80 based
system running Wega. But I doubt that they attended WCCF ;).

http://www.pofo.de/P8000/

Regards
hmw


From grog at lemis.com  Mon Apr 24 10:04:49 2017
From: grog at lemis.com (Greg 'groggy' Lehey)
Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2017 10:04:49 +1000
Subject: [TUHS] Zilog Z80 Unix
In-Reply-To: <20170423001300.GK15459@mcvoy.com>
References: <19663.1492652562@cesium.clock.org>
 <CAC20D2NAX1mqb-JQtcGZu-Pk8KUVb9Zb=kxVxe64_fCGtDQg1A@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.BSF.2.20.1704230653200.5445@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <20170423001300.GK15459@mcvoy.com>
Message-ID: <20170424000449.GD99987@eureka.lemis.com>

On Saturday, 22 April 2017 at 17:13:00 -0700, Larry McVoy wrote:
> On Sun, Apr 23, 2017 at 07:07:13AM +1000, Dave Horsfall wrote:
>> I remember BDS C for all the wrong reasons; I can only repeat a remark
>> from Henry Spencer about another alleged C compiler: "To be called a C
>> compiler, it ought to at least be able to compile C."  My Z-80 C compiler
>> was Hi-Tech C, which was full ANSI.
>
> I've never heard of Hi-Tech C but I am apparently more forgiving.  I
> spent many happy hours using BDS C.  It wasn't exactly standard, the
> standard I/O library was far from compat, but whatever, it was a C
> compiler on a CP/M system.  Pretty pleasant.

Yes, I think this is a reasonable viewpoint.  It was my first ever C
environment, and I really recognized how non-standard it was when I
got a standard C compiler and had to rethink (and rewrite).

Am I correct in remembering that this was the compiler that Craig
Finseth used for MINCE, my first exposure to (also non-standard)
Emacs?

Greg
--
Sent from my desktop computer.
Finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key.
See complete headers for address and phone numbers.
This message is digitally signed.  If your Microsoft mail program
reports problems, please read http://lemis.com/broken-MUA
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From lm at mcvoy.com  Mon Apr 24 10:40:31 2017
From: lm at mcvoy.com (Larry McVoy)
Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2017 17:40:31 -0700
Subject: [TUHS] Zilog Z80 Unix
In-Reply-To: <20170424000449.GD99987@eureka.lemis.com>
References: <19663.1492652562@cesium.clock.org>
 <CAC20D2NAX1mqb-JQtcGZu-Pk8KUVb9Zb=kxVxe64_fCGtDQg1A@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.BSF.2.20.1704230653200.5445@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <20170423001300.GK15459@mcvoy.com>
 <20170424000449.GD99987@eureka.lemis.com>
Message-ID: <20170424004031.GI24499@mcvoy.com>

On Mon, Apr 24, 2017 at 10:04:49AM +1000, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote:
> On Saturday, 22 April 2017 at 17:13:00 -0700, Larry McVoy wrote:
> > On Sun, Apr 23, 2017 at 07:07:13AM +1000, Dave Horsfall wrote:
> >> I remember BDS C for all the wrong reasons; I can only repeat a remark
> >> from Henry Spencer about another alleged C compiler: "To be called a C
> >> compiler, it ought to at least be able to compile C."  My Z-80 C compiler
> >> was Hi-Tech C, which was full ANSI.
> >
> > I've never heard of Hi-Tech C but I am apparently more forgiving.  I
> > spent many happy hours using BDS C.  It wasn't exactly standard, the
> > standard I/O library was far from compat, but whatever, it was a C
> > compiler on a CP/M system.  Pretty pleasant.
> 
> Yes, I think this is a reasonable viewpoint.  It was my first ever C
> environment, and I really recognized how non-standard it was when I
> got a standard C compiler and had to rethink (and rewrite).

Yeah, there were hiccups moving but it wasn't hard.

> Am I correct in remembering that this was the compiler that Craig
> Finseth used for MINCE, my first exposure to (also non-standard)
> Emacs?

No idea, never heard of MINCE.


From pepe at naleco.com  Tue Apr 25 07:42:14 2017
From: pepe at naleco.com (Josh Good)
Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2017 23:42:14 +0200
Subject: [TUHS] There is turmoil in Linux-land - When did rm first avoid
	going upwards?
Message-ID: <20170424214212.GA4966@naleco.com>

Hello all.

It's off-topic for this list, but there is turmoil in Linux-land. A bug
was discovered in systemd, whereby systemd re-implemented "rm"
functionality without following POSIX "rm" behaviour. This could kill a
system, as explained here: https://github.com/systemd/systemd/issues/5644

The reference POSIX "rm" behaviour is that "rm -rf .*" should NOT delete
the current and parent directories, as stated here:
http://pubs.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/9699919799/utilities/rm.html#tag_20_111_16

So, to get on-topic, I have a question for UNIX historians: when was it
first defined in the UNIX realm that "rm -r .*" should NOT delete the
current and parent directories? Would the command "cd /tmp ; rm -rf .*"
be able to kill a V6 or V7 UNIX system?

Regards,

-- 
Josh Good



From alec.muffett at gmail.com  Tue Apr 25 07:48:33 2017
From: alec.muffett at gmail.com (Alec Muffett)
Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2017 22:48:33 +0100
Subject: [TUHS] There is turmoil in Linux-land - When did rm first avoid
 going upwards?
In-Reply-To: <20170424214212.GA4966@naleco.com>
References: <20170424214212.GA4966@naleco.com>
Message-ID: <CAFWeb9K_173PJpm4Rzt_JMt56ZQxQ9Smsg5+kY_DiHfJyifxPw@mail.gmail.com>

Off-topic but funny: I have personally witnessed a 4.1BSD Vax where someone
accidentally did "mv . .." (or possibly "mv .. .") and it worked, with
resulting horrible mess.

    -a
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From krewat at kilonet.net  Tue Apr 25 07:59:33 2017
From: krewat at kilonet.net (Arthur Krewat)
Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2017 17:59:33 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] There is turmoil in Linux-land - When did rm first avoid
 going upwards?
In-Reply-To: <CAFWeb9K_173PJpm4Rzt_JMt56ZQxQ9Smsg5+kY_DiHfJyifxPw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20170424214212.GA4966@naleco.com>
 <CAFWeb9K_173PJpm4Rzt_JMt56ZQxQ9Smsg5+kY_DiHfJyifxPw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <f2f9e256-6c4f-fef6-7651-f3a3152c36c6@kilonet.net>

Having done exactly this with one of my own systems back in the early 
90's, I decided to test this out - I have some Solaris 8 VM's that I was 
able to clone easily and rip off the networking.

kilowatt# mkdir a
kilowatt# cd a
kilowatt# touch .a .b .c
kilowatt# rm -rf .*
kilowatt# ls -a
.   ..
kilowatt# rm -rf .*
rm of . is not allowed
rm of .. is not allowed

Now I need to go check some of the other VM's I have of early SVR4... I 
think it was either SunOS or an early SVR4 where this had catastrophic 
results :)





On 4/24/2017 5:48 PM, Alec Muffett wrote:
> Off-topic but funny: I have personally witnessed a 4.1BSD Vax where 
> someone accidentally did "mv . .." (or possibly "mv .. .") and it 
> worked, with resulting horrible mess.
>
>   -a
>

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From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Tue Apr 25 08:06:03 2017
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2017 18:06:03 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [TUHS] There is turmoil in Linux-land - When did rm first avoid
	going upwards?
Message-ID: <20170424220603.883CB18C0D0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > From: Josh Good

    > Would the command "cd /tmp ; rm -rf .*" be able to kill a V6 ... system?

Looking at the vanilla 'rm' source for V6, it cannot/does not delete
directories; one has to use the special 'rmdir' command for that. But,
somewhat to my surprise, it does support both the '-r' and '-f' flags, which I
thought were later. (Although not as 'stacked' flags, so you'd have to say
'rm -r -f'.)

So, assuming one did that, _and_ (important caveat!) _performed that command
as root_, it probably would empty out the entire directory tree. (I checked,
and "cd /tmp ; echo .*" evaluates to ". .." on V6.

	Noel


From khm at sciops.net  Tue Apr 25 08:10:06 2017
From: khm at sciops.net (Kurt H Maier)
Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2017 15:10:06 -0700
Subject: [TUHS] There is turmoil in Linux-land - When did rm first avoid
 going upwards?
In-Reply-To: <20170424214212.GA4966@naleco.com>
References: <20170424214212.GA4966@naleco.com>
Message-ID: <20170424221006.GA27654@wopr>

On Mon, Apr 24, 2017 at 11:42:14PM +0200, Josh Good wrote:
>
> So, to get on-topic, I have a question for UNIX historians: when was it
> first defined in the UNIX realm that "rm -r .*" should NOT delete the
> current and parent directories? Would the command "cd /tmp ; rm -rf .*"
> be able to kill a V6 or V7 UNIX system?
       
       
V7 has a dotname function it uses to protect against this.
       
khm



From pepe at naleco.com  Tue Apr 25 08:18:41 2017
From: pepe at naleco.com (Josh Good)
Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2017 00:18:41 +0200
Subject: [TUHS] There is turmoil in Linux-land - When did rm first avoid
	going upwards?
In-Reply-To: <20170424220603.883CB18C0D0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20170424220603.883CB18C0D0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <20170424221840.GB4966@naleco.com>

On 2017 Apr 24, 18:06, Noel Chiappa wrote:
>     > From: Josh Good
> 
>     > Would the command "cd /tmp ; rm -rf .*" be able to kill a V6 ... system?
> 
> So, assuming one did that, _and_ (important caveat!) _performed that command
> as root_, it probably would empty out the entire directory tree. (I checked,
> and "cd /tmp ; echo .*" evaluates to ". .." on V6.

Yeah, but does "rm" in V6 has a built-in "brake" to not process "." nor
"..", no matter what ("-f")?

-- 
Josh Good



From khm at sciops.net  Tue Apr 25 09:23:28 2017
From: khm at sciops.net (Kurt H Maier)
Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2017 16:23:28 -0700
Subject: [TUHS] There is turmoil in Linux-land - When did rm first avoid
 going upwards?
In-Reply-To: <20170424221840.GB4966@naleco.com>
References: <20170424220603.883CB18C0D0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <20170424221840.GB4966@naleco.com>
Message-ID: <20170424232328.GB27654@wopr>

On Tue, Apr 25, 2017 at 12:18:41AM +0200, Josh Good wrote:
> On 2017 Apr 24, 18:06, Noel Chiappa wrote:
> >     > From: Josh Good
> > 
> >     > Would the command "cd /tmp ; rm -rf .*" be able to kill a V6 ... system?
> > 
> > So, assuming one did that, _and_ (important caveat!) _performed that command
> > as root_, it probably would empty out the entire directory tree. (I checked,
> > and "cd /tmp ; echo .*" evaluates to ". .." on V6.
> 
> Yeah, but does "rm" in V6 has a built-in "brake" to not process "." nor
> "..", no matter what ("-f")?
> 
> -- 
> Josh Good
> 

rm in V6 outsources globbing to /etc/glob, which appears to report
no-match if the first character is .
       
https://github.com/dspinellis/unix-history-repo/blob/Research-V6-Snapshot-Development/usr/source/s1/glob.c#L151
       
khm


From lm at mcvoy.com  Tue Apr 25 09:59:30 2017
From: lm at mcvoy.com (Larry McVoy)
Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2017 16:59:30 -0700
Subject: [TUHS] was turmoil, moving to rm -rf /
In-Reply-To: <20170424232328.GB27654@wopr>
References: <20170424220603.883CB18C0D0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <20170424221840.GB4966@naleco.com> <20170424232328.GB27654@wopr>
Message-ID: <20170424235930.GB24499@mcvoy.com>

This is gonna seem like I'm tooting my own horn, and I am a little, but 
here's an rm -rf / story.

Clem will be amused because I was a junior or senior in college and a sys
admin for a Masscomp with a 40MB disk with 20 users.  And I did some version
of rm -rf /, realized part way through that I screwed up, and killed it.
But /bin and /dev were gone so putting things back together was hard.

But I did it and wrote up this little note for the people who came after
me, if I was stupid enough to do this someone else would, was my thinking.
You can get a sense of how scared I was in it if you read it carefully.
It was a very long night.

For an undergrad, I think it's not bad?  Maybe?  I dunno, I look at how 
much I needed to have understood to get the system back up, that's a lot
of reading, playing, experience.  Love that Geophysics department, they
pushed me.

And it was during my (brief) foray into the *roff -me macros (I went
-ms and never looked back).  Roff source on request to anyone who is
twisted enough to want it.

http://mcvoy.com/lm/masscomp-restore.pdf

Complete with all the typos.

--lm


From ron at ronnatalie.com  Tue Apr 25 10:06:28 2017
From: ron at ronnatalie.com (Ron Natalie)
Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2017 20:06:28 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] There is turmoil in Linux-land - When did rm first avoid
	going upwards?
In-Reply-To: <20170424232328.GB27654@wopr>
References: <20170424220603.883CB18C0D0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <20170424221840.GB4966@naleco.com> <20170424232328.GB27654@wopr>
Message-ID: <05b101d2bd57$cb86f6f0$6294e4d0$@ronnatalie.com>



> rm in V6 outsources globbing to /etc/glob, which appears to report
> no-match if the first character is .

Actually, it's the shell that calls glob.   Glob then invokes the command
(in this case rm).

Anyhow, that doesn't do what you think it does.    It ignores directory
entries that begin with '.' if the search string doesn't begin with ..

".*"  will indeed match ".."

Of course, the calamity depends on whether you have /tmp on it's own
filesystem.   V6 didn't go .. off the top of the filesystem, the root ..
just linked back to the inode 1 (the root itself).




From ron at ronnatalie.com  Tue Apr 25 10:13:47 2017
From: ron at ronnatalie.com (Ron Natalie)
Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2017 20:13:47 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] Runaway rm -r
Message-ID: <05b301d2bd58$cf338ec0$6d9aac40$@ronnatalie.com>

There was an incident at Pixar that a runaway rm ate most of the Toy Story 2
movie.   The only thing that saved them was an employee had their own copy
on a machine at home.

 

We never lost the whole disk through one of these, but we did have a guy
wipe out /etc/passwd one day.   Our password fields had an rfc-822ish user
name in the gcos field, so it looked

something like:



ron::51:50:Ronald Natalie <ron>:/sys1/ron:

 

Well, one of our users decided to grep for a user (alas while root) with the
command

   grep <howard> /etc/passwd

 

 

 

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From khm at sciops.net  Tue Apr 25 10:18:29 2017
From: khm at sciops.net (Kurt H Maier)
Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2017 17:18:29 -0700
Subject: [TUHS] There is turmoil in Linux-land - When did rm first avoid
 going upwards?
In-Reply-To: <05b101d2bd57$cb86f6f0$6294e4d0$@ronnatalie.com>
References: <20170424220603.883CB18C0D0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <20170424221840.GB4966@naleco.com> <20170424232328.GB27654@wopr>
 <05b101d2bd57$cb86f6f0$6294e4d0$@ronnatalie.com>
Message-ID: <20170425001829.GC27654@wopr>

On Mon, Apr 24, 2017 at 08:06:28PM -0400, Ron Natalie wrote:
> 
> 
> > rm in V6 outsources globbing to /etc/glob, which appears to report
> > no-match if the first character is .
> 
> Actually, it's the shell that calls glob.   Glob then invokes the command
> (in this case rm).
> 
> Anyhow, that doesn't do what you think it does.    It ignores directory
> entries that begin with '.' if the search string doesn't begin with ..
> 
> ".*"  will indeed match ".."
> 
> Of course, the calamity depends on whether you have /tmp on it's own
> filesystem.   V6 didn't go .. off the top of the filesystem, the root ..
> just linked back to the inode 1 (the root itself).
> 
> 

Thanks for correcting my hasty conclusions.  /usr/source/s2/rm.c has an
execl call in the rm() function, but I didn't dig further into the
calling mechanism.  

V7's /usr/src/cmd/rm.c definitely explicitly has a check for '..' and 
an error message dedicated to the task.  

So I think we can conclude that unix got this protection sometime
between V6 and V7 -- in other words, sometime in the late 1970s. 

And systemd is now catching up.  "Those who do not study unix" etc

khm



From rminnich at gmail.com  Tue Apr 25 10:22:44 2017
From: rminnich at gmail.com (ron minnich)
Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2017 00:22:44 +0000
Subject: [TUHS] There is turmoil in Linux-land - When did rm first avoid
 going upwards?
In-Reply-To: <20170425001829.GC27654@wopr>
References: <20170424220603.883CB18C0D0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <20170424221840.GB4966@naleco.com> <20170424232328.GB27654@wopr>
 <05b101d2bd57$cb86f6f0$6294e4d0$@ronnatalie.com> <20170425001829.GC27654@wopr>
Message-ID: <CAP6exYJrMZwFEMG0FP3W1vhUgoGC2y7RDaDajrh45xS=gNGwzA@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Apr 24, 2017 at 5:18 PM Kurt H Maier <khm at sciops.net> wrote:

>
>
> And systemd is now catching up.  "Those who do not study unix" etc
>
>

not catching up, as I read the discussion it is marked as "working as
intended".
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From khm at sciops.net  Tue Apr 25 10:24:57 2017
From: khm at sciops.net (Kurt H Maier)
Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2017 17:24:57 -0700
Subject: [TUHS] There is turmoil in Linux-land - When did rm first avoid
 going upwards?
In-Reply-To: <CAP6exYJrMZwFEMG0FP3W1vhUgoGC2y7RDaDajrh45xS=gNGwzA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20170424220603.883CB18C0D0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <20170424221840.GB4966@naleco.com> <20170424232328.GB27654@wopr>
 <05b101d2bd57$cb86f6f0$6294e4d0$@ronnatalie.com>
 <20170425001829.GC27654@wopr>
 <CAP6exYJrMZwFEMG0FP3W1vhUgoGC2y7RDaDajrh45xS=gNGwzA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20170425002457.GD27654@wopr>

On Tue, Apr 25, 2017 at 12:22:44AM +0000, ron minnich wrote:
> On Mon, Apr 24, 2017 at 5:18 PM Kurt H Maier <khm at sciops.net> wrote:
> 
> >
> >
> > And systemd is now catching up.  "Those who do not study unix" etc
> >
> >
> 
> not catching up, as I read the discussion it is marked as "working as
> intended".


They committed a patch to fix it.  The project maintainer declared it a
non-problem ex post facto and met with some derision... but by that
point they at least had a safeguard in place.

khm


From rminnich at gmail.com  Tue Apr 25 10:26:53 2017
From: rminnich at gmail.com (ron minnich)
Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2017 00:26:53 +0000
Subject: [TUHS] There is turmoil in Linux-land - When did rm first avoid
 going upwards?
In-Reply-To: <20170425002457.GD27654@wopr>
References: <20170424220603.883CB18C0D0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <20170424221840.GB4966@naleco.com> <20170424232328.GB27654@wopr>
 <05b101d2bd57$cb86f6f0$6294e4d0$@ronnatalie.com> <20170425001829.GC27654@wopr>
 <CAP6exYJrMZwFEMG0FP3W1vhUgoGC2y7RDaDajrh45xS=gNGwzA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20170425002457.GD27654@wopr>
Message-ID: <CAP6exYL0uyjjpKgic4DK93tC+1-68HRKFtT1cCDD-eKSE6YvuA@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Apr 24, 2017 at 5:24 PM Kurt H Maier <khm at sciops.net> wrote:

>
>
>
> They committed a patch to fix it.  The project maintainer declared it a
> non-problem ex post facto and met with some derision... but by that
> point they at least had a safeguard in place.
>
> khm
>

ah, good to know.
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From crossd at gmail.com  Tue Apr 25 10:44:43 2017
From: crossd at gmail.com (Dan Cross)
Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2017 20:44:43 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] was turmoil, moving to rm -rf /
In-Reply-To: <20170424235930.GB24499@mcvoy.com>
References: <20170424220603.883CB18C0D0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <20170424221840.GB4966@naleco.com> <20170424232328.GB27654@wopr>
 <20170424235930.GB24499@mcvoy.com>
Message-ID: <CAEoi9W5+E_dRa_zMGZR+Q_Rd7ZfzoAQNthgYXUtqFrdMUHY74g@mail.gmail.com>

Am I the only one who mentally says, "f*ck recursively" whenever I type,
"rm -fr" ? (f*ck being fsck, of course.)

On Mon, Apr 24, 2017 at 7:59 PM, Larry McVoy <lm at mcvoy.com> wrote:

> This is gonna seem like I'm tooting my own horn, and I am a little, but
> here's an rm -rf / story.
>
> Clem will be amused because I was a junior or senior in college and a sys
> admin for a Masscomp with a 40MB disk with 20 users.  And I did some
> version
> of rm -rf /, realized part way through that I screwed up, and killed it.
> But /bin and /dev were gone so putting things back together was hard.
>
> But I did it and wrote up this little note for the people who came after
> me, if I was stupid enough to do this someone else would, was my thinking.
> You can get a sense of how scared I was in it if you read it carefully.
> It was a very long night.
>
> For an undergrad, I think it's not bad?  Maybe?  I dunno, I look at how
> much I needed to have understood to get the system back up, that's a lot
> of reading, playing, experience.  Love that Geophysics department, they
> pushed me.
>
> And it was during my (brief) foray into the *roff -me macros (I went
> -ms and never looked back).  Roff source on request to anyone who is
> twisted enough to want it.
>
> http://mcvoy.com/lm/masscomp-restore.pdf
>
> Complete with all the typos.
>
> --lm
>
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From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Tue Apr 25 10:59:15 2017
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2017 20:59:15 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [TUHS] There is turmoil in Linux-land - When did rm first avoid
	going upwards?
Message-ID: <20170425005915.1249018C0D0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > From: "Ron Natalie"

    > Actually, it's the shell that calls glob.

Yes, in the initial expansion of the command line, but V6 'rm' also uses
'glob' internally; if the '-r' flag is given, and the current name in the
command argument list is a directory, viz.:

	if ((buf->mode & 060000) == 040000) {
		if (rflg) {
			...
			execl("/etc/glob", "glob", "rm", "-r", 
					    fflg? "-f": "*", fflg? "*": p, 0);
			printf("%s: no glob\n", arg);
			exit();
			}			

(where 'p' is 0 - no idea why the writer didn't just say '"*": 0, 0').

So "rm -f foo*", where the current directory contains file 'foo0 foo1 foo2'
and directoty 'foobar', and directory 'foobar' contains 'bar0 bar1 bar2', the
first instance of 'glob' (run by the shell) expands the 'foo0 foo1 foo2 foobar'
and the second instance (run by 'rm') expands the 'bar0 bar1 bar2'.


     > Glob then invokes the command (in this case rm).

I don't totally grok 'glob', but it is prepared to exec() either the command
name, /bin/{command} or /usr/bin/{command}; but if that file is not executable
it tries feeding it to the shell, on the assumption it must be a shell command
list:
	   
	execv(file, arg);
	if (errno==ENOEXEC) {
		arg[0] = file;
		*--arg = "/bin/sh";
		execv(*arg, arg);
		}

I guess (too lazy to look) that the execv() must return a different error
number if the file doesn't exist at all, so it only tries the shell if the
file existed, but wasn't executable.

	Noel


From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Tue Apr 25 11:34:03 2017
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2017 21:34:03 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [TUHS] There is turmoil in Linux-land - When did rm first avoid
	going upwards?
Message-ID: <20170425013403.694CE18C0C3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > From: Kurt H Maier

    > /etc/glob, which appears to report no-match if the first character is .

So I couldn't be bothered to work out how 'glob' worked exactly, so I just did
an experiment: I created a hacked version of 'rm' that had the directory
handling call to glob call 'echo' instead of 'rm'; it also printed 'tried'
instead of the actual unlink call, and printed 'cd' when it changed
directories.

I then set up two subsidiary directors, foo and .bar, with one containing
'.foo0 foo1' and the other '.bar0 bar1'.

Saying 'xrm -r -f .*' produced this:

  cd: .
  -r -f foo xrm xrm.c
  cd: ..
  -r -f foo xrm xrm.c
  cd: .bar
  -r -f bar1 

(This system has /tmp on a mounted file system, which is why the 'cd ..' was a
NOP. And a very good thing, too; at one point the phone rang, and it
distracted me, and I automatically typed 'rm', not 'xrm'... see below for what
happened. No biggie, there were only my test files there.  The output lines
are "-r -f foo xrm xrm.c" because that's what 'glob' passed to 'echo'.)

Saying 'xrm -r -f *' produced this:

  cd: foo
  -r -f foo1
  xrm: tried
  xrm.c: tried     

So apparently 'glob', when presented with '*' , ignores entries starting with
'.', but '.*' does not.


When I stupidly typed 'rm -r -f .*', it did more or les what I originally
thought it would: deleted all the files in all the directories (but only on
the /tmp device, because .. linked to the itself in /tmp, so it didn't escape
from that volume); leaving all the directories, but empty, except for the
files .foo0 and .bar0. So files and inferior directories with names starting
with '.' would have escaped, but nothing else.

	Noel


From jsteve at superglobalmegacorp.com  Tue Apr 25 11:50:05 2017
From: jsteve at superglobalmegacorp.com (Jason Stevens)
Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2017 09:50:05 +0800
Subject: [TUHS] Apple Darwin 0.1 and 0.3 sort of running on x86!
Message-ID: <0F0B9BFC06289346B88512B91E55670D2FFB@EXCHANGE>

I don't know if this is of any interest to anyone here, but 1999 is 18 years
ago, so maybe it counts as old?

Over on nextcomputers.org various users had found a backup of next68k.org
which included a wget of the old source

http://nextftp.onionmixer.net/next.68k.org/otto/html/pub/Darwin/PublicSource
/Darwin/index.html

So I found a copy of Rhapsody DR-2, the last binary version of this Mach
2.5+4.4BSD and after a day got a kernel to build.  Another day and I had it
interfacing to the driverkit to load drivers.

After a post on reddit someone gave me a link to some kdx p2p network, where
they had a Darwin 0.3 toast image.

using what I learned with Darwin 0.1 I got the 0.3 to build as well.

I uploaded a bunch of stuff here:
https://sourceforge.net/projects/aapl-darwin/

although it seems to not let me upload the toast images themselves.

I did slam together a minimal Darwin 0.3 qemu image that can sort-of boot to
single user mode.  It's not even slightly useful, but it does show that it
works.

https://sourceforge.net/projects/aapl-darwin/files/qemu-images/Darwin03_qemu
090_24_4_2017.7z/download



From dwalker at doomd.net  Tue Apr 25 13:05:03 2017
From: dwalker at doomd.net (Derrik Walker v2.0)
Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2017 23:05:03 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] Apple Darwin 0.1 and 0.3 sort of running on x86!
In-Reply-To: <0F0B9BFC06289346B88512B91E55670D2FFB@EXCHANGE>
References: <0F0B9BFC06289346B88512B91E55670D2FFB@EXCHANGE>
Message-ID: <75697b97-c9a2-d70c-197e-6954d8b05a03@doomd.net>

On 04/24/2017 09:50 PM, Jason Stevens wrote:
> I don't know if this is of any interest to anyone here, but 1999 is 18 years
> ago, so maybe it counts as old?
>
> Over on nextcomputers.org various users had found a backup of next68k.org
> which included a wget of the old source
>
> http://nextftp.onionmixer.net/next.68k.org/otto/html/pub/Darwin/PublicSource
> /Darwin/index.html
>
> So I found a copy of Rhapsody DR-2, the last binary version of this Mach
> 2.5+4.4BSD and after a day got a kernel to build.  Another day and I had it
> interfacing to the driverkit to load drivers.
>
> After a post on reddit someone gave me a link to some kdx p2p network, where
> they had a Darwin 0.3 toast image.
>
> using what I learned with Darwin 0.1 I got the 0.3 to build as well.
>
> I uploaded a bunch of stuff here:
> https://sourceforge.net/projects/aapl-darwin/
>
> although it seems to not let me upload the toast images themselves.
>
> I did slam together a minimal Darwin 0.3 qemu image that can sort-of boot to
> single user mode.  It's not even slightly useful, but it does show that it
> works.
>
> https://sourceforge.net/projects/aapl-darwin/files/qemu-images/Darwin03_qemu
> 090_24_4_2017.7z/download
>
Wow! Thanks. This is stuff I've not thought of in eons. I use to play 
around with early Darwin releases on my Power Mac I had at the time.

I use to have a website dedicated to things I figured out. I even helped 
the author of the Mac Perl book, Chris Nandor, get his Darwin box ( 
which didn't have GUI at the time ), on the internet.

- Derrik

-- 
-- Derrik

Derrik Walker v2.0, RHCE
dwalker at doomd.net

"Those UNIX guys, they think weird!" -- John C. Dvorak


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From tim.newsham at gmail.com  Tue Apr 25 13:16:23 2017
From: tim.newsham at gmail.com (Tim Newsham)
Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2017 17:16:23 -1000
Subject: [TUHS] 8th Edition Research Unix on SIMH
In-Reply-To: <CAGSRWbgFyF_=6HzT4xgKerGgC5B44HWQMTaK_LiDknyW2JfFEQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20170328205823.45fee6fe@neon.9fans.fr>
 <CAGSRWbgFyF_=6HzT4xgKerGgC5B44HWQMTaK_LiDknyW2JfFEQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAGSRWbj9BHLg6ou8czcYRfuDQtPLJaUHmcwA_0k9C74EmSw5Kg@mail.gmail.com>

I put together some scripts to install V8 from tape:
https://github.com/timnewsham/myv8

My goals are (roughly in order):
  - easy to use
  - documentary
  - reproducible

I also moved my earlier v6 installer to github for convenience:
https://github.com/timnewsham/myv6


On Tue, Mar 28, 2017 at 1:50 PM, Tim Newsham <tim.newsham at gmail.com> wrote:

> Would be great if someone scripted it up to make it dog-simple.
> Here's how I did it for v6: http://www.thenewsh.com/~newsham/myv6/README
> (I should do this, but I'm not sure I'll have time in the near future).
>
> On Tue, Mar 28, 2017 at 8:58 AM, David du Colombier <0intro at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Here are my notes to run 8th Edition Research Unix on SIMH.
>>
>> http://9legacy.org/9legacy/doc/simh/v8
>>
>> These notes are quite raw and unpolished, but should be
>> sufficient to get Unix running on SIMH.
>>
>> Fell free to use, improve and share.
>>
>> --
>> David du Colombier
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Tim Newsham | www.thenewsh.com/~newsham | @newshtwit |
> thenewsh.blogspot.com
>



-- 
Tim Newsham | www.thenewsh.com/~newsham | @newshtwit | thenewsh.blogspot.com
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From jsteve at superglobalmegacorp.com  Tue Apr 25 14:20:14 2017
From: jsteve at superglobalmegacorp.com (jsteve at superglobalmegacorp.com)
Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2017 12:20:14 +0800
Subject: [TUHS] Apple Darwin 0.1 and 0.3 sort of running on x86!
In-Reply-To: <75697b97-c9a2-d70c-197e-6954d8b05a03@doomd.net>
References: <75697b97-c9a2-d70c-197e-6954d8b05a03@doomd.net>
Message-ID: <b8c87dfc-fef4-49cc-9148-54c0020bfc30@SG2APC01FT006.eop-APC01.prod.protection.outlook.com>

My real goal is to update NeXTSTEP, but failing that updating Rhapsody and getting it booting on something modern is OK too.



Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: Derrik Walker v2.0
Sent: Tuesday, 25 April 2017 11:05 AM
To: tuhs at minnie.tuhs.org
Subject: Re: [TUHS] Apple Darwin 0.1 and 0.3 sort of running on x86!

Wow! Thanks. This is stuff I've not thought of in eons. I use to play 
around with early Darwin releases on my Power Mac I had at the time.

I use to have a website dedicated to things I figured out. I even helped

the author of the Mac Perl book, Chris Nandor, get his Darwin box ( 
which didn't have GUI at the time ), on the internet.

- Derrik

-- 
-- Derrik

Derrik Walker v2.0, RHCE
dwalker at doomd.net

"Those UNIX guys, they think weird!" -- John C. Dvorak



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From clemc at ccc.com  Wed Apr 26 00:02:26 2017
From: clemc at ccc.com (Clem Cole)
Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2017 10:02:26 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] was turmoil, moving to rm -rf /
In-Reply-To: <20170424235930.GB24499@mcvoy.com>
References: <20170424220603.883CB18C0D0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <20170424221840.GB4966@naleco.com> <20170424232328.GB27654@wopr>
 <20170424235930.GB24499@mcvoy.com>
Message-ID: <CAC20D2NNp6eCJZGxZyQcM84aZV4-6UXCj3mQtkqjDQrssPndFQ@mail.gmail.com>

Larry,

I had to laugh when I read that because what you don't know is it was part
of my old Unix wizards test which was left over from a the day when one of
our hackers (whom I think you would later get to know so I'll not name him)
accidentally typed: rm -rf . as root from his / on his workstation.

Because /bin/rmdir had been lost, he started getting errors when rmdir  was
forked.  So he hit  ^C, but he had already lost:  /bin, /dev, /etc, /lib,
most of /usr.  He was a developer in the networking group so he was working
on network code which we could not trust would not panic (in fact we
disconnected the node from the ethernet immediately just in case).   But we
did have pretty much everything in /usr/bin/[s-z]* -- that is we think it
was deleting files in /usr/bin when he stopped it.

We obviously had another working Masscomp box just like it. And of course
the shell was working on the machine that was in trouble.   We recovered
the system as it was.   Hint the key item is you have to start by putting
/dev back together and the solution to that problem has had been discussed
on this list.

Clem

On Mon, Apr 24, 2017 at 7:59 PM, Larry McVoy <lm at mcvoy.com> wrote:

> This is gonna seem like I'm tooting my own horn, and I am a little, but
> here's an rm -rf / story.
>
> Clem will be amused because I was a junior or senior in college and a sys
> admin for a Masscomp with a 40MB disk with 20 users.  And I did some
> version
> of rm -rf /, realized part way through that I screwed up, and killed it.
> But /bin and /dev were gone so putting things back together was hard.
>
> But I did it and wrote up this little note for the people who came after
> me, if I was stupid enough to do this someone else would, was my thinking.
> You can get a sense of how scared I was in it if you read it carefully.
> It was a very long night.
>
> For an undergrad, I think it's not bad?  Maybe?  I dunno, I look at how
> much I needed to have understood to get the system back up, that's a lot
> of reading, playing, experience.  Love that Geophysics department, they
> pushed me.
>
> And it was during my (brief) foray into the *roff -me macros (I went
> -ms and never looked back).  Roff source on request to anyone who is
> twisted enough to want it.
>
> http://mcvoy.com/lm/masscomp-restore.pdf
>
> Complete with all the typos.
>
> --lm
>
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From lm at mcvoy.com  Wed Apr 26 00:08:53 2017
From: lm at mcvoy.com (Larry McVoy)
Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2017 07:08:53 -0700
Subject: [TUHS] was turmoil, moving to rm -rf /
In-Reply-To: <CAC20D2NNp6eCJZGxZyQcM84aZV4-6UXCj3mQtkqjDQrssPndFQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20170424220603.883CB18C0D0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <20170424221840.GB4966@naleco.com> <20170424232328.GB27654@wopr>
 <20170424235930.GB24499@mcvoy.com>
 <CAC20D2NNp6eCJZGxZyQcM84aZV4-6UXCj3mQtkqjDQrssPndFQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20170425140853.GD24499@mcvoy.com>

Whoever was the genuis that put mknod in /etc has my gratitude.
We had other working Masscomp boxen but after I screwed up that
badly nobody would let me near them until I fixed mine :)

And you have to share who it was, I admitted I did it, I think 
it's just a thing many people do..... Once :)

On Tue, Apr 25, 2017 at 10:02:26AM -0400, Clem Cole wrote:
> Larry,
> 
> I had to laugh when I read that because what you don't know is it was part
> of my old Unix wizards test which was left over from a the day when one of
> our hackers (whom I think you would later get to know so I'll not name him)
> accidentally typed: rm -rf . as root from his / on his workstation.
> 
> Because /bin/rmdir had been lost, he started getting errors when rmdir  was
> forked.  So he hit  ^C, but he had already lost:  /bin, /dev, /etc, /lib,
> most of /usr.  He was a developer in the networking group so he was working
> on network code which we could not trust would not panic (in fact we
> disconnected the node from the ethernet immediately just in case).   But we
> did have pretty much everything in /usr/bin/[s-z]* -- that is we think it
> was deleting files in /usr/bin when he stopped it.
> 
> We obviously had another working Masscomp box just like it. And of course
> the shell was working on the machine that was in trouble.   We recovered
> the system as it was.   Hint the key item is you have to start by putting
> /dev back together and the solution to that problem has had been discussed
> on this list.
> 
> Clem
> 
> On Mon, Apr 24, 2017 at 7:59 PM, Larry McVoy <lm at mcvoy.com> wrote:
> 
> > This is gonna seem like I'm tooting my own horn, and I am a little, but
> > here's an rm -rf / story.
> >
> > Clem will be amused because I was a junior or senior in college and a sys
> > admin for a Masscomp with a 40MB disk with 20 users.  And I did some
> > version
> > of rm -rf /, realized part way through that I screwed up, and killed it.
> > But /bin and /dev were gone so putting things back together was hard.
> >
> > But I did it and wrote up this little note for the people who came after
> > me, if I was stupid enough to do this someone else would, was my thinking.
> > You can get a sense of how scared I was in it if you read it carefully.
> > It was a very long night.
> >
> > For an undergrad, I think it's not bad?  Maybe?  I dunno, I look at how
> > much I needed to have understood to get the system back up, that's a lot
> > of reading, playing, experience.  Love that Geophysics department, they
> > pushed me.
> >
> > And it was during my (brief) foray into the *roff -me macros (I went
> > -ms and never looked back).  Roff source on request to anyone who is
> > twisted enough to want it.
> >
> > http://mcvoy.com/lm/masscomp-restore.pdf
> >
> > Complete with all the typos.
> >
> > --lm
> >

-- 
---
Larry McVoy            	     lm at mcvoy.com             http://www.mcvoy.com/lm 


From elbingmiss at gmail.com  Wed Apr 26 00:12:12 2017
From: elbingmiss at gmail.com (=?UTF-8?Q?=C3=81lvaro_Jurado?=)
Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2017 16:12:12 +0200
Subject: [TUHS] was turmoil, moving to rm -rf /
In-Reply-To: <20170425140853.GD24499@mcvoy.com>
References: <20170424220603.883CB18C0D0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <20170424221840.GB4966@naleco.com> <20170424232328.GB27654@wopr>
 <20170424235930.GB24499@mcvoy.com>
 <CAC20D2NNp6eCJZGxZyQcM84aZV4-6UXCj3mQtkqjDQrssPndFQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20170425140853.GD24499@mcvoy.com>
Message-ID: <CAHJeKDWQfy=awib3p2roAiYervGsU3R36GwugKa=Xg-pWnk+Hg@mail.gmail.com>

I did it during my IBM days years ago. It was an AIX 4.2, I broke almost a
half of /usr and /bin /etc... ashamed :-(

Álvaro

2017-04-25 16:08 GMT+02:00 Larry McVoy <lm at mcvoy.com>:

> Whoever was the genuis that put mknod in /etc has my gratitude.
> We had other working Masscomp boxen but after I screwed up that
> badly nobody would let me near them until I fixed mine :)
>
> And you have to share who it was, I admitted I did it, I think
> it's just a thing many people do..... Once :)
>
> On Tue, Apr 25, 2017 at 10:02:26AM -0400, Clem Cole wrote:
> > Larry,
> >
> > I had to laugh when I read that because what you don't know is it was
> part
> > of my old Unix wizards test which was left over from a the day when one
> of
> > our hackers (whom I think you would later get to know so I'll not name
> him)
> > accidentally typed: rm -rf . as root from his / on his workstation.
> >
> > Because /bin/rmdir had been lost, he started getting errors when rmdir
> was
> > forked.  So he hit  ^C, but he had already lost:  /bin, /dev, /etc, /lib,
> > most of /usr.  He was a developer in the networking group so he was
> working
> > on network code which we could not trust would not panic (in fact we
> > disconnected the node from the ethernet immediately just in case).   But
> we
> > did have pretty much everything in /usr/bin/[s-z]* -- that is we think it
> > was deleting files in /usr/bin when he stopped it.
> >
> > We obviously had another working Masscomp box just like it. And of course
> > the shell was working on the machine that was in trouble.   We recovered
> > the system as it was.   Hint the key item is you have to start by putting
> > /dev back together and the solution to that problem has had been
> discussed
> > on this list.
> >
> > Clem
> >
> > On Mon, Apr 24, 2017 at 7:59 PM, Larry McVoy <lm at mcvoy.com> wrote:
> >
> > > This is gonna seem like I'm tooting my own horn, and I am a little, but
> > > here's an rm -rf / story.
> > >
> > > Clem will be amused because I was a junior or senior in college and a
> sys
> > > admin for a Masscomp with a 40MB disk with 20 users.  And I did some
> > > version
> > > of rm -rf /, realized part way through that I screwed up, and killed
> it.
> > > But /bin and /dev were gone so putting things back together was hard.
> > >
> > > But I did it and wrote up this little note for the people who came
> after
> > > me, if I was stupid enough to do this someone else would, was my
> thinking.
> > > You can get a sense of how scared I was in it if you read it carefully.
> > > It was a very long night.
> > >
> > > For an undergrad, I think it's not bad?  Maybe?  I dunno, I look at how
> > > much I needed to have understood to get the system back up, that's a
> lot
> > > of reading, playing, experience.  Love that Geophysics department, they
> > > pushed me.
> > >
> > > And it was during my (brief) foray into the *roff -me macros (I went
> > > -ms and never looked back).  Roff source on request to anyone who is
> > > twisted enough to want it.
> > >
> > > http://mcvoy.com/lm/masscomp-restore.pdf
> > >
> > > Complete with all the typos.
> > >
> > > --lm
> > >
>
> --
> ---
> Larry McVoy                  lm at mcvoy.com
> http://www.mcvoy.com/lm
>
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From clemc at ccc.com  Wed Apr 26 00:18:43 2017
From: clemc at ccc.com (Clem Cole)
Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2017 10:18:43 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] was turmoil, moving to rm -rf /
In-Reply-To: <20170425140853.GD24499@mcvoy.com>
References: <20170424220603.883CB18C0D0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <20170424221840.GB4966@naleco.com> <20170424232328.GB27654@wopr>
 <20170424235930.GB24499@mcvoy.com>
 <CAC20D2NNp6eCJZGxZyQcM84aZV4-6UXCj3mQtkqjDQrssPndFQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20170425140853.GD24499@mcvoy.com>
Message-ID: <CAC20D2OZknn5R=0HJm8C26hwWwboekEQMK_YHV73iVby_WVTkw@mail.gmail.com>

Problem was /etc has been burned too...  so the mknod command is off the
table.


On Tue, Apr 25, 2017 at 10:08 AM, Larry McVoy <lm at mcvoy.com> wrote:

> Whoever was the genuis that put mknod in /etc has my gratitude.
> We had other working Masscomp boxen but after I screwed up that
> badly nobody would let me near them until I fixed mine :)
>
> And you have to share who it was, I admitted I did it, I think
> it's just a thing many people do..... Once :)
>
> On Tue, Apr 25, 2017 at 10:02:26AM -0400, Clem Cole wrote:
> > Larry,
> >
> > I had to laugh when I read that because what you don't know is it was
> part
> > of my old Unix wizards test which was left over from a the day when one
> of
> > our hackers (whom I think you would later get to know so I'll not name
> him)
> > accidentally typed: rm -rf . as root from his / on his workstation.
> >
> > Because /bin/rmdir had been lost, he started getting errors when rmdir
> was
> > forked.  So he hit  ^C, but he had already lost:  /bin, /dev, /etc, /lib,
> > most of /usr.  He was a developer in the networking group so he was
> working
> > on network code which we could not trust would not panic (in fact we
> > disconnected the node from the ethernet immediately just in case).   But
> we
> > did have pretty much everything in /usr/bin/[s-z]* -- that is we think it
> > was deleting files in /usr/bin when he stopped it.
> >
> > We obviously had another working Masscomp box just like it. And of course
> > the shell was working on the machine that was in trouble.   We recovered
> > the system as it was.   Hint the key item is you have to start by putting
> > /dev back together and the solution to that problem has had been
> discussed
> > on this list.
> >
> > Clem
> >
> > On Mon, Apr 24, 2017 at 7:59 PM, Larry McVoy <lm at mcvoy.com> wrote:
> >
> > > This is gonna seem like I'm tooting my own horn, and I am a little, but
> > > here's an rm -rf / story.
> > >
> > > Clem will be amused because I was a junior or senior in college and a
> sys
> > > admin for a Masscomp with a 40MB disk with 20 users.  And I did some
> > > version
> > > of rm -rf /, realized part way through that I screwed up, and killed
> it.
> > > But /bin and /dev were gone so putting things back together was hard.
> > >
> > > But I did it and wrote up this little note for the people who came
> after
> > > me, if I was stupid enough to do this someone else would, was my
> thinking.
> > > You can get a sense of how scared I was in it if you read it carefully.
> > > It was a very long night.
> > >
> > > For an undergrad, I think it's not bad?  Maybe?  I dunno, I look at how
> > > much I needed to have understood to get the system back up, that's a
> lot
> > > of reading, playing, experience.  Love that Geophysics department, they
> > > pushed me.
> > >
> > > And it was during my (brief) foray into the *roff -me macros (I went
> > > -ms and never looked back).  Roff source on request to anyone who is
> > > twisted enough to want it.
> > >
> > > http://mcvoy.com/lm/masscomp-restore.pdf
> > >
> > > Complete with all the typos.
> > >
> > > --lm
> > >
>
> --
> ---
> Larry McVoy                  lm at mcvoy.com
> http://www.mcvoy.com/lm
>
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From arnold at skeeve.com  Wed Apr 26 00:29:51 2017
From: arnold at skeeve.com (arnold at skeeve.com)
Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2017 08:29:51 -0600
Subject: [TUHS] was turmoil, moving to rm -rf /
In-Reply-To: <CAHJeKDWQfy=awib3p2roAiYervGsU3R36GwugKa=Xg-pWnk+Hg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20170424220603.883CB18C0D0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <20170424221840.GB4966@naleco.com> <20170424232328.GB27654@wopr>
 <20170424235930.GB24499@mcvoy.com>
 <CAC20D2NNp6eCJZGxZyQcM84aZV4-6UXCj3mQtkqjDQrssPndFQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20170425140853.GD24499@mcvoy.com>
 <CAHJeKDWQfy=awib3p2roAiYervGsU3R36GwugKa=Xg-pWnk+Hg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <201704251429.v3PETpPZ006116@freefriends.org>

I too, on a 4.1 BSD or 4.2 BSD vax 780 at Ga Tech.  I forget who helped
me put things back together.  IIRC I had blown away "only" /dev, so it
wasn't quite so bad.

But yes, it's something you only do once.  :-)

Arnold

Álvaro Jurado <elbingmiss at gmail.com> wrote:

> I did it during my IBM days years ago. It was an AIX 4.2, I broke almost a
> half of /usr and /bin /etc... ashamed :-(
>
> Álvaro
>
> 2017-04-25 16:08 GMT+02:00 Larry McVoy <lm at mcvoy.com>:
>
> > Whoever was the genuis that put mknod in /etc has my gratitude.
> > We had other working Masscomp boxen but after I screwed up that
> > badly nobody would let me near them until I fixed mine :)
> >
> > And you have to share who it was, I admitted I did it, I think
> > it's just a thing many people do..... Once :)
> >
> > On Tue, Apr 25, 2017 at 10:02:26AM -0400, Clem Cole wrote:
> > > Larry,
> > >
> > > I had to laugh when I read that because what you don't know is it was
> > part
> > > of my old Unix wizards test which was left over from a the day when one
> > of
> > > our hackers (whom I think you would later get to know so I'll not name
> > him)
> > > accidentally typed: rm -rf . as root from his / on his workstation.
> > >
> > > Because /bin/rmdir had been lost, he started getting errors when rmdir
> > was
> > > forked.  So he hit  ^C, but he had already lost:  /bin, /dev, /etc, /lib,
> > > most of /usr.  He was a developer in the networking group so he was
> > working
> > > on network code which we could not trust would not panic (in fact we
> > > disconnected the node from the ethernet immediately just in case).   But
> > we
> > > did have pretty much everything in /usr/bin/[s-z]* -- that is we think it
> > > was deleting files in /usr/bin when he stopped it.
> > >
> > > We obviously had another working Masscomp box just like it. And of course
> > > the shell was working on the machine that was in trouble.   We recovered
> > > the system as it was.   Hint the key item is you have to start by putting
> > > /dev back together and the solution to that problem has had been
> > discussed
> > > on this list.
> > >
> > > Clem
> > >
> > > On Mon, Apr 24, 2017 at 7:59 PM, Larry McVoy <lm at mcvoy.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > This is gonna seem like I'm tooting my own horn, and I am a little, but
> > > > here's an rm -rf / story.
> > > >
> > > > Clem will be amused because I was a junior or senior in college and a
> > sys
> > > > admin for a Masscomp with a 40MB disk with 20 users.  And I did some
> > > > version
> > > > of rm -rf /, realized part way through that I screwed up, and killed
> > it.
> > > > But /bin and /dev were gone so putting things back together was hard.
> > > >
> > > > But I did it and wrote up this little note for the people who came
> > after
> > > > me, if I was stupid enough to do this someone else would, was my
> > thinking.
> > > > You can get a sense of how scared I was in it if you read it carefully.
> > > > It was a very long night.
> > > >
> > > > For an undergrad, I think it's not bad?  Maybe?  I dunno, I look at how
> > > > much I needed to have understood to get the system back up, that's a
> > lot
> > > > of reading, playing, experience.  Love that Geophysics department, they
> > > > pushed me.
> > > >
> > > > And it was during my (brief) foray into the *roff -me macros (I went
> > > > -ms and never looked back).  Roff source on request to anyone who is
> > > > twisted enough to want it.
> > > >
> > > > http://mcvoy.com/lm/masscomp-restore.pdf
> > > >
> > > > Complete with all the typos.
> > > >
> > > > --lm
> > > >
> >
> > --
> > ---
> > Larry McVoy                  lm at mcvoy.com
> > http://www.mcvoy.com/lm
> >


From elbingmiss at gmail.com  Wed Apr 26 00:31:53 2017
From: elbingmiss at gmail.com (=?UTF-8?Q?=C3=81lvaro_Jurado?=)
Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2017 16:31:53 +0200
Subject: [TUHS] was turmoil, moving to rm -rf /
In-Reply-To: <201704251429.v3PETpPZ006116@freefriends.org>
References: <20170424220603.883CB18C0D0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <20170424221840.GB4966@naleco.com> <20170424232328.GB27654@wopr>
 <20170424235930.GB24499@mcvoy.com>
 <CAC20D2NNp6eCJZGxZyQcM84aZV4-6UXCj3mQtkqjDQrssPndFQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20170425140853.GD24499@mcvoy.com>
 <CAHJeKDWQfy=awib3p2roAiYervGsU3R36GwugKa=Xg-pWnk+Hg@mail.gmail.com>
 <201704251429.v3PETpPZ006116@freefriends.org>
Message-ID: <CAHJeKDXLezGCedd=6U2d=eVZRwpuMDDawma54+V6OsT6eLJDzA@mail.gmail.com>

My mstake was forgetting that "su -" is not "su". So I thought I was on the
right dir and...

Álvaro

2017-04-25 16:29 GMT+02:00 <arnold at skeeve.com>:

> I too, on a 4.1 BSD or 4.2 BSD vax 780 at Ga Tech.  I forget who helped
> me put things back together.  IIRC I had blown away "only" /dev, so it
> wasn't quite so bad.
>
> But yes, it's something you only do once.  :-)
>
> Arnold
>
> Álvaro Jurado <elbingmiss at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > I did it during my IBM days years ago. It was an AIX 4.2, I broke almost
> a
> > half of /usr and /bin /etc... ashamed :-(
> >
> > Álvaro
> >
> > 2017-04-25 16:08 GMT+02:00 Larry McVoy <lm at mcvoy.com>:
> >
> > > Whoever was the genuis that put mknod in /etc has my gratitude.
> > > We had other working Masscomp boxen but after I screwed up that
> > > badly nobody would let me near them until I fixed mine :)
> > >
> > > And you have to share who it was, I admitted I did it, I think
> > > it's just a thing many people do..... Once :)
> > >
> > > On Tue, Apr 25, 2017 at 10:02:26AM -0400, Clem Cole wrote:
> > > > Larry,
> > > >
> > > > I had to laugh when I read that because what you don't know is it was
> > > part
> > > > of my old Unix wizards test which was left over from a the day when
> one
> > > of
> > > > our hackers (whom I think you would later get to know so I'll not
> name
> > > him)
> > > > accidentally typed: rm -rf . as root from his / on his workstation.
> > > >
> > > > Because /bin/rmdir had been lost, he started getting errors when
> rmdir
> > > was
> > > > forked.  So he hit  ^C, but he had already lost:  /bin, /dev, /etc,
> /lib,
> > > > most of /usr.  He was a developer in the networking group so he was
> > > working
> > > > on network code which we could not trust would not panic (in fact we
> > > > disconnected the node from the ethernet immediately just in case).
>  But
> > > we
> > > > did have pretty much everything in /usr/bin/[s-z]* -- that is we
> think it
> > > > was deleting files in /usr/bin when he stopped it.
> > > >
> > > > We obviously had another working Masscomp box just like it. And of
> course
> > > > the shell was working on the machine that was in trouble.   We
> recovered
> > > > the system as it was.   Hint the key item is you have to start by
> putting
> > > > /dev back together and the solution to that problem has had been
> > > discussed
> > > > on this list.
> > > >
> > > > Clem
> > > >
> > > > On Mon, Apr 24, 2017 at 7:59 PM, Larry McVoy <lm at mcvoy.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > This is gonna seem like I'm tooting my own horn, and I am a
> little, but
> > > > > here's an rm -rf / story.
> > > > >
> > > > > Clem will be amused because I was a junior or senior in college
> and a
> > > sys
> > > > > admin for a Masscomp with a 40MB disk with 20 users.  And I did
> some
> > > > > version
> > > > > of rm -rf /, realized part way through that I screwed up, and
> killed
> > > it.
> > > > > But /bin and /dev were gone so putting things back together was
> hard.
> > > > >
> > > > > But I did it and wrote up this little note for the people who came
> > > after
> > > > > me, if I was stupid enough to do this someone else would, was my
> > > thinking.
> > > > > You can get a sense of how scared I was in it if you read it
> carefully.
> > > > > It was a very long night.
> > > > >
> > > > > For an undergrad, I think it's not bad?  Maybe?  I dunno, I look
> at how
> > > > > much I needed to have understood to get the system back up, that's
> a
> > > lot
> > > > > of reading, playing, experience.  Love that Geophysics department,
> they
> > > > > pushed me.
> > > > >
> > > > > And it was during my (brief) foray into the *roff -me macros (I
> went
> > > > > -ms and never looked back).  Roff source on request to anyone who
> is
> > > > > twisted enough to want it.
> > > > >
> > > > > http://mcvoy.com/lm/masscomp-restore.pdf
> > > > >
> > > > > Complete with all the typos.
> > > > >
> > > > > --lm
> > > > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > ---
> > > Larry McVoy                  lm at mcvoy.com
> > > http://www.mcvoy.com/lm
> > >
>
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From corey at lod.com  Wed Apr 26 00:19:05 2017
From: corey at lod.com (Corey Lindsly)
Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2017 07:19:05 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [TUHS] was turmoil, moving to rm -rf /
In-Reply-To: <CAC20D2NNp6eCJZGxZyQcM84aZV4-6UXCj3mQtkqjDQrssPndFQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20170425141905.8415140FB@lod.com>


> I had to laugh when I read that because what you don't know is it was part
> of my old Unix wizards test which was left over from a the day when one of
> our hackers (whom I think you would later get to know so I'll not name him)
> accidentally typed: rm -rf . as root from his / on his workstation.
> 
> Because /bin/rmdir had been lost, he started getting errors when rmdir  was
> forked.  So he hit  ^C, but he had already lost:  /bin, /dev, /etc, /lib,
> most of /usr.  He was a developer in the networking group so he was working
> on network code which we could not trust would not panic (in fact we
> disconnected the node from the ethernet immediately just in case).   But we
> did have pretty much everything in /usr/bin/[s-z]* -- that is we think it
> was deleting files in /usr/bin when he stopped it.

It was in a situation similar to this that I learned the blessed 
usefulness of echo * as a crude substitute for /bin/ls 

--corey



From david at kdbarto.org  Wed Apr 26 01:17:27 2017
From: david at kdbarto.org (David)
Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2017 08:17:27 -0700
Subject: [TUHS] was turmoil, moving to rm -rf /
In-Reply-To: <mailman.805.1493129956.3779.tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org>
References: <mailman.805.1493129956.3779.tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org>
Message-ID: <6172F49D-B7AA-4760-901B-0143A6513AD5@kdbarto.org>

Many years ago I was at Burroughs and they wanted to do Unix (4.1c) on a new machine. Fine. We all started on the project porting from a Vax. So far so good. Then a new PM came in and said that intel was the future and we needed to use their machines for the host of the port. And an intel rep brought in their little x86 box running some version of Unix (Xenix?, I didn’t go anywhere near the thing). My boss, who was running the Unix port project did the following:
Every Friday evening he would log into the intel box as root and run “/bin/rm -rf /“ from the console. Then turn off the console and walk away.
Monday morning found the box dead and the intel rep would be called to come and ‘fix’ his box.
This went on for about 4 weeks, and finally my boss asked the intel rep what was wrong with his machine.
The rep replied that this was ‘normal’ for the hardware/software and we would just have to “get used to it”.
The PM removed the intel box a couple of days later.

	David

> On Apr 25, 2017, at 7:19 AM, tuhs-request at minnie.tuhs.org wrote:
> 
> From: Larry McVoy <lm at mcvoy.com>
> To: Clem Cole <clemc at ccc.com>
> Cc: Larry McVoy <lm at mcvoy.com>, TUHS main list <tuhs at minnie.tuhs.org>
> Subject: Re: [TUHS] was turmoil, moving to rm -rf /
> Message-ID: <20170425140853.GD24499 at mcvoy.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
> 
> Whoever was the genuis that put mknod in /etc has my gratitude.
> We had other working Masscomp boxen but after I screwed up that
> badly nobody would let me near them until I fixed mine :)
> 
> And you have to share who it was, I admitted I did it, I think 
> it's just a thing many people do..... Once :)



From crossd at gmail.com  Wed Apr 26 01:28:21 2017
From: crossd at gmail.com (Dan Cross)
Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2017 11:28:21 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] was turmoil, moving to rm -rf /
In-Reply-To: <CAC20D2OZknn5R=0HJm8C26hwWwboekEQMK_YHV73iVby_WVTkw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20170424220603.883CB18C0D0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <20170424221840.GB4966@naleco.com> <20170424232328.GB27654@wopr>
 <20170424235930.GB24499@mcvoy.com>
 <CAC20D2NNp6eCJZGxZyQcM84aZV4-6UXCj3mQtkqjDQrssPndFQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20170425140853.GD24499@mcvoy.com>
 <CAC20D2OZknn5R=0HJm8C26hwWwboekEQMK_YHV73iVby_WVTkw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAEoi9W7_caF5y0ofR8xNU-y5aH2vLzEoC-xJZVDbHbwyHWj8jA@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Apr 25, 2017 at 10:18 AM, Clem Cole <clemc at ccc.com> wrote:

> Problem was /etc has been burned too...  so the mknod command is off the
> table.
>

Either boot into standalone media like some kind of miniroot (that
hopefully has a copy of mknod) or look for some kind of shell builtin?
E.g., if the shell provides some mechanism to make a raw system call, you
can do it. E.g., an escape hatch to syscall() or indir(). If a copy of
`mkdir` survived, then on older systems where directory creation was done
by calling mknod(), one might be able to modify `mkdir` enough to create
device file for a tape device to launch a restore off of. I thought some
systems came with a syscall(1) utility, but it does't seem to be current
anymore and I can't find any references to it so perhaps I'm misremembering.

I once messed up a NeXT machine by "mv"'ing the system shared libraries to
an unexpected path. Oops. I had to boot off the CD to fix it, but that's
child's play compared to some of the esoterica you guys are talking about.

        - Dan C.


On Tue, Apr 25, 2017 at 10:08 AM, Larry McVoy <lm at mcvoy.com> wrote:
>
>> Whoever was the genuis that put mknod in /etc has my gratitude.
>> We had other working Masscomp boxen but after I screwed up that
>> badly nobody would let me near them until I fixed mine :)
>>
>> And you have to share who it was, I admitted I did it, I think
>> it's just a thing many people do..... Once :)
>>
>> On Tue, Apr 25, 2017 at 10:02:26AM -0400, Clem Cole wrote:
>> > Larry,
>> >
>> > I had to laugh when I read that because what you don't know is it was
>> part
>> > of my old Unix wizards test which was left over from a the day when one
>> of
>> > our hackers (whom I think you would later get to know so I'll not name
>> him)
>> > accidentally typed: rm -rf . as root from his / on his workstation.
>> >
>> > Because /bin/rmdir had been lost, he started getting errors when rmdir
>> was
>> > forked.  So he hit  ^C, but he had already lost:  /bin, /dev, /etc,
>> /lib,
>> > most of /usr.  He was a developer in the networking group so he was
>> working
>> > on network code which we could not trust would not panic (in fact we
>> > disconnected the node from the ethernet immediately just in case).
>>  But we
>> > did have pretty much everything in /usr/bin/[s-z]* -- that is we think
>> it
>> > was deleting files in /usr/bin when he stopped it.
>> >
>> > We obviously had another working Masscomp box just like it. And of
>> course
>> > the shell was working on the machine that was in trouble.   We recovered
>> > the system as it was.   Hint the key item is you have to start by
>> putting
>> > /dev back together and the solution to that problem has had been
>> discussed
>> > on this list.
>> >
>> > Clem
>> >
>> > On Mon, Apr 24, 2017 at 7:59 PM, Larry McVoy <lm at mcvoy.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > > This is gonna seem like I'm tooting my own horn, and I am a little,
>> but
>> > > here's an rm -rf / story.
>> > >
>> > > Clem will be amused because I was a junior or senior in college and a
>> sys
>> > > admin for a Masscomp with a 40MB disk with 20 users.  And I did some
>> > > version
>> > > of rm -rf /, realized part way through that I screwed up, and killed
>> it.
>> > > But /bin and /dev were gone so putting things back together was hard.
>> > >
>> > > But I did it and wrote up this little note for the people who came
>> after
>> > > me, if I was stupid enough to do this someone else would, was my
>> thinking.
>> > > You can get a sense of how scared I was in it if you read it
>> carefully.
>> > > It was a very long night.
>> > >
>> > > For an undergrad, I think it's not bad?  Maybe?  I dunno, I look at
>> how
>> > > much I needed to have understood to get the system back up, that's a
>> lot
>> > > of reading, playing, experience.  Love that Geophysics department,
>> they
>> > > pushed me.
>> > >
>> > > And it was during my (brief) foray into the *roff -me macros (I went
>> > > -ms and never looked back).  Roff source on request to anyone who is
>> > > twisted enough to want it.
>> > >
>> > > http://mcvoy.com/lm/masscomp-restore.pdf
>> > >
>> > > Complete with all the typos.
>> > >
>> > > --lm
>> > >
>>
>> --
>> ---
>> Larry McVoy                  lm at mcvoy.com
>> http://www.mcvoy.com/lm
>>
>
>
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From pete at dunnington.plus.com  Wed Apr 26 02:28:02 2017
From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull)
Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2017 17:28:02 +0100
Subject: [TUHS] was turmoil, moving to rm -rf /
In-Reply-To: <CAHJeKDXLezGCedd=6U2d=eVZRwpuMDDawma54+V6OsT6eLJDzA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20170424220603.883CB18C0D0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <20170424221840.GB4966@naleco.com> <20170424232328.GB27654@wopr>
 <20170424235930.GB24499@mcvoy.com>
 <CAC20D2NNp6eCJZGxZyQcM84aZV4-6UXCj3mQtkqjDQrssPndFQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20170425140853.GD24499@mcvoy.com>
 <CAHJeKDWQfy=awib3p2roAiYervGsU3R36GwugKa=Xg-pWnk+Hg@mail.gmail.com>
 <201704251429.v3PETpPZ006116@freefriends.org>
 <CAHJeKDXLezGCedd=6U2d=eVZRwpuMDDawma54+V6OsT6eLJDzA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <f579b040-b66f-49ab-e8c9-c42791f6cabd@dunnington.plus.com>

On 25/04/2017 15:31, Álvaro Jurado wrote:
> My mstake was forgetting that "su -" is not "su". So I thought I was on
> the right dir and...

Not for quite the same reason, but on all my machines I've taken to 
creating a home directory for root that isn't / for the last couple of 
decades.

-- 
Pete
Pete Turnbull


From bakul at bitblocks.com  Wed Apr 26 03:56:34 2017
From: bakul at bitblocks.com (Bakul Shah)
Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2017 10:56:34 -0700
Subject: [TUHS] was turmoil, moving to rm -rf /
In-Reply-To: <CAEoi9W7_caF5y0ofR8xNU-y5aH2vLzEoC-xJZVDbHbwyHWj8jA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20170424220603.883CB18C0D0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <20170424221840.GB4966@naleco.com> <20170424232328.GB27654@wopr>
 <20170424235930.GB24499@mcvoy.com>
 <CAC20D2NNp6eCJZGxZyQcM84aZV4-6UXCj3mQtkqjDQrssPndFQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20170425140853.GD24499@mcvoy.com>
 <CAC20D2OZknn5R=0HJm8C26hwWwboekEQMK_YHV73iVby_WVTkw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEoi9W7_caF5y0ofR8xNU-y5aH2vLzEoC-xJZVDbHbwyHWj8jA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <A1DF590F-461C-47FE-8D0D-671CF3C17C3F@bitblocks.com>

I once had to rebuild the root directory using ROM based disk IO and memory peek and poke commands!  At this late date I don’t recall many details but at least the root block was trashed during some last minute testing. Unlikely it was “rm -rf / something” as that would’ve done far more damage.

The situation was this:
1. We had *one* working hardware system[1].
2. At that time we only had working floppy controller and driver[2].
3. Our devel system was a VAX running 4.1BSD. no support for the floppy drive so everything had to be downloaded over a 9600 serial link.
4. The backup floppy either didn’t exist or wasn’t readable.
5. We had custom stuff that was done for a show and not backed up anywhere.

Luckily, due to earlier debugging sessions I knew what the file system layout was — this was on a version 7 system, with 16 byte dir entries, 2 bytes inode #, followed by and 14 byte name. IIRC inode 0 was not used, inode 1 was used as a temp during fsck based recovery and inode 2 was for the real root. So I read in the root inode, found the disk address of its data block, read it in, using fixed up “.” and “..” and “/bin” entries — usually inode #3 was bin, wrote it back to the floppy and rebooted. I think the unix image was in /bin. On reboot fsck worked and reconnected all the lost directories, which were easy to figure out and rename.

The back story is that this happened on a Saturday just before the Fall Comdex 1981, where we were going to show our system for the first time and we had to take a working system to Las Vegas by Sunday[3]. We were able to fly out on time and the Comdex show was a success, with thousands of leads generated.

In terms of lessons, I don’t know what we learned. I guess it pays to be intimately familiar with the system as we were in an extreme bootstrap situation with very little working reliably. Seems often startups end up doing acrobatics without a net!

— bakul

[1]  Two actually, but the second was a wire wrapped prototype. This was at an early Unix workstation startup; our main app was “word processing”.

[2] Later we hooked up a Western Digital ST506 controller via parallel port and I was very happy when my disk driver could do 25 KB/s! No DMA so had to do programmed IO.

[3] Rob Warnock (whom some of you may know from his SGI days) was our very hands-on CTO, and he was/is great at debugging/problem solving. I don’t know why they waited for me rather than call Rob. a) I was a junior engineer as that my first job with C & Unix  (6 months at that time) and b) I had already worked about 80+ hours that week and gone home to sleep at 9AM on Saturday. May be Rob was smart enough to not answer his phone!

> On Apr 25, 2017, at 8:28 AM, Dan Cross <crossd at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> On Tue, Apr 25, 2017 at 10:18 AM, Clem Cole <clemc at ccc.com <mailto:clemc at ccc.com>> wrote:
> Problem was /etc has been burned too...  so the mknod command is off the table.
> 
> Either boot into standalone media like some kind of miniroot (that hopefully has a copy of mknod) or look for some kind of shell builtin? E.g., if the shell provides some mechanism to make a raw system call, you can do it. E.g., an escape hatch to syscall() or indir(). If a copy of `mkdir` survived, then on older systems where directory creation was done by calling mknod(), one might be able to modify `mkdir` enough to create device file for a tape device to launch a restore off of. I thought some systems came with a syscall(1) utility, but it does't seem to be current anymore and I can't find any references to it so perhaps I'm misremembering.
> 
> I once messed up a NeXT machine by "mv"'ing the system shared libraries to an unexpected path. Oops. I had to boot off the CD to fix it, but that's child's play compared to some of the esoterica you guys are talking about.
> 
>         - Dan C.
> 
> 
> On Tue, Apr 25, 2017 at 10:08 AM, Larry McVoy <lm at mcvoy.com <mailto:lm at mcvoy.com>> wrote:
> Whoever was the genuis that put mknod in /etc has my gratitude.
> We had other working Masscomp boxen but after I screwed up that
> badly nobody would let me near them until I fixed mine :)
> 
> And you have to share who it was, I admitted I did it, I think
> it's just a thing many people do..... Once :)
> 
> On Tue, Apr 25, 2017 at 10:02:26AM -0400, Clem Cole wrote:
> > Larry,
> >
> > I had to laugh when I read that because what you don't know is it was part
> > of my old Unix wizards test which was left over from a the day when one of
> > our hackers (whom I think you would later get to know so I'll not name him)
> > accidentally typed: rm -rf . as root from his / on his workstation.
> >
> > Because /bin/rmdir had been lost, he started getting errors when rmdir  was
> > forked.  So he hit  ^C, but he had already lost:  /bin, /dev, /etc, /lib,
> > most of /usr.  He was a developer in the networking group so he was working
> > on network code which we could not trust would not panic (in fact we
> > disconnected the node from the ethernet immediately just in case).   But we
> > did have pretty much everything in /usr/bin/[s-z]* -- that is we think it
> > was deleting files in /usr/bin when he stopped it.
> >
> > We obviously had another working Masscomp box just like it. And of course
> > the shell was working on the machine that was in trouble.   We recovered
> > the system as it was.   Hint the key item is you have to start by putting
> > /dev back together and the solution to that problem has had been discussed
> > on this list.
> >
> > Clem
> >
> > On Mon, Apr 24, 2017 at 7:59 PM, Larry McVoy <lm at mcvoy.com <mailto:lm at mcvoy.com>> wrote:
> >
> > > This is gonna seem like I'm tooting my own horn, and I am a little, but
> > > here's an rm -rf / story.
> > >
> > > Clem will be amused because I was a junior or senior in college and a sys
> > > admin for a Masscomp with a 40MB disk with 20 users.  And I did some
> > > version
> > > of rm -rf /, realized part way through that I screwed up, and killed it.
> > > But /bin and /dev were gone so putting things back together was hard.
> > >
> > > But I did it and wrote up this little note for the people who came after
> > > me, if I was stupid enough to do this someone else would, was my thinking.
> > > You can get a sense of how scared I was in it if you read it carefully.
> > > It was a very long night.
> > >
> > > For an undergrad, I think it's not bad?  Maybe?  I dunno, I look at how
> > > much I needed to have understood to get the system back up, that's a lot
> > > of reading, playing, experience.  Love that Geophysics department, they
> > > pushed me.
> > >
> > > And it was during my (brief) foray into the *roff -me macros (I went
> > > -ms and never looked back).  Roff source on request to anyone who is
> > > twisted enough to want it.
> > >
> > > http://mcvoy.com/lm/masscomp-restore.pdf <http://mcvoy.com/lm/masscomp-restore.pdf>
> > >
> > > Complete with all the typos.
> > >
> > > --lm
> > >
> 
> --
> ---
> Larry McVoy                  lm at mcvoy.com <http://mcvoy.com/>             http://www.mcvoy.com/lm <http://www.mcvoy.com/lm>
> 
> 

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From 0intro at gmail.com  Wed Apr 26 06:34:29 2017
From: 0intro at gmail.com (David du Colombier)
Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2017 22:34:29 +0200
Subject: [TUHS] 8th Edition Research Unix on SIMH
In-Reply-To: <CAGSRWbj9BHLg6ou8czcYRfuDQtPLJaUHmcwA_0k9C74EmSw5Kg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20170328205823.45fee6fe@neon.9fans.fr>
 <CAGSRWbgFyF_=6HzT4xgKerGgC5B44HWQMTaK_LiDknyW2JfFEQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGSRWbj9BHLg6ou8czcYRfuDQtPLJaUHmcwA_0k9C74EmSw5Kg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20170425223429.44657ded@neon.9fans.fr>

> I put together some scripts to install V8 from tape:
> https://github.com/timnewsham/myv8
> 
> My goals are (roughly in order):
>   - easy to use
>   - documentary
>   - reproducible
> 
> I also moved my earlier v6 installer to github for convenience:
> https://github.com/timnewsham/myv6

Very nice work! Thanks.

-- 
David du Colombier


From tim.newsham at gmail.com  Wed Apr 26 13:05:25 2017
From: tim.newsham at gmail.com (Tim Newsham)
Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2017 17:05:25 -1000
Subject: [TUHS] 8th Edition Research Unix on SIMH
In-Reply-To: <CAHfSdrVACgFBYoPy8PrdpKTuxge6zhrEgB=HOmRWNhW9wL7hqw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20170328205823.45fee6fe@neon.9fans.fr>
 <20170330161620.14f47d53@neon.9fans.fr>
 <20170330203031.065891fd@neon.9fans.fr>
 <CAHfSdrVACgFBYoPy8PrdpKTuxge6zhrEgB=HOmRWNhW9wL7hqw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAGSRWbhr=Yn55-VESzEzeSEm2wmjJ_5FO_km+PM=5CRnpjPXfQ@mail.gmail.com>

I got the 9front blit sources to build and run in plan9port.  There's
some serious graphics issue right now causing a lot of flicker and
sometimes causing the graphics to not appear at all..  Anyone here
good with plan9port graphics ports?

https://github.com/timnewsham/blit


On Thu, Mar 30, 2017 at 7:05 PM, Michael Kerpan <mjkerpan at kerpan.com> wrote:

> Has the Blit emulator been ported to anything other than Plan 9 or
> does one need to set up a VM running Plan 9 to test out the graphics?
>
> Mike
>
> On Thu, Mar 30, 2017 at 2:30 PM, David du Colombier <0intro at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > This image is ready to be used with aiju's Blit emulator,
> > which is available as part of 9front.
> >
> > http://code.9front.org/hg/plan9front/file/tip/sys/src/games/blit
> >
> > This emulator works on most Plan 9 distributions. You just
> > have to copy the /sys/lib/blit and /sys/src/games/blit
> > directories to your system.
> >
> > With the v8.ini startup file provided, the console will be
> > listening on port 8888/tcp once SIMH has been started.
> >
> > You have to run the emulator and connect to the console:
> >
> > % cd /sys/src/games/blit
> > % mk install
> > % games/blit -t tcp!hostname!8888
> >
> > Once connected, enter your login and password.
> >
> > login: root
> >
> > Then, you can launch the mux window system:
> >
> > $ /usr/blit/bin/mux
> >
> > Once started, you can run any graphical program.
> > Binaries are located in the /usr/blit/bin directory.
> >
> > For example, here is jim text editor:
> >
> > http://9legacy.org/img/v8/jim_01.png
> >
> > --
> > David du Colombier
>



-- 
Tim Newsham | www.thenewsh.com/~newsham | @newshtwit | thenewsh.blogspot.com
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From b4 at gewt.net  Wed Apr 26 13:50:11 2017
From: b4 at gewt.net (Cory Smelosky)
Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2017 20:50:11 -0700
Subject: [TUHS] 8th Edition Research Unix on SIMH
In-Reply-To: <CAGSRWbj9BHLg6ou8czcYRfuDQtPLJaUHmcwA_0k9C74EmSw5Kg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20170328205823.45fee6fe@neon.9fans.fr>
 <CAGSRWbgFyF_=6HzT4xgKerGgC5B44HWQMTaK_LiDknyW2JfFEQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGSRWbj9BHLg6ou8czcYRfuDQtPLJaUHmcwA_0k9C74EmSw5Kg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1493178611.2693377.956432024.3DC45D21@webmail.messagingengine.com>

I've invited you to the TUHS github group so you can toss it there, too.

On Mon, Apr 24, 2017, at 20:16, Tim Newsham wrote:
> I put together some scripts to install V8 from tape:
> https://github.com/timnewsham/myv8
> 
> My goals are (roughly in order):
>   - easy to use
>   - documentary
>   - reproducible
> 
> I also moved my earlier v6 installer to github for convenience:
> https://github.com/timnewsham/myv6
> 
> 
> On Tue, Mar 28, 2017 at 1:50 PM, Tim Newsham
> <tim.newsham at gmail.com> wrote:>> Would be great if someone scripted it up to make it dog-simple.
>> Here's how I did it for v6:
>> http://www.thenewsh.com/~newsham/myv6/README>> (I should do this, but I'm not sure I'll have time in the near
>> future).>> 
>> On Tue, Mar 28, 2017 at 8:58 AM, David du Colombier
>> <0intro at gmail.com> wrote:>>> Here are my notes to run 8th Edition Research Unix on SIMH.
>>> 
>>> http://9legacy.org/9legacy/doc/simh/v8
>>> 
>>>  These notes are quite raw and unpolished, but should be
>>>  sufficient to get Unix running on SIMH.
>>> 
>>>  Fell free to use, improve and share.
>>> 
>>>  --
>>>  David du Colombier
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> -- 
>> Tim Newsham | www.thenewsh.com/~newsham | @newshtwit |
>> thenewsh.blogspot.com>> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Tim Newsham | www.thenewsh.com/~newsham | @newshtwit |
> thenewsh.blogspot.com
--
  Cory Smelosky
  b4 at gewt.net


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From noel.hunt at gmail.com  Wed Apr 26 15:53:41 2017
From: noel.hunt at gmail.com (Noel Hunt)
Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2017 15:53:41 +1000
Subject: [TUHS] 8th Edition Research Unix on SIMH
In-Reply-To: <CAGSRWbhr=Yn55-VESzEzeSEm2wmjJ_5FO_km+PM=5CRnpjPXfQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20170328205823.45fee6fe@neon.9fans.fr>
 <20170330161620.14f47d53@neon.9fans.fr>
 <20170330203031.065891fd@neon.9fans.fr>
 <CAHfSdrVACgFBYoPy8PrdpKTuxge6zhrEgB=HOmRWNhW9wL7hqw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGSRWbhr=Yn55-VESzEzeSEm2wmjJ_5FO_km+PM=5CRnpjPXfQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAGfO01xLEsO=6eubo7zVp2YowF_qT5zdHrOS0nFAO1XS8_GpeA@mail.gmail.com>

I have ported the original Blit pads to use the Plan9 graphics
primitives in the plan9port. I have also got a few of the jerq
test programs running under plan9port. Are you struggling with
how to translate 'bitblt' and 'rectf' into Plan9 equivalents?


On Wed, Apr 26, 2017 at 1:05 PM, Tim Newsham <tim.newsham at gmail.com> wrote:

> I got the 9front blit sources to build and run in plan9port.  There's
> some serious graphics issue right now causing a lot of flicker and
> sometimes causing the graphics to not appear at all..  Anyone here
> good with plan9port graphics ports?
>
> https://github.com/timnewsham/blit
>
>
> On Thu, Mar 30, 2017 at 7:05 PM, Michael Kerpan <mjkerpan at kerpan.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Has the Blit emulator been ported to anything other than Plan 9 or
>> does one need to set up a VM running Plan 9 to test out the graphics?
>>
>> Mike
>>
>> On Thu, Mar 30, 2017 at 2:30 PM, David du Colombier <0intro at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> > This image is ready to be used with aiju's Blit emulator,
>> > which is available as part of 9front.
>> >
>> > http://code.9front.org/hg/plan9front/file/tip/sys/src/games/blit
>> >
>> > This emulator works on most Plan 9 distributions. You just
>> > have to copy the /sys/lib/blit and /sys/src/games/blit
>> > directories to your system.
>> >
>> > With the v8.ini startup file provided, the console will be
>> > listening on port 8888/tcp once SIMH has been started.
>> >
>> > You have to run the emulator and connect to the console:
>> >
>> > % cd /sys/src/games/blit
>> > % mk install
>> > % games/blit -t tcp!hostname!8888
>> >
>> > Once connected, enter your login and password.
>> >
>> > login: root
>> >
>> > Then, you can launch the mux window system:
>> >
>> > $ /usr/blit/bin/mux
>> >
>> > Once started, you can run any graphical program.
>> > Binaries are located in the /usr/blit/bin directory.
>> >
>> > For example, here is jim text editor:
>> >
>> > http://9legacy.org/img/v8/jim_01.png
>> >
>> > --
>> > David du Colombier
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Tim Newsham | www.thenewsh.com/~newsham | @newshtwit |
> thenewsh.blogspot.com
>
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From tim.newsham at gmail.com  Wed Apr 26 16:10:29 2017
From: tim.newsham at gmail.com (Tim Newsham)
Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2017 20:10:29 -1000
Subject: [TUHS] 8th Edition Research Unix on SIMH
In-Reply-To: <CAGfO01xLEsO=6eubo7zVp2YowF_qT5zdHrOS0nFAO1XS8_GpeA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20170328205823.45fee6fe@neon.9fans.fr>
 <20170330161620.14f47d53@neon.9fans.fr>
 <20170330203031.065891fd@neon.9fans.fr>
 <CAHfSdrVACgFBYoPy8PrdpKTuxge6zhrEgB=HOmRWNhW9wL7hqw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGSRWbhr=Yn55-VESzEzeSEm2wmjJ_5FO_km+PM=5CRnpjPXfQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGfO01xLEsO=6eubo7zVp2YowF_qT5zdHrOS0nFAO1XS8_GpeA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAGSRWbhHWzbfAXnXL_9L+=Sgm1vqRKSTw4fURjosP7JMm6wgUw@mail.gmail.com>

I got it sorted.. the program was mistakenly thinking there
were constant window resizes.  the flicker is now solved.
There is still some issue where the keyboard processing
is sometimes getting stuck during startup...  when it
works, it seems to work well, but it usually fails on startup..
more debugging.


On Tue, Apr 25, 2017 at 7:53 PM, Noel Hunt <noel.hunt at gmail.com> wrote:

> I have ported the original Blit pads to use the Plan9 graphics
> primitives in the plan9port. I have also got a few of the jerq
> test programs running under plan9port. Are you struggling with
> how to translate 'bitblt' and 'rectf' into Plan9 equivalents?
>
>
> On Wed, Apr 26, 2017 at 1:05 PM, Tim Newsham <tim.newsham at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> I got the 9front blit sources to build and run in plan9port.  There's
>> some serious graphics issue right now causing a lot of flicker and
>> sometimes causing the graphics to not appear at all..  Anyone here
>> good with plan9port graphics ports?
>>
>> https://github.com/timnewsham/blit
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Mar 30, 2017 at 7:05 PM, Michael Kerpan <mjkerpan at kerpan.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Has the Blit emulator been ported to anything other than Plan 9 or
>>> does one need to set up a VM running Plan 9 to test out the graphics?
>>>
>>> Mike
>>>
>>> On Thu, Mar 30, 2017 at 2:30 PM, David du Colombier <0intro at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>> > This image is ready to be used with aiju's Blit emulator,
>>> > which is available as part of 9front.
>>> >
>>> > http://code.9front.org/hg/plan9front/file/tip/sys/src/games/blit
>>> >
>>> > This emulator works on most Plan 9 distributions. You just
>>> > have to copy the /sys/lib/blit and /sys/src/games/blit
>>> > directories to your system.
>>> >
>>> > With the v8.ini startup file provided, the console will be
>>> > listening on port 8888/tcp once SIMH has been started.
>>> >
>>> > You have to run the emulator and connect to the console:
>>> >
>>> > % cd /sys/src/games/blit
>>> > % mk install
>>> > % games/blit -t tcp!hostname!8888
>>> >
>>> > Once connected, enter your login and password.
>>> >
>>> > login: root
>>> >
>>> > Then, you can launch the mux window system:
>>> >
>>> > $ /usr/blit/bin/mux
>>> >
>>> > Once started, you can run any graphical program.
>>> > Binaries are located in the /usr/blit/bin directory.
>>> >
>>> > For example, here is jim text editor:
>>> >
>>> > http://9legacy.org/img/v8/jim_01.png
>>> >
>>> > --
>>> > David du Colombier
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Tim Newsham | www.thenewsh.com/~newsham | @newshtwit |
>> thenewsh.blogspot.com
>>
>
>


-- 
Tim Newsham | www.thenewsh.com/~newsham | @newshtwit | thenewsh.blogspot.com
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From tim.newsham at gmail.com  Thu Apr 27 08:45:17 2017
From: tim.newsham at gmail.com (Tim Newsham)
Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2017 12:45:17 -1000
Subject: [TUHS] 8th Edition Research Unix on SIMH
In-Reply-To: <20170330203031.065891fd@neon.9fans.fr>
References: <20170328205823.45fee6fe@neon.9fans.fr>
 <20170330161620.14f47d53@neon.9fans.fr>
 <20170330203031.065891fd@neon.9fans.fr>
Message-ID: <CAGSRWbiMYzGBCtksT7iK6CiFRU2A5O7dC0ZOSD9Tn+EOpHruJw@mail.gmail.com>

Do you know who wrote the /sys/src/games/blit emulator?
There's a piece of code in it that I had to comment out that
I dont understand and I want to ask about it:

        }
-       write(3, rom, sizeof(rom));
+    /* I dont know what this was for, but it spews garbage
+     * out telnet to the vax, causing it to hang.
+     */
+       //write(3, rom, sizeof(rom));
 }

I'm not sure what fd 3 is intended to be, but its the telnet socket in p9p.


On Thu, Mar 30, 2017 at 8:30 AM, David du Colombier <0intro at gmail.com>
wrote:

> This image is ready to be used with aiju's Blit emulator,
> which is available as part of 9front.
>
> http://code.9front.org/hg/plan9front/file/tip/sys/src/games/blit
>
> This emulator works on most Plan 9 distributions. You just
> have to copy the /sys/lib/blit and /sys/src/games/blit
> directories to your system.
>
> With the v8.ini startup file provided, the console will be
> listening on port 8888/tcp once SIMH has been started.
>
> You have to run the emulator and connect to the console:
>
> % cd /sys/src/games/blit
> % mk install
> % games/blit -t tcp!hostname!8888
>
> Once connected, enter your login and password.
>
> login: root
>
> Then, you can launch the mux window system:
>
> $ /usr/blit/bin/mux
>
> Once started, you can run any graphical program.
> Binaries are located in the /usr/blit/bin directory.
>
> For example, here is jim text editor:
>
> http://9legacy.org/img/v8/jim_01.png
>
> --
> David du Colombier
>



-- 
Tim Newsham | www.thenewsh.com/~newsham | @newshtwit | thenewsh.blogspot.com
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From krewat at kilonet.net  Thu Apr 27 09:02:44 2017
From: krewat at kilonet.net (Arthur Krewat)
Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2017 19:02:44 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] 8th Edition Research Unix on SIMH
In-Reply-To: <CAGSRWbiMYzGBCtksT7iK6CiFRU2A5O7dC0ZOSD9Tn+EOpHruJw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20170328205823.45fee6fe@neon.9fans.fr>
 <20170330161620.14f47d53@neon.9fans.fr>
 <20170330203031.065891fd@neon.9fans.fr>
 <CAGSRWbiMYzGBCtksT7iK6CiFRU2A5O7dC0ZOSD9Tn+EOpHruJw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <0ad702bb-c81e-9db1-8c8c-4be2fe48f267@kilonet.net>

Who hard-codes a file handle?

FD 3 would be the first FD opened after stdin, stdout, and stderr.



On 4/26/2017 6:45 PM, Tim Newsham wrote:
> Do you know who wrote the /sys/src/games/blit emulator?
> There's a piece of code in it that I had to comment out that
> I dont understand and I want to ask about it:
>
>         }
> -       write(3, rom, sizeof(rom));
> +    /* I dont know what this was for, but it spews garbage
> +     * out telnet to the vax, causing it to hang.
> +     */
> +       //write(3, rom, sizeof(rom));
>  }
>
> I'm not sure what fd 3 is intended to be, but its the telnet socket in 
> p9p.
>
>
> On Thu, Mar 30, 2017 at 8:30 AM, David du Colombier <0intro at gmail.com 
> <mailto:0intro at gmail.com>> wrote:
>
>     This image is ready to be used with aiju's Blit emulator,
>     which is available as part of 9front.
>
>     http://code.9front.org/hg/plan9front/file/tip/sys/src/games/blit
>     <http://code.9front.org/hg/plan9front/file/tip/sys/src/games/blit>
>
>     This emulator works on most Plan 9 distributions. You just
>     have to copy the /sys/lib/blit and /sys/src/games/blit
>     directories to your system.
>
>     With the v8.ini startup file provided, the console will be
>     listening on port 8888/tcp once SIMH has been started.
>
>     You have to run the emulator and connect to the console:
>
>     % cd /sys/src/games/blit
>     % mk install
>     % games/blit -t tcp!hostname!8888
>
>     Once connected, enter your login and password.
>
>     login: root
>
>     Then, you can launch the mux window system:
>
>     $ /usr/blit/bin/mux
>
>     Once started, you can run any graphical program.
>     Binaries are located in the /usr/blit/bin directory.
>
>     For example, here is jim text editor:
>
>     http://9legacy.org/img/v8/jim_01.png
>     <http://9legacy.org/img/v8/jim_01.png>
>
>     --
>     David du Colombier
>
>
>
>
> -- 
> Tim Newsham | www.thenewsh.com/~newsham 
> <http://www.thenewsh.com/%7Enewsham> | @newshtwit | 
> thenewsh.blogspot.com <http://thenewsh.blogspot.com>

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From dave at horsfall.org  Thu Apr 27 09:21:58 2017
From: dave at horsfall.org (Dave Horsfall)
Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2017 09:21:58 +1000 (EST)
Subject: [TUHS] 8th Edition Research Unix on SIMH
In-Reply-To: <0ad702bb-c81e-9db1-8c8c-4be2fe48f267@kilonet.net>
References: <20170328205823.45fee6fe@neon.9fans.fr>
 <20170330161620.14f47d53@neon.9fans.fr>
 <20170330203031.065891fd@neon.9fans.fr>
 <CAGSRWbiMYzGBCtksT7iK6CiFRU2A5O7dC0ZOSD9Tn+EOpHruJw@mail.gmail.com>
 <0ad702bb-c81e-9db1-8c8c-4be2fe48f267@kilonet.net>
Message-ID: <alpine.BSF.2.20.1704270920110.5445@aneurin.horsfall.org>

On Wed, 26 Apr 2017, Arthur Krewat wrote:

> Who hard-codes a file handle?

It was fairly common in the early days, when FDs were predictable.

> FD 3 would be the first FD opened after stdin, stdout, and stderr.

And given that it's writing something called "rom", it's probably a ROM 
image.

-- 
Dave Horsfall DTM (VK2KFU)  "Those who don't understand security will suffer."


From tim.newsham at gmail.com  Thu Apr 27 09:49:43 2017
From: tim.newsham at gmail.com (Tim Newsham)
Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2017 13:49:43 -1000
Subject: [TUHS] 8th Edition Research Unix on SIMH
In-Reply-To: <CAGSRWbhr=Yn55-VESzEzeSEm2wmjJ_5FO_km+PM=5CRnpjPXfQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20170328205823.45fee6fe@neon.9fans.fr>
 <20170330161620.14f47d53@neon.9fans.fr>
 <20170330203031.065891fd@neon.9fans.fr>
 <CAHfSdrVACgFBYoPy8PrdpKTuxge6zhrEgB=HOmRWNhW9wL7hqw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGSRWbhr=Yn55-VESzEzeSEm2wmjJ_5FO_km+PM=5CRnpjPXfQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAGSRWbh1OgSUwKrptb+dCf-u5UhyN3sx=71A6kkGpT8JQZy-2A@mail.gmail.com>

the plan9port of blit is now usable. (I also updated myv8 to include blit
supporting materials)

On Tue, Apr 25, 2017 at 5:05 PM, Tim Newsham <tim.newsham at gmail.com> wrote:

> I got the 9front blit sources to build and run in plan9port.  There's
> some serious graphics issue right now causing a lot of flicker and
> sometimes causing the graphics to not appear at all..  Anyone here
> good with plan9port graphics ports?
>
> https://github.com/timnewsham/blit
>
>
> On Thu, Mar 30, 2017 at 7:05 PM, Michael Kerpan <mjkerpan at kerpan.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Has the Blit emulator been ported to anything other than Plan 9 or
>> does one need to set up a VM running Plan 9 to test out the graphics?
>>
>> Mike
>>
>> On Thu, Mar 30, 2017 at 2:30 PM, David du Colombier <0intro at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> > This image is ready to be used with aiju's Blit emulator,
>> > which is available as part of 9front.
>> >
>> > http://code.9front.org/hg/plan9front/file/tip/sys/src/games/blit
>> >
>> > This emulator works on most Plan 9 distributions. You just
>> > have to copy the /sys/lib/blit and /sys/src/games/blit
>> > directories to your system.
>> >
>> > With the v8.ini startup file provided, the console will be
>> > listening on port 8888/tcp once SIMH has been started.
>> >
>> > You have to run the emulator and connect to the console:
>> >
>> > % cd /sys/src/games/blit
>> > % mk install
>> > % games/blit -t tcp!hostname!8888
>> >
>> > Once connected, enter your login and password.
>> >
>> > login: root
>> >
>> > Then, you can launch the mux window system:
>> >
>> > $ /usr/blit/bin/mux
>> >
>> > Once started, you can run any graphical program.
>> > Binaries are located in the /usr/blit/bin directory.
>> >
>> > For example, here is jim text editor:
>> >
>> > http://9legacy.org/img/v8/jim_01.png
>> >
>> > --
>> > David du Colombier
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Tim Newsham | www.thenewsh.com/~newsham | @newshtwit |
> thenewsh.blogspot.com
>



-- 
Tim Newsham | www.thenewsh.com/~newsham | @newshtwit | thenewsh.blogspot.com
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From khm at sciops.net  Thu Apr 27 09:07:12 2017
From: khm at sciops.net (Kurt H Maier)
Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2017 16:07:12 -0700
Subject: [TUHS] 8th Edition Research Unix on SIMH
In-Reply-To: <CAGSRWbiMYzGBCtksT7iK6CiFRU2A5O7dC0ZOSD9Tn+EOpHruJw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20170328205823.45fee6fe@neon.9fans.fr>
 <20170330161620.14f47d53@neon.9fans.fr>
 <20170330203031.065891fd@neon.9fans.fr>
 <CAGSRWbiMYzGBCtksT7iK6CiFRU2A5O7dC0ZOSD9Tn+EOpHruJw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20170426230712.GC55180@wopr>

On Wed, Apr 26, 2017 at 12:45:17PM -1000, Tim Newsham wrote:
> Do you know who wrote the /sys/src/games/blit emulator?
> There's a piece of code in it that I had to comment out that
> I dont understand and I want to ask about it:
> 
>         }
> -       write(3, rom, sizeof(rom));
> +    /* I dont know what this was for, but it spews garbage
> +     * out telnet to the vax, causing it to hang.
> +     */
> +       //write(3, rom, sizeof(rom));
>  }
> 
> I'm not sure what fd 3 is intended to be, but its the telnet socket in p9p.

aiju (not on this list) wrote games/blit.  You're working from a copy a
couple revisions behind;  that line was leftover debugging stuff removed
in revision 6842e7932c68 in the 9front tree, which is available at
http://code.9front.org/hg/plan9front


khm


From norman at oclsc.org  Thu Apr 27 11:04:37 2017
From: norman at oclsc.org (Norman Wilson)
Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2017 21:04:37 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [TUHS] 8th Edition Research Unix on SIMH
Message-ID: <20170427010437.AC0FC4422C@lignose.oclsc.org>

Tim Newsham:

  I'm not sure what fd 3 is intended to be, but its the telnet socket in p9p.

====

By the 10/e days, file descriptor 3 was /dev/tty.  There was
no more magic driver for /dev/tty; the special file still
existed, but it was a link to /dev/fd/3.

Similarly /dev/stdin stdout stderr were links to /dev/fd/0 1 2.

(I mean real links, not mere symbolic ones.)

I have a vague recollection that early on /dev/tty was fd/127
instead, but that changed somewhere in the middle 8/e era.

None of which says what Plan 9 did with that file descriptor,
though I suppose it could possibly have copied the /dev/tty
use.

And none of that excuses the hard-coded magic number file
descriptor, but hackers will be hackers.

Norman Wilson
Toronto ON


From khm at sciops.net  Thu Apr 27 11:26:57 2017
From: khm at sciops.net (Kurt H Maier)
Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2017 18:26:57 -0700
Subject: [TUHS] 8th Edition Research Unix on SIMH
In-Reply-To: <20170427010437.AC0FC4422C@lignose.oclsc.org>
References: <20170427010437.AC0FC4422C@lignose.oclsc.org>
Message-ID: <20170427012657.GA79531@wopr>

On Wed, Apr 26, 2017 at 09:04:37PM -0400, Norman Wilson wrote:
> 
> None of which says what Plan 9 did with that file descriptor,
> though I suppose it could possibly have copied the /dev/tty
> use.

Plan 9 doesn't have TTYs baked in.

> And none of that excuses the hard-coded magic number file
> descriptor, but hackers will be hackers.

Wasn't intended for commit.

khm


From ron at ronnatalie.com  Fri Apr 28 05:03:07 2017
From: ron at ronnatalie.com (Ron Natalie)
Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2017 15:03:07 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] directories going away.
Message-ID: <012501d2bf88$e8611660$b9234320$@ronnatalie.com>

The JHU version of the V6 kernel and the mount program were modified (or
should I say buggered) so that unprivileged users could mount user packs.
There were certain restrictions added as well:   no setuid on mounted
volumes etc.

The problem came up that people would mount them using relative paths and
the mtab wouldn't really show who was using the disk as a result.    I
suggested we just further bugger it by making the program chdir to '/dev'
first.   That way you wouldn't have to put /dev/ on the drive device and
you'd have to give an absolute path for the mount point (or at least one
relative to /dev).    I pointed out to my coworker that there was nothing in
/dev/ to mount on.    He started trying it.   Well the kernel issued errors
for trying to use a special file as a mount point.   He then tried "."
Due to a combination of bugs that worked!

The only problem, is how do you unmount it?   The /dev nodes had been
replaced by the root of directory of my user pack.    Oh well, go halt and
reboot.

There were supposed to be protections against this.   Mind you I did not
have root access at this point (just a lowly student operator), so we
decided to see where else we could mount.    Sure enough cd /etc/ and mount
on "." there.   We made up our own password file.   It had one account with
uid 0 and the name "Game Player" in the gcos field.   About this one of the
system managers calls and tells us to halt the machine as it'd had been
hacked.   I told him we were responsible and we'd undo what we did.

I think by this time Mike Muuss came out and gave me the "mount" source and
told me to fix it.




From scj at yaccman.com  Fri Apr 28 09:44:45 2017
From: scj at yaccman.com (Steve Johnson)
Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2017 16:44:45 -0700
Subject: [TUHS] was turmoil, moving to rm -rf /
In-Reply-To: <f579b040-b66f-49ab-e8c9-c42791f6cabd@dunnington.plus.com>
Message-ID: <b843e740c1abdf812d94b91a205167df15304a19@webmail.yaccman.com>

The worst "nuke the file system" experience I had was on the GE
mainframe.  Think big room, punched cards, etc.  And an operators'
console that typed on paper...

When you booted the system, the first message that came up said:

    INIT?

If you said 'y', it wiped out the file system.

After a very heated users' group meeting, they agreed to change the
message to

DO YOU WANT TO WIPE OUT THE FILE SYSTEM?

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From ron at ronnatalie.com  Fri Apr 28 09:54:58 2017
From: ron at ronnatalie.com (Ron Natalie)
Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2017 19:54:58 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] was turmoil, moving to rm -rf /
In-Reply-To: <b843e740c1abdf812d94b91a205167df15304a19@webmail.yaccman.com>
References: <f579b040-b66f-49ab-e8c9-c42791f6cabd@dunnington.plus.com>
 <b843e740c1abdf812d94b91a205167df15304a19@webmail.yaccman.com>
Message-ID: <015301d2bfb1$ae26ca20$0a745e60$@ronnatalie.com>

Exec 8 (the Univac Operating Systm) used to make you type the word “CATASTROPHIC” to proceed past a certain point in reiniting the system.

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From toby at telegraphics.com.au  Fri Apr 28 13:04:15 2017
From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain)
Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2017 23:04:15 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] was turmoil, moving to rm -rf /
In-Reply-To: <b843e740c1abdf812d94b91a205167df15304a19@webmail.yaccman.com>
References: <b843e740c1abdf812d94b91a205167df15304a19@webmail.yaccman.com>
Message-ID: <2b358586-4992-8769-bd54-2c9aeba6d8ba@telegraphics.com.au>

On 2017-04-27 7:44 PM, Steve Johnson wrote:
> The worst "nuke the file system" experience I had was on the GE
> mainframe.  Think big room, punched cards, etc.  And an operators'
> console that typed on paper...
>
> When you booted the system, the first message that came up said:
>
>     INIT?
>
> If you said 'y', it wiped out the file system.
>
> After a very heated users' group meeting, they agreed to change the
> message to
>
> DO YOU WANT TO WIPE OUT THE FILE SYSTEM?


Good to know UX has always been terrible :-)

--T


From mphuff at gmail.com  Fri Apr 28 13:33:26 2017
From: mphuff at gmail.com (Michael Huff)
Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2017 19:33:26 -0800
Subject: [TUHS] Installing Amix on FS-UAE, English Amiga Users's thread
Message-ID: <d39f90bf-36ad-b8d7-9365-1f47c4b938d9@gmail.com>

I'm this close to figuring out how to get netbsd to work on fs-uae with 
no prior amiga experience. Searching around the English Amiga Users's 
board for clues, I found a guide on downloading and installing Amix. 
Complete with amix download links. Haven't tried it myself -I'm still 
working on my bsd tangent. But for anyone interested:

http://eab.abime.net/showthread.php?t=86480




From erik at ono-sendai.com  Fri Apr 28 14:36:21 2017
From: erik at ono-sendai.com (Erik Berls)
Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2017 21:36:21 -0700
Subject: [TUHS] Installing Amix on FS-UAE, English Amiga Users's thread
In-Reply-To: <d39f90bf-36ad-b8d7-9365-1f47c4b938d9@gmail.com>
References: <d39f90bf-36ad-b8d7-9365-1f47c4b938d9@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAEFkZw892HWsKKZPy=Wt8hCfRkfh1kWa4VFzhfcO2mCYNvR9vA@mail.gmail.com>

Cool.  I know that some of the original postmasters are still lurking
about, even if they are no longer active on any of the public lists.

I’ve been in a little fight trying to get NetBSD/next68k up and
running on Previous. There are just enough things unsupported in the
emulator that make things difficult (eg: it fakes the network quite a
bit, so no net booting). A few delays have prevented me from imaging
drives off from either of the slabs or cubes I have. Once I figure
whats actually going on I’ll code and commit a base image builder.

I ended up on Previous because the XMAME support for the black
hardware wasn’t up to par, maybe it’s Amiga support is better?

-----Original Message-----
From: Michael Huff <mphuff at gmail.com>
Reply: Michael Huff <mphuff at gmail.com>
Date: April 27, 2017 at 8:33:47 PM
To: tuhs at minnie.tuhs.org <tuhs at minnie.tuhs.org>
Subject:  [TUHS] Installing Amix on FS-UAE, English Amiga Users's thread

> I'm this close to figuring out how to get netbsd to work on fs-uae with
> no prior amiga experience. Searching around the English Amiga Users's
> board for clues, I found a guide on downloading and installing Amix.
> Complete with amix download links. Haven't tried it myself -I'm still
> working on my bsd tangent. But for anyone interested:
>
> http://eab.abime.net/showthread.php?t=86480
>
>
>

--
Erik Berls


From arnold at skeeve.com  Fri Apr 28 15:19:01 2017
From: arnold at skeeve.com (arnold at skeeve.com)
Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2017 23:19:01 -0600
Subject: [TUHS] was turmoil, moving to rm -rf /
In-Reply-To: <2b358586-4992-8769-bd54-2c9aeba6d8ba@telegraphics.com.au>
References: <b843e740c1abdf812d94b91a205167df15304a19@webmail.yaccman.com>
 <2b358586-4992-8769-bd54-2c9aeba6d8ba@telegraphics.com.au>
Message-ID: <201704280519.v3S5J1Uo025558@freefriends.org>

Toby Thain <toby at telegraphics.com.au> wrote:

> On 2017-04-27 7:44 PM, Steve Johnson wrote:
> > The worst "nuke the file system" experience I had was on the GE
> > mainframe.  Think big room, punched cards, etc.  And an operators'
> > console that typed on paper...
> >
> > When you booted the system, the first message that came up said:
> >
> >     INIT?
> >
> > If you said 'y', it wiped out the file system.
> >
> > After a very heated users' group meeting, they agreed to change the
> > message to
> >
> > DO YOU WANT TO WIPE OUT THE FILE SYSTEM?
>
>
> Good to know UX has always been terrible :-)
>
> --T

Well golly gee whiz, the guy who wrote it knew what it was
going to do ...  ( :-)

Arnold


From john at nova.uucp  Sat Apr 29 00:48:36 2017
From: john at nova.uucp (John Floren)
Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2017 14:48:36 -0000 (UTC)
Subject: [TUHS] was turmoil, moving to rm -rf /
References: <f579b040-b66f-49ab-e8c9-c42791f6cabd@dunnington.plus.com>
 <b843e740c1abdf812d94b91a205167df15304a19@webmail.yaccman.com>
 <mailman.198.1493337336.3780.tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org>
Message-ID: <slrnog6li4.mao.john@nova.jfloren.net>

On 2017-04-27, Ron Natalie <ron at ronnatalie.com> wrote:
> This is a multipart message in MIME format.
>
> ------=_NextPart_000_0154_01D2BF90.27157840
> Content-Type: text/plain;
> 	charset="UTF-8"
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>
> Exec 8 (the Univac Operating Systm) used to make you type the word =
>=E2=80=9CCATASTROPHIC=E2=80=9D to proceed past a certain point in =
> reiniting the system.
>
>
> ------=_NextPart_000_0154_01D2BF90.27157840
> Content-Type: text/html;
> 	charset="UTF-8"
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>
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> xmlns:w=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" =
> xmlns:m=3D"http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/2004/12/omml" =
> xmlns=3D"http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40"><head><meta =
> http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dutf-8"><meta =
> name=3DGenerator content=3D"Microsoft Word 14 (filtered =
> medium)"><style><!--
> /* Font Definitions */
> @font-face
> 	{font-family:Helvetica;
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> @font-face
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> /* Style Definitions */
> p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal
> 	{margin:0in;
> 	margin-bottom:.0001pt;
> 	font-size:12.0pt;
> 	font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";}
> a:link, span.MsoHyperlink
> 	{mso-style-priority:99;
> 	color:blue;
> 	text-decoration:underline;}
> a:visited, span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed
> 	{mso-style-priority:99;
> 	color:purple;
> 	text-decoration:underline;}
> span.EmailStyle17
> 	{mso-style-type:personal-reply;
> 	font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
> 	color:#1F497D;}
> .MsoChpDefault
> 	{mso-style-type:export-only;
> 	font-size:10.0pt;}
> @page WordSection1
> 	{size:8.5in 11.0in;
> 	margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in;}
> div.WordSection1
> 	{page:WordSection1;}
> --></style><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>
><o:shapedefaults v:ext=3D"edit" spidmax=3D"1026" />
></xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>
><o:shapelayout v:ext=3D"edit">
><o:idmap v:ext=3D"edit" data=3D"1" />
></o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue =
> vlink=3Dpurple><div class=3DWordSection1><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
> style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
> D'>Exec 8 (the Univac Operating Systm) used to make you type the word =
>=E2=80=9CCATASTROPHIC=E2=80=9D to proceed past a certain point in =
> reiniting the system.</span><span =
> style=3D'font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p=
>></span></p></div></body></html>
> ------=_NextPart_000_0154_01D2BF90.27157840--
>

Ron, can you and others who are posting via email please take care to
send text-only emails? It's utterly unreadable to anyone using a newsreader
or plain old 'mail'. http://i.imgur.com/EJS5Okd.png

sorry for going off-topic...

john


From jsteve at superglobalmegacorp.com  Sat Apr 29 11:27:14 2017
From: jsteve at superglobalmegacorp.com (Jason Stevens)
Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2017 09:27:14 +0800
Subject: [TUHS] Installing Amix on FS-UAE, English Amiga Users's thread
In-Reply-To: <d39f90bf-36ad-b8d7-9365-1f47c4b938d9@gmail.com>
References: <d39f90bf-36ad-b8d7-9365-1f47c4b938d9@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <082AE1F9-CD22-46A9-AB09-AF88F50C2353@superglobalmegacorp.com>

I've installed it years ago on WinUAE, it was all exciting and Toni was implimenting the MMU well enough to run stuff like Enforcer, NetBSD and of course, AMIX.  The bummer is that tape image floating around is 2 user only.  So it's really not that practical of a SYSV.  A/UX on Shoebill is a more competent UNIX.

Funny how m68k Unix ruled at one point and now it's dropped off the face of the world

On April 28, 2017 11:33:26 AM GMT+08:00, Michael Huff <mphuff at gmail.com> wrote:
>I'm this close to figuring out how to get netbsd to work on fs-uae with
>
>no prior amiga experience. Searching around the English Amiga Users's 
>board for clues, I found a guide on downloading and installing Amix. 
>Complete with amix download links. Haven't tried it myself -I'm still 
>working on my bsd tangent. But for anyone interested:
>
>http://eab.abime.net/showthread.php?t=86480

-- 
Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
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